This is a slightly belated follow up to my report in July 2015 after owning the above car for just over a year...www.car4play.com/forum/post/index.htm?t=20277&v=f
I'd bought a 2002 BMW E39 5-series 525D Tourer to replace a much enjoyed Alfa 156 2.4D because we needed a large loadspace for uni runs and carry boating gear. The BMW we found was basically in good order but with a few niggles and some catch up maintenance required which I carried out in the initial period as detailed in the link above.
I can hardly believe it's virtually 4yrs since I bought this car and for something that cost under £2k back then it's given service of a car costing 10x more.
We had decided to change it this month as the loadspace and interior size is no longer essential to us... but I test drove a non-premium car 10yrs newer (see note 2) and it was so unrefined in comparison we have decided to keep the E39 another year and see what car needs we have then.
I keep full records and thought the work needed to keep the BMW in top condition might be of interest.
You can take it as read it's had a fully syn oil/filter change each year with the other filters etc changed according to mileage.
There was no more work needed in 2015 above that reported in the link above.
During 2016 it needed a pair of rear tyres and I kept to matching Dunlops. I replaced a cracked foglamp with one from Ebay. Fitted new aux drivebelts and front brake pads. It failed its summer 2016 MOT on rear brake effort so I fitted new rear discs, pads and handbrake shoes to get it spot on... then it passed with no advisories. On a whim I removed the EGR to clean and check it's operation.
In 2017 I fitted new front tyres, Dunlops again. I had to re-polish one headlamp as it had gone cloudy again after being done in 2014. One rear suspension upper link had play so I replaced both. Also replaced one front wheel bearing which started to drone. At the summer MOT when they did the test that raises the body on its suspension the nearside rear airbag split on full extension so that was a fail. I replaced it and received a pass with no advisories. The final thing that year was a dealer driver's airbag recall. Not great service from the main dealer but perhaps I was regarded as well down the pecking order with a 15yr old car?
One aspect that has kept me on my toes is the airbag system throwing the fault lamp on. Initially I had a problem passed on by the previous owner which turned out to be a high resistance on one of the driver airbag connections which I resolved. Then carrying a load on the front seat shorted out the passenger sensor mat but that reset OK. Then it threw up several passenger airbag codes which reset a couple of times but then the light stuck on.
Eventually I sorted it late 2017. When the dealer replaced the driver's airbag under recall I asked them to diagnose the passenger side fault thinking as the experts they would easily nail it (even if at great cost) but they were useless. This prompted me to take it away and refuse to pay for them not achieving anything... then I bought two £25ish Ebay used airbag ECUs (two as I thought the chance of getting one that worked first time was slim and I preferred to hit the job all in one). Both were U/S so returned for refund. I ordered and tested two more at similar prices... both perfect so fitted one and kept the other as a spare. The light hasn't come back in many months so I'm calling that a result.
Now in 2018 and having decided to run it another year I will replace the rear suspension lower links and ball joints which while not bad enough to fail the July MOT are a little worn. One side completed and doing the other in a moment. Also I'm putting a new suspension airspring on the o/s rear to match the one that I fitted after the original n/s burst last year. It's not leaking but we carry a hell of a holiday load and I'd hate that to go halfway to Cornwall.
So it's now a 16yr old car worth peanuts... but... it's totally rust free... all the complex electronic systems are working... the quality interior has stood up to the years... and it's still a superbly refined rewarding load carrier.
Note.1: Zero you asked about diagnostics. I have a software based version of the BMW system on a spare laptop. Sourced from Cableshack www.cable-shack.co.uk/ If they do one that covers your car it's good value and Jimmy at Cableshack is a BMW enthusiast and very helpful. This system is very very in depth and on occasions far more complex than you need. So I also have an iCarsoft handheld which can be carried in the glovebox for an on-holiday issue... www.scantool-direct.co.uk/icarsoft-bm-ii-bmw-and-mini-multi-system-diagnostic-tool.html Mine is a slightly earlier version but very similar... you'd have to check if it covered your car.
Note.2: Above I referred to testing a potential replacement of a "non-premium" car 10yrs newer. I'd made the decision to replace the BMW a few weeks back and went ready to buy this seemingly suitable car. They let me out on my own to test drive it and it brought home how we under appreciated just how well this old 5-series stands up to more modern vehicles. For all the heated leather seats, big alloys, chrome roof rails, integral satnav/reverse camera etc the "mystery" car was so unrefined and not at all rewarding to drive I handed it back with mumbled thanks and drove home deciding there and then to run the BMW on for some time.
