|
Back in March I received a letter from Hounslow council and a 60 fine for entering a yellow box ,
|
|
I've never received a fine for something I didn'tt do, if that's what you mean. Not that that stops them being annoying.
|
It was outside a hospital between Syon Red and the M3 in Twickenham, I waited outside the yellow box and went to go through it when cars moved off, and there was a space for my car......until some git pulling out from the hospital and left me stranded. The photos they sent showed I waited, showed this idiot, and still wouldn’t accept it .
Wish they’d sent it as a video , rather than stills
|
|
You mean you appealed and you still had to pay?
|
Did you pay or are you still contesting it?
I got one last year for parking in a residents' bay in Camden that was inadequately differentiated from the adjacent pay/display bays. Won on appeal but had to go to the Tribunal to get it overturned.
|
|
Well done , if you’d lost the appeal , would you have had to pay double the Fine .....in my case it was £65 or 130 if not paid within 14 days , and IF it goes to tribunal and you win , it’s nothing but if you lose it’s 130 , I couldn’t afford to take that chance
|
>> Well done , if you’d lost the appeal , would you have had to pay
>> double the Fine .....in my case it was £65 or 130 if not paid within
>> 14 days , and IF it goes to tribunal and you win , it’s nothing
>> but if you lose it’s 130 , I couldn’t afford to take that chance
The fine is £130 discounted by 50% if you 'hold your hand up' early and accept that infringement was committed. The policy intention is to encourage those people to pay up and put it behind them rather than clogging up the appeals system with cases that have little or no chance of success. I don't see any intrinsic unfairness in that, it reflects practice with fixed penalties for speeding etc and wider criminal justice system where an early guilty plea gets a discount.
In my case I freely admit that if I'd looked harder I'd probably have spotted the sign on a lamp post showing that half the 'run' of apparently contiguous bays were residents rather than P&D. While I would not have gone the distance if I didn't have a chance of success my then volunteer role at Citizens Advice often covered parking tickets. I also had close involvement with the Tribunal in my previous Civil Service career. Was happy to punt a £65 increase in penalty for an opportunity to try the system out.
I posted at time, account starts here:
www.car4play.com/forum/post/index.htm?t=26058&m=574325&v=e
|
>> in my case it was £65 or 130 if not paid within 14 days , and IF it goes to tribunal and you win , it’s nothing but if you lose it’s 130 , I couldn’t afford to take that chance
That doesn't sound right. The appeal should freeze the payment at £65, and the clock should only start ticking again after a failed appeal.
Last edited by: VxFan on Sun 4 Aug 19 at 19:50
|
>> That doesn't sound right. The appeal should freeze the payment at £65, and the clock
>> should only start ticking again after a failed appeal.
As mentioned the fine is £130. £65 is a discount for early settlement/acceptance that you're 'bang to rights'; same as early guilty plea in the Magistrates or Crown Court.
There are three stages in contesting a 'Civil Penalty' for parking etc.
First is that you make 'informal representations' to the Council as soon as you're aware of the allegation. If they're accepted you're free. If not you can still settle with discount, ie £65 in London. Take it beyond that you get a 'Notice to Owner' and if your formal representations rejected you can go to the Tribunal. That's analogous to going to Magistrates court on a speeding rap; your 'not guilty' plea might be accepted but if it's not then fine and points WILL be more than if you took an early plea.
Doesn't seem unjust to me.
|
“the photos they sent show that I waited”
The test for the offence is not whether you waited to enter a box junction but whether your progress through the junction was blocked by a stationary vehicle.
|
There was a space for me to go through , till this car pulled out , leaving me in no mans land , they had no right ofWay to pull out on me .
IF it had stopped an ambulance entering or leaving , it might have been more palatable , but it was probably 15 seafoods before everyone else moved up.
I appealed and it took 3 months before they came back saying sorry we need the money , sorry it’s not being cancelled .
