| Motoring Discussion > smart motorway legal challenge | Miscellaneous |
| Thread Author: sooty123 | Replies: 30 |
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New Sun 1 Sep 19 11:11
smart motorway legal challenge - sooty123
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www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/08/31/smart-motorways-risk-life-says-widow-suing-highways-england/ I wonder if this will have an effect on the future of this all lanes live running. I don't think highways England have put in as many cameras and systems as they said they would at the beginning. |
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New Sun 1 Sep 19 12:13
smart motorway legal challenge - Bromptonaut
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Hmmm. Ms Mercer's husband shouldn't have been put at that risk but isn't part of the issue providing enough public information so that people use 'Smart Motorways' properly? In this case Mr Mercer and the other driver stopped in a live lane to exchange details after a minor collision. If they'd taken thirty seconds to agree that they should drive on to next refuge and exchange details there the outcome might have been very different. There is also a huge issue with drivers ignoring the lane closed sign on the gantires. The hard shoulder was never exactly a place of safety. Our ex-neighbour who was an AA patrolman said they lost two or three people every year whilst attending to breakdowns on the hard shoulder. |
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New Sun 1 Sep 19 13:02
smart motorway legal challenge - sooty123
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I don't know if their cars were in such a state that they couldn't be moved. I'm not sure there needs to be public information, it's pretty obvious not go wondering about in a live lane. But some people won't be told. Be interesting to see if that stats on accidents in the mway that have got it vs the predictions. |
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New Sun 1 Sep 19 14:38
smart motorway legal challenge - Manatee
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Can't access the full story in the DT but this seems to be it. www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7415399/Plans-roll-smart-motorways-dealt-blow-four-people-die-M1-10-months.html The lesson here seems to be "get off the carriageway" which in general you should be able to do if your vehicle is in lane 1. Back in about 1992 I was shunted in lane 3 of the M1 on a dark, wet Friday night. Car in front rear-ended the one in front of him, I stopped, car behind me didn't. About a dozen involved altogether. I exchanged details with the one who hit me and cleared off, there wasn't much damage to the Audi 100 I was driving. I subsequently got a letter from the police asking why I had left the scene of an accident. Bit weird I thought, as they had clearly got my details anyway and if you call the police to a non-injury accident they always say they don't want to know. I replied to the effect that it was unsafe either to remain there, with traffic still flowing at full speed in lanes 1 & 2 and on the other side of the armco, and by the same token dangerous to cross two lanes of traffic to reach the hard shoulder. Never heard any more. |
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New Sun 1 Sep 19 15:48
smart motorway legal challenge - henry k
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>>The lesson here seems to be "get off the carriageway" which in general you should be able to do if your vehicle is in lane 1. Agreed. Lessons also need to be taught, during training .re continuing to drive a ( minor) damaged vehicle to a place of greater safety. IMO it is a tad more important than pointing to where this or that is in the engine bay, assuming you have an engine :-) Your life is more important than a shredded tyre. |
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New Mon 2 Sep 19 09:59
smart motorway legal challenge - Bromptonaut
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>> I don't know if their cars were in such a state that they couldn't be >> moved. My starting point was the description of a minor accident and swapping insurance details rather than summoning tow trucks from which I drew inference that vehicles were able to be moved. We don't know if there was a barrier/verge and somewhere safer than carriageway for them to do stuff whether it was exchange details or arrange removal of undriveable vehicles. You're obviously right that some people 'won't be told'. Not persuaded that's an argument for not looking if there should be action to inform/educate members of the public about correct drill in event of breakdown/accident under all lane running. The government page on Smart Motorway is here: www.gov.uk/guidance/how-to-drive-on-a-smart-motorway That really should have been included in the Highway Code by now and it's quite disturbing that it appears not to have been. It should however be relatively straightforward for DfT's media people to distil that lot into some snappy messages for a campaign of information films, ads and social media articles. The Telegraph article is really poor for what