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They should be compulsory in all vehicles
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Would I have one? In a moment.
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You may have one without realising it. Being a suspicious old git I wonder what info a cars assorted ECUs retain for forensic examination after a catastrophic event.
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Never heard of any such information given in evidence therefore one must assume “noneâ€.
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But even if so, what could it possibly tell them that I would care about them knowing?
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How fast you were going, if you braked, if the ABS activated, what the yaw sensor detected, if the anti skid system activated, if the Bluetooth phone system was in use, if your lights were on, if your indicators were active, if your wipers were in use, and most likely a lot more. All difficult to dispute should you be inclined.
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Nothing unless you habitually drive in an illegal or dangerous manner
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I was not expecting it to be a problem for us perfect drivers, but it might catch out the boy racing oik who kills someone and pleads that he was driving like a saint. :-)
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>> might catch out the boy racing oik who kills someone and pleads that he was
>> driving like a saint. :-)
Well every boy racing oik case that has come to court to date has not involved any of that information from the cars systems.
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>> Well every boy racing oik case that has come to court to date has not
>> involved any of that information from the cars systems.
>>
As you are reputed to be an IT geek can you tell us that cars do not retain any information that could be recovered?
Last edited by: Old Navy on Sat 16 Dec 17 at 18:59
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>> >> Well every boy racing oik case that has come to court to date has
>> not
>> >> involved any of that information from the cars systems.
>> >>
>>
>> As you are reputed to be an IT geek can you tell us that cars
>> do not retain any information that could be recovered?
If you could ask the question in a half polite manner I might be a***d to tell you.
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>> I might be a***d to tell you.
>>
As I suspected, information can be recovered if necessary. As we are supposedly talking about black boxes I would not put it past insurance companies to recover data from car systems if it was going to save them a big payout.
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Insurance company black boxes can only interact with the car systems as much as mandated standards through a standard interface allow. The information provided is pretty limited. *Some* more interesting information can be obtained though propriety interfaces, but as every insurance black box is standard, then its not captured or interrogated.
I say again, had you been so inclined to read it, that there have not been any uk court cases where stored electronic car dynamic information has been used in evidence.
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I do not dispute that the information from car systems has not been used in court yet. The fact that it can be recovered is worth being aware of though. A damaged car becomes the property of the insurance company and they can examine it in any way they want.
Last edited by: Old Navy on Sat 16 Dec 17 at 19:40
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>> I say again, had you been so inclined to read it, that there have not
>> been any uk court cases where stored electronic car dynamic information has been used in
>> evidence.
>>
I've seen a number of (possibly apocryphal) references to this having taken place in the last few years.
A (very) quick search pulls up this:
tinyurl.com/telematics-data-proves-guilt-
(also documented quite widely elsewhere across the web).
Last edited by: tyrednemotional on Sat 16 Dec 17 at 19:51
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Your link does not work, but I assume you are referring to the various success claimed by some outfit called APU? Seems to be an installed black box that records speed and location and in itself not much else.
Edit, yes as I said, its not actually car information stored within, merely some form of external gps device. Appears to be hyped and inflated advertising to me and not prosecution corner stone evidence.
Last edited by: Zero on Sat 16 Dec 17 at 20:06
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That particular example does reference APU (with an "add on" black box)
If you search for EDR, or Event Data Recorder (a device already installed by the manufacturer in some UK cars) there are examp!es of the telematics obtained from these being used as prosecution evidence.
Last edited by: tyrednemotional on Sat 16 Dec 17 at 20:32
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>> That particular example does reference APU (with an "add on" black box)
>>
>> If you search for EDR, or Event Data Recorder (a device already installed by the
>> manufacturer in some UK cars)
Mostly data contained within the air bag deployment module. None of it is standard, or mandated (YET) by the EU who are merely muttering about its use, regulation and availability to those with a need to know,
But hey at least you got an approving green thumb from you know who matelot.
Last edited by: Zero on Sat 16 Dec 17 at 20:50
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The telematics in a lorry record by monitoring the speed, direction, accelerator position, braking, ABS status, gears, cruise control and clutch, in other words a complete overview of what happened immediately before, and after an incident, virtual data is available.
Incident analysis uses a black box recording function which links with the telematics solution.
It records event information and is triggered by incidents such as harsh braking and rapid deceleration; or when the camera on-board is triggered.
