3 weeks ago a friend of a friend ordered an M4 which was in stock.
Delivery was to be Thursday 15th Nov so on the 14th he changed his insurance already transferred his reg no. Wednesday afternoon he gets a call telling him car was being looked at & water was leaking but they would get back to him.
Radiator, waterpump???? ................not quite - flaw in the engine block meant it needed a serious repair. On finding this out he decided to ask for another car as he was unhappy that the car would be 6 weeks or so for a repair and in his words "not a new car". Garage #1 say he has to take it as it is registered in his name - he had many calls from the supplying dealer telling him another car could take 6 months to supply.
Angered he approached another BMW garage #2 a few miles away - they did not have one or have one on order BUT they could ask Garage #1 for one of the 2 they had not fully specified but were due for delivery in 6/8 weeks time.
Armed with this he went back to garage #1 with his new information & pointed out the sharp practice & lies .............the saga still runs on. Buying on Finance but he had not signed the Finance Paperwork as he would do that when picking up the car.
What would you do?
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There is a procedure for de-registering a new car, within 7 days of registration IIRC.
Assuming the dealer only registered it a day or two before pick-up, they had a short window to de-register. They have less of an excuse if they declined to do it when they had the chance.
Regardless, I don't think it's unreasonable for the customer to say he doesn't want it on the original terms.
Given their apparent conduct I would also be wondering what else they lied about.
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As he has not signed the finance, tell them to stick it,
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"A friend ordered" - are we sure it wasn't you? :-)
No way I would accept a 'brand new' car of that (or indeed any) value which had already had it's engine swapped. Cars having major work like that are never the same afterwards.
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>>which had already had it's engine swapped.
It is not a swap - it's a engine rebuild at the garage!
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>> It is not a swap - it's a engine rebuild at the garage!
I think "a flaw in the engine block" is more than just a rebuild.
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As said above I cannot see any reason why he should be obliged to wait and take the car.
He can either source a new one, or if he is a bit concerned, go get an Alfa Giulia Quad instead ;)
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>> >>which had already had it's engine swapped.
>>
>> It is not a swap - it's a engine rebuild at the garage!
I doubt it, block change? dealer is probably not equipped to do it.
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>> >> >>which had already had it's engine swapped.
>> >>
>> >> It is not a swap - it's a engine rebuild at the garage!
>>
>> I doubt it, block change? dealer is probably not equipped to do it.
It would be a fairly complex operation even to fit a short engine now, compared with the old days, especially to one of those. I suspect BMW would supply a complete engine, minus only ancillaries.
Still enough for them to cock up. A different job from factory assembly and probably one they don't do very often, at least since the Nikasil saga when dealers changed a lot of engines.
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I wouldn't take it on exiting terms. But I could be bought.
A substantial discounted price, a written statement detailing the work that has been carried out and guaranteeing the work over and above the manufacturer's warranty, and perhaps some other bits and bobs.
If they couldn't make a deal then I would not take the car and would be prepared to fight it with lawyers if they tried to make me.
I would pretty brutally lay it out to them; keep the car or pay me to take it. No option C.
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I’d tell your friend to walk. Get a 440 convertible like my pal two weeks ago. In the real world likes as makes no difference. Put the price saving difference toward a Westfield.
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>> I’d tell your friend to walk. Get a 440 convertible
Why ruin a fabulous looking car by cutting off the roof and throwing a towel over it.
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Albeit a heavily starched pretty solid towel
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>> I’d tell your friend to walk. Get a 440 convertible like my pal two weeks
>> ago.
Thought the 440 was a Volvo :-P
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My uncle owned a 340 GL CVT in metallic gold. He drove everywhere at 30 mph. On a fast day
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M4 or 440?
Against the stopwatch there is a difference, on the road nothing in it.
2 years ago a son bought an M3 - totally impractical with a wife & 2 kids.
Going away even for a weekend had problems getting cases etc in the boot. His thinking was that he would use a roof rack for holidays - the M3 has a carbon fibre roof so no roof rack. A 440 Touring would have been a much better buy, £20K saving, minimal sacrifice in performance but an estate car - he only found out about the roof issue 3 months after buying the car.
M3 traded in 6+ months ago & now on "first name terms" with the JLR Franchise service manager having purchased Discovery. He has also had to deal with JLR lack of support, shortage of parts + delays in resolving problems.
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Once you’ve had an estate car, it’s really hard to give them up.
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Tend to agree...in no particular order my estate cars have been a Morris Marina, Hillman Avenger, Volvo 240, 2x Legacy’s. Some hatchbacks...Sierra XR 4x4, Mazda 626 and a period of 20 years when I ran a succession of VW Transporters.
The odd midlife crisis with 2 seaters but I envisage another estate somewhere along the line.
