I wonder how many car companies have info in their car handbooks about their accident data records? Skim reading the Skoda Superb manual (sad I know), I see it records 10s of data and saves it in an accident. Big brother for sure - have an accident and you switched off some driver aids and I wonder what insurance will say.
Note the Superb (MY2018) has the SOS type system that alerts emergency services automatically or by you pushing the SOS button near the rear view mirror.
The EDR records the accident in a short time (approximately 10 s), by showing the following information, for example:
â–¶ The function of certain vehicle systems,
â–¶ The driver and passenger seat belt status,
â–¶ The actuation of the brake and accelerator pedal,
â–¶ The speed of the vehicle at the time of the accident.
The recorded data helps with the analysis of how the vehicle systems were behaving shortly before, during and shortly after the accident, thereby ensuring better information regarding the circumstances under which the accident occurred, which lead to material damage and possibly to personal injury.
The data relating to assist systems in the vehicle is then also recorded. In addition to the information on whether the affected systems were switched on or off at the relevant time, whether these were only partially available or were in-active, there is also the possibility of tracking whether these vehicle functions controlled, accelerated or braked the vehicle during the accident. Depending on the vehicle equipment, these functions may include, for example:
â–¶ Adaptive Cruise Control (ACC)
â–¶ Lane Assist
â–¶ Park Assist
â–¶ Parking aid
â–¶ Emergency brake function (Front Assist)
EDR data is only recorded if an accident causes the restraint systems to be activated. Under normal driving conditions there is no data recording and there is no audio or video recording of the vehicle interior or the vehicle environment. Personal data such as name, gender, age or place where the accident occurred is also not stored in the EDR. However, third parties such as law enforcement authorities may use certain resources to connect EDR content to other data sources, and therefore deduce the identification of some of the people involved in the accident when investigating the causes of the accident.
Last edited by: rtj70 on Mon 28 Aug 17 at 21:20
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Not checked the BMW's system. Aren't such systems becoming mandatory across Europe ?
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I think they are. Not sure Skoda had to fit to the Superb MY2018 because it's a refresh and not a new car. But they have done so.
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>> Not checked the BMW's system.>>
Mine has the SOS system/button and I understand that it transmits accident details though exactly what I'm not sure.
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The Superb apparently transmits location, severity of accident and the number of passengers wearing a seatbelt.
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Probably much the same. Makes sense in two respects, 1/ it provides an alert and 2/ the data cannot be destroyed bt fire or water etc.
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>> The Superb apparently transmits location, severity of accident and the number of passengers wearing a
>> seatbelt.
>
to whom, where and how.
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You can also speak to someone so it must have a SIM/mobile phone connection as standard. No idea if it sends to Skoda first or what. Don't intend using it. :-)
But if you want to use mobile data for online services you either need to setup a mobile hotspot or buy the upgraded system with a SIM slot and either insert a SIM or use rSAP profile.
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The BMW has a SIM, it also transmits service data to BMW and onwards to your dealer of choice.
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>> The BMW has a SIM, it also transmits service data to BMW and onwards to
>> your dealer of choice.
>>
As well as transmitting service data it receives updated NAV mapping, and is also what lets the car receive NAV destinations sent to from your phone or laptop. All of the connected drive services use the built in SIM as far as I can tell. Though, I only use the email one and the weather!
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The BMW system uses the SIM card built in to the car and sends data to a BMW call centre. They'll contact the emergency services. It happens automatically if an airbag goes off, otherwise it can be manually activated using the button by the rear view mirror. My E61 5 series with the first car I had with the system and, fortunately, I've never needed it it any car!
www.bmw.co.uk/en_GB/topics/ownership/connecteddrive/digital-services/ecall.html
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In the Superb, the updates to map data occurs either via WiFi or using the upgraded system which you either insert a SIM card into or use rSAP profile. So the standard car has a SIM/mobile connection but it's not used for the connected services.
Although I do think as standard you can check vehicle condition and location using their app.
I'll find out in a few months I guess.
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You have all answered the how, but not the who and where. So far its just sales blurb.
BMW? VAG? or a callcentre? run by whom? where? what country?
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PeterS says a BMW call centre above, no idea re Skoda et al ...
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...but the definition of a "BMW Call Centre" (as in their Ts&Cs) is anyone, anywhere they wish to contract to provide the service (as may vary from time-to-time).
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Don't care as long as it does what it says on the tin if needed ...
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>> Don't care
>> ...
You might do when the stuff may be used to prosecute you, or sue you, or be sold to ambulance chasers........
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I've had the SOS button on my last two cars. I also have concierge services on the current one i.e. you can call them up via the on screen menus and ask them e.g where the nearest chip shop is.
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>> You might do when the stuff may be used to prosecute you, or sue you,
>> or be sold to ambulance chasers........