With everything else going on , I didn’t take it further .
It’s so wrong , if you contest it and lose , you also lose the right to the 65 fine a,d it goes straight to 130
|
It’s so wrong , if you contest it and lose , you also lose the
>> right to the 65 fine a,d it goes straight to 130
>>
If you could still pay 65 at the end of the appeal, it wouldn't be a £130 fine.
|
“ but it was probably 15 seafoods before everyone else moved up.”
I guess you were feeling bit crabby.
|
|
...they might have been packed as sardines, but you should have musseled in.....
|
>> It was outside a hospital between Syon Red and the M3 in Twickenham, I waited
>> outside the yellow box and went to go through it when cars moved off, and
>> there was a space for my car......until some git pulling out from the hospital and
>> left me stranded.
I had one in similar circumstances in Brixton. Unfamiliar territory for me. Two lanes fed into one lane and a bus lane at a crossroads controlled by traffic lights. I waited outside the box as traffic lights went green until there was space the other side. As I moved forward someone nipped into the space leaving me with the choice of stopping in the box, or going down the bus lane.............................................
|
|
I've had that happen many times but luckily they have not been on camera monitored boxes although this seems to be exacerbated by the increasing trend of drivers around where I work to leave a stupidly large gap between stationary vehicles (not sure why they do this?) and that goes along with the drivers who stop a cars length back from the stop-line at traffic lights.
|
I thought the 3pts I got were a bit unfair, if I had been stopped by a "Copper I may have been able to make him see reason and be let off with a "flea" but you can't do that with a camera, they have no compassion!
Had been crawling through Manchester traffic for almost 2hrs, stop/start, mainly about 5mph on a dark, wet saturday evening (the evening that Man U and city played each other at home) and the traffic was horrendous!
I managed to find myself head of the queue at a set of lights at a large junction, as the lights changed I moved off, and was about quarterway into the junction when I bespied a car barreling through the lights from my left, I stuck my foot down and just narrowly avoided a broadside, but as I did so, - a camera flashed! - 3pts and a £100 I was totally p**d orff!
|
My pet hate with boxes is that traffic joining the road seem to think they are allowed to wait in it but the traffic on that road aren’t.
Particularly bad one in High St Glasgow that if the joining traffic didn’t wait in it, the traffic light sequence would effectively prevent any traffic ever from joining!
|
|
You are of. Purse allowed to wait in a box junction if you are waiting to turn right and are obstructed by oncoming traffic or traffic waiting to turn right
|
Dartford bridge, 59 in a 50 zone by average speed cameras. It was so congested that day that I doubt if I exceeded 45! Took the course.
Bus lane fine in London to make way for Fire Engines. Several cars pulled over, so I suspect we all got fines.
|
>> Bus lane fine in London to make way for Fire Engines. >>Several cars pulled over, so I suspect we all got fines.
That would really niggle me.
|
|
I've heard of this before, so have the London emergency services. I no longer pull into bus lanes to assist the passage of a Blue Light vehicle, I'm afraid.
|
|
Is it not better for th emergency vehicle to use the bus lane?
|
about 4 weeks ago , I came off the A3 amd turned towards Putney Bridge , just prio to the traffic light there was a bus broken down, in the outside lane . Back door open . I waited there Not undertaking because the inside lane was a bus lane .
Loads undertook me , I wasn’t going to risk it . I took photos on my IPad ,so if the police came along hey could not say I was on my phone .
I tried to go around it , but it was too dangerous . Eventually I spoke to the bus driver, took a photo of him and went on the inside .
Hopefully it doesn’t come thru as using the bus lane .
|
Let’s say you parked in a shopping estate around Xmas , and it allowed you three hours get back to your car after 2.50 hrs and the queues to get out are long , because everyone is doing their Xmas shopping , you get in the car and drive towards the exit of that car park . It takes 45 mins to get to the main road , and the camera along that road times you at 3.09 , but is situated at least 20 yards beyond the car park , because the road has double yellow lines ,so obviously not a car park
If after several letter requesting payment , you receive letters taking it further , what would you do
A) pay the fine no matter how unjust
B ring the legal firm and ask when is the court case
C ask on here ??
|
Assume this is a private car park and not one run by the Council.
