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An acquaintance had a mild hybrid Honda (Civic?) Which was traded for a Leaf. Like me he is a pensioner who likes to roam around although usually not as far as me. He was less than impressed when attempting a 100 mile round trip he had to charge the car to get home. On complaining to the dealer that the car was faulty he was informed that 80 miles was an average working range. The lack of research must have cost him dear, after eight weeks he traded it in for a Jazz. Scotland is a big place with a population less than London and well spread out. I don't know about charging points but the distances involved in travelling about up here make battery power a non starter for anything other than local urban travel.
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Lots of these tree-huggers are Metropolitan and think that a solitary tree is rural.
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I think most people who use a car for longish distances realise that electric cars are probably not a viable transport solution for them unless they have other transport available fo longer journeys.
That said electric cars are already a viable solution for many. Huge numbers of cars in urban areas never travel more than twenty miles in one journeys. I do not understand why some constantly need to denigrate electric vehicles and use terms like "tree hugger" for anyone who would prefer their city to be free of noxious car exhaust fumes.
As for Scotland, yes the population in rural areas is thinly spreads and if you live in these areas an electric vehicle would clearly be unviable at present. However Scotland's population is mostly located in the Central Belt with most of that living in the conurbations of Glasgow and Edinburgh. I am sure there are a number for whom an electric vehicle would be just fine.
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>>Scotland's population is mostly located in the Central Belt with most of that living in the
>> conurbations of Glasgow and Edinburgh. I am sure there are a number for whom an
>> electric vehicle would be just fine.
>>
Glasgow and Edinburgh are 50 miles apart, assume a 25 mile commuter belt radius around each, (many commute from the suburbs of one to the other) and the Forth bridge congestion is caused by commuters from as far north as Perth. One of my commutes was a 140 mile round trip drive, I also did the Glasgow to Kyle of Lochalsh (four hours 180 miles) drive regularly. There is life outside the central belt as there is outside the M25. You may remember I posted about a friend whose VRS died having been used as a a a 60 mile round trip motorway commuter waggon. As have said battery power is for local urban use, great for shopping trolley use but not much else. I did 95 miles today, a little more than an average day but not much. One lot of kids and grandkids are a 100 mile round trip, usually done fortnightly. I don't do fuel guage stress, batteries are a non event for me.
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>> Glasgow and Edinburgh are 50 miles apart, assume a 25 mile commuter belt radius around
>> each, (many commute from the suburbs of one to the other) and the Forth bridge
>> congestion is caused by commuters from as far north as Perth. One of my commutes
>> was a 140 mile round trip drive
We all get the idea that you don't think electric suits for you. But that doesn't negate electric solution for a fair chunk of Central Belt. Plenty English conurbations such as West/South Yorkshire and Manchester/Merseyside are on similar scales.
Your 140 mile round trip would be do-able now. Easy with a charge facility at work end but no longer impossible without.
While electrics are not yet long distance cruisers the shopping trolley image is long gone.
Having totally renewed my fleet in last four years on the basis of two interchangeable mid size diesels I'm not immediately in market to change. But if Roomster was written off tomorrow I'd certainly look at Leaf/Zoe or a PHEV as a replacement albeit requiring some change in how fleet is disperse/utilized.
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" Range extended to 155 miles with optional 30kWh battery from September 2015"
www.honestjohn.co.uk/carbycar/nissan/leaf-2010/
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The vast majority of my journeys are no more than 50 miles and most are less. For that, an electric vehicle would be fine.
But several times a year I visit two of my kids and grandchildren, which involves a round trip of about 650 miles. As that is spread over three days I suppose I could find somewhere at or near the hotel for overnight charging, but the first leg is over 200 miles and on the third day it's 50 miles to a private address, then a short run to a local restaurant (could I charge there?), then back to the private address, then a short time afterwards the final leg of 170 miles or so.
Unless I'm missing something, I don't see that an electric car would work for me.
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It would for the "vast majority" of your journeys though. And it's be a lot cheaper to run, so you could maybe rent a car for those long journeys, or use public transport with some of your savings.
I've had my car (Vauxhall Ampera) just over a month and have now done over 900 miles using only 3.9 gallons of fossil fuel :-) Because most of my journeys are no more than 40 miles... And it's the most fun I've had driving for quite some years.
Moving to a solely electric car is a big jump for many but there are alternatives... And anyway, many leccy car owners also run a fossil fuel car for those occasional long journeys ( - many households run two cars anyway don't they?). (And Nissan used to, and maybe still do, offer a loan car for up to 2 weeks a years for purchasers of new Leafs, in recognition that the Leaf does not fit all the time).
And btw I don't see myself as a tree hugger, though in this context it's not really a bad thing, as has been pointed out above. Beat being a dinosaur anyway... :-)
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>> I've had my car (Vauxhall Ampera) just over a month and have now done over
>> 900 miles using only 3.9 gallons of fossil fuel :-) Because most of my journeys
>> are no more than 40 miles... And it's the most fun I've had driving for
>> quite some years.
