There's a letter in the HJ section of the Torygraph motoring section today about a motorist whose car was damaged by a police car that "had jumped a red light". The police "claim they had their lights and sirens on" and refuse to accept liability.
HJ's reply seems to miss the point, and blethers on about treating amber lights as red unless you can't stop, so is no help at all really. I assume HJ infers that "jumped a red light" means the police car set off or went through on red-and-amber, and that therefore the reader's friend must have gone through on amber - the letter doesn't say this, so I took the letter to mean simply that the police car had gone through on red.
The police say they were using lights and sirens; the reader's friend heard no sirens. Regardless of this, isn't it the responsibility of the driver of an emergency vehicle going through a red light to avoid a collision? Lights and sirens aren't a substitute for looking are they?
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Most Police cars have a black box recording what lights are in use at particular times - I suppose it can be corroborated one way or another from that...
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I don't know about liability, but I live near a complex junction with traffic lights which ambulances use to access a nearby A&E. I always check both ways even if I have a green light. A green only allows you to move "if safe to do so" and does not give absolute priority.
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>>A green only allows you to move "if safe to
>> do so" and does not give absolute priority.
>>
That's as maybe, and I do have a look when setting off, but can you imagine the chaos if we started treating green lights as give way signs? Round here you're likely to be rammed in the rear if you stop at a red!
An interesting defence comes to mind for anyone going through on red who has a collision - "It wasn't my fault, the other guy went through on green and he should have looked". Maybe that's the defence the police are running.
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>> That's as maybe, and I do have a look when setting off, but can you
>> imagine the chaos if we started treating green lights as give way signs? Round here
>> you're likely to be rammed in the rear if you stop at a red!
>>
Fortunately the junction requires a 90 degree turn in the "at risk" directions, so a check can be made at the low speed used. As you are at risk of being rammed when stopping for a red, I assume you live somewhere south of civilisation. :)
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>>As you are at risk of being rammed when stopping for a red, I assume you live somewhere south of civilisation. :)
Correct. Hertfordshire. My native habitat is Yorkshire, but I'd settle for the Black Isle or Northumberland. Maybe North Norfolk, or the Marches.
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I read that reply and could not understand why HJ had answered the question as it was asked.
I cannot believe that they could refuse liabilty under the circumstances described.
Perhaps in these cost conscious days they subcontract the answers to a subcontinent;)
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They can accept liability or not as they wish, does not prevent someone taking the case to court to attempt to recover damages from them. They cant decline that.
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IIRC there was a recent collision between a fire engine (I think) which ran red lights and crashed into and killed a male car driver who was deaf.
Tried googling it but can't find any reference to it.
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We live in ' Siren World ' here.
There's scarcely an hour when you can't hear one somewhere until about 1 in the morning.
It can be quite a problem, on hearing one, to actually pinpoint where it's coming from.
If you're stuck in the traffic, a common situation, you often can't see anything until it's upon you. So, you don't really know what to do or where to move to until the last few seconds of it appearing.
I have some experience of driving under blue lights. We were always taught thet we didn't have any right of way and it was better to stop than risk either killing someone or not getting to the incident at all due to a bump. My daughter, a paramedic, has the same rules to work to today.
Ted
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I work on A&E ambulances. The legal exemptions we have include treating a red traffic light as a give way. If we hit anything, or anything hits us as a result of us going through a red traffic light, we are held responsible and are subject to a disciplinary.
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...treating a red traffic light as a give way...
That was a phrase that came up during a court case I was at in which a copper was accused of death by careless driving.
The death occurred on an open stretch of road, but as background, the jury was given details of Cleveland Police's driving manual which told drivers using sirens they could treat a red light as a give way.
There was another phrase in the book which I liked, and which applies to all of us:
"Drive to arrive."
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Picking up on something Ted mentioned, the not really knowing where the sirens are coming from.
In the bad old days when most emegency vehicles used two tones (not quite as far back as bells) one could sense the direction much easier, and always knew whether he vehicle was approaching or leaving as the notes sounded different.
With these wailing sirens it can be hells own job with echoes from buildings to work out where the things is.
I too don't see how simply because the police car was blues and two's that nothing else seems to be up for consideration.
Every accident involving emergency vehicles should be judged on it's merits.
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...it can be hells own job to work out where the things is...
This is true for any noise in any circumstance, but worse in a car.
I read somewhere most of the noise from a siren enters a moving car through its roof.
This mixes with what sound comes through the windows and makes detecting the direction it's coming from well-nigh impossible.
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Even on foot or on the bike, without sounds attenuated by a tin box, it can be difficult to work out where siren is coming from. I can't find this question on HJ's bit of DT website. But from reading the above I wonder whether sub-editing has removed some clues about the culpability of the 'victim'?
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>>I wonder whether sub-editing has removed some clues about the culpability of the 'victim'?
I had the same thought - if the reader said "my friend went through on amber, so the lights must have been red for the police car" then HJ's answer would make slightly more sense, but only slightly.
Last edited by: Manatee on Sun 12 Sep 10 at 09:51
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I've seen a police car go through a red light three or four times.
Each time the police driver has slowed to a near standstill - you would have to be paying very little attention indeed not to see what was going on and have a crash.
Far more chance of being hit by the car they're chasing, if there is one, although I think most blue light jobs involve other types of emergencies.
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- you would have to be paying very little attention indeed not to see what was going on and have a crash.