Variation on B:
You don't need to respond to letters from the solicitor. Wait for the court summons (I think they call it a notice of claim these days) which should be sent to your home address per V5 and previous correspondence. Make sure you don't miss it - it's unlikely the frank will say Buggsville county court. File a defence promptly and ask for case to be transferred to your local court for hearing. Turn up in person and put your case to the Judge.
Small Claims hearings are pretty straightforward and informal. Judge will be a man in a suit. You don't get to see what a judicial acquaintance of mine calls the uniform branch for small claims.
Get your evidential ducks in a row with photographs of the exit road and siting of the camera. Unless you have dashcam footage or they have CCTV it's going to be down to your evidence v theirs about the jam getting out but we all know the scenario where car park and/or local roads are gridlocked. If you were constantly stuck behind while other drivers waited for a car to load and clear their space say so.
Make sure the parking company's representative knows you believe you have a defence and spell out clearly to them what you will say.
|
|
Returned to my car to find a traffic warden in the process of issuing a ticket. The wheels were in a legitimate parking bay, but the back end was overhanging a motorcycle bay. There no motorbikes parked. Warden wanted my name and address. When I asked for proof of their identity they claimed they didn't have to carry any. I refused on the grounds they could be any weirdo dressed up as a traffic warden - seemed to upset them.
|
>> Returned to my car to find a traffic warden in the process of issuing a
>> ticket.
Did case go anywhere?
|
>> >> Returned to my car to find a traffic warden in the process of issuing
>> a
>> >> ticket.
>> Did case go anywhere?
I did 'phone the police station and they confirmed I should have given my details and wardens weren't required to carry ID, but they sympathised with me, whilst having a chuckle, as the warden had reported the incident.
I paid the ticket.
The wardens had an office overlooked by my place of work and used to park on double yellows 10-15 minutes before the end of their shift. Each time they did I would lodge a complaint and eventually the practice stopped.
|
|
So you were illegally parked and gratuiously offensive to a traffic warden and you think the fine was unfair?
|
I'm sure it won't make a difference in the big picture of things but wondering if the 3 hour rules are for being parked, or for making use of parking spaces or such like.
If you were sat in a stop start queue for half an hour trying to get out I am sure it could be argued you weren't making use of any of the spaces so weren't benefiting as such?
Was there anything in local press / media about it at the time as I'm sure you won't have been the only one!
Finally, take this as a sensible warning - don't go near shopping centres at Christmas time!!
|
This sort of situation is not helped by the modern way of handling exit from car parks by machine alone, with no human intervention.
In the late 70s / early 80s I used to park in a multi storey car park in Newcastle city centre regularly and it often took 20 minutes upwards t get from your parking space to the exit, there was never a hint of trying to charge for that time, while in the same situation now I could see the "system" trying to penalise drivers for that "overstay"
IMHO, if you leave your space before your allotted time is up that should be it, anything after that is not your fault and should not be penalised.
|
>> Was there anything in local press / media about it at the time as I'm
>> sure you won't have been the only one!
Had issue locally a couple of years ago. Major fire in pub adjacent to Weedon Road (major arterial road into Northampton from A45/MJ16) closed road and log jammed entire neighbourhood. Nonetheless numerous PCN's were issued on local retail park for 'overstaying'.
I think they were cancelled after local publicity.
|
|
A bit like Glasgow City Centre - all main roads were closed off for filming a Fast and Furious film with all traffic diverted through a bus lane. Yip, everyone was issued with tickets which were eventually cancelled after an outcry.
|
Thank you for this info .
