Motoring Discussion > Keyless thefts	Miscellaneous
Thread Author: VxFan	Replies: 48

New Mon 28 Jan 19 13:56   Keyless thefts - VxFan

Which? has published the cars most at risk. www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-47023003 They found the Ford Fiesta, Volkswagen Golf, Nissan Qashqai and Ford Focus were all at risk. Thieves are increasingly thought to be using technology to bypass entry systems on keyless cars. The latest models of the Discovery and Range Rover, and the 2018 Jaguar i-Pace, all made by Jaguar Land Rover, were found to be secure. Of the top-selling cars in the UK, only the Vauxhall Corsa was deemed safe because it is not available with keyless entry and ignition. Reply to this message | Report message

New Mon 28 Jan 19 14:12   *Total* thefts - No FM2R

Total car thefts, including unauthorised taking (Police Statistics).... Year....Total Theft/UT 02/03......306,947 03/04......280,288 04/05......231,323 05/06......203,239 06/07......182,464 07/08......159,704 08/09......137,508 09/10......109,684 10/11.......99,208 11/12.......85,803 12/13.......74,136 13/14.......70,053 14/15.......70,214 15/16.......76,128 16/17.......91,354 17/18...….106,334 The implication being that the rise is related to keyless cars. I'm not sure that is wholly true. It needs to be related to total car ownership as well to make proper sense. Last edited by: smokie on Mon 28 Jan 19 at 22:38 Reply to this message | Report message

New Mon 28 Jan 19 14:30   *Total* thefts - No FM2R

Ooops 17/18...….106,334 Can a mod add that please. Reply to this message | Report message

New Mon 28 Jan 19 14:57   *Total* thefts - Zero

Its slightly misleading. The distinction needs to be between "convenience opening" and "normal button press" To open mine you need to have the key in your hand to press the button. But the key just needs to be nearby to start it. A relay entry & theft wont work. Aware of that, I didn't spec the feature, despite it being very useful. Last edited by: Zero on Mon 28 Jan 19 at 14:58 Reply to this message | Report message

New Mon 28 Jan 19 15:24   *Total* thefts - R.P.

My 3 Series is the same Zero. Mazda needs a key nearby. May the key a little radio proof bag (or an empty tin of beans !) Reply to this message | Report message

New Mon 28 Jan 19 15:27   *Total* thefts - Rudedog

Is it an option you can turn off/on? I spotted when specing my next new car wish-list that on the Golf GTi the key-less entry/start now seems to be a standard, not that long ago it was a £300 option. Reply to this message | Report message

New Mon 28 Jan 19 15:28   *Total* thefts - R.P.

BMW went down the keyless start option across the range a couple of years (or more now) - World's most pointless thing IMHO. Reply to this message | Report message

New Mon 28 Jan 19 15:29   *Total* thefts - R.P.

A Dutch friend says that manual gearboxes are no longer an option on BMWs in the Netherlands. Economy of scales I assume. Reply to this message | Report message

New Mon 28 Jan 19 15:38   *Total* thefts - Zero

Manual box is not an option on the 5 in the UK.Auto is needed to meet the emissions and mpg standards, and the Auto box is soooooo good there is no reasons why you wouldn't want it. Reply to this message | Report message

New Tue 29 Jan 19 06:51   *Total* thefts - Duncan

>> Manual box is not an option on the 5 in the UK. >> A mate works at BMW HQ. Apparently they deleted the manual option because the elderly drivers couldn't cope with a manual box, plus by the time they had got the seat far enough back to get their bellies behind the steering wheel, the poor old things couldn't reach the gear lever. True. Last edited by: Duncan on Tue 29 Jan 19 at 06:52 Reply to this message | Report message

New Tue 29 Jan 19 07:34   *Total* thefts - Runfer D'Hills

Tee Hee ! A penny has most definitely just dropped as a result of that post Duncan ! “He” did say he couldn’t get an E Class because it felt a bit cramped or something. All starting to make sense now. Pie problem in all likelihood you’d think eh? ;-) Reply to this message | Report message