Just so iffy. I've seen a lot of police cars running red lights, going down the wrong side of the road, etc., and I've never ever seen them doing it in a reckless manner.
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>> With these wailing sirens it can be hells own job with echoes from buildings to
>> work out where the things is.
I find this as well - Bells and two tones were easy to source, which is really silly because the new multitones were designed to be more noticeable and easier to source.
These days you have no idea if its in front, behind or to the side of you.
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...These days you have no idea if its in front, behind or to the side of you...
Most people have trouble with the direction, whatever the sound.
Some research here: www.ambulancevisibility.com/index.php?p=1_12
Quoting: "The study found that only 26% of the occupants of a closed car could determine from which direction the siren noise came from."
There's also stuff about how a modern sound-proofed car insulates the driver from any siren noise until the emergency vehicle is very close.
The conclusion is that high visibility is more important as a warning than a loud siren.
Last edited by: Iffy on Sun 12 Sep 10 at 10:35
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I chose to move out of the way of a lit up and loud police vehicle in London the other week. Without boring you with the details it involved me having to slightly enter the edge of a yellow box junction inappropriately but in my view perfectly safely to allow the cop car to get past.
Last week I got a £60 fine through the post for my trouble. Photo of my car and of course no sign of the police car. Thought about contesting it but somehow couldn't be bothered. Lesson learned. Next time they can wait.
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>> Next time they can wait.
You shouldn't pay Humph. Send a letter, send another one, make it clear that mechanical fine collecting may be all very well but there are some circumstances where it doesn't work and is unjust. If you are firm and explain yourself the system will make room for you in the end.
It's a pain in the fundament, but then what isn't?
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Already have paid AC. Simply couldn't be bothered to argue. I hate London. I just feel financially abused every time I go there. Vile place mostly.
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...Already have paid...
Humph,
Could you write a short letter to the chief constable/local council chief exec outlining your story?
It's probably not going to get your sixty quid back, but I think some point needs to be made to officialdom here.
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>> It's probably not going to get your sixty quid back, but I think some point
>> needs to be made to officialdom here.
>>
I agree with Iffy, we know you're a good guy Hump and this automated system of revenue collection needs better safeguards.
Oddly enough i use to love London driving, i detest the place as much meself now.
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contest it. all the way, if required involve the police. you have the time and place, insist the police provide details of who it was, summon them to court as a witness.
Last edited by: Zero on Sun 12 Sep 10 at 11:05
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The fines are charged by the Council and appealable to a genuinely independent adjudicator. Nowt to do with the police or the courts.
There are published decisions by the adjudicators making clear that the councils have to have regard to the 'bigger picture'. I can understand why H paid up (discounted rate and all that) A colleague did the same after twice being snapped in a bus lane into which she was forced by roadworks.
Rigid enforcement of these sort of regs does actually help the trafic flow - compare Woburn Place now with 10 yrs ago. The carphounds who run the scheme however need to be told when they get it wrong. SWMBO's cousin waas able to get one rescinded where the trailer ofhis truck was in the box; the camera could not show the kids who'd 'run the red man' on the adjoining pelicon crossing.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Sun 12 Sep 10 at 11:32
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What seems obvious to me is that if you have a window, or the sunroof, cracked open then the sound will appear to come from there - which is no use at all.
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Interesting article on sirens and their effective range here:
www.ambulancevisibility.com/index.php?p=1_12
Also: "Krovkov discovered that high intensity sound decreases the eye's sensitivity to red, attenuating the perception of orange. The blue response in the eye is increased and the green-yellow sensitivity remains unchanged."
!
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Do you guys not have the white noise sirens down south? They've been using them up here for ages, it's like night and day when they switch to it.
You're at a busy junction, you can hear the wail of the sirens but stuffed if you can identify which street it's coming down. Then they switch to white noise just before the junction and it's absolutely instant you turn your head to face it instinctively.
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The white noise concept was shown on Tomorrows World many moons ago. The notion was that it would replace the siren type. I thought it had been abandoned, but if you say its in use then there may be hope that it will be rolled out across the country. Which emergency vehicles are fitted with it?
If I remember correctly it was developed by boffins at Leeds University. Maybe its still on trial. If in common use up north I might remind my lot it still available. You usually find technology filters down to the metroploitan areas from other parts. We in London are usually the last.
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Struggling to find many references online.
Last one i heard was a fire engine in wishaw at the junction of Caledonian rd & Main St. (built up area, v busy, slim chance of seeing one coming up behind with the number of buses about etc. never mind coming up one of the other streets).
Maybe it's only the fire engines because i can recall an ambulance in glasgow city centre but it was using the warbler type siren at junctions.
Can't remember the last time i heard a police siren so not sure about them.
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>> whats a police car?
>>
Its a vehicle used to get to speed cameras, so they can be loaded with film.
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There's a thread on this subject running on another forum and I was surprised that a serving officer said any accident which ocurs when a Police car is in the area can be deemed a "polac".
He said his force even paid up when an old dear rear-ended another car that stopped suddenly for a Police car - funnily enough I saw just such an accident not long ago, but I doubt the Officer even realised what had happened.
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Our newer Merc ambulances have the hi-lo wail and the woo woo woo sirens. The older Fords have both these, plus either an electronic nee-naw or a fast (excuse the description) ca ca ca ca ca ca, which is very effective at junctions.
I think use of siren tones is key. I tend to change tone every 2 seconds or so when approaching traffic lights to try to help people notice and work out where I am.
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Police cars running red lights... - R.P.
