Well the Rav4 had done a fair mileage, diesel and the warranty was expiring so I decided to change. Also a chant win circumstances means less miles and need for a four wheel drive. As I need an auto thanks to ligament damage that means no VW group cars for a start. I am not convinced of the reliability of French cars especially in the electrical area. Expensive German cars, well, been there done that. As my experience with Toyota has been near faultless over the six I have owned and the excellent dealer is just a few miles away it was an easy choice.
I now have an Avensis estate with the 1.8 auto running gear. Two years old with 10k on the clock. It is a Business Edition Plus which means leather and a few toys. Very quiet and smooth compared to the Rav with its noticeable engine and firm suspension, but a little less elbow room and of course car rather than SUV characteristics. In principle I have swapped for an extra three years warranty with 60k less miles on the clock for under £5k.
I was amazed when I phoned LV to swap the insurance over, I am halfway through the policy as it happens. I was expecting an admin fee etc, but was amazed to receive a refund as it was less to insure - £30.86! Stone me!
I believe Jeremy Clarkson, somebody I generally find easy to ignore, once described this car (or maybe it was another Toyota?) as what you drive whilst waiting to die. Despite that judgement, I am very pleased with the change and after all of 150 miles find the car very agreeable.
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Re VAG DSGs, are they all bad or just some of them?
They sell a hell of a lot of them, are all the buyers stupid?
Think there is currently in excess of 30000 VAG autos for sale on Autotrader.
Re Avensis, is this a CVT box similar to what they use in their hybrids?
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The man with the hat regularly gives advice on the VAG auto boxes. I believe it is the dry plate clutches that are the worst but I may be wrong. However with the size of the bill that can arrive if one does go wrong, combined with a manufacturer that lies and cheats on an international scale why would you?
The Avensis auto is indeed a CVT. I guess the principle is the same with regard to the hybrid but the driving experience is very different. I have had a 1.5 Prius before and did 100k+ miles in it. There is a distinct "rubber band" effect with the Prius, whereby the engine will rev when the accelerator is pressed but the road speed takes a little time to catch up. It is most peculiar at first.
The Avensis has fixed ratios and in effect functions like a TC box. The engine and transmission is much quieter and smoother than in my old Prius as well, with consistent speed increment without the racket under the bonnet. These boxes, indeed the cars themselves, have a reputation for longevity, which I hope to be able to confirm in time to come.
I might have been interested in the latest model of Prius as this is the first one that has back and forth steering wheel adjustment as well as up and down. This was a major problem for me, very tall, with my old Prius as after a couple of hours the awkward angle of seat back and body and shoulders slightly forward was very uncomfortable. However the latest model is still very expensive and the starship galactica styling is rather unappealing. I am not an Uber driver either!
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>> However with the size of the bill that can arrive if one does go wrong, combined with a manufacturer that lies and cheats on an international scale why would you?
Could it be that VAG diesel scandal was state sponsored? German diesels feature very good fuel economy which other (notably Japanese and Korean) makes never managed to match. May be it is impossible to achieve without cheating?
>> They sell a hell of a lot of them, are all the buyers stupid?
Not stupid but ignorant.
If we take statistics (if possible) between general public and car lovers (i.e. people who posts in forums like this) I am sure car lovers group would show disporportational number of low VAG ownership and high Japanese/Korean ownership numbers.
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I don’t class myself as either stupid or ignorant, I’ve had VWs all of the time I’ve driven, all Golfs, ranging through MK2, 4 and my current MK5.
I bought my current MK5 Golf from new back in 2006, it’s a diesel AND a DSG, not had any issues with the way it drives or performs.
As a car ‘lover’ I would pick a current GT3 over anything that Japan or Korea has to offer.
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I don’t know about a GT3 but the wife of a friend has a GT86 and loves it. Now it might be that she just loves the colour.... which is a sexist comment for which I apologise.
But it does look girly.
Like mine
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>>If we take statistics (if possible) between general public and car lovers (i.e. people who posts in forums like this) I am sure car lovers group would show disporportational number of low VAG ownership and high Japanese/Korean ownership numbers.<<
I suspect that is true. When looking at spending 26k in 2016 I didn't even look at a VAG product, I knew enough not to.
Most of the indie car dealers ive know over the years spent their own money on a Lexus, usually with starship miles.