New Tue 29 Jan 19 08:48   *Total* thefts - Duncan

>> Tee Hee ! A penny has most definitely just dropped as a result of that >> post Duncan ! “He” did say he couldn’t get an E Class because it felt >> a bit cramped or something. All starting to make sense now. Pie problem in all >> likelihood you’d think eh? ;-) >> You will have noticed that, when faced with an unanswerable proposition, he doesn't answer it? You can't blame the poor old fella, can you? Reply to this message | Report message

New Mon 28 Jan 19 15:35   *Total* thefts - Zero

Yes the BMW has keyless start, always but if you tick off the convenience feature then it not keyless entry, you need to press the blipper - This is the key differentiator To nick it they are going to force entry by breaking something, then maybe the relay theft might work. Reply to this message | Report message

New Mon 28 Jan 19 17:00   *Total* thefts - tyrednemotional

...I was surprised how close the "key" has to be for keyless start to work in my X1. I couldn't get the thing to work with the key in my pocket, door open with me immediately outside, and zilch. It really does seem to be that the key needs to be within the confines of the vehicle. Unless they can amplify and relay a signal from keys further away than the car can normally sense them, then it isn't going to be possible to get mine off the drive, as the keys are stored quit a distance inside. Reply to this message | Report message

New Mon 28 Jan 19 17:19   *Total* thefts - R.P.

Same with opening the Mazda doors.You need to be pretty close for it to work ! Reply to this message | Report message

New Mon 28 Jan 19 17:27   *Total* thefts - Crankcase

>> Unless they can amplify and relay a signal from keys further away than the car >> can normally sense them... I thought that was what was supposedly happening? Autoexpress say this. Dunno if it's a load of urban hoohah or trueish or spot on: What is keyless theft? The process criminals use to steal a car via keyless theft – also known as relay theft – is relatively simple. First, they buy a relay amplifier and a relay transmitter; these electronic gizmos can be purchased from the darker corners of the internet. Next, they identify a house with a nice car parked outside and, by using these gadgets, can detect whether the car features keyless entry and go. One criminal then stands by the car with his transmitter, while a second waves his amplifier around the perimeter of the house. If the car key is close enough the amplifier will detect its signal, amplify it and send it to the accomplice’s transmitter. This transmitter then effectively becomes the key, and tricks the car into thinking the real key is nearby, whereupon the thieves are able to open the car, get in and drive away. The whole process can take as little as 60 seconds and can be completed in near silence and as for safety reasons the engine won't just cut out when the key is out of range, there is very little to stop the thieves. Last edited by: Crankcase on Mon 28 Jan 19 at 17:27 Reply to this message | Report message

New Mon 28 Jan 19 17:31   *Total* thefts - No FM2R

>>and as for safety reasons the engine won't just cut out when the key is out of range I wondered about that. Surely it is not beyond the wit that the key has to stay within 3ft or so for the car to function. If nothing else at least set the alarm off if they separate.. Reply to this message | Report message

New Mon 28 Jan 19 17:33   *Total* thefts - andyfr

I have keyless on my Rav4 Hybrid. There is a procedure to turn it off which I use most of the time. Reply to this message | Report message

New Mon 28 Jan 19 17:48   *Total* thefts - tyrednemotional

>>I thought that was what was supposedly happening? I think you're misinterpreting what I said, though maybe I didn't phrase it well. My vehicle will only pick up the signal from the keys when they are veryclose. Essentially, they need to be inside the car before keyless start will work. Now it's quite possible that some kind of 'triangulation' is going on to determine this, but the implication is that the signal is itself of low intensity. My keys are stored towards the 'core' of the house - the exterior thus being significantly further away than the distance at which the car can sense those keys. Whilst I have little doubt that a signal amplifier could be used to bounce a signal from the front door to the interior of the car, it first needs to be able to get such a signal to amplify. The ability to 'grab' the signal to thus amplify it is what, in my case, I'm questioning. Reply to this message | Report message

New Mon 28 Jan 19 17:55   *Total* thefts - Bobby

>>Essentially, they need to be inside the car before keyless start will work. I think thats what happens - was certainly the case for my ix35. Never could understand how it could tell that the key was inside or just outside the car but it could! It might still be transmitting a signal much further distance though. Reply to this message | Report message

New Mon 28 Jan 19 18:34   *Total* thefts - R.P.

