www.gazettelive.co.uk/news/teesside-news/evans-halshaw-fined-saying-car-15446072
Apologies for the dreadful local paper website.
Basically local dealer advertised a car as "one previous keeper". That keeper was Enterprise car rentals.
I am surprised at the amount however they had already been done for this in the past.
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I am astonished this has happened. It is a matter of fact that it has "one previous keeper". How can that be misleading?
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As much as I distrust car dealers, I think they've been unfairly treated. The potential buyer got his deposit returned and suffered no loss.
My current car is 'one previous owner' ex hire car. The dealer made no attempt to hide this and I had no problem with it.
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It's more a case of what they didn't put in the ad rather than what they did.
They wanted them to explain that one previous owner in this case was a hire car company. Not that unreasonable.
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Interesting.
Feb 18. I was in the market for trading in a 14 plate Sportage for the newer model and looked at the second hand market.
Found one that fitted the bill at - wait for it ...................Pendragon Kia in Sheffield some 70 ish miles away. Just over 9K on the clock FR July 17.
Went to view. It needed a bit of a vacuum, the bodywork and wheels were as new. Test drove well. Deal done, deposit left and arranged to collect in 10 days. Was also classed as Kia Approved Used - whatever that means. I think you can take it back within a short period of time if you are not 100% happy. I asked about its history an was told it had been a 'Kia Management Vehicle'. Of course this was only a verbal inquiry and response.
Whilst perusing my purchase on the internet and looking through the detailed photographs I noticed that the leather covered gear knob seemed a bit raggy at the rear so emailed the salesman requesting, politely, that the gear knob be replaced.
I never received a reply to my email and tipped up at the dealership. The salesman at the time was dealing with a customer. Time started to tick by and there are only so many coffees one can consume. It must have got to just over the our when he became available and I was well ticked off by this time. He apologised profusely and informed me he had to go to another location and collect some paperwork and also fill it up which was part of the deal. Why someone else couldn't have gone whilst he was dealing with a customer is beyond me. I inquired as to whether he had received my email and had the gearknob been replaced? 'No' was the response stating there was someone at another branch with the same name who regularly received his emails. Of course they would not have a forward button would they???
He duly returns and the vehicle goes into the workshop where the whole gear lever is replaced from a new vehicle. Once completed he invites me to check over the vehicle and I notice a large white mark on the rear boot floor carpet. So its off to the valeter. Back it comes and I'm invited to check it. Lovely as I rub my hand over the site of the stain. Except my palm is now covered in black paint. Very quickly the panel is removed and exchanged with one from the showroom.
So the handover took around 3 hours. Now I am sure many of you would say that I should have walked away as proceedings got worse. I come very close at certain points. But I actually liked the car and my trade in had been stripped of all its accessories including tow bar/electrics ( which is no mean feat). Insurances had been rearranged and Car Tax paid.
Vehicle now home and forensic check commenced. Noted a wear mark on the carpet under the clutch pedal. Now this is indicative of clutch use without a mat / carpet. Most hire companies do not supply cars with mats. Bells ringing!! 9K in 6 months and then disposed of. Bells now deafening!!!!!
Of course I did not have the Registration Document at this point. When it arrived the PK was shown as Apex 04832 at an address in Eastbourne. Google Earth and Streetview shows this :
tinyurl.com/y7ew32xy
Apex Car Rental - well what do you know!!!! Clearly some vagueness on the Reg Doc to obscure its provenance.
So thanks Pendragon, and not even a follow up call, any communication, or even Customer Satisfaction Questionnaire :) regarding my purchase.
So. Am I surprised? Not a bit.
Am I disappointed? Yeah with myself a little bit. Not with the car But the fact that I was sucked in and missed some pointers. Once again the motor industry has proved to me what a set of bandits they are. I could have / should have asked to see the Reg Doc which may have given me a clue but this may have allegedly not have been available.
Should I have bailed out earlier when I had justification? As above.
Should I have taken it back under the Kia agreement? Lot of aggro and 70 miles away.
