Another press report says that the elderly couple driving the Subaru with the caravan were in their 80's.
Could that have added to their confusion?
Pat
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I'd already seen the video. I think there is a bit more than confusion going on the drive against the traffic flow at that kind of speed. The driver must have been having some kind of delusionary bout and probably was pretty unaware of the danger he/she was in. It must have been absolutely terrifying for the poor passenger, with no means of avoiding the situation.
I was talking with someone the other night about how difficult it must be when you accept you can't drive any more, and that realisation is only likely to come after a near miss of some kind.
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>> Could that have added to their confusion?
Caravan has door on wrong side for a UK type. Looks like a Trigano or similar with an elevating roof, popular in Germany.
Do we know where they entered the M40? Is the signage confusing?
Can sort of understand how people end up on wrong carriageway on a quiet motorway in small hours but the M40 mid afternoon on Monday? Was the driver incapacitated in some way.
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The Subaru had foreign plates but I'm not sure which country they were from.
Pat
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The Subaru had foreign plates but I'm not sure which country they were from.
Incidentally, the M40 has just been closed again within the last 30 minutes with another accident.
What is it with that motorway?
Pat
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>> Incidentally, the M40 has just been closed again within the last 30 minutes with another
>> accident.
>>
>> What is it with that motorway?
Couldn't possibly be the people driving on it?
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I'm always surprised how people end up going the wrong down a mway, the junctions seem so counter intuitive to use the wrong way
Yet, i suppose, there's a steady number that manages it. Most have been doubly difficult with a caravan.
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Nearly all who achieve it at either gaga or under the influence of drugs or alcohol.
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Of course, I still find it surprising.
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I guess there are more drivers in those categories than you thought. Have only one experience of it myself. Very scary. Honda Jazz on the M11 near Stansted. Luckily he was stopped before he killed someone.
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I was going into Fleet Services Eastbound one morning in the lorry and met a car coming down the slip road towards me.
I managed to position myself in the middle so he had no option but to stop and reverse.
Pat
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Good man , lucky you had a big enough vehicle to stop an accident .
Out of interest was it an English owned vehicle and what sort of age.
What was their explanation
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It was an English vehicle but any more than that I couldn't tell you.
They reversed back up and into the car park, and I went around the back to the lorry park so I didn't speak to them at all.
Pat
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Your probably right CGN, having never been in either of the three categories it's a lack of imagination on my behalf no doubt.
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It could be Duncan but in all honesty, those same drivers have probably joined it from other motorways without incident.
It has a very high rate of accidents, incidents and closures compared to others.
Pat
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Supposing, for some mad reason, you suddenly notice that all the other traffic is coming towards you at an approach speed of 150 mph.
Should you:
a) slow down, turn your hazzard lights on, sound your horn, pull over onto the hard shoulder and stop?
b) Press on, wondering why everyone else is driving the wrong way?
c) Press on, oblivious to the fact that anything might be wrong?
And as a passenger, would you advise any of those courses of action to the driver, or just sit back contentedly, knowing you are in safe hands?
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On the other hand if you were very old and wanted to end your life together.......
Just a thought.
Pat
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"On the other hand if you were very old and wanted to end your life together......."
So why didn't they just drive to Poland? Perhaps they were, just going the wrong way...
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>> Can sort of understand how people end up on wrong carriageway on a quiet motorway
>> in small hours but the M40 mid afternoon on Monday? Was the driver incapacitated in
>> some way.
>>
It's a doddle if you go the wrong way round a roundabout, or join at an exit slip that tees with another road. Have stopped myself doing it a couple of times when travelling foreign!
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Happens quite regularly on the A55 (Dual all the way from Chester to Holyhead) - we missed what turned out to be a fatal collision by the skin of our teeth last year...
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>Do we know where they entered the M40? Is the signage confusing?
I do, and it's a sod.
If you consider that perhaps they were coming along the A418 into the A40, perhaps on the wrong side, and then kept right at the roundabout, it would have happened fairly easily from there. Especially if you were unfamiliar with the area.
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Why the hell didn't they just pull over or stop. At least it would have only been an awful traffic jam for a while.
I have always thought those "crocodile teeth" devices at the entry to motorways and dual carriageways would prevent this sort of thing.
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Cheers Mark, I had a look at that junction. I can see why someone confused might end up going down there. It's not a very hard junction to go the wrong way on.
