When I first got the electric Zoe, I made a few posts about the experience. It seems only fair then, to make a post about the end of it.
I've just sent back the form to Renault saying "take it back", now that the PCP is ending.
Why? Because it's clear that EV is a product that is absolutely brilliant IF you have a certain driving pattern. When we got the Zoe, we had that pattern and it was great. Now, we don't have that pattern and it's not great. It was also amazingly cheap. Now it's not cheap.
There is nothing on the market right now (that isn't a Tesla) that would fit our current driving pattern. So I'm reluctantly out of the EV market, and will have to wait and see if it's possible to return at some point.
So it's been fun. If your driving pattern suits, or if it doesn't, then if you are prepared to put up with the hassle, perceived or otherwise, I'd still wholeheartedly recommend the experience of EV.
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Sounds like Renault have changed their strategy? Doesn't sound like they want to support their EV sales as much as they used to. You'd think they'd be trying a lot harder to keep you as a customer?
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Thanks CC for the updates. I enjoyed reading about your experience with an EV, gave me food for thought and was one of the more interesting reviews, such as they are here, thanks.
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>> So it's been fun. If your driving pattern suits,
>>
That's the problem with EVs which I can't see a solution to any time soon. Fine as a second car, but even if they suit your driving pattern, there is always the nagging doubt that a one-off event might occur which they cannot service.
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True but if they only replaced second cars that would be a massive proportion of polluting vehicles off the road.
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>> True but if they only replaced second cars that would be a massive proportion of polluting vehicles off the road.
>>
And a massive number of very high embedded carbon vehicles and batteries manufactured that would only be doing low mileage so may never pay for themselves in carbon terms.
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If the priority is to make our cities a much more healthy and pleasant place to live and work then that is a price we must pay. Nothing comes free. Ideally we should be working to provide an infrastructure in our major cities such that most people do not need to travel by private transport thus avoiiding the need for many vehicles to be manufactured but being realistic that is not going to happen any time soon.
I suspect that in the not too distant future most of our cities will be rightly be zero emission zones. and for those who need to drive there electric vehicles will be the only solution.
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What about the areas where the cars and batteries are made CG?
I am not against new cars, rather than we have to recognise their impact, and the impact from manufacturing is higher for an EV and certainly higher over it's lifetime compared with an ICE car if both used as low mileage second cars.
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The impact of what? Co2, nitrous oxides or diesel particulates. It is the latter two that are directly injurious to our health. Replacing old ICE cars with electric vehicles may arguably lead to more CO2 but would reduce the noxious emissions which are directly injurious to our health.
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but the co2 will be absorbed by all of the trees in indonesia and vietnam IF they stop felling trees to serve Mrs. MD's desire for crap furniture. Therefore win win. have a nice day.
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I think the reference to impact is the production of the car itself and particularly the batteries which as you know contain some toxic materials like lithium and nickel.
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>>some toxic materials like lithium and nickel.
Lithium's not too toxic, cobalt is worse.
Anyhoos, have you ever seen the crap spewing out of an oil refinery?
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>> >>some toxic materials like lithium and nickel.
>>
>> Lithium's not too toxic, cobalt is worse.
>>
>> Anyhoos, have you ever seen the crap spewing out of an oil refinery?
>>
Like the "crap" from carbon fueled power stations, that is pretty sure to be steam.
Other emissions are subject to strict standards and are cleaned up (scrubbed) by quite sophisticated means before they get to the stack.
SWMBO was a tour guide at the ce-devant oil-fired Pembroke Power Station and that - "whats the muck coming out of the stack?" - was always one of the questions posed by the tourists.
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Despite not posting much Crankcase I have followed your EV journey all the way through with great interest. As I mentioned in the diesel resale thread at present nearly any elec car is out of the question for our use but as we look forward to full retirement for both of us in a max of 5yrs time I hope there are better alternatives for a rethink of our two vehicles at that point.
Last edited by: Fenlander on Thu 18 Jan 18 at 00:40
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Well I dare say there will be one or two more Zoe posts yet.