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>> Once you’ve had an estate car, it’s really hard to give them up.
Hard? Impossible, I'd think. Why would you want to anyway? My only regret about my Accord is that its boot is not bigger. I loved my Audi 100...
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>> Hard? Impossible, I'd think. Why would you want to anyway?
I used to have a car with a big old boot. Do I miss it? Not really. Only when I need to transport something big or heavy, which to be honest isn't very often, and certainly not to the point of wanting one all the time.
Heck if I really need to move something that is too big to fit in my car, then I'll either ask a mate, see if I can borrow one of the vans at work, or as a last resort hire something.
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>> now on "first name terms" with the JLR
>> Franchise service manager having purchased Discovery. He has also had to deal with JLR lack
>> of support, shortage of parts + delays in resolving problems.
Fairly serious question.
Did he really have no idea what he COULD be letting himself in for?
I mean, come on. Honestly?
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I find it extraordinary that JLR just don't seem to get the message. Range Rovers were unreliable when they first came out in 1970, as were Discoveries which started I think in 1989. Experiences like FB's son's are as common as ever.
I wonder what the reasons are for the chronic unreliability. They seem to go wrong mainly when new, unlike most German cars which are fine for the first 3 or 4 years and then can get expensive.
It can't be British workmanship, as Toyotas and Hondas are assembled faultlessly here; Nissans were OK until the Renault tie-up. Minis, like other BMWs, go wrong when thy get older.
Last edited by: Avant on Wed 28 Nov 18 at 12:32
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>> It can't be British workmanship,
Its basic engineering design. I went on an off roading course, and we were given, then new out, Dico 3's to play around with. The offroad abilities of the car was untouchable, brilliant, it was also on road a comfortable practical cruiser.
I recall tho - and remember this was a brand new third generation car, the bare thin wires, ie not wrapped, or armoured or sheathed, that came out of the body to the suspension and then cabletied to the brake wheel sensors.
My thought then was, that this is appalling engineering design that is doomed to fail. Poke around anywhere in them that cant be easily seen and you will find cost cutting and poor engineering practice.
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> Its basic engineering design. I went on an off roading course, and we were given,
>> then new out, Dico 3's to play around with. The offroad abilities of the car
>> was untouchable, brilliant, it was also on road a comfortable practical cruiser.
>>
>
We ran a brand new fleet of them (~40), electronically garbage no end of faults, it was just a stream of them. Nightmare to get them repaired, partially due to location but still their support was poor.
We also ran a smaller fleet (~10) of mitsi pajeros, just as good off road and I don't remember a single fault. Nowhere as near nice inside though.
Both types used the same sort of driving, a mixture on and off road.
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>> I wonder what the reasons are for the chronic unreliability. They seem to go wrong mainly when new, unlike most German cars which are fine for the first 3 or 4 years and then can get expensive.
It can't be British workmanship, as Toyotas and Hondas are assembled faultlessly here; Nissans were OK until the Renault tie-up. Minis, like other BMWs, go wrong when thy get older.
I have often wondered the same thing, and the only thing that makes sense to me is that they are trying to compete with the Germans on features, tech, showroom appeal and price, but with a higher unit cost due to lower production volumes. This leads to anything not visible or that doesn't help sell the car in the showroom being shaved in cost to the point where its reliability in service is pot luck.
BMW built about four times as many cars in 2017 as Land Rover did, so I bet their parts supplier costs and terms are more favourable. Also innovation can be shared across a broader range of vehicles, so development costs are reduced too.
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Friend of mine has just bought a new dog wagon (she is a horse person as well). She had a Land Rover discovery, wanted the Range Rover Velar, because of its looks, style and snazzy features, but couldn't face more LRJ unreliability and agro, so bought a nearly new X5. Her X5, and my 540 look really smart next to each other in the dog training car park.
Last edited by: Zero on Wed 28 Nov 18 at 13:33
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My dad had a series 1 Discovery with the old 300 TDi engine in it. The thing was unstoppable, never let him down, and was still running perfectly with 200,000 miles on it, at the time the body started to part company with the chassis due to terminal rust.
Replaced with a Discovery 2 Td5, which has been nothing but a pain in the backside from day 1. Constant electrical faults, a dozen breakdowns, and unreliable to the point of being unusable. Serial component failures, even from a low mileage.
Under the skin, it's shocking. Wires that are barely long enough, not insulated properly and look like they've been installed by an amateur with a cheap soldering iron, and a distinct lack of weather proofing of components for a vehicle designed to be used off road.
The newer stuff has infinitely greater complexity, so if the same approach is taken to the build, it's amazing they work at all.
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In truth one of the reasons there is not a new XF Sportbrake on my drive is I couldn't risk the agro.