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The evasive actions taken by the innocent drivers in the video are astonishing. At that closing speed they are having to react instinctively.
Sadly of course they were not all as lucky.
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M9 Junction 2, near Linlithgow. About 5 years ago a young man, Eastern European, turned on to the off ramp & killed 2 adults & himself, the 2/3 kids in the back survived.
The road junction has had very few ££s spent on it but a right turn onto the off slip road is still possible - the on-ramp is 30 yards further south.
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>>Nearly all who achieve it at either gaga or under the influence of drugs or alcohol.
That is my guess possibly gaga.. They were driving the wrong way for too long to not identify the problem and stop asap.
>> The evasive actions taken by the innocent drivers in the video are astonishing.
>> At that closing speed they are having to react instinctively.
Plus the blue van seemed to " protect" the other car getting off the verge.
Unusually there was a wide ( soft) shoulder alongside the third lane that the Subaru could have parked on.
The van and lorry driver on the other carriageway were flashing their headlamps in an attempt to warn folks and aware of what was likely to happen. They too might have experienced shock.
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p.s
>>They were driving the wrong way for too long to not identify the problem and stop asap.
D Telegraph
"The Forester is thought to have joined the M40 at Junction 7, which is around six miles north of the crash site or Junction 8, which is 8.5 miles north.
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""The Forester is thought to have joined the M40 at Junction 7, which is around six miles north of the crash site or Junction 8, which is 8.5 miles north"
Surely the authorities KNOW that, even if the DT can only speculate. People would have reported it, and there are cameras on the motorways at junctions.
Either way it took a long time to happen...
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A sad incident but usually rare.
Many years ago, when I was driving in Cyprus (drives on left like UK) I saw one car coming on wrong way!
Due to very low number of cars on motorway there I easily managed to avoid a collission but in congested roads in UK such act would be fatal.
For some continental drivers it could be hard to drive on the opposite side of road.
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Let’s hope the police don’t do them for flashing their lights to warn people . Nothing would surprise me anymore
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I’ve been on the M25 within the last 2 months , when on the road signage , it’s flashed up between JUnc 10 and 7 ,†on coming vehicle “ , by the time I got to Junction 7 there was no vehicle and the signage stopped.
But are you telling me between the first sighting and crash they are no “overhead signage†where a warning could have been issued .
Imagine travelling at 70+ , and then travelling at 60 , that is a massive impact speed .
I like the suggestion of “alligator teeth†at the slip roads onto a motorway to prevent these accidents
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>> I like the suggestion of “alligator teeth†at the slip roads onto a motorway to prevent these accidents
I like Top Gear's invention.
youtu.be/d6AnXi2N_do?t=6m17s
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"A car which crashed killing three people after driving the wrong way on a motorway had been involved in a collision five days earlier, police have said."
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>> had been involved in a collision five days earlier,
www.oxfordmail.co.uk/news/16991449.m40-tragedy-police-name-one-of-three-people-killed-in-mondays-crash/
"The force confirmed it had received reports of a damage-only road traffic collision involving the Subaru Forester on October 10"
"The car is registered in the UK, despite earlier reports suggesting it was bearing a foreign number plate at the time of the M40 crash. "
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I finally got around to watching that video.
The video was recorded exactly at the Northbound Slip road to J7. The accident was right by J6.
That's 7 - 8 miles distance on a busy Motorway.
You cannot tell if he joined the Motorway at J7 for sure, but I suspect that he did since there are vehicles on the other carriageway flashing their lights in warning, kind of suggesting that they had just overtaken and seen him when presumably he was going slower.
If so, then I can see how it happened. Assuming the following link works...
www.google.cl/maps/@51.7239557,-1.0594343,3a,72.2y,60.72h,75.91t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sYQSOufHXc6E0vdbwsx8BZA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=en
Coming along the A329, you can see a slip road arriving on your right with obvious give-way and no entry signs.
However, immediately after that and opposite the sign on the left saying to turn right for London is the other half of the slip road coming up for those wishing to turn right towards Thame, with only one no entry sign which is side on and not obvious, albeit it does also have a give-way triangle on the road.
I reckon he turned right there.
And you can see why someone older, tired, distracted, on unfamiliar roads and in the rain could do that. I'd rather have seen the sign on the left 100 yards further along because as it stands it is pointing right down the wrong slip road.
I once almost turned onto the wrong carriageway around there but hit the brakes at the last minute. I'm not sure it was that junction, it might have been the other side, but I get it.