After all, though I've told them to take it away, apparently they are notorious for not replying, not arranging the pickup, not notifying Mannheim they need to collect, and then billing you for it being late. Many phone calls needed.
Get over that, and Mannheim in turn are apparently notorious for trying to charge you if the car isn't in better than showroom condition with Zoes (though not, oddly, with Nissan Leafs even though both are using RCI as the finance company). Many more phone calls needed.
We will see.
Drove it about a bit yesterday, thought "sigh, I love this, shame" again.
It's also run out of subscriptions now (seven of them, all called impossible things that don't tell you what exactly they do). Without those, you can no longer get traffic on the Satnav, no longer preheat the car with an app, no longer check the charge state or range remotely, and so on. Renewal of all seven is something over £100. Lasts for three years. Great, if, like mine, you're in a two year PCP and they run out just before it's due back. Won't be doing that, which takes a bit of shine off it too now.
I have to insure it this month too, then cancel in a few weeks, which will attract a £40 penalty. from LV. I could shop about I guess for a lower cancellation penalty and lower premium. I had to tax it as well, but at least that was nothing.
As I'm over on the mileage, it's about 4p a mile electricity but 15p a mile excess (battery and chassis charged separately). At 19p a mile I could be running a Jaaag.
When it's done I'll tot up the true total cost of ownership over the two years, and post if anyone is interested.
Last edited by: Crankcase on Thu 18 Jan 18 at 08:30
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We had a little bit of that with Manheim when the Cactus went back, lease co said Manheim would be in touch but we had to chase it up.
I've had two go back with them now and yes they are very picky but the trick is never to agree to a price to repair this or that blemish with the guy who inspects... sign that you do not agree with any repairs he says are needed and take your own photos. In our case of the Cactus that went back last year the lease co were happy with the overall condition and said no further charges applicable.
With our C5 going back in 2012 the inspector said it needed £180 in smart repairs and that was a better price than I'd get if I let the lease co decide. I refused and after a couple of weeks a letter arrived confirming collection with charges waived. The inspectors must be on a bonus to get you to sign for repair charges.
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That's really useful info, Fenlander. Thank you.
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>> The impact of what?
I think before we selfishly consider only the benefits in our own cities, we need to look more closely at possible future costs in the countries where the raw materials for batteries are mined and processed.
A quick search found this:
www.greentechmedia.com/articles/read/lithium-ion-battery-production-is-surging-but-at-what-cost#gs.bA39aiQ
I've no idea whether the article and the investigation has any basis or not, but we surely need to know before blithely assuming that what is good for us is good for everybody.
For example I don't suppose the excavators extracting Lithium ore or the lorries carrying it to the procesors are EVs.
Also we have already seen the destabilising political impact of a dependency on oil. What new troubles might we be storing up somewhere else in the Lithium-producing regions? Once they realise they too can blackmail us, what then?
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I quite enjoy the "Inside the Factory" series on the BBC. But I'm always left thinking how much it costs, in environmental terms, to make the stuff. They did Ribena last week. Blackcurrants grown in Kent, then lorries to Gloucestershire, processing, splitting out the "aroma" to a liquid, processed fruit and liquid to the Forest of Dean for recombination, final product off all over the place.
Now add in the bottles being transported from the Netherlands. And the labels, produced elsewhere they didn't tell us, so that's another factory somewhere, perhaps not even in the UK, where paper, glue, inks (all perhaps made in another set of factories) are all transported in from somewhere, then the final product driven out to the Ribena factory for their bottles.
Then there's the machines that actually make all that stuff, and all their components.
And at the end of it all, we drink a few mouthfuls and chuck the bottle in the bin, where it might, with many miles driven, get recycled, and round we go again.
Then multiply that by all those annoying little things like tiny milk cartons with indifferent milk in you get in cafes, and wrappers for that one biscuit you get with your coffee and so on seemingly endlessly.
i know this is what civilisation IS, and what's keeps us paid and eating, but it's all terribly self indulgent. In 500 years they'll be saying "what were they THINKING?".
Last edited by: Crankcase on Thu 18 Jan 18 at 10:09
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What is the alternative?