Pat
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>> Edit, yes as I said, its not actually car information stored within, merely some form
>> of external gps device. Appears to be hyped and inflated advertising to me and not
>> prosecution corner stone evidence.
>>
EDR data was used in court in the UK in 2006 and 2010 to secure convictions. See link.
www.hawkins.biz/insights/insight/event-data-recorders-in-passenger-vehicles
Last edited by: Old Navy on Sat 16 Dec 17 at 20:55
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>>I would not put it past insurance companies to recover data from car
>> systems if it was going to save them a big payout.
>>
I had an investigations company as a client.
A major insurer was paying for them to monitor a 14 year old who had been run over on a dual carriageway whilst playing chicken. The lad was severely injured and spent six months in hospital.
Every waking hour was recorded where ever they could gain access, including the playground at school, from cameras hidden in cars.
The lad had NOT filed any claim and there was no indication that any would be filed. The fees that the insurance company were paying were also racking up.
As a company we reported the matter to the relevant authorities as it just didn't "sit right" with us and ended our relationship with the investigations company.
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>> Well every boy racing oik case that has come to court to date has not
>> involved any of that information from the cars systems.
How would you know?
If there'd been a dispute as to accuracy or admissibility of such evidence then cases might make law reports and mainstream media.
OTOH if bench at Bugsville magistrates court convict without appeal it'd be lucky to make the Bugsville Bugle. Same if District or Circuit Judge at Bugsville County Court award damages.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Sat 16 Dec 17 at 20:06
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>> >> Well every boy racing oik case that has come to court to date has
>> not
>> >> involved any of that information from the cars systems.
>>
>> How would you know?
>>
>> If there'd been a dispute as to accuracy or admissibility of such evidence then cases
>> might make law reports and mainstream media.
Because boy racing oik cases make news, and the shock horror revelation we are all being monitored by our cars would have featured heavily.
Last edited by: Zero on Sat 16 Dec 17 at 20:09
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>> Because boy racing oik cases make news, and the shock horror revelation we are all
>> being monitored by our cars would have featured heavily.
Only if mainstream media pick it up. As Iffy, were he still here, could confirm there's no longer a local paper reporter glued to the press bench in every court. And if the blackbox's evidence was not contested then even less likely to catch wind of publicity.
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>> >> Because boy racing oik cases make news, and the shock horror revelation we are
>> all
>> >> being monitored by our cars would have featured heavily.
>>
>> Only if mainstream media pick it up. As Iffy, were he still here, could confirm
>> there's no longer a local paper reporter glued to the press bench in every court.
>> And if the blackbox's evidence was not contested then even less likely to catch wind
>> of publicity.
There is such a thing as motoring press. It would be news, major news.
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>> There is such a thing as motoring press. It would be news, major news.
How would the motoring press know unless they picked it up from either local paper or agency feed? But the agency feed is probably dependant on local papers too.
We've actually established (above) that telematics evidence has been used so point is actually moot.
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>> We've actually established (above) that telematics evidence has been used so point is actually
No we haven't we *might* have reference to two cases (one of them is very doubtful because its so old its before much of the claimed information was technically available) again spouted by a self proclaimed forensic company. One that appears to have never been used again in the (many) intervening years. And it certainly wasn't telematics - look up the term.
My point is and was, following the point of the thread in the first place, it is not yet a tool commonly available or used by the police because its implementation and availability (in Europe) is patchy and its accessibility variable.
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...it's all going a bit HMS Pinafore....
What, never?
No, never!
What, never?
...Hardly ever!
;-)
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>> ...Hardly ever!
Someone threw Zero a bone, no way he will let it go. :-)
Last edited by: VxFan on Mon 18 Dec 17 at 10:37
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>> Someone threw Zero a bone, no way he will let it go. :-)
Careful ON, you are dribbling and wetting your pants again. You don't want to spend the day smelling of pee again do you?
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>> Careful ON, you are dribbling and wetting your pants again. You don't want to spend
>> the day smelling of pee again do you?
Will you two get yourselves a room!!!
Seriously though it's beyond a running gag now, time to let go. In another forum I use (and moderate) you can put people on ignore. Suggest you two put each other on virtual ignore.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Mon 18 Dec 17 at 10:01
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>> How would you know?
>>
Zero knows everything about everything.
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You really are a pathetic r sole. I pity you.
Last edited by: Zero on Sat 16 Dec 17 at 20:19
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Give it a rest ON . Your snide comments are beginning to pall.