I admire your practicality, common sense, logic and research, clearly its a well thought out and appropriate strategy.
But fun? FUN? you really are missing out on a shed load of stuff in your life.
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Surely there is a cost to charge these cars...or have I missed something?
Pat
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>> Surely there is a cost to charge these cars...or have I missed something?
>>
>> Pat
Currently (ho ho) its cheap enough to be an insignificant motoring cost.
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Mine takes about 12Kwh to charge from empty, that gives me an electric range of up to about 45 miles but that can be reduced by numerous factors - but it won't ever would drop below about 25, AIUI.
I am coming to the end of an MSE collective where my leccy is costing under 9p a Kwh so about a quid to give me about the same miles as a gallon would cost (£6+). My next leccy plan won't be under 11.x a Kwh so my cost will go up. But on sunny days the solar takes care of some/all of the required electricity.
I've probably said elsewhere but my car doesn't charge quickly, nor does it have to have electricity to run. So public charging isn't really something I would usually be interested in, though I do carry a cable in case a free and convenient opportunity presents itself.
It seems to do about 50 mpg when the engine is running (to provide power to the electric wheels driving the car) so reasonably economical even without the leccy (it will do regen on slowing/braking and you can see from the display that it is using small amounts of leccy in certain conditions even when I've switched it to ICE mode.)
I think it's worth bearing in mind that generally servicing and maintenance costs ought to be lower on a fully electric car, as there really isn't half as much to go wrong, or fettle with, under the bonnet.
Just out of interest, there is a Chevvy Bolt (essentially the same as my car) which has just passed 400k miles in the US, although he must do quite a bit of driving on petrol as his overall mpg is relatively low. I'm guessing it's being run as a cab or something as they seem to be managing at least two charges some days. www.voltstats.net/Stats/Details/1579
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>> Just out of interest, there is a Chevvy Bolt (essentially the same as my car)
>> which has just passed 400k miles in the US, although he must do quite a
>> bit of driving on petrol as his overall mpg is relatively low.
Don't forget our gallons are 20% bigger than his......
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Yeah but the more serious UK eco-warriors with this particular car seem to exceed lifetime 200+ mpg from these cars. If you had a commute of, say, 40 miles per day you can do the round trip on electric, recharge overnight, and never touch petrol. My lifetime is on about 68 mpg and slowly creeping up. The previous owner clearly didn't bother too much about recharging, or maybe he was doing lots of long journeys.
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>>
If you had a commute of, say, 40 miles per
>> day you can do the round trip on electric, recharge overnight, and never touch petrol.
>>
The problem there being that unleaded starts to go off after three months, so after eleven and a half months of running on electric only your 200 mile holiday trip might be a problem when you switch to the petrol that's been swilling around untouched for a year.
When I bought my last bike it had been standing for nearly two years and it sounded like someone hammering on a biscuit tin when I eventually got it started, running on just one of the two cylinders. It needed the tank drained and the carb stripped and cleaned before it would run properly.
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Superunleaded tends to be resistant to going off - use it in my lawnmowers for that reason.
I believe the range extender BMW i3 has some pressurising gubbins to prevent the fuel degrading.
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The Ampera recognises when there is old petrol and the engine hasn't been run for a bit, and runs the engine once it determines the fuel is stale.
EDIT: thread here on owners forum speakev.com/threads/year-3-service-fuel-wash-out.48449/
Last edited by: smokie on Mon 11 Sep 17 at 19:09
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How does it burn only the older petrol ;-)
I assume you're meant to use it all before refilling or something?
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>> How does it burn only the older petrol ;-)
>>
>> I assume you're meant to use it all before refilling or something?
>>
I guess it doesn't let it get stale?
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I've no idea precisely how it works but there is a lot of very smart technology under the bonnets of today's cars. I don't keep much petrol in it, just put a bit in when I think I might need some. It's not worth lugging it around all the time if I don't need it!!
I was reading tonight that my 3 year service and MOT will probably come in under £100. Insurance was only the same as the old Focus. Tax is zero. Zero London congestion charge (once I've paid the £10 "registration" fee!!). Probably faster 0 - 30 than most ICE cars owned here. Quiet at all speeds, and comfortable with it. Non-polluting in use. No "range anxiety". Infrequent visits to the petrol station. What's not to like? :-)
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>> What's not to like?
It's a Vauxhall.
I thought I'd say it before anyone else does ;)
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I have a 65 plate Astra as a hire car at the moment. Low quality and I dislike a lot. Drives okay but it's rubbish. But some like these I suppose.
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Hmmm, interesting!! a 2 yr old hire car. I thought hire companies pensioned them off within a year? Must be a good car to have kept it in the fleet for so long.