I think Humph mentioned many moons ago that he drove off leaving the key in the house. As long as you don't turn the motor off it's fine. But I guess the fake transponder will pretend to be a key for the journey to wherever they take the cars to be disposed of. Reply to this message | Report message

New Mon 28 Jan 19 19:26   *Total* thefts - Runfer D'Hills

Moons aplenty indeed, that would have been 2009/2010 when I had the Qashqai Tekna. Got several miles from home before realising I'd left the keys behind. I'd started the car as normal, but then having remembered that I'd forgotten something, if you see what...oh never mind...I then went back into the house, which of course meant I took the keys back in because my front door keys were on the fob...picked up the thing I'd forgotten, but then left the keys in the house and...well, set off. No, I'm not proud of it. Reply to this message | Report message

New Tue 29 Jan 19 07:48   *Total* thefts - DP

I didn't spec Comfort Access ( keyless entry) on the M140i for this exact reason. The keyless start is handy as it means I can just leave the key in my pocket once I'm in, but like Z's 5 series, you need to push the button on the key to unlock the car. No relay scanner is going to unlock it. Of course if they want it badly enough, they'll break into the house for the key, but there's not much you can do about that except make it as hard for them as possible. Mrs DP's MINI came with keyless entry as part of the Chili Pack. I'd rather not have it, and really don't think the added convenience justifies the security risk. Reply to this message | Report message

New Tue 29 Jan 19 07:57   *Total* thefts - Bobby

So how do you overcome this? Is it lead lined keyboxes in the house? How does the scanner work in a busier area, I assume they couldnt just stand by a keyless car outside a supermarket and pick the one signal out of all the signals doing the rounds, to open that car that they are at? Reply to this message | Report message

New Tue 29 Jan 19 08:12   *Total* thefts - Zero

>> So how do you overcome this? Is it lead lined keyboxes in the house? >> >> How does the scanner work in a busier area, I assume they couldnt just stand >> by a keyless car outside a supermarket and pick the one signal out of all >> the signals doing the rounds, to open that car that they are at? Its not a discrete theft, its a two man job, one with an aerial waving it round your home windows and doors, the other standing by your car with another receiver so its pretty obvious whats going on. Its very hit and miss with a less than 50% rate of success, and you only need to drop your keys in a closed tin box to defeat them. You have to target the car, time and location to do it. Reply to this message | Report message

New Tue 29 Jan 19 08:16   *Total* thefts - Zero

>> Mrs DP's MINI came with keyless entry as part of the Chili Pack. I'd rather >> not have it, and really don't think the added convenience justifies the security risk. The only real convenience is boot or hatch opening - a handful of stuff so just a wave of your foot under the bumper. Its no real convenience for me, I have to have hands free to open the cage anyway, and the dog is trained to stay, enter, or leave under command, so I dont need to hold her lead. Reply to this message | Report message

New Tue 29 Jan 19 11:38   *Total* thefts - Rory

For what it may be worth, for about a fiver you can by a wallet/pouch which blocks signals. The one I've got will easily hold 2 sets of keys and it really works. Reply to this message | Report message

New Tue 29 Jan 19 12:07   *Total* thefts - Zero

Seen them, friend of mine has new X5 and has that pouch, it does work (we tested it) but its quite bulky, and not practical while out, and you only need it for home so a coffee tin does the job just as well. Reply to this message | Report message

New Tue 29 Jan 19 12:28   *Total* thefts - Manatee

Have you tested the tin? I usually take the spare key if we go away on holiday, hidden in the car. Since having a couple of cars with keyless start (one has keyless entry too) I have tried putting the spare key in a tobacco tin. The Outlander knows it's in there and won't let me lock the car with the other key. It probably attenuates the signal enough to work when it's in the house, but it did surprise me. Reply to this message | Report message