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No way.
It's no-one's business where I have been.
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>> You may have one without realising it. Being a suspicious old git I wonder what
>> info a cars assorted ECUs retain for forensic examination after a catastrophic event.
>>
There is a difference between retaining data and transmitting it to a third party in real time.
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Recent bumper sticker seen on a car.
"My driving may well annoy you....
But not as much as my telematics box annoys me"
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Big Brother, not for me, the answer is to train, inform and empower.
How far do you take it, how many parameters do you record? I.e. do you have cameras linked to the black box that see the child running on the pavement so that quite legal speed can be seen to be inappropriate in the circumstances.
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>> There is a difference between retaining data and transmitting it to a third party in
>> real time.
>>
And it depends what you mean by "data". Simple forensic evidence is or can be a form of data.
If a braking car leaves 20 yard skid marks on the road, then in principle that is exactly like a black box recording its speed and braking effort, and even producing a print-out.
It's the interpretation of the data that matters - if you measure body or engine temperature at an incident then someone with experience of cooling rates can estimate the time of death or crash.
I've read that crash investigators can distinguish between a lightbulb that has failed as a result of a crash, and one that had failed previously. Presumably the filament remains and scorch marks on the glass tell a tale to someone who can interpret the "data".
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>> I've read that crash investigators can distinguish between a lightbulb that has failed as a
>> result of a crash, and one that had failed previously. Presumably the filament remains and
>> scorch marks on the glass tell a tale to someone who can interpret the "data".
I remember reading of an aircrash back in the fifties that determined from filament remains that some warning or annunciator light was on (or possibly off).
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>> It's no-one's business where I have been.
There are several thousands of ANPR cameras over the country.
Mobile phone movements are traceable (even when GPS is off).
If phone sat nav is used, the whole route is traceable.
Manufacturers store data inside their vehicles which they can access (usually used for fault analysis not necessarily as legal evidence to prosecute someone).
London is one of the most prolific CCTV towns in the world. With face recognition software available, authorities can track every movement of a person if they want to. Modern technology can even predict crime before those are committed (but they can't stop criminals for legal reasons).
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Given VAG's and probably other manufactures messing with their cars' software, I reckon you would want an independent expert to examine the data obtained from a black box in finite detail and the processes for recording it - who knows, if the code is calculating and recording data from a sensor correctly and not applying averaging or smoothing before its saved?
The polices' inability to make even the simples evidence available for a rape trial suggests that even evidence to suggest you were driving correctly would be withheld: www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5187749/Student-wrongly-accused-rape-plans-sue-CPS.html
APNR can be wrong to. It misreads car number plates and number plates can be cloned.
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All evidence can be falsified, altered, or misunderstood. People can lie , memories are fallible, photos can be tampered with witnesses can be bought. I guess we should abandon any attempt at enforcing our legal system.
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What CG said.
Thank goodness we have juries and the concept of reasonable doubt.
I know we can all point to failures, but overall its a damned good justice system we have in the UK. Damned good. And I've lived many places where it is not.
In one right now, as it happens.
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Don't think it woulkd bother me too much. Telematics are part of my everyday working life, as they are for all vocational drivers.
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Wife has had a black box on her car for 3 years now since my son got put on the insurance. Its with Direct line.
It comes with a phone app that shows all your journeys and gives a score for each one with areas highlighted on the map like heavy braking, too fast etc. Also has a basic tracker in that you can locate where your car is on the app (which country lane your teenage laddie is parked up in)
The scoring is a bit random, you get penalised for driving in rush hour traffic but also penalised for driving late at night. It doesnt differentiate between drivers so the laddie at 11pm with a car full of his buddies is no different to my wife driving home after her backshift.
Got our renewal quote in this year and then shopped around but couldnt match it. A week before renewal got an email saying that due to her good scoring she would receive a 20% discount on her premiums. But the actual premium was the same as the renewal quoted so assume it was already taken off.
Overall, I have no objections to it , big brother can watch me all he wants (he'll soon get bored)
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It's a bit of a misnomer when applied to cars. In aircraft it's to record vital data that can be useful in investigating an accident and the events leading up to it. It's not interested in the pilot's flying standards over the past year.
In a car, it's to give a long-term picture of the standard of driving. It's not interested in why a light bulb failed.
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The telematics boxes in our work vehicles is supplied and monitored by a company called Hubio Fleet.