Note.3: Humph sorry but I still miss the Alfa's beautiful front wheel drive handling.
Last edited by: Fenlander on Sat 14 Apr 18 at 11:14
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What was the mystery car you test drove?
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Good to read that. Just goes to show that if you have the skills and confidence to carry out that level of maintenance that you can get real value from a car.
As we've discussed before, although vehicles that size and configuration aren't always absolutely necessary, the occasions when they prove very useful, for me anyway, far outweigh any downsides. Except perhaps reducing the number of excuses not to go to IKEA, sometimes it feels like it's probably worth getting a smaller car just to avoid that. ;-)
I do also totally get your reluctance to change, I think maybe there comes a stage in life when you know what you want and what you don't, and if you already have what you want and it still makes sense, than why move to something you would feel was compromised in some way.
A friend of ours has 5 series estate of similar vintage to yours which he uses as a van really for his part time house renovation "business". It gets fairly abused but seems to soldier on year after year. Pretty strong cars it would seem.
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The mystery car will never be revealed... I don't want to wind up anyone who runs one.
The 5-series downside for me and the only one really is it's length now I don't need the loadspace. Less spaces in town that suit and at home it touches an essential storage unit at the front of the garage and at the rear the door almost closes on the bumper. The far side wall is fully racked with hundreds of items I need most days and you can't get round either of the ends to reach them. With a shorter car like daughters Jazz/Polo the garage works fine so I'd thought of getting something just a bit bigger than a Golf.
>>>Pretty strong cars it would seem.
Indeed and I speak from the position of previously looking after a C-class of the same age and our 2007 CLK... it's a fact that the 2002 BMW is better built from the perspective of working on the oily bits.. some beautiful engineering touches that could so easily have been cost cut.
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Talking of older well screwed together motors, as regular readers know I bought a 2004 330 convertible when it was 6 yo. Regrettably sold when it could no longer accommodate two oldies ( excluding me). It never missed a beat..annual oil and filter change, maybe one or possibly two major services in my 6 years of ownership, and sold to my nephew for £5k in 2016 ( I paid £9950 for it)
My brother is running it at the moment as his son has borrowed Dads Subaru Grovel estate. We met yesterday at the funeral of a friend and he was grinning like a Cheshire cat ( not you Runfer) wh3n he got out of it. My brother is just driving it around for fun, roof down, heater on, and appreciating the howl when it’s revved through the lower gears. He’d MOTd it for his son, sailed through at 14yo with no advisories, and the guy at the garage was singing his praises of that particular engine. I think it still looks a million dollars, sounds lovely, goes like stink and if I could ever justify two cars I’d have it back in a heartbeat.
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Thanks Fenlander. Very interesting.
Personally, I think I could deal with all of the mechanical repairs you mentioned, but the airbag issue would have stretched me. If it wasn't airbags, I'm sure there are other complex electronics that could throw a wobbly and I guess that's what would put off most potential owners without your knowledge.
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>>> the airbag issue would have stretched me.
Perhaps but the laptop dealer level diagnostics are excellent in guiding you through the process.
So your airbag light pops on. Get the diagnostic plugged in and (in my case) it says pass airbag short to earth. Substitute a known good airbag (I bought a used one for £20) and/or substitute a resistor in place of the airbag and recheck codes. I did both and the short to earth code remained proving it wasn't the airbag itself.
Then the diagnostic screen has a fault flowchart which next advises checking the wiring from airbag to ECU for short/continuity. Do that and find the wiring fine so refer to the flowchart again and it says if wiring OK change ECU. I did that and it was sorted.
So it leads you pretty well through the process even if you have no prior understanding of the specific system in the car.
>>>mostly what your post describes is that great care and research needs to go into obtaining parts that will work with a particular year and version of modern car, and the tools to integrate them.
Did you mean re physical parts or diagnostic software?
Last edited by: Fenlander on Sun 15 Apr 18 at 15:23
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The E39 is widely regarded as the best 5-series. Impeccable quality, and a mechanical feel that eludes more modern BMWs. I'd hang on to it.
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I think mostly what your post describes is that great care and research needs to go into obtaining parts that will work with a particular year and version of modern car, and the tools to integrate them.
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You could perhaps, without having to hurry, keep a look-out for a well-looked after 3-series Touring: same rewards in terms of driving pleasure and quality, but a better fit for your garage.
But of course any used BMW is a high risk, and keeping this one going makes a lot of sense unless and until it goes too expensively wrong.