still aspires to be a quality paper. The opening paragraph suggests Mrs Mercer might sue for Corporate Manslaughter (CM). CM is a statutory criminal offence and would be prosecuted by the CPS (or possibly HSE). Not something she can instigate off her own bat. The threshold is high and needs consent of DPP. Detail is on CPS website tinyurl.com/y9da3ubb. Issues around design won't get near the definition of 'gross breach of duty of care' in that article. OTOH there might be a chink in Government's armour around monitoring arrangements and time taken to get protections in place for an incident. She can certainly try and sue for damages but primary target there will surely be the driver who ran into the stopped vehicles. Police are investigating Death by Dangerous Driving. My other gripe with quality of Telegraph report is use of 'pejorative parentheses' around DfT's feeling comment innapropriate while criminal investigation is ongoing and reference to their own stats. The first seems entirely reasonable; the last thing needed is an allegation that they've prejudiced an investigation. The stats either stand or fall om their own strength. |
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New Sun 1 Sep 19 16:05
smart motorway legal challenge - No FM2R
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Using the hard shoulder as a live line has never seemed like a good idea to me. Clearly [some>] people are not capable of working out what is or is not dangerous for themselves, so to deny them a hard shoulder to stop on seems fraught with danger. On the other hand, law cases like this irritate me. |
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New Sun 1 Sep 19 19:36
smart motorway legal challenge - Zero
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| Smart motorways are far from smart. They don't actually provide the claimed benefits, and have made the motorway more dangerous. |
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New Sun 1 Sep 19 20:27
smart motorway legal challenge - Bromptonaut
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>> Smart motorways are far from smart. They don't actually provide the claimed benefits, and have >> made the motorway more dangerous. What exactly are the claimed benefits and which metrics show they're missed? Anecdotally, based on my regular journeys, I'd say that the J16-19 sections of both M1 and M6 run much better since being converted to all lane running. The western M25 is another kettle of fish; too much local traffic. |
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New Sun 1 Sep 19 21:00
smart motorway legal challenge - sooty123
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Anecdotally, based on my regular journeys, I'd say that the J16-19 sections of both M1 >> and M6 run much better since being converted to all lane running. >> I use the 16-19 on the m1 reasonable often doesn't seem to carry a huge amount of traffic anyway. Was it that that much improved by all lane running? the section around MK will be interesting to see if it makes a difference when it's finished. |
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New Sun 1 Sep 19 22:12
smart motorway legal challenge - Bromptonaut
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>> I use the 16-19 on the m1 reasonable often doesn't seem to carry a huge >> amount of traffic anyway. Was it that that much improved by all lane running? the >> section around MK will be interesting to see if it makes a difference when it's >> finished. Lived just outside Northampton since 1990 when we moved from Watford. Before that I/we were in NW London. Family in Potteries and Leeds mean M1 has been part of my driving life from get go with own car in 1982. Obviously one's experience varies according to day of week, time of day and direction of travel etc. Problem pre ALR was unpredictable near stop concertina braking caused/made worse by non existent lane discipline. I guess it was OK on Friday nights in nineties when we were on Kirkstall Rd two hours after 19:00 brakes off at home. OTOH, even then, I'd habitually duck off onto A5 at J18 going south on Sunday evening. Jump forward to Uni runs from 2011 on and the stop/start for no reason was a complete 'mare. Gave up on M/Way and used A5/A426 to M1/20 or M6/1. Much smoother. In 2 years since ALR want live it actually works. Traffic moves smoothly, even if limited to 40 or 50 by the gantries. Pretty much same on M6 from Stoke North to J19. |
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New Sun 1 Sep 19 22:12
smart motorway legal challenge - Dave_
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>> 16-19 on the m1 ...doesn't seem to carry a huge amount of traffic anyway It was much worse as a 3 lane section. Northbound traffic joining from j15a (from the M40-A43) would take an age to accelerate up the hill, the effects of which would continue up to the next hill after Watford Gap. There are more large distribution parks in the Daventry and Crick areas which add to the HGV traffic; having four lanes means the lorries are less likely to impede the car traffic. |
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New Sun 1 Sep 19 22:14
smart motorway legal challenge - Bromptonaut