I bet it's got a decent set of tyres on it too ;)
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I was surprised too to be honest. It has around 35k miles on it too. I didn't think they kept them this long.
Whether it's because it's a 2 year old hire car or it's always been like it, but as a petrol 1.6 115PS it sounded more like a diesel. Much louder than my 1.4TSI.
I should have 4 new tyres in about a month. Fixed to the new car ;-)
Last edited by: rtj70 on Wed 13 Sep 17 at 11:52
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Blimey! That is high miles for a hire car.
Having previously owned 2 ex hire cars, generally they get shot of them after 6 months, or at around 20,000 miles.
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6 months was what I thought too VxFan. They have deals with Vauxhall to get cheap cars and to off load into the market at around 6 months old.
It wasn't the worse of cars. But then I only did 20 miles in it. I'd forgotten how high revs would be on the motorway in fifth at 70+mph. I've got used to diesel and petrol turbo. Mine is barely audible at 75mph the Astra was noisy and was showing around 300rpm. It could have done with a 6th gear but may not have the torque.
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>> The Ampera recognises when there is old petrol and the engine hasn't been run for
>> a bit, and runs the engine once it determines the fuel is stale.
>>
What, it starts the car up in your garage and runs it until it has used up all the petrol?
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>> The problem there being that unleaded starts to go off after three months,
It used to, but I'm convinced it's a lot better these days.
The lawnmower is put away with a full tank of unleaded over winter, and starts straight away come the following year with no dramas, misfires, etc.
Similarly with my motorbike. It gets used once in a blue moon, and still starts and runs ok. IIRC, the fuel in the tank is 2, if not 3 years old. It evaporates quicker than the engine can use it.
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>> Currently (ho ho) its cheap enough to be an insignificant motoring cost.
Call it 3 miles/kWh? Maybe 4p/mile. My Outlander has cost me 14.7p/mile in diesel over its first 5,400 miles.
Take the tax out of that and it would be 3.81p v. 5.65p
Total tax on electric per mile of c. 0.2p v. 9.1p for diesel.
So if everybody goes electric, the tax man will be looking for quite a lot of money from somewhere. It's going to be difficult to stick it on electricity, so where will it come from? Per mile charging? On roads, or cars?
Last edited by: Manatee on Tue 12 Sep 17 at 17:18
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Doesn't make much difference to your sums, nor any to your point, but 3 miles per kWh is an underestimate by some way. Never had less than 4 even in depths of winter, get about 4.8 without really trying, had it over 5.25 with effort. Newer cars are being reported at 6 or 7 now.
Last edited by: Crankcase on Tue 12 Sep 17 at 17:45
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>> but 3 miles per kWh is an underestimate by some way
My Merc runs the powerful but relatively inefficient Tesla motor - I get about 3.5-4.0 miles per kWh driving 'normally' and expect this will drop to 2.5-3.5 in the depths of winter.
It appears the Tesla Model 3 has moved to the permanent magnet motor which accounts for some of its jump in efficiency, rather than the electromagnet type in Model S/X (and Merc B).
Best for efficiency at the moment is probably the Hyundai Ioniq which gets a genuine 140-150 miles from its 28 kWh pack (compared to 100-110 for the 30kWh LEAF).
More exceptional results are found in city taxis - a chap on speakev.com who runs a Soul EV (27kWh) regularly gets 150 miles per charge as he is never on the motorway (non-taxi owners tend to get around 95-105 miles).
Last edited by: Lygonos on Tue 12 Sep 17 at 18:09
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Good point about motorway use. I get 40mpg average doing a true 70 where I can, and it's actually better on a 'run'. Would a Leaf or Zoe at 70mph be less good than when urban pottering?
My guess was from memory that a Leaf has a 34kWh battery and a true range of maybe 90 miles - I didn't check it.
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>>Would a Leaf or Zoe at 70mph be less good than when urban pottering?
Yes.
EVs have pretty much perfect stop-start characteristics, when coasting do not use power to idle or have significant pumping losses (they 'freewheel' better than most ICE cars), and all regenerate power on braking.
On constant speed motorways they lose these advantages over ICE cars and are relatively less efficient.
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Lygonos,
Apart from the obvious electric angle, is your B Class standard other than that and if so, how do you like it as a day to day car?
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>>Apart from the obvious electric angle, is your B Class standard
Pretty much
>>how do you like it as a day to day car?
Single speed auto like all EVs is like riding a wave of torque, traffic light grand prix are a foregone conclusion too.
Apparently the EV variant rides and handles better than most due to low CoG and not being as nose-heavy.
Generous bootspace, plenty of driver seat adjustability for a gangly mutant like myself, even wearing a top hat. Rear seats sit 3 kids easily and 3 adults with a mild squeeze.
Looks ok in white with the graphite 17" wheels.