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>> You could perhaps, without having to hurry, keep a look-out for a well-looked after 3-series
>> Touring: same rewards in terms of driving pleasure and quality, but a better fit for
>> your garage.
There is a definite step up in quality in the BMW range when you get to the 5. Although the 1 and 3 are both perfectly well put together, they feel very much built to a price after a 5. I say that as a happy 1 series, and serial 3-series driver.
Last edited by: DP on Mon 16 Apr 18 at 18:10
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Excellent and interesting post.
I loved my E39 estate as well, though I had the 2.8 petrol.
Last edited by: No FM2R on Mon 16 Apr 18 at 02:24
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Very pleased you've had such a good experience with this car and I hope that continues for another year - but if it throws an expensive fault could you let go, or would you just stand the cost?
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>>> if it throws an expensive fault could you let go, or would you just stand the cost?
Its been an unexpectedly great car for us but cars are transient so letting go will be no problem when factors align. In fact I'd already mentally let it go when I happily agreed a £600 trade in (half its private value but £600 more than I needed to get) just prior to the test drive of the rejected mystery car.
Re what failure would trigger giving up on it...
No rust now so structure probably 10yrs in it. Engine & gearbox ought to go 10yrs too. I don't wear clutches so there should be 5yrs+ still in its original clutch. Suspension has had all the most difficult bits done.
All other parts such as brakes, smaller suspension joints, door locks, window motors are fairly cheap/easy so they'd not finish it.
Electronics as I've found out can be sorted with used units (like my Ebay £25 airbag ECU that would have been about £800 diagnosed and fitted by BMW).
I guess the one thing that might make me cough would be turbo failure and £800 or so for a rebuilt exchange... but that's about the only thing I can think of.... and with quality regularly changed oil plus hard driving I think that's unlikely for a good while yet.
Last edited by: Fenlander on Wed 18 Apr 18 at 08:15
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Think I've mentioned before - my indie mechanic has a client who has had a Volvo T5 estate from new and is still going.
No matter what the repair needed, it gets done. By doing this then his theory is that he will never be hit with a huge MOT failure list that will all need done at one time and that puts doubt in his mind over the economics of keeping it going. Owner apparently still loves the car, its practical, its known to him, the indie knows it and no individual repair cost is ever going to be dearer than replacing the car.
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>> my indie mechanic has a client who has had a Volvo T5 estate from new and is still going.
So it's like Trigger's broom then :-)
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The V5 is original.........
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It's refreshing to read of someone relaxed and confident about running an old car, particularly an old diesel. All the emphasis is on middle aged cars can throw such expensive problems, so you need to move on before that happens. I know there are not many people who have the skills to look after a car like you, but perhaps using a good independent could still make it a practical option.
I've been very pleased with the Octavia Scout I have on lease - no car is perfect, but it meets our needs so well that I've extended the lease from 2 years to 3 and have been thinking about buying the car and running it long term, as that will be an option in March next year. I know some people would think that's mad, but it has the 'wet' DSG and with a fluid change at 4 years they are supposed to be more reliable. It's had 'premium fuel most of the time and the majority of journeys include a blast up the Fosse Way, so hopefully DPF problems should be less likely. So, I'm really not sure how risky it would be .....
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I suppose the irony, as with most things in life, is that it's only really risky if you can't afford the risk. From what Fenlander has told us, he could comfortably walk away from this car if he had to, and just replace it with either a new one or another project.
A similar car, run by someone who simply couldn't afford for it to go expensively wrong, would be an entirely different thing.
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Wise words Runfer! Bit like you always want cars you can't afford and when you can afford them, you don't want them anymore - or is that just me?
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No, I think that's pretty normal Paul. For about three decades I coveted a Morgan. I knew I'd have one sooner or later, I also knew exactly what it would look like, navy bodywork with chrome wire wheels and a black hood and interior.
Now that I could actually afford one, I don't want one anymore. Not even slightly.
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Not normal for me. When I could finally, and unexpectedly, own a Porsche, it’s more than living up to all of my incredibly high expectations.
Barbie jokes aside, even after 18 months of ownership every time I fire it up and the 3.0 V6 comes to life it brings a smile to my face.
Last Wednesday I drove up to the Galloway area, dumped it in Newton Stewart and caught buses to Portpatrick where over 5 days we walked the first 80 miles of the Southern Upland Way. Some car ferrying around to leave it deep on forest tracks to enable our linear walks, spirited driving around the area and a thrash down the M6 to Kendal last night was, for me, an enjoyable part of the trip.