>>
The contract is with BMW ...
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>> And that means what?
>>
They can't sell on etc without agreement, just like your BB and mobile provider can't.
There's more to worry about GPS satnav data, hello Mr Plod, Mr Z's green 540i only took 30 secs to do a mile on the A3 today ...
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>> There's more to worry about GPS satnav data, hello Mr Plod, Mr Z's green 540i
>> only took 30 secs to do a mile on the A3 today ...
And who has that data, as far as I can tell it could some back street call centre in Mumbai,
Last edited by: VxFan on Wed 30 Aug 17 at 02:09
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If you're driving you're BMW on the sub-continent then possibly.
BMW have a customer call centre in the UK, Farnborough I think, it could be there, or it could be subcontracted to a specialist who also handle if for others, I don't know. It's quite reassuring though.
I do know that the service data is definitely transmitted to BMW, could be UK though quite possibly Munich, before being sent onto your dealer, you can change you preferred dealer via an online form IIRC.
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I was reading thru Toyota's users manual. It says car stores some information which could be released to law enforcement authority if they demand. Under all other cases, it won't be released without your consent.
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That a shed load of dynamic and control data is now captured by modern cars is beyond dispute. Whats at question is how much of this information is transmitted, to where, by whom, stored or not, secure or not, available to whom under what circumstances.
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I would like to know how accurate the data is, after all, VW could not even get their emissions software correct and how can the data be checked, i.e. what is the chain of custody from car to data centre to police etc?
I know my 2017 car's systems gets confused when I drive on non-mapped roads. The system changes to record my speed as equivalent kilometres per hour rather than miles per hour so if I am in a 50 speed limit zone it will record 80. With errors like that who knows what else is wrong!
I have opted out of the company car scheme but they don't allow tracking / emergency call type systems to be activated in cars. I suspect the true reason is down to subscription costs but there is also the issue that some car companies have banks (e.g. GM) and they could effectively track where our clients are.
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~>>VW could not even get their emissions software correct
Rather the contrary, VW had their emissions software *exactly* as they wanted it, that just didn't coincide with how it perhaps should have been.
Their emissions 'con' was ingenious, so I'd take that as a confirmation of their technical ability, though perhaps not their morality.
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Ok, what I should have said is, as their morals are in the gutter, how do we know that the software that records these events isn't corrupted to favour the State?
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>> Their emissions 'con' was ingenious, so I'd take that as a confirmation of their technical
>> ability, though perhaps not their morality.
>>
I agree in part though other manufacturers achieved as good or better CO2 and as good or better performance without resorting to a cheat device so are they therefore even cleverer as well as having better morals?
They just haven't been caught you might say though BMW for one have put out a very strong statement to that effect.
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there is no doubt they all cheat, easily demonstrated by the fact none of them achieve stated MPG. As far as emissions go, VAG were for some reason reluctant to go the adblue route, so resorted to cheating on an epic scale.
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>>VAG were for some reason reluctant to go the adblue route, so resorted to cheating on an epic scale.
££££££££££££
Ad-blue tank, fixings, tubes, connectors, valves, pumps etc. Must cost a few hundred to fit the system to cars. It is much cheaper to write a piece of software!
Anecdotally, mates who are driving MB diesel saloons are reporting 60MPG plus from tank to tank refills.
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Whilst I do not doubt that they all write the software to achieve results that confirm compliance aka' cheating', I am not sure that this is "demonstrated by the fact none of them achieve stated MPG".. That probably has more to do with the failure of the test specification to be representative of real life conditions.
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there is no doubt that the testing process is completely rubbish in design and application.
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Surely though if the parameters are the same for all makers then the tests are at least useful for comparison purposes?
I mean, who really believes marketing blurb anyway? (Obviously some here do...!!)
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>> I mean, who really believes marketing blurb anyway? (Obviously some here do...!!)
We all know its all cobblers, but its the principal of the thing. Goes towards mindset. Imagine the board at VAG
"vell ve haf gemfluxed das folk mit das dumkopf konzumption testings"
"Vas kan vier do mit das emizions testinks Ja?"
Last edited by: Zero on Tue 29 Aug 17 at 17:47
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>> there is no doubt they all cheat, easily demonstrated by the fact none of them achieve stated MPG. >>
Think about, that's not a clever statement, they are not driven daily around the test route so will never reach their stated MPG in real life. It's the testing system that's wrong.
The following is BMW's perspective, pretty unequivocal:
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Munich. Due to current media reports, the BMW Group considers it has become necessary to make its position regarding recent allegations clear.
As a matter of principle: BMW Group vehicles are not manipulated and comply with respective legal requirements. Of course this also applies to diesel vehicles. Confirmation of this is provided by the results of relevant official investigations at the national and international level.