I do like the car and it was in really good condition. However this did bring on a bout of 'Buyers Remorse'
Pendragon? Difficult as they are a major player but never again.
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Was the car any the worse for being an ex hire car?
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>> Was the car any the worse for being an ex hire car?
The two I've previously over the years were fine.
Garage said in both cases the car had one previous owner. Strictly speaking they weren't lying. The previous owners were Enterprise rental. Only found out after I got the V5C though the post from the DVLA.
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>> 'Kia Management Vehicle'.
There's the odd management vehicle sold - my Merc was one, and a neigbour gets a car from his old (he's retired) company - but the vast majority of the time "management vehicle" means "daily rental".
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>>Once again the motor industry has proved to me what a set of bandits they are
That was my experience, having spent 14 years in the motor trade - at the greasy end.
>>Am I disappointed? Yeah with myself a little bit.
Anyone would be, tis only natural, especially with a nearly new car.
I would be inclined to write to the CEO, lay it on thick, mention the Peelers, and 'drop' the name Honest John on him/her too.
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Car Hire companies are renown for using vague company titles to register vehicles to. I bought an ex rental clio for the wife, clearly it was as it had done 9k in 6 months so I bought it on that assumption. It then went on to do another 40k trouble free miles in 7 years and burned not one drop of oil.
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My last Golf was a year old ex rental. I bought it on condition and price. No problems at all in the four years I owned it. Is a rental Vehicle a worse proposition than the proverbial one lady owner who has driven 3000 mile in a year?
Last edited by: CGNorwich on Wed 21 Nov 18 at 22:14
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>> My last Golf was a year old ex rental. I bought it on condition and
>> price. No problems at all in the four years I owned it. Is a rental
>> Vehicle a worse proposition than the proverbial one lady owner who has driven 3000 mile
>> in a year?
Realistically no. Ex rentals are actually likely to be a good buy. So are ex company cars that do 60k miles in 2 years. Joe Punter though doesn't share that view - he's still convinced one private owner and low mileage is way to go.
Hence the trade has an incentive to play fast/loose with vehicle's history.
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Who's to say the one private owner hasn't let their partner and teenage kids also use it? In a lot of cases, if it's not yours, then you're less likely to treat it with the same respect as the owner.
At least with hire cars they're generally checked over between each customer using it. Levels topped up, etc. The private owner might not top the oil level up until the oil pressure light has come on.
Let's face it, any 2nd hand purchase is a gamble.
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>>Lovely as I rub my hand over the site of the stain. Except my palm is now covered in black
>>paint. Very quickly the panel is removed and exchanged with one from the showroom.
Not sure what else you expected. When you buy a new car it has already had the local chipsanddents man round to put black paint on the black bits that had gone red and red bits on the red bits that had gone black.
You were complaining that the black carpet lacked some black dye. They gave you some black dye. If you'd let it dry you'd never have known the difference! So of course they were happy to swap it with another car.
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>> Was the car any worse for being an ex hire car?
Doesn't appear so. But when I'm making a large purchase involving not an inconsiderable amount of my money I like to make a decision based on facts not vague deceit.
>> You were complaining that the black carpet lacked some black dye. They gave you some black dye. If you'd let it dry you'd never have known the difference! So of course they were happy to swap it with another car.
FFS! the dealer had 10 days to prep the car for delivery. It should have been all done checked and ready to go.
Quote from Kia Approved Used blurb:
'Perfect mechanical condition. Every Kia Approved Used car comes with a full service history, completed by qualified Kia Technicians and thoroughly valeted to the highest standards, making it look and feel like a brand new car.'
Clearly it wasn't and this just compounded the whole experience.
And yes, if it had been sprayed the previous day I may not have noticed. It wasn't and i did. Sloppy attitude and customer service,
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>> Basically local dealer advertised a car as "one previous keeper". That keeper was Enterprise car
>> rentals.
>> I am surprised at the amount however they had already been done for this in
>> the past.
Good. I'm not against hire cars per se, but consumers have the right to know what they are buying. THis is exactly what the CPRs were intended to achieve. Indeed, the original OFT Used Car guidance specifically mentions ex-rental vehicles.