Would I buy it again? For 20 grand it is/was a no-brainer but the lack of rapid charge means it can't manage a 200 mile journey without a 3 hour recharge halfway - a 2018 Kia Soul EV would be a good choice with the current £1200 + £200/mth 2 year lease ( www.drive-electric.co.uk/ ), 110-120 mile range and rapid charging - not a handsome car but you'll struggle to find a negative review from anybody.
Would I buy a petrol/diesel variant?
No - I'd get a 5 door Swift Sport while there are deals to be done and accept the smaller interior!
...or maybe a C Class 200SE for £18,665 ( www.drivethedeal.com/SpecialOffers.aspx )
Last edited by: Lygonos on Wed 13 Sep 17 at 21:00
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>>have I missed something
The big bright orb in the sky and his PV panels.
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Clearly an EV is not an option for you but many households these days have more than one vehicle available to them. In that case in examples such as yours an EV would be a viable option.
There is also of course for some the option of public transport or hiring a vehicle for things like holidays. That has the benefit of tailoring the vehicle to specific needs. A small town vehicle for commuting and a a hire roomy ICE vehicle for the family holiday.
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I can't really understand why you think the fact that an EV is not suitable for many has any bearing on its suitability for some.
You'd have to be a bit daft to buy any car which didn't suit you. Bit like me buying a little hatch and then complaining when I get it stuck in the mountains. It doesn't mean hat little hatchbacks are useless, just that I shouldn't have one in the mountains.
As it happens, an electric vehicle would work for me quite a lot of the time. No suitable infrastructure though; its all I can do to get spares and parts for the PPOS, never mind something as modern as a Leaf. If it wasn't for that, I'd love one.
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>> As it happens, an electric vehicle would work for me quite a lot of the
>> time. No suitable infrastructure though;
Well it wouldn't work for you would it. you just said its not possible.
And that is the problem for pure EV, its not flexible enough mostly because most people don't have the access to the infrastructure. I think HM Gov is hoping that will resolve itself on its own just by saying ICE will be banned. Sure kicking car makers with legislation and regulation does change the landscape but frequently not the result that was intended. Diesel is a case in point.
In my scenario, we have the two polar extremes of car requirement. Her, for mostly short runs, 60 miles a day max, mostly urban, EV is ideal. She is seriously thinking (as in likely) going Hybrid next, possibly EV. Being an urban user, charging points, if they were ever needed, will be ample and handy. There are about 5 or 6 days a year where EV wouldn't meet the travel needs
- which brings me onto the other car in the household - Me
Currently EV wont cut it under any circumstances, I frequently, as in most weekends, travel 150-200 miles to dog shows, park in a field with no electricity, stay there all day occasionally turning on the aircon or heating, and then travel 150 -200 miles again home. During the week I can be doing similar to chase and video steam trains.
Unless they get the range and fill issue fixed - as in 300-400 miles with a 10 minute max recharge, its never going to work. The current technology path will never achieve that in my lifetime. Pure EV is never going to work for me.
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>>Well it wouldn't work for you would it. you just said its not possible.
Was my meaning really not clear?
The range and recharge times would give me no issue. There is no dealer infrastructure here so service and repair would not be possible. That is not because it is electric per se.
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>> >>Well it wouldn't work for you would it. you just said its not possible.
>>
>> Was my meaning really not clear?
No it wasn't. And it wasn't any comprehension issue on my part.
You can't say something would work for me and then list a host of reasons why it wont. Now here is a genuine question, is there a good charging infrastructure for EV in Chile?
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I have no idea. I think there must be something in the city because there's a company called awto or similar which will rent you an electric car.
Certainly i have plenty of off road parking so I'd have no issue.
But if something went wrong with it you'd never get parts, even if you could find a garage to work on it.
As an illustration, the PPOS needed a new door mirror - Toyota ordered one and it took almost 5 months. Imagine if you wanted something new or obscure!
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And there is the rub. Motoring as we know it has a support structure grown organically and by need over 100 years. Motoring as we know it for the next 100 years is going to need a change in or new support infrastructure.
One of the most disruptive is Pure EV with current technology storage. The next most is Fuel Cell, the least is current technology hybrid.
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> As an illustration, the PPOS needed a new door mirror - Toyota ordered one and
>> it took almost 5 months.
You should have asked RDH, he's an expert in sourcing them by now.
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>>
>> You should have asked RDH, he's an expert in sourcing them by now.
>>
....the last one was cheap; stolen to order from a PPOS in Santiago, I understand......
;-)
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>>Now here is a genuine question, is there a good charging infrastructure for EV in Chile?
www.worldevcities.org/cities/santiago_de_chile
Good? Dunno but it does exist in the capital at least.
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>>Pure EV is never going to work for me
Don't buy one then.
Duh.
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>> >>Pure EV is never going to work for me
>>
>> Don't buy one then.
>>
>> Duh.
I didn't DUH DUH
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The next motoring scandal, how electric car "claimed" ranges can't be realistically attained by anyone!