New Tue 29 Jan 19 13:40   *Total* thefts - DP

Apparently, keeping your keys in your microwave oven also works. The microwave's shielding blocks the signal. Impossible to test without unplugging the microwave and taking it outside, which I'm sure SWMBO would have something to say about :) Reply to this message | Report message

New Tue 29 Jan 19 14:05   *Total* thefts - Zero

Expensive if you forget they are in there when you cook your morning porridge Reply to this message | Report message

New Tue 29 Jan 19 14:12   *Total* thefts - Zero

>> (one has keyless entry too) I have tried putting the spare key in a tobacco >> tin. The Outlander knows it's in there and won't let me lock the car with >> the other key. >> >> It probably attenuates the signal enough to work when it's in the house, but it >> did surprise me. Tobacco tin might not attenuate as much as you think, at 433mhz the tin might act as a 1/8th wave resonator. If you ground it it will block. Reply to this message | Report message

New Tue 29 Jan 19 15:35   *Total* thefts - henry k

>> If you ground it it will block. I have visions of - from the bedroom " Hang on dear, I have forgotten to plug my tin in to ensure there is have a good earth" Reply to this message | Report message

New Tue 29 Jan 19 14:47   *Total* thefts - andyfr

>> I usually take the spare key if we go away >> on holiday, hidden in the car. Since having a couple of cars with keyless start >> (one has keyless entry too) I have tried putting the spare key in a tobacco >> tin. The Outlander knows it's in there and won't let me lock the car with >> the other key. We do the same but I turn one of the keys off. There is a procedure for Toyota, there maybe one for other makes. Reply to this message | Report message

New Tue 29 Jan 19 16:12   *Total* thefts - Boxsterboy

We had this on the S-Max and now have it on my Peugeot and wife's BMW, so we have plenty of experience to confirm that it is a totally pointless 'feature'. It was standard fit on all 3 cars so we had no option, so to speak. When I next buy a car I will avoid it if at all possible. Meanwhile we have a little biscuit tin to house the key fobs in... Reply to this message | Report message

New Tue 29 Jan 19 16:57   *Total* thefts - smokie

I just rely on good old fashioned car insurance against theft :-) Actually mine is keyless and has autolocking (after x seconds of leaving the car). The flaw with that is that if I leave SWMBO in the car while I pop out to get something, it locks her in. She reckons she can't unlock the doors from the inside either. Could be handy at times I suppose... ;-) Reply to this message | Report message

New Tue 29 Jan 19 17:18   *Total* thefts - No FM2R

I think I don't care. Year.....Total Theft......Total cars....% Stolen 02/03.....306,947.........28,500,000.....1.08 03/04.....280,288.........29,000,000.....0.97 04/05.....231,323.........29,400,000.....0.79 05/06.....203,239.........29,800,000.....0.68 06/07.....182,464.........29,900,000.....0.61 07/08.....159,704.........30,200,000.....0.53 08/09.....137,508.........30,300,000.....0.45 09/10.....109,684.........30,100,000.....0.36 10/11......99,208.........30,300,000.....0.33 11/12......85,803.........30,400,000.....0.28 12/13......74,136.........30,500,000.....0.24 13/14......70,053.........30,900,000.....0.23 14/15......70,214.........31,100,000.....0.23 15/16......76,128.........31,500,000.....0.24 16/17......91,354.........31,700,000.....0.29 0.29% is about the same chance as a 45yr old male has of not seeing their next Birthday. Reply to this message | Report message

New Tue 29 Jan 19 17:24   *Total* thefts - henry k

>>The flaw with that is that if I leave SWMBO in the car while I pop out to get something, it locks her in >> All these " clever" features :-( My old Mondeo had a feature that the radio would auto switch off after an hour if I left SWMBO in the car and I took the keys with me. ( no such feature for SWMBO ). In the X type she sat there in silence. Reply to this message | Report message