However, quite why he then drove 8 miles without pulling over is beyond me.
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>> I reckon he turned right there.
Yes, I reckon you are right. Poor signage/junction layout combined with tired/confused driver.
Last edited by: VxFan on Thu 18 Oct 18 at 19:09
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>> >> I reckon he turned right there.
>> >>
>>
>> Yes, I reckon you are right. Poor signage/junction layout combined with tired/confused driver.
Add to the the sat nav saying "in 50 yards turn right" its very poor layout
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You'd be looking out for a right turn, as indicated by signs and Satnav.
You'd spot the clearly-marked No Entry, so pass that, then come to the one with large signboard opposite it pointing right.
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I can see how that could happen but it doesn't explain why they carried on for 6+ miles. or indeed how they were able to?
Pat
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>> I can see how that could happen but it doesn't explain why they carried on
>> for 6+ miles. or indeed how they were able to?
>>
When something like this happens it takes up so much mental capacity that they can't see what needs to be done. Especially when we day to day don't really think how to do routine activities we just do it from memory. We know somethings wrong but don'tknow what to do.
That spare capacity to stop, revaluate and then carry it out just isn't there, when they carry out a wrong course of action but don't know what to do to stop and change add in old age, confusion etc.
Probably no police to get there quick enough probably all over in less than 10 minutes.
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That's probably spot on what happened Sooty, I hadn't looked at it like that.
As far as facts speaking for themselves, that is true but as yet we don't actually have any facts, just a lot of speculation.
Pat
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Of course we have facts.
The driver was over 80
He drove down a mototorway the wrong way for a number of miles.
That the two were unrelated and that the driver’s mental ability was not the issue seems inconceivable. He’s should never have been driving.
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Of course, we have those two facts but know nothing of any medical history of either of the people in the Subaru, we know nothing of events leading up to the accident.
As is often the case, far more will be known when the investigations are complete and even then, it may well not be conclusive.
Pat
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>>we know nothing of events leading up to
>> the accident.
>>
I think we do actually. Apparently the car had been involved in an accident a few days previously, and according to some reports the police referred themselves for further investigation.
It sounds a bit odd, but the circumstances might have some relevance to the driver's capabilities or state of mind?
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The facts speak for themselves
They were too old and befuddled to been driving. A lesson to everyone.
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What a horrible lesson though.
I have this mental image of an older couple enjoying their life in a relaxed way. Pots of tea sat outside their caravan, that sort of thing.
Then they make a mistake and die. And one assumes that the last 10 minutes or so must have been horrendous. (I am not forgetting that some other poor soul also died)
Just awful.
I hope I have the sense, and the strength, to stop driving when the time comes. But I quite understand what a difficult thing that is to do.
So sad.
Last edited by: No FM2R on Fri 19 Oct 18 at 11:52
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>> I can see how that could happen but it doesn't explain why they carried on for 6+ miles. or indeed how they were able to?
Presumably there are no motorway cameras on the particular stretch of M40 they were travelling along to give investigators a clue where they joined the motorway, or for how long.
Hopefully other drivers with dash cam footage will eventually come forward to give a clearer picture of what actually happened.
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There's a couple on youtube. I'm not sure there's much more to understand about "what". Why and perhaps how would seem the important things.
I am informed that it was that junction I screwed up at. Assuming that's true, and assuming that it was the junction involved in this incident, that sign really needs to be moved.
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According to Daily Mail (online) seems the couple in the Subaru were British and from the Home Counties.
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Yes, hence my suggestion of Tue 16 Oct 18 17:16 and insistence that we don't yet have all the facts.
Pat
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The couple, from High Wycombe, were only identified today due to issues with finding relatives.
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The Daily Mail article mentioned by RP, while expansive about the other fatality, says very little about the couple in the Subaru other than that lived in High Wycombe. Even if no relatives it's quite surprising there's no comment sought from neighbours.
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...did it mention how much their house was worth?
Last edited by: Bill Payer on Tue 23 Oct 18 at 11:16
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>> ...did it mention how much their house was worth?
They did mention the name of their house "Dream Cum Tru"
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How does the fact that the couple came from High Wycombe help us understand the cause of the accident any better? What other factsdo we need other than an elderly driver drove the wrong way for a number of miles down a motorway and killed somebody.
In Canada the slip road exits from Highways have a very large red sign stating “Wrong Wayâ€. Perhaps that might help.