Last edited by: VxFan on Mon 18 Dec 17 at 12:47
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If telematics were to become compulsory, it would make the move to an autonomous car a no-brainer for me. If I'm under 24/7 surveillance and my mistakes/contraventions are automatically uploaded to Big Brother whenever I make them, driving would just become a complete chore. If that's where I were to ever find myself, I'd just have a black box do all the work instead of just reporting on me.
Luckily at present, the only quotes I've ever had that insist on a black box are also wanting premiums in the thousands. Long may that continue.
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It sounds just too nosy and judgemental to me.
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It's what lorry drivers have to put up with all day every day, and then when you get back to base on friday you have an inquest as to why you braked harshly at 2.37pm on Tuesday.
If you can't remember, you will be shown the exact spot on Google maps street view.......and you better have a good answer.
You wonder why we get stressed??
Pat
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If you/they find it too stressful.
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I didn't say I found it stressful, I said car drivers wonder why we appear stressed.
I really try to give you all a small insight into the other side of lorry driving.
I'm fully aware of a car drivers view of lorries always in their way and impeding their progress so I try very hard to be unbiased when iI do this, and just hope that sometimes you may realise what's actually going on in that cab, in the mind of the lorry driver and just occasionally cut us some slack.
We're not perfect by any means but then again, neither are any other road users.
You will always remember the bad ones but never the good ones, it's the way of the world. I do it with car drivers too.
It just gets tiresome when everyone just seems to want to fault us, whatever we do and however hard I try to explain rationally just how life is for us and the things we have to deal with from our angle, as opposed to yours.
I would like to bet everyone has small parts of their job they hate, but they don't give up and go in search of the perfect job, because we all know it doesn't exist.
I consider myself incredibly lucky to have been able to spend 30 years of my working life on the road, alone and as the captain of my own ship. Trusted to make immediate decisions without the back up of managemet anywhere near me. I've seem most of this country and from the height of a cab where the view is far superior than from the level of a car. I've met some brilliant characters from all over the place, made some wonderful friends and if that means I have to explain my braking, then I can live with that.
Now, please can we all get a bit of Christmas spirit on here.....please.
Pat
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>> I didn't say I found it stressful, I said car drivers wonder why we appear
>> stressed.
You wrote:-
"You wonder why we get stressed??"
I wrote something to the effect "get a different job then".
That's all, no more, no less. I not going into one of your marathons. Lighten up.
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No Duncan, you need to lighten up.
But actually, giving you the benefit of the doubt, I really don't think it is that.
I think quite often, you don't realise how abrupt and rude you come over in print.
I don't think you mean it that way but that is how it appears.
I'm not the only one to notice it and take it the wrong way so maybe looking at your posts from another angle before posting them would be a good idea?
I refuse to take the blame for it and let you off that easy.
Pat
Last edited by: Pat on Wed 20 Dec 17 at 18:22
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>> why you braked harshly at 2.37pm on Tuesday.
Are you allowed to fit your own dashcam/GPS device? For example, to challenge and demonstrate that you didn't really brake harshly and claiming their fitted device recorded in wrongly.
You can also focus into some other angles which built-in cameras don't record at all.
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The telematics incorporates a dashcam and there is no denying it.
If it has flagged it up then you have braked harshly, but it is difficult to remember what caused it.
It can be simple like a strange road and a bend that's a bit harsher than you think or just a parked vehicle round a bend....it's very sensitive and the idea is to brake as though you have a glass of wine on the dashboard without spilling it!
Pat
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>>>a strange road and a bend that's a bit harsher than you think or just a parked vehicle round a bend.<<<
So driving too fast for the circumstances then?
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>> >>>a strange road and a bend that's a bit harsher than you think or just
>> a parked vehicle round a bend.<<<
>>
>> So driving too fast for the circumstances then?
That's a bit too glib. It's too fast if you can't stop, not if you have to brake hard.
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braking hard I can accept, but braking harshly to me implies panic?
1. Dictionary defines as
in a manner that is unpleasantly rough or jarring to the senses.
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If you say so Sherlock, you're the man of experience of trundling 44 tonnes around the country in all weathers, after all.
No doubt you're far better qualified to judge.
Off back to getting into the spirit of Christmas, because it surely isn't to be found on here.
Pat
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"trundling"
Fantastic word, my x-wife was always using it.
