I'm reading elsewhere that Tesla have problems with supply of the Model 3, and this is supposedly the result of production line issues mainly with an inability to program the robots which do the bodywork welding.
The view seems to be that this could seriously impact not only demand for the new mode, but also Tesla's whole future. They already keep having to ask investors for more and more cash.
But apparently they are about to announce a truck on Thursday. So that's OK then...
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After watching Model 3 reviews on YouTube, I was underwhelmed.
It is an excellent computer on wheels.
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Tesla are haemorrhaging cash. The company has taken deposits, borrowed a fortune, and hardly produced any vehicles. Unsustainable!
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You heard it here first :-) Still seems to be a wish rather than a reality
www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-42021713
Last edited by: smokie on Sat 18 Nov 17 at 13:36
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Is Tesla going to be another Delorean?
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>> You heard it here first :-) Still seems to be a wish rather than a reality
>>
>> www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-42021713
>>
plus 775 responses
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There is an article in this week's Auto Express about a village, Whitewall in Heartfordshire. Due to short commutes to nearby towns and rail station there are a high proportion of EVs. The article is primarily about buying used EVs but a comment from one owner in the village was"If there are any more Leafs in the village, the lights might go dim if we all plugged in at once". No doubt said in jest but a hint of things to come?
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I totally agree Auntie Lockbrakes.
- around a billion $ burnt in a quarter.
- only a few hundred Model 3's produced. Most with all options - so not that cheap. No where near the thousands needed.
- quality and after market servicing problems which other expensive marks don't have.
I think the likes of Hyundai have more chance of producing a mass market cheap electric. e.g. Ioniq.
The other manufacturers like Volvo and Audi could clean up the reasonable luxury end.
This is a sentiment shared by Steve Wozniak (founder of Apple and Model S owner).
See www.cnbc.com/2017/10/25/steve-wozniak-theres-way-too-much-hype-around-elon-musks-tesla.html
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>>The other manufacturers like Volvo and Audi could clean up the reasonable luxury end
5 years since Model S came out and they're still nowhere near.
Jaguar iPace might be in with a shout but when is it available and how much will it cost?
www.jaguar.co.uk/jaguar-range/i-pace-concept-car/index.html
Looks waaaaaaaaaaay better than the Model X
Last edited by: Lygonos on Mon 27 Nov 17 at 15:52
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It will be far easier for the established manufacturer's to produce an all electric car in mass production and for Tesla to mass produce what they have. And Tesla are trying to make it easier on themselves by mostly using a central 17" LCD screen on the Model 3... I'd rather a conventional interior thank you.
And so I would expect VW group, BMW, Mercedes, Hyundai/KIA, GM and Volvo (Etc) to catch up very quickly. What clever stuff has Tesla got?
And don't forget they open sourced all they had (or they said they would).
I suspect Elon wants to automate more of the production than the other marques do today and is struggling.
For the mainstream, good looking (inside and out) for cars is a must. I know people who put down deposits for a Model 3 before anyone had seen it. I'd ask for my money back but leave a small amount for the designer to buy glasses.
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>> After watching Model 3 reviews on YouTube, I was underwhelmed.
>>
>> It is an excellent computer on wheels.
>>
Yes, a large tablet only display in the middle and surrounded by a lot of electronics. The interior looks like a car from British Leyland and their ilk. Atrocious IMHO of course. The only advantage perhaps with a Tesla is that it has battery management for temperature etc which I believe the Nissan Leaf and Renault Zoe don't have? Battery temperature management in very cold/hot weather is essential.
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Zoe has battery temperature management, guv, always has. Do five or six motorway rapid charges consecutively in a Leaf and it all gets too much for it. And it takes a VERY long time for them to cool down.
No such issue in a Zoe.
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Tesla is a disruptive technology. Often it is said that it is easier to do 200% improvement compared to doing 10% improvement.
Because in case of former, you must try with a new set of approach and tools but with the latter, you'd be trying to achieve improvement with existing tools.
Traditional car manufacturers tried to offer features which would make driving/journey more enjoyable. But Tesla, from the beginning, assumed driving is a chore and many people might try to avoid it altogether - so started with autonomous driving in their value proposition model.
