Telegraph article - it's behind a pay wall but you can register for a free article:
www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/12/29/drivers-prosecuted-using-mobile-phones-sat-navs-conflicting/
Claims the rules are "using a mobile phone" so you it appears that you don't necessarily have to be touching it!?
The Govts own website refers to "use" as well.
think.direct.gov.uk/mobile-phones.html
Would using it as a sat nav whilst driving may therefore be against the rules (even if cradled)?
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Poor verbal reasoning skills from crap journalists.
I can't be bothered to read it again but I'm fairly sure the gov site refers to handheld phones, and "holding and using" a mobile, NOT "holding or using...".
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www.gov.uk/government/news/double-penalties-for-motorists-using-mobiles
The actual text merely refers to "using" - undefined.
The words "holding and using" are a quotation from Chris Grayling.
Generally in motoring law "using" has nothing to do with touching. You are "using" a car if it is merely parked and you are the driver who put it there or the registered keeper.
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The legislation is here:
www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2003/2695/pdfs/uksi_20032695_en.pdf
The relevant word is using but is qualified by specific reference to a hand held mobile phone or other device (excepting two-way radio) performing an interactive communication function. Hand held is defined thus:
a mobile telephone or other device is to be treated as hand-held if it is, or must
be, held at some point during the course of making or receiving a call or
performing any other interactive communication function
And before anybody thinks a phone is a sophisticated two way radio and a get out of jail card the legislation excludes devices operating in the mobile spectrum from that definition.
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>>
>> And before anybody thinks a phone is a sophisticated two way radio and a get
>> out of jail card the legislation excludes devices operating in the mobile spectrum from that
>> definition.
>>
I wonder what happens if my phones in airplane mode, but WiFi and Bluetooth switched on, using the WiFi from the car’s hotspot (which has its own SIM card) for a call ;)
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thelincolnite.co.uk/2017/12/woman-who-caused-lincoln-bikers-death-while-chatting-on-hands-free-phone-jailed/
I think the Judge's remarks in this recent case have been the cause for the confusion about what the law states.
In fact, the verdict does blur the edges somewhat.
Pat
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I'm not so sure it does. As I understand it she was on the wrong side of the road and killed someone. This was due to distraction from using the phone, she wasn't found guilty of using the phone per se.
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I read that as saying it would have been 'causing death by careless driving' had her story about clipping the kerb been accepted, but that using the phone, albeit hands-free, was dangerous driving so the offence was 'causing death by dangerous driving'.
Presumably the jury was directed in some way by the judge to consider whether the phone use was a factor and/or whether it was, de facto, dangerous driving.
I suppose the same principle could be applied to anything distracting, such as lighting a fag or eating a cheeseburger, but phone use seems to be becoming taboo, a bit like drink driving, which is presumably what the authorities are after.
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>>
>> I suppose the same principle could be applied to anything distracting, such as lighting a
>> fag or eating a cheeseburger, but phone use seems to be becoming taboo, a bit
>> like drink driving, which is presumably what the authorities are after.
>>
As technological advance increasingly blurs the distinctions between different devices, the question "What is a mobile phone?" or what does "using" mean? will become harder to answer.
I think the demonisation of one item, the mobile phone, is moving in the wrong direction.
What are we really trying to achieve? Surely the target is driver distraction - we are slowly and very belatedly realising that driving is a serious and potentially dangerous activity, demanding full concentration. Rather than focusing on the phone, it might be better to look at the spectrum of sources of driver distraction.
Perhaps an analogy would be to a skilled machine operator, craftsman, or surgeon? Would it be appropriate for any of those to perform in an environment of bystander chatter, loud music, or the operation of any devices not immediately relevant to the actual job?
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As technological advance increasingly blurs the distinctions between different devices, the question "What is a
>> mobile phone?" or what does "using" mean? will become harder to answer.
I don't think it's much of an issue, brompts link above seemed to have a pretty good catch all definition.
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>> I don't think it's much of an issue, brompts link above seemed to have a
>> pretty good catch all definition.
>>
Possibly so. But that's as things stand at present. Isn't the general trend though in these things for devices to expand what they do so as almost to become identical in function to other things?