But a shopping trolley would trundle. R2D2 would trundle. A lorry would rumble.
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>> "trundling"
>>
>> Fantastic word, my x-wife was always using it.
>>
As in "fancy a bit of trundling tonight love"?
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No, you're wrong there.
A lorry only rumbles if you don't like them otherwise the throaty sound of a V8 trundling along a country lane is music to the ears.
Certainly it's a better sound than some of the Bah Humbug grumpy comments we're getting on here today!
Pat
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They definitely rumble.
Was Cannonball an inspiration?
Barrelin' down the highway
Wheelin' right along
Hear the tires hummin'
Hummin' out a song
The rumble of the diesel
The shiftin' of the gears
The rhythm when he's rollin'
It's music to his ears
Cannonba-a-a-ll! Cannonba-a-a-ll!
Any kind of weather
Any time of day
When the rig is ready
He'll be on his way
He'll carry any cargo
He'll go anywhere
Name the destination
And brother, he'll be there
Cannonba-a-a-ll! Cannonba-a-a-ll!
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>>He'll be on his way
He'll carry any cargo
He'll go anywhere
Name the destination
And brother, he'll be there<<
Put in 'she' instead of 'he' and that CG, was my inspiration in the early 80's.
It's what I aspired to, what I worked so hard to be, and corny though it sounds, it worked.
That song and the Yorkie advert!
Pat
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Shown on ITV. in early sixties.
The truck seems to have shrunk since I last watched it. In my memory it was huge.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=umvbqPUMoKg
Last edited by: CGNorwich on Wed 20 Dec 17 at 17:33
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www.youtube.com/watch?v=DCeQNPJtMWY
It was that one that finally gave me the courage to follow my dream!
Pat
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On the subject of ads, I wonder if this is what persuaded Zero to get a Capri?
www.youtube.com/watch?v=1TexDgI6yww
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>> On the subject of ads, I wonder if this is what persuaded Zero to get
>> a Capri?
>>
>> www.youtube.com/watch?v=1TexDgI6yww
No it was this one
www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gky7g9vvK_c
(the bloke in RRs link is clearly wearing a syrup, so it could be FM2R)
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My first job as a photographer, I'd turn up to work on my RD250 and take over the boss's car and drive all over the south east in one of these, a 2.0 S:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=69MJVQH9pFQ
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Yeah they were really crass by then.
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In hindsight maybe though they were cooler than the coolest thing from Coolchester to a not so cool 19 year old in 1981. Well a 3.0 S was a little cooler I suppose.
Actually I genuinely like that mark, the dash was great.
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>> Yeah they were really crass by then.
>>
The Mk3 was my second Capri, bought a few years after I sold the Mk1 Facelift. It was a huge disappointment, not a patch on the original.
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the mk1 facelift was the one to have
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Pat,
Good to know that you, with your years of experience trundling round the country, can excuse others from making errors of judgement that would result in a fail on a driving test. Why should an employer not ask for reasons?
'
Most people on here, (myself included), would self-criticise when making a similar error of judgement. Surely the standards to be expected from a 'professional' HGV driver should be even higher.
Last edited by: sherlock47 on Fri 22 Dec 17 at 11:16
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Sherlock, you obviously have no experience whatsoever of driving a vehicle fitted with a full telematics system with settings geared up for fuel and maintenance economy and indirectly to improve the profitability of the company.
I don't have a problem with any of the above but I did explain further up this thread, had you have read it, that the sensitivity of the 'harsh' braking is such that you should be able to have a full wine glass on your dashboard and brake at all times, on all types of road, fully laden at 44 tonnes or empty, without spilling any.
I presume you are able to do this in your car and would be happy for any wine spilled when you used your brake to be classed as harsh braking? I presume when it happens, you will self-criticise?
How did you get from that to me making excuses for errors of judgement that would be a fail on a driving test?
How did we get that I disapprove of an employer de-brief?
I don't, but I like many other drivers have difficulty remembering what happened at 10.27 last Tuesday morning.
>> Surely the standards to be expected from a 'professional' HGV driver should be even higher.<<
They are, that's why we're accountable for our errors of judgement and not just allowed to 'self-criticize'.
The fact that so many of us have been in work for so many years, and manage to hold down jobs despite telematics debriefs, proves the higher standards.
A point for you to ponder....telematics on a lorry are not fitted for road safety purposes.
Pat
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Black Boxes: Would you have one? - CGNorwich