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>> The next motoring scandal, how electric car "claimed" ranges can't be realistically attained by anyone!
>>
Kinda. With so many standards across the world territories, Renault quote the legally required numbers, say "these might not be realistic" and give you a calculator on their website to see what you will probably really get. This is a good thing.
Thing is, that has turned out to be a bit of an underestimate, with lots of people getting MORE than the claimed range. This is an even better thing.
Nissan, not so much. Just the legally required stupid figures. Pinch of salt required, as you might expect.
Tesla - range? Is that even a thing?
Last edited by: Crankcase on Mon 11 Sep 17 at 18:57
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>> Clearly an EV is not an option for you but many households these days have
>> more than one vehicle available to them. In that case in examples such as yours
>> an EV would be a viable option.
I agree, I'm quite intrigued and tempted by the idea of having an EV for local-ish trips. But it will not happen until there is a secondhand market. When a used Leaf in good order with recent MOT and new batteries costs £2,000, I'll get one, and so will thousands of other people.
But I'm not going to waste real money on investing in something that will lose most of its value within 5-10 years. I've always expected my cars to keep their value and last indefinitely.
>> and a a hire roomy ICE vehicle for
>> the family holiday.
>>
But that implies that it will still be possible to buy ICEs as long as they are big and roomy?
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>> But I'm not going to waste real money on investing in something that will lose
>> most of its value within 5-10 years. I've always expected my cars to keep their
>> value and last indefinitely.
>>
Really? What kind of newish car car does that? I am considering buying my current Golf when it comes to the end of the lease, I expect to pay much less than half of its new value. I did the same with my previous BMW.
I always reckoned that the only cars which will not depreciate significantly are those which have reached the point where they are at their "base" value like my daughter's 18 year old Golf which has not depreciated at all since she inherited it from her grandmother 6 years ago.
I have never seen cars as an investment.
Last edited by: commerdriver on Tue 12 Sep 17 at 08:10
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>> >>
>> >>
>> Really? What kind of newish car car does that?
I've never bought a newish car. All my cars have been bought nearing the low point or beginning to appreciate as classics.
I don't buy a house expecting it to become worthless in 20 years. I buy something solid with a good service history.
But I'm really pleased that most people do want to keep pouring their money into supporting the motor industry for me. So please buy lots of EVs so that they can all depreciate quickly.
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>> " Range extended to 155 miles with optional 30kWh battery from September 2015"
>>
>> www.honestjohn.co.uk/carbycar/nissan/leaf-2010/
>>
That range (if believable in the real world) would get me as far as the lake District or half way to the north coast, I consider local running around to be less than a 100 mile round trip. Fortunately fossil fuels will see out my driving life.
Last edited by: Old Navy on Mon 11 Sep 17 at 16:43
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>> Fortunately fossil fuels will see out my driving life.
>>
I think thats true for many on here, including me. But it is interesting and for some of us it may kick in when we are driving locally and have given up on the long trips as a number of my elderly relatives did in their "declining" years.
And cutting CO2 / urban pollution etc benefits everyone, including our children and grandchildren as well as us.
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I called at Blyth services on the A1 earlier today; it was very busy, but I was surprised to see that its two 'Ecotricity' bays were empty.
Two though? That there would be one free when I needed it is not a chance I would willingly take.
Our second car could probably be substituted by an electric. It rarely does more than a 60 mile round trip so would only need charging at home.
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www.car4play.com/forum/post/index.htm?t=24406&m=539234&v=e
And with only two chargers, where does Leaf number three plug in? Does it get a parking company charge while waiting?
Last edited by: Old Navy on Mon 11 Sep 17 at 17:55
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It waits up to 30 mins until one Leafs.
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Is there a formal queueing system or is it a charging rage situation? There must be a proliferation of leafs during the autumn rush.
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Couple of LEAF owners spotted fighting here:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=rRTlStScolw
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Is Lycra compulsory insulation for EV drivers?
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I presume the Lycra is actually a stylish truss.
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A truss might be needed after pushing a discharged EV. :-)
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It will be a battle with Blue Badge Holders.
It appears that some of the BB spaces have been converted to charging points.
Apparently owners of EV's seem unable to walk:)
Pat
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Certainly not the case up here Pat.
Also not a fan of sticking EV points in prime parking spots - tucked halfway up the carpark or even at the back is fine with me - the same ignorami who park in BB spots without a badge do the same in charge points.
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(As I mentioned in another place) they often put the charging spaces near the doors or other prime positions largely because it's cheaper to get the cables to them, rather than digging up the car park and laying cables the size of pythons for two hundred yards.
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>> Apparently owners of EV's seem unable to walk:)
>>
>> Pat
>>
I suspect there is a conflict because the power supply for the chargers comes from the building the BB holders need to access. As always cost is paramount, it is cheaper to locate the charger near the power supply.