I now wonder whether other car manufactuers deliberately tried not to offer a better electric car. It could be a Kodak moment for them as they were trying to keep market for ink cartidges alive by not introducing digital cameras with full range of offerings.
Even though I don't think I can afford a Tesla in near future, I wish them all the success. In a decade or so, EV could become mainstream, thanks to companies like Tesla.
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>> It could be a Kodak moment for them as they were trying to keep
>> market for ink cartidges alive by not introducing digital cameras with full range of offerings.
>>
I think you mean the market for film?
One of Kodak's key mistakes was to slash the price of film as demand dropped resulting in reduced margins, reduced volumes and increased costs as the economies of scale reduced. Whereas if they had recognised that digital was coming to the fore (around the advent of 4/5mp cameras) then they could have increased the price of film so as to maintain margins as it went from mainstream to niche.
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The Tesla is a car. A car with a different power plant and fuel. Car makers have been putting different power plants in car since they started making cars. Tesla autonomous tech? Its nothing cutting edge, and Audi is set to out do it next year.
At the end of the day Tesla is a car making company, a new one, and they havnt got to grips with mass producing and supporting cars and making a profit. They might never, because it a skill they know nothing about.
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>>I think you mean the market for film?
I read that Kodak directors were chemical engineers. They didn't want to kill film camera as they thought Kodak would make money by printing films.
>> Tesla autonomous tech? Its nothing cutting edge,
It is not the technology but thought process.
Tesla considers a car as a computer which can also perform the function of a car.
Other car manufacturers offer some computer functionality in an object which they basically consider as cars.
Both cases might seem same but different line of thinking can lead to disruptive strategies.
Other brands have both ICE and EVs so they are trying to balance one segment against another. Tesla just has EV - so much easier to focus.
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>> >> Tesla autonomous tech? Its nothing cutting edge,
>>
>> It is not the technology but thought process.
>>
>> Tesla considers a car as a computer which can also perform the function of a
>> car.
The majority part of their product is car. Car is the tricky part.
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Well I test drove a Model S a few weeks ago whilst looking for a replacement for my Outlander PHEV. Quiet, comfortable, amazing performance (this was the P85D model so not top of the range nor bottom). The average range on that car was showing 246 miles on a full charge and the rep who used the car daily did not hang around.
246 miles would be more than enough for me most days. On an occasion when I needed more I would be using motorways so easy to use the free for life supercharger network.
Of course the main issue is the price, 80k or so is too much for me at the moment. Second hand would be interesting, a 2 year old car for 50k could be tempting. Nothing much mechanical to really go wrong and the batteries have a long no quibble warranty.
All in all I was very impressed. It did not feel badly put together, went like the absolute wind and I had a play with the autonomous driving which is impressive once you get your head around letting it take over steering for you.
Yes it could be better, but as a demonstration of a possible future for automotive transport I am sold.
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>> this was the P85D model so not top of the range nor bottom
No longer made. The equivalent current model is the P100D because the P85D used to be the range topper. There's also a P75D these days.
>> On an occasion when I needed more I would be using motorways so easy to use the free for
>> life supercharger network.
Two points: (1) the Tesla supercharger network is mostly at Tesla dealers and more importantly (2) any new Tesla Model S does not come with free access to this network because they stopped this some time ago. It was not a business model that could be sustained and was used to tempt early adopters.
Have you looked where these are - but then you'd not have free use if you bought a new car. And on that map they are not all superchargers.
www.tesla.com/en_GB/findus?redirect=no#/bounds/53.4548791,-1.9923315999999431,53.3272977,-2.246872899999971,d?search=store,service,supercharger,destination%20charger
www.tesla.com/en_GB/support/supercharging
Last edited by: rtj70 on Mon 20 Nov 17 at 22:51
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Hmm, may have been a 75 then. It was a few months old so I guess could have been an 85. V quick whatever it was. I was not ready for him when he put his foot down and I dont mind telling you that I let out an involuntary squeal! The dealer was very clear with me that the supercharger network was still free of charge. Looking at the map in the car itself at the supercharging network they were mostly at motorway service stations plus other key locations such as the Channel Tunnel and on major A roads. There were also grey icons showing where the next phase of chargers were planned for.