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Absolute tosh. VAG cars are at least the equal of any other make. It has simply become fashionable to knock them somehow proving your credentials as a car expert. Have absolutely no problem with buying a VAG car and indeed have one at the moment. Most unreliablle car ever owned was a Toyota Corolla.
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So all the reported problems with DSG boxes are fake, the recalls are fake and actually they never go wrong. Ok then, its all a big conspiracy and there are a lot of liars out there.
Hope that makes you feel better now it has been cleared up.
Incidentally the most unreliable cars I know of are Land Rovers which make up half of the cars I clean and seem to be 100% unreliable across all model ranges judging by the epic sagas owners describe, made worse by unhelpful dealers. Nice looking things superficially though!
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>>Incidentally the most unreliable cars I know of are Land Rovers
My lottery car (one of them) is a Range Rover but I have also heard of so many reliability issues. I have personal experience of a LR Discovery Sport that the seat reclining wheel fell off on day one and after its third visit to the dealer for electrical gremlins it was dispatched back to the factory!
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>>I have personal experience of a LR Discovery Sport that the seat reclining wheel fell off on day one and after its third visit to the dealer for electrical gremlins it was dispatched back to the factory!<<
I think that one tops the list. I know of one which made a trip to the dealer every month for two years straight and another that spent more time at the dealer than with the customer - she chopped it in for an Evoque which has been somewhat better though that is a low bar!
Range Rovers aren't much better. I know of a 2012 one that went through three back axles in the time I knew it and a 2015 one that often fails to start at all.
I rather like them as a showroom product but seem to be pretty awful things to own, unless you have a second car to rely on and can take the pain of the high maintenance.
By contrast the many Jaguars I deal with are trouble free and much adored by their owners, although I have heard several complaints about the XKR being withdrawn from sale as the older owners find the F-Type a bit juvenile and loud in comparison.
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> My lottery car (one of them) is a Range Rover but I have also heard
>> of so many reliability issues. I have personal experience of a LR Discovery Sport that the seat reclining wheel fell off on day one and after its third visit to the dealer for electrical gremlins it was dispatched back to the factory!
Not half, about ten years ago I was involved with running a fleet of about sixty discos out in the bondu. Awful things one fault after another nearly all electronic or electrical problems. There wasn't one single type of fault, it was pretty much everything. Windows, door locks, immobilisers, headlights, false dash warnings. I think it had every type of electronic fault regularly. Getting parts was more than a little tricky so doubley a pita.
The imported mitsubishi pajeros were smaller in number in fairness but I honestly can't remember a single fault with them. Not add nice inside for sure.
Both fleets got used regularly off road and on road no real difference in capabilities. Put me off LRs.
Last edited by: sooty123 on Mon 29 Jan 18 at 19:53
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Of course they aren't fake and of course VAG cars go wrong but other makes also have their fair share of problem. Personally I have owned a Skoda Octavia or five years and am on my third Golf. The first two Golfs I had for five years each with no significant problems in about 50,000 on each. The Octavia I had for nearly six years and apart from wheel bearings I had no issues with it it.
I am not a mechanical person and so am thrown upon the mercies of the dealers for servicing. All vehicles have been maintained at the main dealers and I have never had anything less than fair dealing.
Now I am totally aware that the ownership of three vehicles does not constitute much of a statistical sample and for all I know every other VAG owner has nothing but a tale of woe to report but all I can say is that those cars have served me well.
As I say it had become rather fashionable to knock VWs but there is little real evidence that they are worse than any other make.
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>>As I say it had become rather fashionable to knock VWs but there is little real evidence that they are worse than any other make.<<
I chose not to look at one because I read many owners reports on them and decided it wasn't worth the risk as VAG seem to be using customers are part of their DSG development team ( I wanted an auto ). That and the reputation of dealers is not very good. That is just my judgement when spending my own money, others are free to do what they like, everyone is different.
I have found modern Toyota's to be pretty sound, although the Derby built ones can be a bit iffy, so I have stuck with Japanese built ones and they seem to be free of even minor niggles apart from a dopey sat nav system which doesn't bother me as I don't use it.
Some people do accept cars going wrong from time to time, not everyone is seeking that 100% reliability, even though its preferable - I very nearly bought an Alfa Guilia, I was so close but dealers put me off in the end and, well, its an Alfa...
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As I've mentioned in other threads I hopefully will be in the market for my next new car in a couple of years time.
Just to reassure people… it will be a VW… it will be a DSG.. and I will be bought it with my own money.. probably a Golf GTi or if they bring one out a proper high performance hybrid.