SNAP!
Last edited by: Old Navy on Mon 11 Sep 17 at 19:07
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>> I presume the Lycra is actually a stylish truss.
>>
.....the Energy Saving Truss.....?
(I'll get my anorak.....)
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I am uncomfortable with this supposed ban on the sales of ICE vehicles in as little as 15 years. Of course for Nicola Sturgeon it is simply points scoring. Though it actually all about carbon and how much carbon is consumed, electric/hybrid vehicles consume less carbon at the point of use though when you account for the manufacture, and include the batteries, it's a different story. We need a major breakthrough in battery technology, and all the while ICE vehicles are getting ever more efficient.
It's also about choice and in the same way as we can choose to cook by gas and electricity why should the legislators decide by which means we travel. Yes we need to become more efficient though it is often choice, market forces, that drive progress. And what better way for both ICE vehicles and electric vehicles, and perhaps other technologies, to become more efficient than for them to compete with each other.
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>>Though it actually all about carbon and how much carbon is consumed, electric/hybrid vehicles consume less carbon at the point of use though when you account for the manufacture, and include the batteries, it's the same story.
There. Fixed.
(since we don't use fossilised trees any more)
Last edited by: Lygonos on Mon 11 Sep 17 at 20:36
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>> I am uncomfortable with this supposed ban on the sales of ICE vehicles in as
>> little as 15 years. Of course for Nicola Sturgeon it is simply points scoring.
Whatever posturing NS is doing it's the Westminster govt who aspire (and I'll put it no higher than that) to abolish ICE bt 2040.
>> Though it actually all about carbon and how much carbon is consumed, electric/hybrid vehicles consume less
>> carbon at the point of use though when you account for the manufacture, and include
>> the batteries, it's a different story. We need a major breakthrough in battery technology, and
>> all the while ICE vehicles are getting ever more efficient.
It's not just carbon/CO2. NOx, Sulphur Oxides, particulates and multiple other nasties are also in the mix. Battery and motor technology is improving by leaps and bounds. So is renewable power with off-shore wind now cheaper than new nuclear.
>> It's also about choice and in the same way as we can choose to cook
>> by gas and electricity why should the legislators decide by which means we travel.
See above. Legislators have to weigh your freedom to choose against obligation on those in cities to breathe the resulting pollutants
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Mon 11 Sep 17 at 21:59
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The easy option; allow loads of talk about impending legislation scare people and drive demand down, then you don't need any legislation that will pass off the dedicated diesel owners but can still point to how successful you have been
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>> The threat of a clamp down on diesels is having an effect -
>>
>> www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/09/11/used-diesel-cars-have-lost-quarter-value-since-start-2017/
Funnily enough, well its not really, they are selectively only quoting prices for the older euro 4 diesels, those shortly to be banned, all of which will have starship miles on.
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Yep that survey is utter rubbish. Looking at cars in the £2-£4k range will always give unpredictable results due to other factors. And actually on their graphs Polo, Qashqai, Golf, Focus & Juke diesels have hardly changed. BMW diesel are shown as dropping a bit but they are so far above petrol models they've a long way to fall.
And then despite the weak survey the "industry expert" declares diesels are a white elephant now.
I hate surveys... and so called industry experts.
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www.nissan.co.uk/vehicles/new-vehicles/leaf-2018.html
235 miles range is much more practical.
My average commute it 200 miles (give or take) and a few times a month 350 miles.
Its getting there.
Unfortunately, by the time it does, electric cars will no longer be a low cost to run option as the Govt. will no doubt bring in road charging or similar to offset the cost of lost fuel duty.
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>> www.nissan.co.uk/vehicles/new-vehicles/leaf-2018.html
>>
>> 235 miles range is much more practical.
>>
>> Its getting there.
It would be if you had a cats chance in a snowball of getting anywhere near that figure. You don't. It will be nearer 150-180 at absolute tops on this version.
As I said unread, Nisaan (like almost everyone else bar Renault) just quote the test figures with no caveats.
Bigger battery version due "in about a year" is already announced, though, and that one should get over 200 miles happily enough.
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>>
>> Bigger battery version due "in about a year" is already announced, though, and that one
>> should get over 200 miles happily enough.
>>
Hmm, non upgradable EVs will surely plummet in value at some point.
OK, an older petrol car is not as economical as newer ones though it can be "recharged" in 3 mins 24 hours a day almost anywhere.
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>>Legislators have to weigh your freedom to choose against obligation on those in
>> cities to breathe the resulting pollutants
>>
My point is though that competition drives progress so legislating towards today's "cleaner at the point of use" technology is actually a negative step longer term.
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>>My point is though that competition drives progress so legislating towards today's "cleaner at the point of use" technology is actually a negative step longer term.
I expect it will shift the point at which competition begins.
If it is deemed a "zero-emission" vehicle is to be the norm, the competition then revolves around who can produce the most attractive ZE vehicle.