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£50k second hand, could hold its value or could plummet when the EV tech step change happens be it from Tesla or someone else.
And that 246 miles range, was that with cabin heating? Kind of vital in Northern Europe at this time of year. It's probably 220 miles tops so that's 200 miles without any nail biting. Wouldn't get me to Manchester or Sheffield ...
II do like the EV idea though reality doesn't yet match the idea.
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Cheapest Model S on Tesla website, 2014 P85D, 48k miles, £39500.
I wonder if the battery performance is as it was when new.
They do include free supercharging, not sure how that works commercially.
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>> They do include free supercharging, not sure how that works commercially.
They did. Now they do not include unlimited access to the supercharging network for Model S and X vehicles. You get about 400kWh free a year. Model 3 will have no free access to superchargers.
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>> Cheapest Model S on Tesla website, 2014 P85D, 48k miles, £39500.
>>
Sorry, it's an 85, not a P85D.
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>> when the EV tech step change happens be it from Tesla or someone else.
>>
Is this when you step over the horizon? :-)
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You get about 1000 miles per annum free - dealer is lying to you. It is no longer unlimited.
Check out the map I put the link for and you'll see many of the locations (other than the dealers) are not supercharger charging points because the kWh ratings are a lot lower so no very rapid charging.
The grey icons on their map are basically locations where there are chargers that do not belong to Tesla.
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To be fair the website says free supercharging ...
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But no longer unlimited :-)
From this link:
www.tesla.com/en_GB/blog/update-our-supercharging-program
Ensuring Use for Long-Distance Travel
For Teslas ordered after January 1, 2017, 400 kWh of free Supercharging credits (roughly 1,000 miles) will be included annually so that all owners can continue to enjoy free Supercharging during travel. Beyond that, there will be a small fee to Supercharge which will be charged incrementally and cost less than the price of filling up a comparable gas car. All cars will continue to come standard with the on board hardware required for Supercharging.
Granted the charge is probably reasonable for anything above 400 kWh but it's not free.
They announced this just over a year ago.
Makes the man maths more difficult if you can't charge for free for life. I have a Tesla dealer fairly local so could have had free charges for life if I got a car last year. It will have been a factor in the calculations when my brother got his Model S.
Incidentally, the Model S 60 can be updated to the 75 because they both have the same battery packs. It's all to do with keeping initial purchase price low in the US for road tax purposes.
My link suggests the Model 3 is included.... I thought it was not.
Last edited by: rtj70 on Tue 21 Nov 17 at 00:02
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Above I say I could get free charging forever if I'd ordered a Tesla before January this year. But lets to the maths.....
I do about 8000 miles a year at the moment for personal mileage. So over 10 years that's 80k miles. My petrol Superb (and previous Audi A3) cost about 14p/mile for petrol but over ten years lets call it 20p/mile. Total fuel cost is £16,000. Audi and Superb are £30k cars brand new. Maths do not work out really do they. Not unless you do more miles.
And buy a second hand Tesla reduces that cost but a second hand Superb is cheaper than £30k.
Doing much more miles in the Tesla then gets more difficult because you need to charge it more often.
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>> Maths do not work out really do
>> they. Not unless you do more miles.
>>
To be fair the Model S comparison would not be with a £30k car, it would be more S-Class, 7-Series etc, though I agree, it's difficult to add up.
If in cash terms a diesel exec costs 20p/mile in fuel then 15k miles a year over three years would cost £9k, not a lot when you're in the realm of £70k + purchase price. So let's say you compare a £100k Model S and an £80k 7-Series, if they both are worth 50% after three years and 45k then already the BMW has covered it's fuel costs, and that's assuming that the Tesla costs nothing to charge, which of course it doesn't ...
Last edited by: Hard Cheese on Tue 21 Nov 17 at 09:04
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Does everything need to be cost-efficient these days?