It was actually down in Cardiff on NYD ), some parking is free on public holidays ) and I’d actually gone to a football game, the timing were correct , and I’d been sat in said queue after leaving the Costco car park at least 50 mins , but the cameras , were a good 30 yards down the road
I arrived at 16.35 and left at 19.44! Game started 5.30, 1st half and break ,6.30, and 2nd half finished 715, even if I allowed 20 mins from the ground to the car park, I was off and rolling by 7.30 latest , but with about 50 cars and 100’s 0 joining from other car parks, it was a slow exit out.
So far I’ve received 4 letters from PREMIER PARK , then I received a Final demand from Pp
Lgall in NewtonAbot., and they’ve now passed it on to BW LeGal,who have threatened legal action if I don’t pay the Now 229.04, by 29 th August,please contact us by the 29th.
They added we would like to work with you to resolve this without the need for court proceedings
Just wondering Bromtonaut, if your comments are made as a lawyer, or someone who has successfully stopped charge, either way thank you for your input
|
>> Just wondering Bromtonaut, if your comments are made as a lawyer, or someone who has
>> successfully stopped charge, either way thank you for your input
I am not a lawyer.
Would add observation that my comments about the small claims court and chances of success were predicated on you being a Christmas shopper using the store(s) for which the car park is provided. If you were attempting to freeload on their car park while attending a footy match then I think your wicket is very sticky indeed.
What does the signage say about conditions? Because if it says you have to be using the store you're jiggered.
I am occasionally prevented from shopping at various sites in Northampton because car parks are full of Saints/Cobbler's match attendees. They'll pay for match tickets but are too tight to pay for the extensive matchday car parks provided for both stadia. My well of sympathy for those who complain when they're issued with a PCN has run dry!!!
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Tue 6 Aug 19 at 15:25
|
|
It was a shopping retail outlet , where loadss of shops operated and I just happened to park in the Costco one , the furthest from the entrance
|
|
so you weren't actually using any of the shops?
|
>> so you weren't actually using any of the shops?
Weren't all such measures bought in *exactly* because of the problem caused by non-shoppers using the car parks excessively, both in numbers and duration?
I'd have originally gone for b) had you been a shopper, but since not I''d go for;
d) pay up, and next time use the appropriate car park.
|
|
No, because Costco was Shut , which is why I chose to park there. It said 3 hrs parking .....I was parked there 2hrs 50 mins ......they can’t prove I didn’t go to any of the shops between parking at 445 and 530
|
>they can't prove I didn't go to any of the shops between parking at 445 and 530
You can't prove how long it took you to crawl out of the car park.
|
|
True , but I can prove the cameras aren’t anywere near the car park I used ,and I Could video how long it takes to get from car park to camera on a match day
|
Honestly, no you can't. You can prove how long it took on the day that you made the video. That maybe an argument, even a persuasive one, but it is not proof.
In my opinion you used the car park as a football attendee and are now saying that the football match is the reason the ticket isn't fair.
Well you might get away with it, but if we're talking about "fair"......
No sympathy from me used to live near Bromp and have had to deal with parking in Sixfields when a match is on, and it's an a***. Even if they do stay under the three hours.
|
>> True , but I can prove the cameras aren’t anywere near the car park I
>> used ,and I Could video how long it takes to get from car park to
>> camera on a match day
As above, if signs are properly conspicuous and say 'Costco customers only' or similar than I think you're stuffed, even if Costco was closed.
If the signage just says 3 hours only and no reference to customers then it's down to whether you've the balls to tell the story to a plain clothes judge and hope you get away with it.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Tue 6 Aug 19 at 20:18
|
>> True , but I can prove the cameras aren’t anywere near the car park
You previously said...
" situated at least 20 yards beyond the car park"
I guess we have a slightly different understanding of the term "aren't anywhere near".
|
Trouble is now we have a whole industry that has grown up around 'enforcement'. I use that turn loosely.