Similar arguments were trotted out about shifting from leaded to unleaded in the 80s, and the need for catalytic converters thereafter.
The need for stringent emissions tech meant electronic fuel injection became ubiquitous and delivered both increased power and cleaner petrol engines (at a cost - special car tax had to be dropped to prevent a big hike in car prices).
With diesels it has now passed the point of peak efficiency in the search for impossible emissions results and it is likely diesel engines in cars are going to die out.
Was sitting behind an MGB yesterday thinking "What a b***** stink - imagine if all cars has a carb and no cat"
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>> If it is deemed a "zero-emission" vehicle is to be the norm, the competition then
>> revolves around who can produce the most attractive ZE vehicle.
>>
That is totally ZE is the answer or if whole of life emissions, manufacture to use to scrap, are accounted for.
>> Similar arguments were trotted out about shifting from leaded to unleaded in the 80s, and
>> the need for catalytic converters thereafter.
>>
Yes and catalytic converters were legislated in (copying the US model) when many parties reckoned lean burn would have been a better route. Of course we have that now due to engine control improvements though still with a cat which has a carbon cost in manufacture, use and scrap. I am not advocating one or the other so no need for pro cat arguments, rather it perhaps shows that competing technologies might have been better than strict legislation.
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Yes I know it is the Mail
Electric cars could collapse the national grid 'unless energy giants can decide when and how they are charged'. This has all been parroted before but..
www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4882136/Electric-cars-collapse-national-grid.html
".........As a result, they want the introduction of technology that means they can turn car charging systems off when demand from homes and businesses is high.
In theory, this could mean that a family leaving the car on charge overnight ahead of a long journey could find the battery is unable to get them to their destination."
I am pleased I will still be able to brew a cuppa late in the evening before the street lights go out :-)
If this control is to be implemented should home charger units incorporate a read out of how many hours it has been permitted to charge ?
I remain a happy ICE user from Surrey.
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Supplier remote controlled smart meter anyone?
Last edited by: Old Navy on Thu 14 Sep 17 at 10:21
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Update -
I have had a little feedback from Mrs Eight week via Mrs ON.
Half the times I wanted to use it it was not fully charged so was range limited, you could see the battery draining going uphill, or when the heater and /or wipers were used. Any regeneration was minimal. Either it went or I did!
Apparently not a happy lady!
Last edited by: Old Navy on Mon 18 Sep 17 at 13:09
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Why was it not charged when they wanted to use it? Did they forget to put it on charge?
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No idea, i don't think they have a fast charger at home. Many people expect almost 100% availability of their cars rather than have their cars dictate it's availability. We certainly expect to use our car at any time to go anywhere we want.
Last edited by: Old Navy on Mon 18 Sep 17 at 13:31
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So an EV would be no good for you?
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>> So an EV would be no good for you?
>>
Not with the limited range, time to refuel, and charging infrastructure.
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That'll be a no then, you should have mentioned it before.
;-)
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And that's the point ON. You have to do a modicum of forward thinking to use an EV, and you need a charger at home.
For example.
- if the car is needed first thing then it gets charged straight away
- if it is needed after lunch - I use the excess solar to charge until then.
- depending on when and how much sun we even change the rate of charge
- if we are going on a longer trip in the i3 we check where the Ecotricity charge points are and plan ahead. Incidentally these have got a new better charging structure.
- in the PHEV we NEVER charge out - it is cheaper just to use petrol.
I think most people have got used to just getting in a car and going. With current EV technology and EV infrastructure this isn't possible. Heck even in a Tesla you have to plan a long journey around where the chargers are.
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Our car will be used for four or maybe five journeys today, ranging from 5 to 30 miles. Tomorrow it may be one of 100 miles, on Wednesday we might go to Blackpool, NO, forget that, but you get the idea. An EV is ok for predictable short runs, the station, or a short commute. Our use is unpredictable and can be long distance on a whim at short notice.
You lot really have trouble understanding car use, it changes when you retire! :-)
Last edited by: Old Navy on Mon 18 Sep 17 at 14:26
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Many people, even well-off pensioners dahn sarf, have more than one car so it can make sense for one to be the "long range" car and the other to be EV for local use only.
I can see that if you are only running one car then a pure EV won't work for many.
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It would be perfect as second car for us. However I'm not sure what the early zoes were like reliability wise, I've a bit of an aversion to french cars. I'd have a leaf though, although I don't know what they are pricewise. Although the main issue is charging, we've no real place for it. No driveway or garage. Plus the house isn't ours so it'd make getting a charger more of a faff.
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We moved to one car soon after retiring, we tended to use one car at a time. I had hoped to avoid the "IKEA run" but yesterday proved that a 6' long box will fit in a Jazz with room to spare at each end. No need to call on the four other cars in the family fleet, three diesel, one petrol, none battery powered. :-)
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Funnily enough, ON, I was wanting to go to town on the bus the other day, and I remember thinking how useless it would be trying to get a submarine down the high street.