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>> In truth one of the reasons there is not a new XF Sportbrake on my
>> drive is I couldn't risk the agro.
Similar to me with the XE.Still think it's a better looking (and driving) car than an F30 3-series, but they were on a previous employer's company car list, and withdrawn after 6 months due to the ridiculous downtime. That said, we had the exact same scenario with DSG equipped VWs as well.
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Been a to-ing and a fro-ing on the M62 today. Wow it was windy !
At one point I was behind a 17 plate Range Rover Sport. I could see something flapping in the wind near the bottom of the driver's door which eventually fell off. It was a fairly substantial piece of matt black trim, maybe 6" deep and the length of the bottom of the door. Car next to me ran over it.
I know it was a bit windy but it shouldn't have been strong enough to blow bits off cars !
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Plenty of lorries blown over on the A66 today. Did you see any on the M62?
It can get hairy over the top.
Pat
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Thank goodness no, everyone was taking it pretty easy. With one exception, an idiot in a 7.5 tonner was seriously tailgating a middle lane dawdler at one point, almost touching the back bumper at 50mph. I can understand how the frustration must build, but that was way out of order. Little hatchback which would just have been crushed in an instant if something had gone awry.
Makes you wonder how anyone could get so het up that they are prepared to risk lives, even if they are being provoked.
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I can never understand drivers (of any vehicle) getting that wound up. I'm of the mind that they really should never be driving at all.
Pat
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I think that driver's actions stood out particularly because everyone else was very much taking heed of the atrocious weather conditions and behaving accordingly.
I suppose I occasionally used to get angry on the road as young man sometimes, but whether it's age/experience or something else, I never allow myself to engage with an idiot now. No matter what I might do, they'll still be an idiot and I'd far rather they were someone else's idiot.
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>>I suppose I occasionally used to get angry on the road as young man sometimes,
I was horrible. Just about the most bad tempered driver ever. Quite awful., and quite shameful.
Then I started working places you could get shot for behaving like that which kind of made me reflect on the ridiculousness of my behaviour.
Just what does it matter if someone gets in front of me, or I am 5 minutes later arriving somewhere? A stupid thing you risk your life or waste your time on.
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Now, don't forget, before Pat gets here. You know what she's like.
If a lorry gets blown over, it's not the driver's fault!
O.K?
Oh!
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It's not the driver's fault and after Ian got blown over a couple of years ago and had to be cut out of his lorry after being trapped in the roof section for a couple of hours that remark was perhaps, a tad insensitive Duncan.
If you had worn his shoes this morning at 12.30am when we got up with it blowing a hooly, you would understand the fear never goes away after that.
Pat
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>>... Her X5, and my 540 look really smart next to
each other in the dog training car park.
Ey up! Steady on, no fool like an old fool etc...
;-)))
(Actually, you’re probably not going to get into too much bother, what with the greeny beige car and all. )
Last edited by: Runfer D'Hills on Wed 28 Nov 18 at 14:01
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>> (Actually, you’re probably not going to get into too much bother, what with the greeny
>> beige car and all. )
>>
I can feel the radiated vanity from here!
Last edited by: VxFan on Wed 28 Nov 18 at 20:13
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>> I can feel the radiated vanity from here!
Must have radiated through your miserable bitterness then
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>> Must have radiated through your miserable bitterness then
>>
Why? My state pension would lease me a vanity waggon if I wanted one, I don't need it to live on, or have to flog videos to make ends meet.
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>> >> Must have radiated through your miserable bitterness then
>> >>
>>
>> Why? My state pension would lease me a vanity waggon if I wanted one, I
>> don't need it to live on, or have to flog videos to make ends meet.
>
I dont know why you are miserable and bitter, but you just carry on compounding it.
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>> I dont know why you are miserable and bitter, but you just carry on compounding it.
>>
Your need to respond and care for my welfare is much appreciated.
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Do you have green Hunter wellies to match ?
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What is the official BMW colour Zeddo? I’ll have a look at their website to check it out on photos
Much as I like my Volcano Grey, which looks lovely imho with the interior trim expensive option, I still occasionally think I should have chosen Carmine Red.
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>> What is the official BMW colour Zeddo? I’ll have a look at their website to
>> check it out on photos
Atlas Cedar
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>> Range Rovers were unreliable when they first came out in 1970, <<
In another life in the 70's I was a sales rep and one of my customers was Leicestershire Police who had their own maintenance depot at Leicester Forest East. I *think* they were the first Police Force to have Range Rovers and the quickly realised that in any high sped chase they would be very unstable after a few overturned.
I managed to supply them with heavy duty leaf springs and they became my second best customer and only a close second to National Coal Board at Coleorton!