Once upon a time it was solely the preserve of government officials - The Old Bill and Traffic Wardens who, being, I suppose, Civil Servants, were not slaves to performance, were accountable and had some discretion. I'm generally speaking here. They had responsibility for and had to take ownership of their 'snip'.
We now have armies of 'Enforcers' who now look for any excuse to report an 'Offender'. Its a nice little earner and I'm sure there must be rewards for performance.
Their systems are designed as such that you are now guilty until you prove yourself innocent. Once that report goes in there is a whole backroom of administration to apply the pressure, frustration and grind you down. Its not designed to show sympathy and understanding.
The original Enforcer has no ownership or responsibility so what do they care whether you may have a reasonable argument regarding your misdemeanour so they slap on tickets with gay abandon. If you are away from home its difficult to record evidence for your defence.
And we know we have a fight on our hands and its whether or not we have the stomach for that fight in this busy world or just pay up and make it go away. They rely on this. A monster has been allowed to be created. The motorist is an easy target and generally has no sympathy from any quarter. After all any possibility of removing a few from our polluted and congested environment cant be a bad thing.
Last edited by: Fullchat on Tue 6 Aug 19 at 10:37
|
>> Trouble is now we have a whole industry that has grown up around 'enforcement'. I
>> use that turn loosely.
Think of the unemployment statistics, if these jobs didn't exist! ;-|
|
your argument seems upside down to me. go back to the fifties and sixties and there were
plenty of "enforcers" Police, traffic wardens, railway and bus ticket inspectors, park keepers car park attendants etc who job was ot enforce rules and enforce them they did. You could get a fine for cylcing without lights, parking at a road junction and a hundred monor offences that are no longer enforced and are deemed insignificant.
It is the lack of enforecement in the modern world that brings the problems. If you are brought up with the attitude that minor rules dont matter and won't in any way be enforced you end up with no respect for mor major infringements of the law. When someone is fined for a speeding offence they are up in arms, not becuase they are not guilty but because they commit the offence on a daily basis and simply dont expect to be caught.
What we need is more enforcement, not less. Most of us comply wiht rules because by and large they are necessary for the running of an orderly society.
|
|
What we need is more enforcement by human beings who use their intelligence and apply it fairly in a particular circumstance, not by a camera linked to a computer whose sole purpose is to blindly issue penalties regardless.
|
In what way is a speed camera or a camera that records your entry and exit times from a car park “unfair”. It seems to me more even handed than the arbitrariness of a policec car happening to be in the area at the time the offence occurs or a parking warden happening to pass by.
I suspect you don’t mean fairer but rather “less chance of being caught”
|
The cameras on entrance and exit are fair enough in the sort of places I live where there are not enormous queues outside and where the time taken from leaving a space to exit of the car park is 5 minutes or less.
Cameras recording the exit time where you may have left the space 20-30 mInutes or more beforehand beforehand are taking the p, effectively charging to queue.
The ones local to me charge from paying the ticket machine onwards with no timing at exit or recording entry time and treating the paying at the ticket machine before exit as close enough to the exit time, don't really have much of a problem with these.
|
Because a camera records a specific moment in time and not the attendant circumstances which a human would. Those that monitor/review that moment then begin process on that moment. At that point you then have to prove your innocence or provide mitigating factors. And often after time has elapsed you are simply not able to do that.
For example giving way to a fire engine/ambulance and safely pulling over a stop line at a traffic light controlled junction or into a bus lane and then being processed for it quite frankly absurd and anyone supporting such process needs to give their head a wobble.
A speed camera on the other hand records an 'absolute offence'. There are very few defences for speeding.
You could argue that a camera recording a car park late is recording an 'absolute offence'. But if you cant physically get out then then proceedings stop there.