I don’t regret spending all of my late aunts bequest on it for one second. Not a sound financial move but stuff that !
Last edited by: legacylad on Tue 23 Apr 19 at 08:48
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Same with most stuff. When you can afford it it no longer seems desirable.
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Except Creme Eggs though, I mean, they're not dear, but they are desirable, Jaffa Cakes too come to think. ;-)
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Nope. Both completely horrible whatever your financial status.
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You don't like Jaffa Cakes?
Wow, weird or what?
You can even use them as part of your five a day, they've got oranges in them.
;-)
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No need I get all my citrus requirements from marmalade
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Where are you on shortbread then? Especially when dunked in black coffee.
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Shortbread is OK but I've just had an Eccles cake down the garden centre, the spiritual home of retirees, and reaffirmed my belief that they are indeed the food of the gods
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I always tell myself I want a Belgian Bun - can't think why - but in fact I prefer an Eccles cake.
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Fly's cemeteries (according to my late Grandfather)
He had a way with words.
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That’s Garibaldi biscuits surely.
Why are they named after an Italian general anyway. Was old Giuseppe particularly fond of currants?
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I was at school with a Gary Baldry.
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Ah, Long John’s brother.
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The boss went to see Long John Baldry at Batley Variety Club when Elton John was nobbut his piano player.
What were we talking about?
I remember. The cakes of Eccle. For some reason they go very well in our community shop.
Last edited by: Manatee on Wed 18 Apr 18 at 19:30
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Fenlander's BMW I think. If we start talking about that again now, I shouldn't think anyone will notice the food diversion. Still reeling from the news that there are people who don't like Jaffa Cakes though, it'll take a while to get over that. ;-)
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My mum was from Edinburgh, and one day in my childhood we were up there staying with her family, and we went on a trip round the McVities' factory. Jaffa cakes expand in the cooking process, and I still remember the guide pointing to the conveyor belt with them just before that, saying 'Dinnae ye say they're wee'. Inevitably someone did.
That's what Fenlander needs - a BMW that expands and contracts as required (VxFan should be proud of me for that connection....)
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Don't know Forgotten. Anyone seen my glasses?
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Very partial to the odd packet or two of Jaffa cakes. Particularly when a twin-pack is on offer around £1-50... shortbread gets a thumbs up too... but neither for dunking.
>>>it's only really risky if you can't afford the risk
Yes spot on. The very fact we haven't spent £20k on my car or £300/mth leasing means that even with a big ticket item it's still very affordable.
>>>I've been very pleased with the Octavia Scout.
That's good.... I've always looked at them with interest. Funnily enough having declared to Mrs F on the day I test drove the mystery car that I thought spending on the 525 had come to a natural end.... and then arriving back saying it's potential replacement was no good Mrs F said just get online to Ling and order a 2yr lease of something sensible like an Octavia Estate then see where we are after that period. But by then my brain had re-engaged with the BMW and I'd already started planning the small amount of jobs it needed.
>>> a blast up the Fosse Way.
A relative term surely... unless at night. On the way to our family... heading for Moreton then a few miles to the right... we never whoosh past you... more sit in a resigned state of "behind the fruit stall/garden centre pensioners".
Last edited by: Fenlander on Wed 18 Apr 18 at 23:53
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Moreton can be very busy at times, but north of Moreton on the Fosse can be a good run - several manufacturers seem to use it as part of their route for press launches.
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Of course in the virtual world my 525 could be described so far above reality and be a pile of cr... so some pics from the past couple of days after a DIY valet... the last step in the "it's staying" process.
The way the body and interior have withstood... multiple piled to the roof uni runs... dozens of tip runs... spending a month as a plumber's/decorator's wagon when I refurbed a flat for parents... no attempts at defensive parking... well it shows no signs of hard use.
Excuse the nerdish number plate blanking.. but it's personal ha ha.
Exterior shots plus refurbed rear lights comparison... the tailgate ones get a milky grey look over time on these E39s.
Excuse the weeds outside friends house!
tinypic.com/r/28bacgj/9
tinypic.com/r/2sb7uv4/9
tinypic.com/r/2sb7uv4/9
Hope these links work as there'll be little time to sort them in the short edit period.
Last edited by: Fenlander on Fri 20 Apr 18 at 14:21
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Yep links seem to work so here is the interior. Marks on the loadspace carpet are just the vacuuming pattern.