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>> It was much worse as a 3 lane section. Northbound traffic joining from j15a (from >> the M40-A43) would take an age to accelerate up the hill, the effects of which >> would continue up to the next hill after Watford Gap. There are more large distribution >> parks in the Daventry and Crick areas which add to the HGV traffic; having four >> lanes means the lorries are less likely to impede the car traffic. Another explanation. |
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New Sun 1 Sep 19 22:23
smart motorway legal challenge - sooty123
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| Fair enough I can only say what I see, those junctions look dead to me when I drive on them. Very quiet, it to me didn't look any different if there were three lanes or four (or even two at times) But it may well depend on when you travel. |
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New Sun 1 Sep 19 22:30
smart motorway legal challenge - Dave_
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>> But it may well depend on when you travel True enough. I used to be based in Leicester and would use this section northbound mid-late afternoon. It was always heavy but moving, now it's much more reliable and not a part of the journey I have to brace myself for. |
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New Mon 2 Sep 19 09:03
smart motorway legal challenge - sooty123
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>> >> But it may well depend on when you travel >> >> True enough. I used to be based in Leicester and would use this section northbound >> mid-late afternoon. It was always heavy but moving, now it's much more reliable and not >> a part of the journey I have to brace myself for. >> I use it at mid morning time or early afternoon. Although one of the reasons might be lack of local traffic as the junctions are quite far apart. Last edited by: sooty123 on Mon 2 Sep 19 at 09:04
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New Sun 1 Sep 19 22:48
smart motorway legal challenge - Zero
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>> Anecdotally, based on my regular journeys, I'd say that the J16-19 sections of both M1 >> and M6 run much better since being converted to all lane running. I would say your experience is too limited. My experience is that the M3 is not improved, the M25 is not improved and the M42 is not improved Given that the idea was to increase total traffic throughput, given the same real estate, id say its failed and increased risk. |
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New Mon 2 Sep 19 08:32
smart motorway legal challenge - Bromptonaut
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>> I would say your experience is too limited. My experience is that the M3 is >> not improved, the M25 is not improved and the M42 is not improved Given that >> the idea was to increase total traffic throughput, given the same real estate, id say >> its failed and increased risk. You're quite right about idea being to increase throughput without extensive/expensive additional real estate. To that extent the various iterations of Smart Motorway (and it's important to differentiate) are exercises in kicking the can down the road. Traffic goes on growing and eventually the extra capacity is fully utilised in peak and you're back to square one, Our experiences will of course vary but I'd cavil at your describing my experience of these schemes as limited. I assume when you speak of M3 you mean the section from M25 to Farnborough. That one I don't know but if it's not working probably a question of too little too late. The M25 is a big road. My main usage until latterly has been east side - M1 to Stansted or Dartford. Smart sections are 21-23 (M1 to A1M) and 27-30 (M11 to Dartford); controlled Motorway with variable speed limits but not ALR - earlier widening already left sections without hard shoulder. I'd say that it generally works well at smoothing flow and preventing concertina stoppages.. As with anything it breaks down if drivers don't use it properly and Achilles heel is failure to move out in advance of/obey lane closure signs. If dozens of muppets need to be waved out of closed lane by Traffic Officers attending an incident then everything stops. Recent trips to Heathrow and Gatwick and using M40/M25/M26 to avoid the Dartford clusterfark has put me on the western section. M40 to M23 is simply full up though variable speed limits smooth the flow to some extent. Only answer is a relief road or closing of some junctions to deter local traffic. M42 from M6 to M40 is original 'managed motorway' proof of concept. Still works for me with caveat that M6 to NEC/Airport struggles for capacity in peak. The others I use regularly are on M1 and M6. Already mentioned the 16-19 sections of both as much improved as is M1 round Derby/Nottingham and approaching Sheffield. M40 north of here and M5 S of M42 I never used pre smart so cannot judge. The elevated section of the M6 is transformed. Once it was a constant jam from Fort Dunlop to Bescot. Now I can rarely justify paying all but £7 for the toll road. Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Mon 2 Sep 19 at 08:34