My recent purchase was a bad one financially but I bought a car I fancied owning, and may or may not keep it for a while depending how I get on with it. It was a bad financial decision not least as I was previously running an older car which owed me nothing and cost very little to maintain, insure and run. But I don't regret it, and having spent the money I quite like some of the savings that come with it. They won't ever match the outlay though...
I suppose I'm unusual here in that I don't especially regard cars as status symbols, and I am especially unfazed by a particular badge on a car.
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Probably would not compare an A3 to a model S to be fair more like an A6 or 8 in terms of size. In terms of performance more like an RS6 on steroids! The thing is quicker off the line than my BiLs Caterham620R.
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>>The thing is quicker off the line than my BiLs Caterham620R.
100D is a very fast car - watch how it compares to the P100D though... (go to 1:30 for the 1st race)
www.youtube.com/watch?v=MytoCFpYCWE
Ok, so that's pretty f***in' impressive.... but watch the McLaren 720S vs the P100D - no wonder Musk wants a faster car...
www.youtube.com/watch?v=oJYBy1GesDM
(first race at 2:40 - McLaren takes about 4 seconds to pull clear - of course that's at about 90mph)
Last edited by: Lygonos on Tue 21 Nov 17 at 22:04
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The party trick for the Tesla is it's 0-62mph time.... but then the lighter more powerful 720S gets in it's stride. That 720S is a very quick car :-)
I wonder which would get the furthest on a full charge/full tank?
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Yes an A8 or probably an RS7 would be a better comparison.
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Perhaps free supercharging on pre '17 cars is transferable ...
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Free Supercharging is transferable.
Although it was removed early this year it was added back in a few months later for those using a referral code to buy a new car (basically everyone) along with a £750 discount. I think it was removed once again at the end of October so you just get the discount with the code.
Superchargers aren't mostly at Tesla dealers as mentioned above: most are dotted around the motorway network and at large hotels.
www.tesla.com/en_GB/findus#/bounds/55,2,52,-6?search=supercharger&name=Europe
Last edited by: Lygonos on Tue 21 Nov 17 at 00:54
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How many kW's does a SuperCharger need to charge a Tesla quickly. According to Tesla's own map, some of their 'SuperCharger' points are 7kWh.
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Superchargers are around 120kW.
The 3-22kW jobbies are 'destination chargers' which basically means normal AC chargers with Tesla logos that can be used by any electric car - usually at fancy hotels.
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And the new 'Mega chargers' touted for the new truck are to be 1200 kW !!!
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Reading about it - most Superchargers are 145kw though the cars can "only" take 120kw. However each station features two chargers so if two cars are charging together they will only get a max of 72.5kw.
£0.15 seems to be a fairly competitive price per KW for electricity, so a full 75 min Model S charge would cost about £22.50 not allowing for any retail margins, probably 10p a mile based on a real world range allowing for aircon, heating, enthusiastic driving etc.
A litre of diesel is £1.20 currently so £5.45/gal, a G11 740d will do 35mpg easily, so that's 15.5p a mile.
A litre of Petrol is £1.18 currently so £5.35/gal, a G11 740i will do 25mpg easily, so that's 21.4p a mile.
There are lot's of aspects of the Model S that really appeal however it's not an order of magnitude cheaper to run and the charge time is the real barrier, a Supercharger giving 170 miles approx of range in 30 mins @120kw, whereas the 740d/i can be given 400-600 miles range in 5 mins.
Last edited by: Hard Cheese on Tue 21 Nov 17 at 10:41
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In some reliability surveys, Tesla scored poorly.
While browsing a car magazine last night, I noticed that 37% of Tesla owners reported some problem - this is in line with brands like Jeep, Land Rover etc. The top most reliability marques were, as usual, Honda/Toyota/Suzuki etc.
I would have expected Tesla to be more reliable considering it has far fewer parts compared to conventional cars.
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To he fair on Tesla it's about expectations, if you spend £100k plus in a car you have very high expectations.
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Interesting article from Bloomberg, in the last 12 months they have burned through $8000 per minute!!