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I don't like the way a DSG operates, especially when coupled to auto hold and start stop in traffic. To me its an unpleasant experience.
So when I was lashing out a shed load of dosh on a new car, everything from the VAG stable was off the list.
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>> I very nearly bought an Alfa Guilia, I was so close but dealers put me off in the end and, well, its an Alfa Fiat/Chrysler ...
(*_*)
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>>Absolute tosh. VAG cars are at least the equal of any other make.
That may well be true but they hold themselves out to be better (remember the ad: "If everything in live were as reliable").
Then when it turns out they are not, then they deliberately cheat emissions tests and avoid using expensive Ad-blue tech and refuse to help drivers who have faults in their cars you start to get a picture that suggests that they are not as good as they make themselves out to be.
The latest news is that they have been deliberately gassing monkeys: www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-42858668
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>> Re VAG DSGs, are they all bad or just some of them?
About 20% of the ones on our fleet at a previous employer had issues, according to the fleet manager. More worrying than the frequency of the faults was the dealer network's apparent inability to diagnose and fix them.
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VAG
Had an ABS pump go on a Touran that we owned from new. 3 years, 2 months old and under 14,000 miles. Full dealer service history and "known problem" on the forums. VAG didn't want to know, no contribution, nothing.
That, and their holier than though attitude means I will steer clear which is a shame because I like the look of their SUVs.
Add to that, timing chain issues, dieselgate, dampers, dual clutch problems etc.
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>> So all the reported problems with DSG boxes are fake, the recalls are fake and actually they
>> never go wrong. Ok then, its all a big conspiracy and there are a lot of liars out there.
I am not defending dual clutch gearboxes* but let us not forget DSG is a name used by some VW group brands for dual clutch gearboxes, i.e. Direct Shift Gearbox. Audi on the other hand call them S-Tronic for example.
But many other companies have adopted dual clutch gearboxes with VW being early adopters. Even Legacylad has a dual clutch gearbox in his Macan (PDK).
I think there have been problems, don't get me wrong. And maybe more likely with dry clutch DSG because of driver abuse. I have a VW group 7 speed DSG in the current car. I had one for 3 years without problems in the last car with the same engine.
I do wonder if anyone with any dual clutch gearbox car treating it like a torque converter (where clutch slip is a characteristic) and thus abusing the DSG is the bigger problem. It is a dual clutch gearbox so has two clutches and is automated. I blame the drivers. :-)
DSG is one of the 'product/brand' names VW uses.... perhaps we should refer to Dual Clutch Transmission (DCT). And if it's VW DSG that we have a problem with then as I say it's also S-Tronic in Audis and maybe we need to refer to problems with actual gearboxes:
- DQ200 (the only wet variant)
- DQ250
- DQ380
- DQ381
- DQ500
- DQ511
- DL382
- DL501
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>> dry clutch DSG because of driver abuse. I have a VW group 7 speed DSG
>> in the current car. I had one for 3 years without problems in the last
>> car with the same engine.
And how many miles have you done with them? few I seem to recall. And yes Ford had issues with their implementation as well.
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>> And how many miles have you done with them? few I seem to recall.
Only about 24,000 in the Audi and I've only had the Skoda about 3.5 months. I've read the bad reports too but in the Audi it never put a foot wrong so to speak. A lot of the negative feedback is not only long term reliability.
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>>But many other companies have adopted dual clutch gearboxes with VW being early adopters. Even Legacylad has a dual clutch gearbox in his Macan (PDK).<<
One of the reasons I didn't got for a DCT is that I am not convinced they have yet perfected the tech as they have with torque converters and CVTs.
For the same reason I went for Toyota hybrids as they have more experience with the hybrid tech although I wish Honda had the CRV hybrid out in 2016 as I would have been very interested in one had it been on sale at the time ( I read its out later this year ).
I am sure they will get better and iron out the niggles, but I don't like ironing myself :-)
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My main point which perhaps is not obvious is everyone has a negative thing to say about VW Group DSG's whereas they have many different DCT gearboxes and other manufacturers including BMW and Mercedes use them too.
So is it DCT in general with a problem or VW group DSG branded DCTs? And if the latter what about the same DCT branded as an S-Tronic in an Audi?
I think the use of DSG for problems is generally being aimed at VW and that is not accurate.
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Toyota Avensis - Living the dream - Bobby