This has been an offence for ten years!!! Its good to see the courts starting to take it seriously.
Last edited by: Tigger on Thu 22 Nov 18 at 06:43
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My ex Rental car history
1995 - Astra, 7,000 mls & 6mths old - needed gearbox strip under warranty as 1st/2nd & IIRC reverse were sticky - bought for sons at Uni - 2001 sold with 95K - 100% reliable - tyres, brakes, servicing etc etc
1999 - Xedos - ex Mazda demo car - sold in 2014 with immaculate history - servicing, calipers, bushes, recharge AC once, timing belts (engine out job!!) - 3 bulbs only (all originals when sold apart from 2 x stop lights & 1 x reversing).
Receipt file I gave to the new buyer was basically 14 x annual servicing (mostly Indie), timing belt x 2 (mazda garage), 4 x calipers, anti-roll bar, pulley.
All loved & cared for car in my time - the new buyer put on 20K in 12 months - never serviced & the engine blew up - why? I do not know - the buyer was a friend of a friend & she never asked.
£15,500 to buy, sold for £500 - so effectively cost me £1000/ year in depreciation & say £60/ year in repairs - cheap motoring & the best car I have ever had out of 40+ new/nearly new in 54 years car ownership.
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>>timing belts (engine out job!!)
Same as the tappets (um, valve clearances) on a Subaru (olde models) = £1000++
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My experience of dealers is that they keep you away from the V5 as long as possible. Even if there are no hidden problems it seems to be what they do in case there is an issue. Its not just hire cars, its the "one previous previous keeper" chestnut and driving school cars. They hope your heart will rule your head.
They also play fast and loose with service histories with descriptions such as "good" service history. or service history "present". Probably not illegal but potentially misleading. Caveat emptor.....
Having said all that, over the years we have knowingly bought two driving school cars and one ex-hire car. In no case did the dealers offer up this info but the price reflected their history. The driving school car was also registered in an innocent sounding way to a lease company but a quick look for the dual control removal holes was a giveaway. It just reinforces my view never to trust a car dealer.
Like others I am surprised at the fine for the hire car case. I note they are appealling.
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I think the size of the fine is set by the company weekly profit or similar?
FWIW I think regardless of whether you think buying an ex hire car is a good or a bad thing, the selling garage in this case deliberately avoided telling the proper history of the car.
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My father had several ex-hire cars in the 80s and 90s. His theory was that being hire cars they would have been well looked after and any teething problems already rectified; much better to buy a car at six months and 9k than new from that perspective. Also he got nearly-new cars for a significant discount over original cost. They all served him very well.
If I were in the market for a nearly-new car then I'd be actively looking for an ex-hire car. Why else would a car be disposed of after 6 months unless it had been a lemon?
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When I bought my approved Kia from main dealer, they claimed the car has 1 previous owner. I did ask to see the V5 but salesman told me they had it locked somewhere and person with key was not present on that day.
I guessed something was wrong but as I liked the car and Kia threw full 7-yr warranty didn't bother. I was also in hurry as my old car was written off.
When I received the V5 I discovered previous owner was a rental company. I wrote to dealer principal who offered me a free service. I also contacted Kia customer service who said approved car does not mean it can't be ex-rental.
DVLA should add an extra attribute in V5 to indicate whether previous owner was a private individual or organization.
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>> DVLA should add an extra attribute in V5 to indicate whether previous owner was a
>> private individual or organization.
A: it makes no difference to the car you purchased.
B: 60% of all UK car purchases are via organisation or companies, so it would be a waste of time. specially as you didnt get to see the V5 anyway (with the name of the "company" who owned it)
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>> as you didnt get to see the V5 anyway (with the name of the "company" who owned it)
The V5 does show previous owner's name.
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>> >> as you didnt get to see the V5 anyway (with the name of the
>> "company" who owned it)
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>> The V5 does show previous owner's name.