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New Mon 2 Sep 19 09:57
smart motorway legal challenge - Zero
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>> Our experiences will of course vary but I'd cavil at your describing my experience of >> these schemes as limited. Limited in comparison to mine, where I use M25 from M1 to M23 and M3 from 2 to 6/7/8/9 on at least a twice weekly basis and have done since they morphed into out countryside. Ok I am not a motorway user to the extent of Humph, but I do 16k miles a year and have done for the last 20 years, and you dont do that without extensive motorway usage and experience. This was pre, during, post smart managed motorway. (the M25 is an excellent economic barometer, traffic level variations have almost always predicted boom and bust by about 12 months, Its been uncannily accurate in the time I have used it since it was joined up - even to the extent of telling which European countries are doing well and those that are not) >> Recent trips to Heathrow and Gatwick and using M40/M25/M26 to avoid the Dartford clusterfark has >> put me on the western section. M40 to M23 is simply full up though variable >> speed limits smooth the flow to some extent. Only answer is a relief road or >> closing of some junctions to deter local traffic. As you say, not fixable due to far too many inconsequential junctions, well it is fixable with adjacent feeder roads, won't happen tho given the money and influence that lives either side Closing junction 11, and Making J14 a Heathrow T4/T5 feeder road only would achieve much, and cut out the hop on hop off nature of M25 western section. >> The elevated section of the M6 is transformed. Once it was a constant jam from >> Fort Dunlop to Bescot. Now I can rarely justify paying all but £7 for the >> toll road. Its been transformed BY the toll road. I was using that section a lot pre and post toll, it was the toll that done it. >>I'd say that it generally works well at smoothing flow and preventing concertina stoppages.. My experience is it doesn't, It doesn't because the speed limits are not enforced by average speed cameras, experienced MWayers know which gantries work and which ones dont, and those that dont do the GP style fast after gantry and sudden slow at next gantry, without knowing which ones are enforced, causing the ripple effect till everyone is stymied. >>As with anything it breaks down if drivers don't use it properly and Achilles heel is failure to >>move out in advance of/obey lane closure signs. If dozens of muppets need to be waved out of >>closed lane by Traffic Officers attending an incident then everything stops. God this annoys me, I did two 70 mile motorway journeys yesterday, morning and evening. Both times a lane was blocked with move over signs then lane closed signs and both times they were universally ignored. . Now me I am an habitual very fast mway maniac, rarely if ever sticking to speed limits unless there is a camera to grab me, but I always obey the move over /lane closed sign in plenty of time, and those that dont cause chaos at the incident and could end up killing someone. Mind I blame the HA, because generally speaking the sign indications are woefully wrong or not updated*. I can tell you parts where I know there will be erroneous signage (the reoccurring every weekend debris in road /broken down car on M25 clacket lane area, ditto M3southbound at Camberley, A1M North of Alconberry (not sure if that's fixed, it was jammed on for at least 12 months). *Ironically the only ones that are accurate are the lane closed ones. Last edited by: Zero on Mon 2 Sep 19 at 10:02
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New Mon 2 Sep 19 11:29
smart motorway legal challenge - sooty123
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nd I blame the HA, because generally speaking the sign indications are woefully wrong or >> not updated*. I can tell you parts where I know there will be erroneous signage >> (the reoccurring every weekend debris in road /broken down car on M25 clacket lane area, >> ditto M3southbound at Camberley, A1M North of Alconberry (not sure if that's fixed, it was >> jammed on for at least 12 months). *Ironically the only ones that are accurate are >> the lane closed ones. >> I'd agree with that from what I've seen. The A1 around Doncaster was terrible no end of warnings of accidents, people in the road etc. Never saw anything it was warning of. |
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New Mon 2 Sep 19 00:40
smart motorway legal challenge - No FM2R
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| Increasing road capacity does not necessarily make for an easier drive for everybody, it typically means the same s***ty drive but for more people. |
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New Mon 2 Sep 19 14:14
smart motorway legal challenge - commerdriver
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I would disagree with that in one respect. Having been a regular user in days gone by of both the M25 south section and the M40 between Oxford and Warwick from before they opened through the first few years after they opened and in recent times. There was a real improvement when these first opened, verging on emptiness for a good few months, followed by a good few years of much better journeys then decaying int chaos and rush hour nasties in the last 10-15 years as the volume of cars built up |