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It's a bit like so called mis-fuelling. I've never done it and never even come close to, so I find it very difficult to comprehend how anyone else would. But, I do know people, who seem otherwise sensible, who have done it. Temporary brain fade I suppose. Translate that moment to a driving situation and I guess that explains why these seemingly crazy and tragic scenarios can happen.
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>> How does the fact that the couple came from High Wycombe help us understand the
>> cause of the accident any better?
>>
>>
I think it's to demonstrate that the driver was British, had a home in Britain, and therefore would normally be presumed to be familiar with driving on British roads.
It had earlier been suggested that the car, and perhaps driver, were foreign, and so less familiar with British roads, particularly badly signposted ones.
Which comes back to reinforce your point.
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I don't think anyone has mentioned blood sugar levels. Low sugar is insidious and can cause confusion among other things. No doubt there are a host of other medical problems that can effect driving ability, I know a couple who have had their driving licences revoked due to what is to me mild dementia of some sort.
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>>
>> In Canada the slip road exits from Highways have a very large red sign stating
>> “Wrong Wayâ€.
I met one of those in Ireland many years ago. It didn't mean no entry, it meant that this was a minor route and not the main road that most people would be wanting. A variation on the "I wouldn't be starting from here" style of direction advice. :)
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There is something about "Wrong Way" which has a much clearer and more immediate effect than the normal No Entry sign.
Of course, again if it was the junction I mentioned, just putting the existing signs in the right place and facing the right way would also help.
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I now find that when I'm driving/riding in a strange area to me, that the lack of road markings and dirty/obscured signage is becoming increasingly dangerous.
Since I've been working for the NHS and driving in Wrexham (for instance) and dependant on Sat Nav that finding road markings street signs is critical.
Last edited by: VxFan on Thu 5 Sep 19 at 10:13
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>> I now find that when I'm driving/riding in a strange area to me, that the
>> lack of road markings and dirty/obscured signage is becoming increasingly dangerous.
>>
>> Since I've been working for the NHS and driving in Wrexham (for instance) and dependant
>> on Sat Nav that finding road markings street signs is critical.
>>
And no doubt the local residents expect you to have the same knowledge of local interpretations of the Highway Code and road layouts as themselves.
Last edited by: VxFan on Thu 5 Sep 19 at 10:13
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Hahaha..true enough ! Myway Code seems to be the rule in certain parts of the town.
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I’ve only towed a caravan once and only for about 5 miles for a friend but there are several things I can’t comprehend .
I can’t understand how going down a slip road, there weren’t car s , vans or lorries going up it , that would be very unusual especially at that time of day
Then they would have joined on the “inside lane†, so on joining the M40 at a minimum. 100 mph impact speed , they managed to get into the “outside†lane , that is an incredible bit of skilful driving , I would hate to Try doing that , whilst towing a caravan And having cars hurtling towards you at probably 120mph , the fact they managed to do it for 7/8 miles .
So sorry for the young guy who lost his life , but this couple were local to the motorway and should have known all about it .
Very sad
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>> I’ve only towed a caravan once and only for about 5 miles for a friend
>> but there are several things I can’t comprehend .
>> I can’t understand how going down a slip road, there weren’t car s , vans
>> or lorries going up it
I tow a caravan regularly and have taken it the length and breadth of France. Off down to Buckinghamshire with it this afternoon. I've occasionally misread signposts, once ending up in the Highways Depot at South Mimms services. Fun and games reversing into the gateway to turn around. I was a newbie at time and hadn't really mastered the steering inputs needed to reverse the 'van.
Irrespective of towing I cannot understand how you can, wrong way, get past top of slip without realising your mistake. To then try and solve the problem by apparently ploughing on for miles against on coming traffic beggars belief.
We'll probably have to wait for inquests for there to be a full explanation, at least of probabilities. Tracing the driver was clearly a problem but now they have one hopes accounts from their contacts and medical records will throw some light.
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Another car going the wrong way, not far from the previous incident.
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-oxfordshire-47210249
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Wrong-way fatal M40 crash driver 'had cancer in brain'
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-oxfordshire-47895592
In February - at the same junction - another driver joined the motorway in the wrong direction and new temporary signs have now been installed.
Mrs Howard's cousin Peter Weatherill said the second incident "highlights that more needs to be done than just putting up a couple of signs".
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M40 crash: dead after caravan travels wrong way - Pat