Last edited by: Fullchat on Tue 6 Aug 19 at 16:59
|
"For example giving way to a fire engine/ambulance and safely pulling over a stop line at a traffic light controlled junction or into a bus lane "
to be honest though often cited the need to do this is vanishly rare. I can't recall ever needing to doing it in 50 years of driving. I also suspect that most such genuine cases are overturned on appeal if reasonable evidence and timings are produced.
On the other hand the number of drivers driving through red lights and using bus lanes where there are no cameras is very high. Its all a question of decding where lies the greater good. Its a sad thing but a large minority of people simply ignore rules like stopping at traffic lights or driving in bus lanes if if they are not adequately policed
Last edited by: CGNorwich on Tue 6 Aug 19 at 17:35
|
" I can't recall ever needing to doing it in 50 years of driving. I also suspect that most such genuine cases are overturned on appeal if reasonable evidence and timings are produced."
Strangely enough during my service I have seen hundreds of people commit offences to facilitate my movement through traffic and I thank them for their public spiritedness and courtesy. Fortunately there are no traffic light cameras in our area or things may have been different.
And most genuine cases should not need to go to appeal, process should never have been started. Causing unnecessary anguish for normally law abiding citizens if common sense and discretion had been applied during the processing of the images.
There really are enough weapons grade dangerous idiots out there who need fettling.
When I was training I used to say that the only thing black and white in the service was the chequered band around the hats. Everything else was grey.
Last edited by: Fullchat on Wed 7 Aug 19 at 02:25
|
>> your argument seems upside down to me.....................>
I agree with all of that.
|
>> >> your argument seems upside down to me.....................>
>>
>> I agree with all of that.
>>
I don't think anyone is really moaning about enforcement, its the black and white enforcement that grates, with no care for the simple error or degree.
Running a wheel in to a bus lane to avoid an obstacle for a few yards would get the same fine as deliberately driving in the lane to get past traffic.
I have seen an OAP get a littering fine for a tissue falling out of his pocket. I saw him put the tissue in to his pocket, it just didn't go all the way in an popped out whilst he was walking along. The litter police got to him before I could. Does this compare to someone deliberately dropping fag buts, gum or take-away wrappings? In the past, he would have been informed and given the chance to correct his errors.
Re the car park queues, an attendant at a barrier would know the situation and probably raise the barrier with a time expired ticket. The camera and machine doesn't.
Two local school kids were fined recently for getting on the wrong train at a station. The times were messed up due to delays and they got on the first train to take them home as they usually do. The train they got on went up a different line and they got off at the first station to make their way back. They didn't leave the station and they crossed the bridge to get the first train back. They were caught by a ticket inspector and fined the penalty fare which I think was £15 each. Seems totally unreasonable seeing that it was an honest mistake.
Then there are systems deliberately designed to confuse like parking machines with complex instructions and difficult to enter registration numbers - some requiring the full number, some requiring the last 3 or first 4 digits, some not allowing an O to be transposed with a 0.
I was caught by a stupid system yesterday. Visiting a client, they had an unmanned lobby with a computer to enter visitor details. The system would not let you exit the lobby until the form was complete - save that it kept crashing as it couldn't find the person I was meeting as it wasn't their permanent place of work either. There was no drop down option for the names either so selecting a random one wouldn't work. Good thing for mobiles but time-wise - I was fined 10 minutes of my time unnecessarily.
|
I think it is important to differentiate between the local authority and the private car parking industry enforcement.
If you break the law in a council car park then you are fined.
If you overstay in a private car park you are deemed to have broken the contract that you are deemed to have made with the car park owner when you park there. If you break their terms and conditions then the penalty that they try to enforce is not a 'fine ' but an invoice for breach of contract .
If you want to see how really petty/unfair / downright nasty lying b******s these private parking enforcers can be then visit the 'Fight your private parking invoice website' .
Control of this industry needs to change but it requires an act of Parliament.
Last edited by: helicopter on Wed 7 Aug 19 at 09:13
|
Have you ever received an unfair fine - No FM2R