Restrict our consumption to products grown and manufactured within twenty miles of our homes?
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Maybe. Worked for the previous million years.
Or we can carry on burning through finite resources making individually wrapped toothpicks until the world runs out of stuff, and then think again, I guess.
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It worked in a pre-industrial age when populations were low, most worked hard lives in agriculture and lived in villages. The standard of living was low, all work was manual, famines were common occurrences and most died in childhood and few lived beyond fifty.
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...and that's where may well be again. The human race survived that way of life since it existed, and pre-human, a few million years before that too.
Now we have had a very few thousand years of improving times, rapidly accelerating in the last few hundred.
Be nice to do a few more hundred before reverting to that, I agree. Not sure that tiny paper sugar packets or whatever helps with that aim, is all.
Last edited by: Crankcase on Thu 18 Jan 18 at 13:32
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“...and that's where may well be again. The human race survived that way of life since it existed, and pre-human, a few million years before that too.â€
Well It didn’t actually. Agriculture is quite a new technology. Only been around in these island for around seven thousand years. Before that it was hunting and gathering with a population of a few tens of thousands. Not a realistic model for 60 million people on a small island. Besides it’s ages since I’ve seen a mamouth.
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>> What is the alternative?
>>
>> Restrict our consumption to products grown and manufactured within twenty miles of our homes?
>>
We have gone through globalisation and we are going full circle, localisation is happening, Chinese workers want the same standard of living as UK, EU and US etc workers so will not make cheaper stuff for us for ever, ten years ago or more Dell started making computer monitors in Europe and other stuff is now once more made in the UK and EU rather than the far east, BMW's etc are now made in China to service that market and also in the US and elsewhere and Nissans and Toyotas are made here etc.
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>> will not make cheaper stuff for us for ever, ten years ago or more Dell
>> started making computer monitors in Europe
Dell does not make monitors. They are rebranded Ben Q. Dont know of a benQ factory in Europe. I see precious little of the "full circle" in reality.
Last edited by: Zero on Thu 18 Jan 18 at 17:23
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>> Dell does not make monitors. They are rebranded Ben Q. Dont know of a benQ
>> factory in Europe. I see precious little of the "full circle" in reality.
>>
OK, OK, they are made for Dell, as are iPhones for Apple, though they are still Dell monitors.
They are certainly not all BenQ and they have been made in the Czech Republic for many years, I think that the factory is connected with Eizo though I might be wrong in that.
So what about the BMW etc examples, localisation is happening, shortening supply chains, adding value nearest to the customer, a lot of it makes sense.
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I think you are confused. Globalisation and localisation are not either the same thing or opposites.
When someone moves manufacturing from one coutnry to another, that is not globalisation, if anything it is simply relocation, perhaps centralisation. Accepted that's what the Daily Mail calls it, but they are pitching to a particular audience.
True globalisation is where you have the ability to manufacture it anywhere in the world and are able to choose without influence beyond the needs of your business.
In fact, its closer to localisation though the drivers are quite different.
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>> I think you are confused. >>
Not at all. Though I agree that globalisation is perhaps not the ideal term.
The point is that the idea of having very low cost manufacturing at one end of the world providing cheap goods for consumption elsewhere is ending. And if anything the reverse is happening as manufacturing is becoming more localised once more.
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>> So what about the BMW etc examples, localisation is happening, shortening supply chains, adding value
>> nearest to the customer, a lot of it makes sense.
The BMWs built in china for the local market are different variations. The new 5 built there for example is stretched, and its also has different software and systems to conform with chinese source code regulations and technology declarations.
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>> What is the alternative?
>>
>> Restrict our consumption to products grown and manufactured within twenty miles of our homes?
>>
No, not necessarily.
In this particular example (electric cars) we ought firstly to get the full picture of the environmental impact not just in our towns, but across the world in all the stages of production.
Then we can be in a proper position to weigh up the best least harmful options.
I'm not convinced that we have done that so far. We have just looked at an electric car, observed that it apparently causes no pollution, and decided that is what we want. Someone else, possibly at the other side of the world, possibly in the next generation, might be bearing the real costs.