The BMW Group categorically rejects accusations that Euro 6 diesel vehicles sold by the company do not provide adequate exhaust gas treatment due to AdBlue tanks that are too small.
Technology employed by the BMW Group is clearly differentiated from other systems in the market. We compete to provide the best exhaust treatment systems: unlike other manufacturers, BMW Group diesel vehicles employ a combination of various components to treat exhaust emissions. Vehicles which use urea injection with AdBlue (SCR) to treat exhaust emissions also employ a NOx-storage catalytic converter. With this combination of technologies, we fulfil all legal emissions requirements and also achieve a very good real-life emissions performance. This means there is no need to recall or upgrade the software of BMW Group Euro 6 diesel passenger cars.
In addition, the combination of both systems, together with exhaust-gas recirculation, requires a lower level of AdBlue injection and leads to a very low AdBlue consumption in comparison to other manufacturers. This enables an optimized tank size while also achieving very low emissions in real-driving conditions. Furthermore, BMW Group diesel vehicles have a simple refill solution through the tank lid or engine hood, depending on the model. BMW Group customers are informed by the vehicle in good time and repeatedly concerning a low AdBlue fill level. If this is ignored, the vehicle eventually prevents operation.
From a BMW Group perspective, the objective of discussions with other manufacturers concerning AdBlue tanks was the installation of the required tanking infrastructure in Europe.
In addition, the BMW Group confirms its commitment to conduct a voluntary software upgrade of suitable Euro 5 diesel passenger cars at no cost to customers. This upgrade incorporates knowledge gained in the field over the last years to realize further improvements in emissions. We deem this to be a part of a comprehensive and joint plan of measures involving municipalities and the industry, to further improve inner-city air quality without across-the-board driving bans, within the context of the “Diesel Summit†on 2 August 2017.
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Seen it, still cobblers. Mealy mouthed meaningless words.
Last edited by: Zero on Tue 29 Aug 17 at 18:33
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>> >> there is no doubt they all cheat, easily demonstrated by the fact none of
>> them achieve stated MPG. >>
>>
>> Think about, that's not a clever statement, they are not driven daily around the test
>> route so will never reach their stated MPG in real life. It's the testing system
>> that's wrong.
Think about it, do you seriously believe that they do not set the cars up to deliver the best under the very limited test criteria? Do you seriously believe this may not be at the expense of real world driving?
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Naturally they will be set up to perform well under the test circumstances though that is not cheating, in other words it's not the manufacturer's fault that the statutory test is so carp.
And it because the test is carp and does not replicate real world driving that cars, however they are set up, will not replicate test figures in real world driving.
All that being said the fact that a 2.0ltr 150 ish BHP / 350 ish NM diesel has gone from around 150 g/km to around 100g/km in 10 or 12 years is pretty good progress.
And the 2015 M135i at 175g/km is the same CO2 as the 2005 120i despite being 1.5 x the capacity and well over twice the power. OK it's not quite as economical in real life though it's not far of it.
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For comparison purposes, if they all do similar then you should be able to compare one car to the next. On the test, they can take practically forever to accelerate to a given speed (and it's not motorway speeds in the test) and they can tape up gaps in the bodywork* to aid aerodynamics. And disconnect systems after the car has been started.
* But it's all done on a rolling road with the air resistance factored in somehow but the car isn't actually moving. So not sure if it helps.
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BMWs are typically very clean on the CO/HC MoT emissions test, for what that's worth. So much so, according to my tester, that the machine sometimes doesn't recognise that the probe is in the exhaust pipe.
The main problem with the economy tests is that the accelerations used are glacial, and totally unrealistic. Add to that the over inflated tyres, aircon off, all consumers off, brake pads pushed away from discs, lack of hills in the simulation, and you get 20% optimism.
I have no doubt either that some manufacturers choose gears ratios with the test in mind.
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>> All that being said the fact that a 2.0ltr 150 ish BHP / 350 ish
>> NM diesel has gone from around 150 g/km to around 100g/km in 10 or 12
>> years is pretty good progress.
Has it? all you can say its been engineered to pass a certain un worldly test at that reading.
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It seems a lot of buyers are turning their backs on diesels.
When I test drove the Passat GTE, I said to the VW dealer's employee that dealt with me that give it a few months and VW UK will offer the Passat with petrol engines apart from the GTE hybrid. He surprised me a little when he said they already did - I told him no they didn't offer them in the UK. He went off saying he'd check.
I dropped the car off 3 days later and he agreed that I was right they didn't. I pointed out Audi had started offering more petrol A4 models.
And a few months later... Passat's in the UK can be ordered with 1.4, 1.8 and 2.0 petrol turbo units :-)
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No cos the real world consumption has improved too.
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Accident/Event Data Recorders - R.P.