It does, and that name might be a company, so its just like tagging it up as you wanted, so there is no need, but hey "you didn't see the V5 anyway so whats the point?"
Last edited by: Zero on Thu 22 Nov 18 at 16:10
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>> >> as you didnt get to see the V5 anyway (with the name of the
>> "company" who owned it)
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>> The V5 does show previous owner's name.
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No it doesn't. It shows the registered keeper and number of previous registered keepers.
The V5 is not proof of ownership.
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Isn't it bit pedantic? If the previous registered keeper is rental firm that equals many drivers.
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>> Isn't it bit pedantic? If the previous registered keeper is rental firm that equals many
>> drivers.
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No it's not.
if you rely on the V5 as being proof of ownership then you could come unstuck by buying a car from someone that doesn't have the right to sell it.
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>> Isn't it bit pedantic? If the previous registered keeper is rental firm that equals many
>> drivers.
No it doesn't, I had lease cars for 4 years each time, I was the only driver, but the V5 was registered to a lease hire company.
As I said, 60% or more of cars are lease/company/hire bought from new.
I am the registered keeper on my Beemer, but I dont own it. (well I didnt, but I do now the V5 hasnt changed tho)
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My old Astra estate had been a 'hire' car, but it had been hired to a company for whom my mate worked - he had been the sole driver for 3 years. He bought it from the hire company, then sold it to me for what he had paid for it. My name would have appeared as the third owner.
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Back along, I had two consecutive Mondeo estates through "Ford Direct". Ex hire cars, both had been at Hertz, 6 months old and fewer than 10,000 miles. Very cheap indeed for the models. Seem to think/remember I paid just over £10,000 for each of them when new versions of the same models were listed at over £20,000.
Excellent cars in both cases and I went on to put huge, but entirely trouble free mileages on both of them. Despite being assured by "experts" on Internet forums that the clutches were made of cheese, it must have been particularly strong cheese, because they never gave me any bother.
Wouldn't have any qualms about doing the same again in future.
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My BX 19RD estate, bought in 1993, was one owner but owner was a the National House Builders Council. Not sure if it was one person's company car or one of a fleet of pool vehicles. It'd racked up around 50k miles in 2 years.
We ran it for another 100k + in next 12 years. Only got rid after it failed MoT on steering rack wear and with cautions about cill corrosion.
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Jeez, Humph, hearing you talk about Mondeo estates reminds me how much of my life I have spent on motoring forums!!
Think that was my earliest recollection of the other place - that was your stalk answer to everything!
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As said, the V5 has not shown the previous registered keeper since EU GDPR in April 2018. It now just shows current keeper and number of previous. If the dealer has registered the car to themselves as a trader (as they are supposed to) then you cannot see the previous keeper, what is more, if they gave/showed you the V5 before they exchanged it they would fall foul of the new EU regulations.
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So there is now no way to figure out if previous owner was Enterprise etc unless you are buying directly from them?
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>> As said, the V5C has not shown the previous registered keeper since EU GDPR in April 2018.
Well I never knew that.
There really are some daft snowflake rules.
Last edited by: VxFan on Fri 23 Nov 18 at 11:11
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Pity they are not so cautious about divulging keeper details to parking companies.
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>>>Pity they are not so cautious about divulging keeper details to parking companies.
Indeed. Had a lot of dealing with 21yr old daughter falling foul of a parking co incorrectly "policing" her flat car park and issuing tickets which then escalated. The guy running the parking co was visiting the car park at 6am... and he was just a year into a two year suspended sentence for pulverising a harmless young punter when he worked as a bouncer.
Our investigations into all this uncovered some very unsavoury characters involved in the business.... close to protection racket stuff.
Re the car previous owner stuff...
Unless buying privately and meeting them at their house the name, title, location and perceived respectability of a previous owner be it private or company is a tiny part of the overall assessment needed on choosing a car. A previous rental car backed by a main dealer used warranty is nothing to be worried by.
Last edited by: Fenlander on Fri 23 Nov 18 at 12:10
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Dealer fined for selling "one owner" ex hire car - Mapmaker