I don't know whether that is true, neither I would guess do you. But what is suspicious is that no one seems willing to present the full balanced picture.
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We are quite some years into the production and use of electric vehicles. I'd be surprised if what you seek doesn't already exist.
Last edited by: smokie on Thu 18 Jan 18 at 16:20
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>> We are quite some years into the production and use of electric vehicles. I'd be
>> surprised if what you seek doesn't already exist.
>>
We are quite some years into the production and use of diesel cars.
I'm not in the least surprised that they have only now been discovered to be not quite so green as thought, and that manufacturers have had to resort to fraud in order to get them to pass the tests.
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>> We are quite some years into the production and use of electric vehicles.
Over a hundred years as it happens. Its has to be the slowest technological improvement path in history.
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>>Its has to be the slowest technological improvement path in history.
No.
qph.ec.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-f2e0a02e01f39e032741cfb7bb9e349d
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>> No.
>> qph.ec.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-f2e0a02e01f39e032741cfb7bb9e349d
Looks slow to me.
Last edited by: VxFan on Fri 19 Jan 18 at 01:56
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>> Looks slow to me.
And me.
Last edited by: VxFan on Fri 19 Jan 18 at 01:56
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>> I'm not convinced that we have done that so far. We have just looked at
>> an electric car, observed that it apparently causes no pollution, and decided that is what
>> we want. Someone else, possibly at the other side of the world, possibly in the
>> next generation, might be bearing the real costs.
>> I don't know whether that is true, neither I would guess do you. But what
>> is suspicious is that no one seems willing to present the full balanced picture.
>>
We don't usually see a "balanced" picture for anything. Anything which required oil, whether it is petrol / diesel for transport or plastics etc has to cost in the extraction with all its short term and long term costs, huge transport costs, nearly as huge refining costs and large distribution costs of the final product.
The balanced view is usually the one that matches my view, or your view or whatever.
I would probably bet that the all-in cost of electric vehicles is less than the all-in cost of petrol or diesel vehicles but we will never get a true complete picture of either.
However, something has to change and it shouldn't take us all back to the 1800s
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>> , then lorries to Gloucestershire, processing, splitting out the "aroma"
>> to a liquid, >>
Actually Sandford in Somerset (no, not the fake Sandford in Hot Fuzz that was actually Wells), i's the Thatchers Cider HQ, their stuff is redundant during the summer so squeezing blackcurrants is better than nothing.
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I could not be bothered faffing about with an E.V.
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Went out with my mate in his diesel today. He had to do a splash and dash in an expensive petrol station. What a performance!! We had to wait behind others queueing for a pump, then once he was there he had to stand there out on the cold, blue plastic glove on while squeezing the trigger to fill his car. Then off to the queue in the kiosk to pay. And he'll have to do it all over again once he reaches his preferred fuel station.
When I get home in my EREV, I just park within a few metres of my garage door, lift the door, grab the lead and plug in. Takes just seconds, no queueing and no special equipment required. Unfortunately to use the ER mode of my vehicle, I occasionally have to visit a fuel station. The last time was October.
What faffing were you thinking of?
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I have to go to the petrol station every week.
Milk is only £1.35 for 4 pints though.
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>> Milk is only £1.35 for 4 pints though.
£1.09 in Tesco I think.
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>> >> Milk is only £1.35 for 4 pints though.
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>> £1.09 in Tesco I think.
>>
£1, and has been 99p, in our Sainsbury's.
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>> £1, and has been 99p, in our Sainsbury's.
Is it still £1 at your Tesco supermarket? I'd assumed it was still £1 until about 6 weeks ago and then realised it was now £1.09. In the Tesco Extra I think it's £1.10.
tinyurl.com/y72nrbej
Last edited by: rtj70 on Fri 19 Jan 18 at 01:13
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Yeah, well I'm not going to the supermarket more than once a week - the BP is on the way home from work.
Mingle with the plebs?
I have an EV, you know.
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>> Yeah, well I'm not going to the supermarket more than once a week - the
>> BP is on the way home from work.