NEW YORK -- Elon Musk said last week that Tesla is designing a new sports car that could go from 0 to 60 mph in 1.9 seconds. Not bad, but here’s a speed number that investors might want to focus on instead:
Over the past 12 months, the electric-car maker has been burning money at a clip of about $8,000 a minute (or $480,000 an hour), Bloomberg data show. At this pace, the company is on track to exhaust its current cash pile on Monday, Aug. 6.
To be fair, few Tesla watchers expect the cash burn to continue at quite such a breakneck pace, and the company itself says it’s ramping up output of its all-important Model 3, which will bring money in the door. Investors don’t seem concerned. Tesla shares rose almost 3 percent to $317.81 Tuesday, giving it a market capitalization of $53 billion. Ford Motor Co. is worth $48 billion.
But still, Tesla's need for fresh cash came into high relief last week when Musk unveiled his latest plan to raise funds. He’s asking customers to pay him upfront to order vehicles that may not be delivered for years.
The Founders Series Roadster will cost buyers a $250,000 down payment even though it’s not coming for more than two years. Orders of those cars are capped at 1,000, meaning they alone could generate $250 million. Tesla is charging a total of $50,000 for reservations of the regular Roadster. Companies can also pre-order electric Semi trucks for $5,000, though they don’t go into production until 2019.
But all this is a pittance compared with Tesla’s financial needs. It’s blowing through more than $1 billion a quarter thanks to massive investment in making the Model 3, a $35,000 car that’s looking less likely to generate a return anytime soon.
“Whether they can last another 10 months or a year, he needs money, and quickly,†said Kevin Tynan, senior analyst with Bloomberg Intelligence, who estimates Tesla will be required to raise at least $2 billion in fresh capital by mid-2018.
Ample money
Tesla has said it has ample money to meet its target of producing 5,000 Model 3 sedans by the end of March. After that date, the company expects to “generate significant cash flows from operating activities,†Tesla said in a Nov. 1 letter to shareholders. Tesla’s capital expenditures should also decline as the company pays off its expenses related to the Model 3, CFO Deepak Ahuja said on a conference call the same day.
Dave Arnold, a spokesman for Tesla, declined to elaborate.
Tesla’s options are limited.
It’s already drawing down on more of its revolving credit facilities than ever before. And while the bond market is a possible route, it may not be especially welcoming right now. Investors who bought $1.8 billion of debt three months ago remain under water even after the notes recovered a bit from a low of 93.88 cents on the dollar early this month.
That may leave selling equity as the most viable option. But that, of course, would dilute existing shareholders, and Musk, at 20 percent, is the biggest.
“So long as the company is burning cash, it will remain dependent on the patience and enthusiasm of public markets or the deep pockets of a white knight,†said Christian Hoffmann, a money manager at Thornburg Investment Management
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I saw a Tesla 85D in an ALDI car park this morning, is this a diesel?
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P85D or 85D? P for performance, 85 for 85kw battery and D for dual motor i.e. AWD - IIRC ...
Last edited by: Hard Cheese on Fri 24 Nov 17 at 00:10
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>> I saw a Tesla 85D in an ALDI car park this morning, is this a diesel?
Are you having a very senior moment or a laugh? Tesla only makes electric cars and you know that.
The D will signify a motor on both axles - Dual.
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I'm not that senior, yet. :-)
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Curiosity post really!
We were in a hotel on Saturday night and looking out of the window of our room we noticed 4 Tesla charging points.
We only saw one car use them and he was only plugged in for 10 minutes....how far would that get him?
Pat
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>> We only saw one car use them and he was only plugged in for 10 minutes....how far would that get him?
Most charging posts around the country that are not at a Tesla dealer are apparently only branded as Tesla Superchargers. Presumably because to get the electric supply needed is not that straightforward (the local Tesla dealer had the A6 dug up to get their power sorted).
So if not a proper Supercharger station (i.e. not capable of up to 120kWh) , they won't have got far. If it was a proper Supercharger then 30 minutes is meant to charge to 80%. But many will be 22kWh or less so they won't have got nearly as far.