You sometimes need to touch the screen of an ordinary Satnav, to change directions, select options, look for parking places, etc. That's not so very different from touching a mobile phone surely? And if the phone is being used as a satnav? Typing in a satnav destination address is not so very different from texting? Even with our old-tech satnav on a sucker on the windscreen, it's a lot easier to pick it up to type rather than try to do it at a stretch in situ.
Yet holding a satnav would appear to be legal, but a phone not so.
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> You sometimes need to touch the screen of an ordinary Satnav, to change directions, select
>> options, look for parking places, etc. That's not so very different from touching a mobile
>> phone surely? And if the phone is being used as a satnav? Typing in a
>> satnav destination address is not so very different from texting?
I would think it's been brought in for mobiles to stop people using the excuse that they were using it as a sat nav. Difficult to prove either way, sat navs are much more limited in function.
Yes you can be distracted by using a sat navs and there's laws for that already.
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No, I understand that sooty, but as I try and get through to my lads when I'm training, if you are on the phone, even legally on hands free and have an accident, it will be deemed to be partially the cause of it.
That will inevitably have a bearing on the sentence and in my opinion, it's a risk not worth taking.
I don't think it will be long before it is made totally illegal for a driver to use a mobile phone in any way.
Pat
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Like many of the people who visit this site, I am a very experienced driver. I also spend a great deal of my working life in the car. In recent years though, I avoid answering the phone or indeed listening to the radio when in heavy traffic. I've never actually had an accident in my life, but can say that in the past I've been distracted enough by phone use to have come close to doing so. Just won't do it now unless I'm on a quiet stretch of road and on hands free.
Otherwise, I stop, usually in a motorway service area, grab a coffee, bin a few emails and deal with any phone messages that have come in or calls I want to make.
The downside is that it extends my working days and journey times but I'm increasingly of the view that it may also extend my life expectancy too.
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I once tried talking books in the car. That was a very bad idea that almost went very wrong indeed.
As for the phone, I think actual safety depends on the type of call - how long, how involving etc. etc. But for sure if you do have an accident even when handsfree I'd expect it to be taken in to account.
I do what you do, stop for a coffee and a sandwich and sort it all out then.
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>> I once tried talking books in the car. That was a very bad idea that
>> almost went very wrong indeed.
Radio 4's afternoon drama has often whiled away a good chunk of a long journey, and I will arrive at my destination with no memory of that section of the journey whatsoever. 40-50 miles of road completely gone. I can't recall it ever causing any "moments", but neither can I hand on heart say it doesn't affect concentration.
With modern cars throwing ever more "entertainment" at drivers, including streaming music on demand in the current BMW, such potential for distraction must be increasing.
I rarely answer phone calls in the car unless it's someone I really need to talk to. Most can wait until I next stop, or get where I'm going.
The instructor on my speed awareness course last year confirmed that, in the event of any serious road accident, mobile phone records (including call, SMS and internet traffic) are examined as a matter of course for all involved parties, and that the mobile carriers are all incredibly cooperative when asked for this data.
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>>Internet use examined
My phone connects to the car to download traffic data via the internet. It also does other connected data things like backups, location sending etc and feeds from the office including email.
The phones stay in the centre console though. Would be upset if usage beyond my control was us d against me!
Last edited by: zippy on Sun 31 Dec 17 at 18:54
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I get that pat, trying to keep them on the straight and narrow so to speak.
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So from reading through the detail of the links are we now saying that the issue that was brought up in the other thread (using a mobile to make cashless payments at drive-throughs and toll booths) doesn't hold water and was a scare story??
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I suppose it depends if had an accident or not and how much of an impact using the phone had.
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Mind you, aside from what the law says, using a hand held mobile phone while you are driving is dumb.
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I can see this becoming a very grey area. For example, you are allowed to use your car's infotainment system to change radio channels, play CDs, etc.
What if your car's infotainment is now connected to your phone using Android Auto or Apple CarPlay? Are you allowed to control the phone at all? You can use your voice but you could also browse Spotify and scroll through and select what to play.... but I could also get distracted using media on the car's system natively.
Indeed, before setting out, is it not safer to queue up something to play via Spotify or your favourite phone music app than to mess with the radio/CD/etc?
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Mobile Phones Again - Manatee