New Tue 29 Jan 19 18:01   *Total* thefts - sooty123

All these " clever" features :-( >> My old Mondeo had a feature that the radio would auto switch off after an >> hour if I left SWMBO in the car and I took the keys with me. >> ( no such feature for SWMBO ). In the X type she sat there in >> silence. >> Couldn't you just leave her with the keys? Reply to this message | Report message

New Tue 29 Jan 19 18:18   *Total* thefts - smokie

I gave my Mrs the keys earlier today while she waited in the car for me while I got something. As I got out, it gave the three toots on the horn to show it was missing me already. I guess it saw I'd left the driver seat. The display showed something like keys still in car. My car isn't that modern really - 2013 model, 15 plate though. (I actually had someone come up and talk to me about it today in a public car park, he was the bloke from the local EV car selling place - he was telling me how they always sell quickly and mine was in a favoured colour! Knew his stuff though!) Reply to this message | Report message

New Tue 29 Jan 19 19:26   *Total* thefts - Bromptonaut

>> Actually mine is keyless and has autolocking (after x seconds of leaving the car). The >> flaw with that is that if I leave SWMBO in the car while I pop >> out to get something, it locks her in. She reckons she can't unlock the doors >> from the inside either. My office fronts onto a busy street with a set of short term pay and display bays directly under the window. Pretty much daily we hear alarms going off on cars with somebody in passenger seats.. Reply to this message | Report message

New Wed 30 Jan 19 13:17   *Total* thefts - Slightlyfatdirector

My wife's '17 Golf GTI has the keyless entry and start and it was not something would have wanted, but we are stuck with it. We bought a cheap 'faraday cage' pouch and when she gets home she pops her key in this pouch. She doesn't keep it in this when she is out and about as it is a bit bulky, and the risk of this relay thing happening whilst she is away from home shopping is much reduced anyway. If you choose to do the same thing, don't forget to get one for the spare key that you almost certainly have..... So we have two pouches, one for the spare key tucked away in a draw, and one easily accessable. For the Merc I have, this also has the feature (KeylessGo) but Mercedes give you the option to turn it of by pressing the lock button on the key twice in quick succession. The indicator lights flash twice and it switches the keyless entry off and I do this when I park up at home. Tried to see if the VW did this, and sadly it doesn't. Top Marks for Mercedes to give the option. Reply to this message | Report message

New Wed 30 Jan 19 23:30   *Total* thefts - zippy

I think I will avoid these for as long as I can. I can just imagine setting off for a 3 hour drive and ending up 150 miles from home with no key! Reply to this message | Report message

New Thu 31 Jan 19 07:46   *Total* thefts - Zero

Its happened, Reply to this message | Report message

New Thu 31 Jan 19 09:42   *Total* thefts - Tigger

>> I think I will avoid these for as long as I can. I can just >> imagine setting off for a 3 hour drive and ending up 150 miles from home >> with no key! >> My car warns you if the key leaves the vehicle. As it did this morning because I was de-icing. Reply to this message | Report message

New Thu 31 Jan 19 12:24   *Total* thefts - movilogo

Wonder why Farady pouch did not work. www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6652383/Keyless-car-thieves-steal-Range-Rover-Sport-worth-60-000-Harborne-Birmingham.html Last edited by: movilogo on Thu 31 Jan 19 at 12:25 Reply to this message | Report message

New Thu 31 Jan 19 12:56   *Total* thefts - VxFan

>> Wonder why Farady pouch did not work. Maybe the spare key was somewhere else, not in a pouch? Reply to this message | Report message

New Thu 31 Jan 19 19:29   *Total* thefts - Zero

>> Wonder why Farady pouch did not work. Because a: it wasn't or b:if it was the keys were not in it. Reply to this message | Report message

New Thu 31 Jan 19 22:37   *Total* thefts - Simon

>> >> Wonder why Farady pouch did not work. >> >> Because a: it wasn't or b:if it was the keys were not in it. If they opened the car by relaying the key code why does it look like the alarm goes off when they enter the car? It looks like the indicators start flashing. Reply to this message | Report message