Last edited by: rtj70 on Tue 5 Dec 17 at 11:52
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Linked to this in another post too, but it sort of helps Pat's question.
shop.mobilityhouse.com/de_en/ladezeitenuebersicht
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>>We were in a hotel on Saturday night and looking out of the window of our room we noticed 4 Tesla charging points.
Some Tesla Superchargers are based in hotels - they will only charge Tesla cars and manage around 170 miles of range in 30 minutes of charging - so ~60 miles from a 10 minute squirt.
Many hotel chargers will be 'destination chargers' which can be used by any car and deliver between 7-22kW maximum - they are basically normal AC chargers with a Tesla logo box on it - they will dish out around 12-40 miles per 30 mins of charging depending upon the charger and the car using it.
Which hotel was it? 4 is an unusual number of destination chargers so they may have been the 'real' ones like at the Arundell Arms Hotel in Lifton.
tinyurl.com/yaldkfh7 is a map of full-fat chargers owned by Tesla - if you hit the 'destination charger' tab you will see the affiliated ones around the country, usually but not always limited to patrons of the establishments they are at.
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That link has solved it Lygonos.
They were superchargers on the M11 at Stanstead.
We blinked and he's gone but it did look quite nice I have to admit.
We didn't have a lot of choice as we needed a short hop up to Addenbrookes on Monday morning for Ian's annual appointment.
Incidentally, he was finally discharged after 15 years of being a cancer patient. It's a bit scary really coming away without an appointment card.
Pat
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>>Incidentally, he was finally discharged after 15 years of being a cancer patient. It's a bit scary really coming away without an appointment card.<<
Well we're over the moon and couldn't have wished for a better Christmas present.......even if it seems no-one on here has noticed:)
Pat
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Well I like to think I read most posts here and I missed it!!
Good news indeed!!!
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It's a bit of a happy milestone for us that's been a long time coming and it's nice to share!
Pat
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Really pleased for the two of you. What a nice present. I never knew the all clear could take 15 years.
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It was two bouts of Cancer and the second one came after the all clear for 4.5 years after the first one. That's why we were so pleased to get to 10 years this time!
Hodgkins the first time, then Testicular Terratoma stage 4 (as it was graded then) 10 years ago.
Pat
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Yes, excellent news for Christmas - you must be very happy with that.
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That's great news, Pat! Have a splendid Christmas.
Busy ol' place, Addenbrookes; I'm near the top of their list for an open radical nephrectomy - looks like it'll be in January.
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Hope it all goes well for you Haywain.
Pat
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Thanks, Pat. I made the mistake of checking the spelling of nephrectomy on Google and saw 'open radical nephrectomy'. I think I got it slightly wrong - it's an open nephrectomy, but I think that the term 'radical' means that they need to take out other bits as well. AFIK, they only want to whip a kidney out. It's 'open' because they are unable to perform key-hole surgery; I've got a herniated diaphragm and, if air were blown into my lower torso, it would get into the top bit and I'll go up like a barrage-balloon. Something like that, anyway!
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Addenbrookes are excellent Haywain. Ian had to go in for 5 days every 3 weeks for 3 months to have his chemo vis a drip and be watched closely as he's had a lot at the previous Hodgkins session and he wouldn't hear a bad word said about them.
You'll be in safe hands there.
Pat
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Yes the good news is they are out of special measures now and the The Care Quality Commission (CQC) has changed the rating for Cambridge University Hospitals Trust from "inadequate" to "good".
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Echoing Pat's comments Haywain, wishing you the best!
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Sorry, missed that, great news!
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>> Well we're over the moon and couldn't have wished for a better Christmas present.......even if
>> it seems no-one on here has noticed:)
Well it is in the thread inhabited by the Duracell bunnies,
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Happy for both of you that Ian has been signed off. My five years is up next summer.
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www.techradar.com/news/tesla-owner-uses-free-supercharger-power-for-pure-bitcoin-mining-profit
By using free super chargers and having a mining rig (a powerful computer) in his boot!
Cleaver - if true!
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Tesla - Tesla Model 3 production problems? - movilogo