Pat
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Coleorton - NCB W Mids Area HQ. Remember it well, I was in the Coal Board (London HQ) from '74 for a few years.
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I used to shake like a leaf in those days in trepidation of my annual visits to negotiate the next year's contract:) ...I always got it though!
Pat
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>>Did he really have no idea what he COULD be letting himself in for?
2 x sons buy & sells cars on a whim - do not take advice on anything until it goes wrong & then they buy something new to replace it.
Sat in his wife's new Golf R yesterday - really quite nice but with a DSG gearbox!
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>>Sat in his wife's new Golf R yesterday - really quite nice but with a DSG gearbox!
there is something about a used Golf GTE that ticks many of my boxes but it comes with a wet clutch DSG........
"A six-speed wet clutch DSG transmission developed for hybrid vehicles is standard.
The electric motor is integrated into the gearbox housing, while further hybrid components include power electronics and a charger. An electro-mechanical brake servo and an electric air conditioning compressor make for energy-efficient braking and air conditioning.
Probably standard on PHEV vehicles but sounds complicated and lots to go wrong!
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>> there is something about a used Golf GTE that ticks many of my boxes but
>> it comes with a wet clutch DSG........
>>
>> "A six-speed wet clutch DSG transmission developed for hybrid vehicles is standard.
>>
I have had mine for 5000 miles now, so far so good :-)
Issues on GTE forums usually seem to centre on battery and software issues, little bits on gearbox judder low down but that's gone quiet in recent months.
Most people seem to be relatively pleased with them, as I am.
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Commer Is your used or brand new? What is your real life electric range?
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>> Commer Is your used or brand new? What is your real life electric range?
>>
Brand new company car in June this year
Real life electric range about 26-28 miles in summer with my slightly heavy footed driving
So far looks like 20-22 miles in recent weeks, lots of journeys with lights, wipers, screen demist on.
It's an interesting car lots of people get better range being light footed, I got it partly as a quick car and use the performance at times.
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Does your have the facility to demist and heat the car up whilst still plugged in?
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>> Does your have the facility to demist and heat the car up whilst still plugged
>> in?
>>
If I am starting from a connection, yes.
But I do not have a connection at home. I am . not the "typical" PHEV user, so I often start from scratch, including a morning defrost.
Still reckon it was the right choice for my needs though.
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>> If I am starting from a connection, yes.
>> But I do not have a connection at home. I am . not the "typical"
>> PHEV user,
Ah but you are. Most PHEVs are bought on company schemes because the BiK is low, Most company PHEVs never see a charging cable in their entire lease period.
According to a recent report anyway.
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I currently work at a client who have chargers and use these most weeks, sometimes twice, and I use local public chargers sometimes as well.
The Golf also works fairly well as a hybrid when you are in GTE mode, getting reasonable consumption and keeping a few miles of battery life in there unless you get very heavy footed.
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>>Did he really have no idea what he COULD be letting himself in for?
I think Land Rover as a brand is the go to for many people with money to spare who want to make a statement. My number one Lottery car was always a Range Rover. It would tick all boxes if I only had to get one car.
However the reality of the reliability is that it would be a poor purchase. But many with money to burn will buy it automatically (remember there are many customisers providing special editions of these). Also many will be on leases I would guess and would assume JLR would look after warranty issues with speed......
I have previously said that I know of 3 people with Discovery Sports that have had to return them, just heard of a 4th yesterday who is currently in "negotiations" with JLR and dealer as they need a new engine. JLR are claiming warranty is null and void as it was 1000 miles past its service mileage!
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The wet-clutch DSG has a much better record for reliability than the dry-clutch - I'm not technically minded enough to know why.
9,000 miles up in my Q2 with wet-clutch DSG: that was one of the reasons I went for the 2.0 petrol. So far so very good.
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Update
Garage #1 still maintained he had to buy the faulty car & would not budge - so he walked.
Garage #2, who were initially happy to help, could / would not match the £deal @ Garage #1
Garage #3 matched dealer #1 & delivered the right car in the right colour etc etc
BMW sent him a cheque for £1,000 for the bad management of buying experience.
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I expect garage #1 got it's backside handed to it by BMW UK
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Garage#1 was stuffed. I was wondering whether an element of blame was being attached to them by BMW - Can't see them not intervening.
We had trouble with a Mazda dealer. Service desk worker was a complete knob. Feedback was asked for and provided, garage's service manager phoned offering a free full valet and and apology. The man at the desk was objectionable to us and to other staff members.
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>> Garage #3 matched dealer #1 & delivered the right car in the right colour etc
I know it's unlikely, and I am unnecessarily cynical, but you did check it was not the same car, didn't you?
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BMW - Brand new BMW M4 needs a new engine - Manatee