I know some folks find the light leather and burr walnut finish a bit living room but it's exactly what I like.
tinypic.com/r/34t3dvt/9
tinypic.com/r/fwtvl4/9
tinypic.com/r/2cgoums/9
Last edited by: Fenlander on Fri 20 Apr 18 at 14:26
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Oops in the first of the image posts doubled up on the rear view and missed the light refurb.... and now I've lost the link on Tinypic. No matter.
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>> Yep links seem to work so here is the interior. Marks on the loadspace carpet
>> are just the vacuuming pattern.
>>
>> I know some folks find the light leather and burr walnut finish a bit living
>> room but it's exactly what I like.
>>
>> tinypic.com/r/34t3dvt/9
>>
>> tinypic.com/r/fwtvl4/9
>>
>> tinypic.com/r/2cgoums/9
>>
What is that man doing on the lavatory in the car?
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>>>What is that man doing on the lavatory in the car?
Am I being thick... you will have to enlighten me.
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>> >>>What is that man doing on the lavatory in the car?
>>
>> Am I being thick... you will have to enlighten me.
>>
Under the main photo, it says "Images you may also enjoy", with 4 photos and one of the photos was of a car with a toilet where the front passenger seat would be, and a man sitting on the toilet with his trousers round his ankles. I assumed it was one of your, er, more intimate family snaps.
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Lovely looking motor. The best of the lot.
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>> Lovely looking motor. The best of the lot.
Pfftttt clearly you have not seen my G31
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Lovely looking car. It's a while since I've driven an E39, but I do remember the quality just oozing out of them. They really are a cut above the mainstream.
You haven't said the mileage, but I can't imagine many other cars that aren't pampered garage queens looking this fresh at 16 years old. Those carpets look like they came out of the factory last week.
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Thanks DP.
Re driving one... they are a little bit past era in feel with far more softened responses than a modern front wheel drive estate like a Mondeo. But settle into their way and the relaxed refinement is impressive.
Forgot to mention mileage... a modest for its age 150k.
Re carpets etc.... I think there are two variations on what folks would call quality... the actual quality of any individual material and the way it's engineered into the rest of the car... and the way quality is often used more as a gadget count.
It's the materials quality of this car that impresses such as the carpets and the OE carpet mats... straight cut pile that shrugs off dirt both when vacuumed and when washed. Then as an example of mechanical parts the rear subframe is welded alloy and a work of art.
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I do believe that your motor is even more presentable than my equally ancient, one owner, Japanese barge. Not bad, considering yours has covered three times the mileage of mine.
Indeed a credit to you and its previous owners.
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Totally agree about the carpets...my 2004 (E46?) 330 had lovely quality carpets and OE mats. Almost like new even when I sold it in 2016.
Grey leather upholstery with matching carpets....the only thing I didn’t like about that car were the unheated seats first thing on a winters morning. Never had a squeak or rattle from the folding roof. I’m going to miss it ( again) this summer...
Still better looking than all the newer folding 3 series tin tops with its immaculate blue fabric hood over unblemished silver paintwork.
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The other very helpful thing, in my experience of running old BMWs, is that spares availability is good. BMW seem to support their older cars much longer than some other manufacturers.
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Yep easy spares availability makes a massive difference running an older car. Between BMW, Eurocarparts, online breakers and various Ebay sellers there is a massive choice of quality and prices.
>>>Under the main photo, it says "Images you may also enjoy", with 4 photos and one of the photos was of a car with a toilet where the front passenger seat would be, and a man sitting on the toilet with his trousers round his ankles. I assumed it was one of your, er, more intimate family snaps.
Ahh understood... I think those extra images are targeted... no toilet for me but mine include a nice Rolex and a girl in a tight T-shirt with unfeasibly large boobs.
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Well just a month short of 5yrs ownership and the BMW has gone to an excited new owner.
Put it up for sale and within 48hrs a guy had driven up to Cambridgeshire from Bristol with his E39 experienced dad. A 10ml test run later and I had their cash and off they went. It made £1400 which was just £500 less than I pair those 5yrs ago and double its nominal backstop value in my head.
I've never had a car that long before which says loads about the build quality and underlying capability of the E39. That flexible smooth 6cyl diesel and it's mile eating cruising ability when stuffed with gear were the two outstanding aspects.
The replacement Mondeo is fine but it's still the plan to get a nice E61 with the 6cyl diesel when Mrs F joins me in retirement 3yrs hence. But who knows... plans... reality... things change??
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BMW 5-Series E39 - My bargain E39 5-series BMW - 4yrs on. - sooty123