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New Mon 2 Sep 19 14:45
smart motorway legal challenge - Bromptonaut
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>> There was a real improvement when these first opened, verging on emptiness for a good >> few months, followed by a good few years of much better journeys then decaying int >> chaos and rush hour nasties in the last 10-15 years as the volume of cars >> built up Extension of the M40 to Birmingham had a marked impact on the southern M1 too but traffic built up again over next few years. |
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New Mon 2 Sep 19 14:56
smart motorway legal challenge - Manatee
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| "Build it and they will come" seems to apply to road building generally, (the Humber Bridge being the exception that tests the rule). |
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New Mon 2 Sep 19 15:41
smart motorway legal challenge - Dulwich Estate II
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Unfortunately we need extra lane capacity because of moronic drivers having no lane discipline. I drive around 6,000 miles on French motorways each year (it cost a lot in tolls !), but with out fail the lane discipline is superb and on even the 2 lane stretches one can make very fast progress. |
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New Mon 2 Sep 19 15:49
smart motorway legal challenge - commerdriver
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France also is twice as big as the UK with a broadly similar population so motorways are likely to be half as busy. |
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New Tue 3 Sep 19 09:16
smart motorway legal challenge - Dulwich Estate II
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There's a small element of truth in the fact the autoroutes can be less congested on occasions due to less traffic, but I maintain it is lane discipline that UK lacks. Undertaking is unknown on the French autoroutes, the guy in front always, always, yes always moves over when he's completed his overtaking manoeuvre. Sometimes it even gets a bit silly with them popping in and out of the fast lane for every vehicle overtaken. I don't think I've done a single UK motorway journey in say the past 5 years without seeing undertaking going on because of some pr*t oblivious of what's going on around them. |
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New Tue 3 Sep 19 09:32
smart motorway legal challenge - Shiny
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| I think the Smart Motorways are terrible and I wish this lady well. They seem to be all disadvantage with none of the advantages they were 'sold' on. There seems to be so many issues such as broken down vehicles on the live lane, that the speed limit seems to be all-too-often 40-50MPH where it used to be 70MPH. The length of closures are so long, strecthing many miles it just seems constant slow limits and grinding to a stop as 70MPH traffic hits a sudden drop to 50 and 40MPH. The messages with often say REPORTS OF ANIMALS 40MPH but there are none. As soon as cleared another STRANDED VEHICLE 40MPH... I would like to see them reverted back to hard shoulder and just left in place for accidents and closures. |
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New Tue 3 Sep 19 09:45
smart motorway legal challenge - CGNorwich
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| Most French Autoroutes are two lane. Even in U.K. two lane carriageways are usually used properly. It is three lane carriageways where drivers sit, impervious to all those about them. Probably time to make undertaking on near side legal. |
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New Tue 3 Sep 19 09:58
smart motorway legal challenge - Zero
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>> Most French Autoroutes are two lane. Even in U.K. two lane carriageways are usually used >> properly. It is three lane carriageways where drivers sit, impervious to all those about them. >> Probably time to make undertaking on near side legal. It kind of is. In fact on Smart managed motorways and speed limited sections through roadworks its mandated. And when was the last time anyone got done for "undertaking"? Aggressive weaving, now thats a different ball game, but maintaining your speed if your lane is clear and the lane to your right isnt? And there are certain areas where the inside lane is barely useable, The A12 off the M25 for example, inside lane fit only for tractors the surface is so broken Last edited by: Zero on Tue 3 Sep 19 at 10:02
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New Tue 3 Sep 19 12:46
smart motorway legal challenge - Robin O'Reliant
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| Undertaking is not in itself illegal but could lead to a careless driving offence if it is deemed to have caused danger to other road users. |
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