>>
>> Mingle with the plebs?
>>
>> I have an EV, you know.
>>
Yes of course, you'd have to unplug it ;-)
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>> Whatw faffing were you thinking of?
>>
That's hybrid, not EV Smokie ...
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In my case, PHEV if we're splitting hairs, or for even more precision EREV, as the manufacturer describes it (extended range electric vehicle)
Whatever, there isn't anywhere near as much faffing with an EV, if you are easily able to charge it at home, and if it broadly suits your driving requirement.
I do tend to charge mine each time I use it to keep the range (up to about 45 miles in summer, less in the cold) topped up, and to leave it plugged in once charging is complete, to enable (remotely controlled) pre-conditioning, if I remember top do it!!
It costs me about £1.40 in electricity (when the panels aren't generating) to go from empty to full electric range. My petrol mpg over the 2000+ miles I've owned the car is now at about 177 mpg, and rising (the gauge stops at "250+ mpg").
I understand and agree with some anti EV arguments but not that it's a faff, comparatively.
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>> I understand and agree with some anti EV arguments but not that it's a faff,
>> comparatively.
Agreed in the case you're not going far. Once you go out of range, faff compared with refuelling an ICE includes
finding somewhere to charge (not always, or even often, somewhere convenient)
making sure you are subscribed to the right scheme for that point, making sure you have downloaded and registered with the appropriate app first, or possibly sent off for the appropriate card.
when you get there you run the gauntlet of "is it working", and if not, what's your plan B. And
if it is working, you do the "is someone else using it", and if so, factor in their charging time as well as your own, which isn't five minutes.
and of course, the great "some silly B has parked their ICE car in the space and gone shopping, so now nobody can charge here at all".
Once the novelty wears off, one tends to think one will go back to diesel until these problems are addressed. In three years, at least locally and out into East Anglia, they have not been in any way. It's worse than when I started, and it's not even free anymore.
Bah.
Last edited by: Crankcase on Fri 19 Jan 18 at 09:42
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>>he had to stand there out on the cold, blue plastic glove on
In my 25 or so years driving diesels, I have never once felt the need to put a plastic glove on!
The fuel comes out the end of the nozzle the same as a petrol?
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>> In my 25 or so years driving diesels, I have never once felt the need
>> to put a plastic glove on!
>> The fuel comes out the end of the nozzle the same as a petrol?
Yes except you have the greasy slimy diesel covered handle in your hand. Diesel does not evaporate.
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Nope, never experienced a slimy diesel covered handle.
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Try using the HGV pumps, you'll find plenty there!
Pat
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>> Nope, never experienced a slimy diesel covered handle.
I don't think I have, but the floor is frequently slippery which gets transferred into the car all too easily.
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>> I don't think I have, but the floor is frequently slippery which gets transferred into the car all too easily.
I stopped taking motorcycles into filling stations because of diesel spills at the pump. I used to keep a gallon can in the car and fill that up when I called in for petrol, transferring it to the bike when I got home. Of course on long runs you still have to call in for a refuel, as 200 miles is about the maximum you'll get out of even the most efficient fuel miser owing to the small tank capacity.
Last edited by: VxFan on Sat 20 Jan 18 at 17:47
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"The fuel comes out the end of the nozzle the same as a petrol?"
Unlike petrol, there's only about 10cc. And I'd always advise you to wear your "glove".
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I have never worn a glove refuelling diesel in 25 years either and have never had a problem with fuel on the nozzle handle either.
Talking of 10cc, you do do know how they got their name? (Clue: it's a bit rude)
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>> I have never worn a glove refuelling diesel in 25 years either and have never
>> had a problem with fuel on the nozzle handle either.
Me neither. But I have occasionally been glad of the wet wipes Mrs B places in both cars.
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>> Me neither. But I have occasionally been glad of the wet wipes Mrs B places
>> in both cars.
Ok, I'm tired and my eyes are not the best and it's tiny print on this iPad. But I did read your last word as starting, not with a c, but with an e.
A strange image.
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Goodbye Zoe - Auntie Lockbrakes