I can only conclude they are utter rubbish, and as obviously nobody can ever need or have use for one in any circumstances, we can save a fortune in taxes.
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As you mentioned submarines, I was using hybrids before some here were running around in short trousers. Some do have wheels, but as you say, not a lot of use in the high street, :-)
This one among others, had wheels. Another cold war gadget!
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_submarine_NR-1
Last edited by: Old Navy on Mon 18 Sep 17 at 16:45
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Amazing that lasted until 2008. And the idea of frozen TV dinners and a bucket to bathe in once a week doesn't sound that wonderful.
Did they replace it with something similar? And where are the UFO bits it salvaged now?
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Wheely!?
I used to visit a business in Erith, some 2,200 yards from the Thames as the crow flies.
The place was a submarine factory in WW1. It must have been some job getting them down to the water when they were built!
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>> You lot really have trouble understanding car use, it changes when you retire! :-)
>>
When old age catches up with you and you are feeling a little nervous about driving outside you own patch and you only drive 50 mile a week an EV will be ideal.
It might not be far away..
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> You lot really have trouble understanding car use, it changes when you retire! :-)
>>
I don't know, that's not very typical of the retirees i know. Most cut back their mileage by quite a bit, or use the car four or five times a day. Yes more spontaneous days out but not so many that an EV is unworkable.
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I am world wide travel and big country trained, this is a little island. :-)
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I'm sure you are but most people pensioners or otherwise aren't ;-)
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Their problem not mine. When you have seen the wide open pristine areas of the world and the small areas of intense pollution it give you a different perspective on climate change and big business interests in the environment.
Last edited by: Old Navy on Mon 18 Sep 17 at 22:46
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Oh I'm sure it is, however they will still have a different outlook because of that ;-)
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>> Why was it not charged when they wanted to use it? Did they forget to
>> put it on charge?>>
The problem for many is that even if they don't do 200 mile plus round trips, they do get home, put it on charge and then, for instance, son phones and asks to be picked up from the station 15 miles away ...
"Sorry, not for a couple of hours son ..."
Last edited by: Hard Cheese on Tue 19 Sep 17 at 14:01
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>> The problem for many is that even if they don't do 200 mile plus round
>> trips, they do get home, put it on charge and then, for instance, son phones
>> and asks to be picked up from the station 15 miles away ...
>>
>> "Sorry, not for a couple of hours son ..."
>>
Exactly, the car dictating it's availability. I buy a car to use when I want, not when it lets me.
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How's today's weather back in the 1900s? :-)
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>> How's today's weather back in the 1900s? :-)
>>
You mean when we could fly to New York in 3 hrs?
EDIT: spellin
Last edited by: Hard Cheese on Tue 19 Sep 17 at 15:00
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Not heard of buses and taxis?
;-)
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They dictate their use as well., I would not buy one. :-)
Last edited by: Old Navy on Tue 19 Sep 17 at 15:06
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Yeah they can be a bit tricky to park.
Last edited by: sooty123 on Tue 19 Sep 17 at 15:08
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I use the park and ride for central Edinburgh, the bus is a big thing full of smelly people and has a huge diesel engine that pollutes more than my petrol put put car ever will but the parking is rubbish in the center. Once the FRB and QFC roads have been finished (not possible until the QFC was opened) buses will be quicker than cars for getting into Edinburgh.
Last edited by: Old Navy on Tue 19 Sep 17 at 15:19
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What about the trams ON?
Great service from the airport at least.
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The trams do not cross the river, there is a direct 24/7 bus service from the park and ride to both Edinburgh and Glasgow airports. Cars can be left at the P&R for extended periods having informed the staff. There are no parking charges at either P&R.
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Last time I took a tram from the airport to Edinburgh city centre it went a long way round (via Gyle I think) instead of straight along the A8 as the bus does. It then seemed to give way to everything possible in Princes Street.
Back to the bus next time.
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The Gyle is not a long way around, from there it follows the main rail route into Haymarket before it runs along Shandwick Place (traffic free) until it mixes with the buses and taxis on Princes Street. Would you really rather take a bus through Corstorphine?
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>>parking is rubbish in the center
10 minute walk from the National Gallery of Modern Art - plenty of parking and a £2 ticket for the whole day.
And a charge point to refuel your car too ;-)
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I've use the tram from the airport to station, that I forget the name of, where I changed onto a train to head further north over the Forth Bridge, good service.
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Haymarket for trains to the north.
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>> Haymarket for trains to the north.
>>
Didn't sound right, just Googled, Edinburgh Gateway, if you go to Haymarket you go in and then back out again.
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Correct, a new station built since I last used a train. :-)
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Yes it is a very modern station.
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The eight week Leaf. - R.P.
