New roundabouts take time for locals & others to find their way around.
Near me is Junction 6 on the M9 - it has been there for 50+ years - it was 2 broad lanes right round BUT with the advent of a new Asda mammoth warehouse they decided to spent £500k on realigning some of the junctions & the roundabout from 2 lanes to 3.....masses of new signs, white lines, arrows on tarmac, traffic lights(where there were none).
It is some 5 years & any locals will drive a few miles extra to avoid the roundabout even @ off-peak times. They did spend on more signs /white lines within a year but I am sure it created just more confusion - roads are all similar numbers with (North/South) rather than local names, industrial sites. street names.
My son was hit there, new car only some 2,000 miles, when the girl in the lane next to him moved off when the lights changed - she changed lane at the same time as moving off as she was in the wrong lane & she wanted to be in the correct lane on the roundabout!!
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ON, what about the end of the M8 at Hermiston Gait?
I reckon there are at least 5 accidents a week there with cars just not realising that it comes to an end at traffic lights?
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>> ON, what about the end of the M8 at Hermiston Gait?
>> I reckon there are at least 5 accidents a week there with cars just not
>> realising that it comes to an end at traffic lights?
>>
I once came close to provoking the ABS into action there! My normal practice is to have my foot on the brake pedal if the vehicle in front has its brake lights on or if I can see brake lights on in the near distance.
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>>
>> The roundabout on a 70mph dual carriageway in Derbyshire only opened at the weekend and
>> already been the cause of several accidents (10 so far).
I don't think so.
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>> I don't think so.
Don't shoot the messenger. I'm only going on what the reports say.
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Guess the police attended as it seems like shooting fish in a barrel for driving without due care tickets... :-)
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Kind makes me theorise that some drivers are on a sort of autopilot on known routes. Just bimbling along dealing with what they think should be there, rather than properly looking at what is actually there. Quite possibly the same types that put petrol in their diesel cars or vice versa, just seeing what they want to see and not checking.
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It is perfectly possible that a badly (or unconventionally) laid out hazard will confuse competent drivers, especially at night. Reading the story and the comments, it seems to have caught out a number of non-locals who are presumably not in the habit of driving straight over roundabouts
It's on a NSL dual carriageway. Clearly the crashers were travelling too fast when they arrived at it, but why? It probably needs better signage and lighting.
To dismiss the layout etc as a factor when three people crash in the space of a few minutes, and the roundabout is littered with damaged cars, seems premature.
I predict that the responsible authority will deny there is anything wrong, say it was designed in accordance with best practice, and then fix it.
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A ramp in the middle and a few deckchairs nearby would be nice.
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I think "the magic roundabout of Swindon and Hemel Hempstead must be amongst the worst , when there's an accident it's chaos, if there isn't they do tend to run fairly smoothly .
There's a roundabout in Weybridge Surrey, coming down past the old British aerospace factory , where by car turning left towards,the A3 is always congested, and those who turn right, towards Byfleet , they have to filter INTO those coming up a slip road, giving way. That's is not sensible, because it goes against everything in the Highway Code.......give way to the right. It's okish in a car, but in a van, truck or Lorry, there's a massive blind spot.
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>> I think "the magic roundabout of Swindon and Hemel Hempstead must be amongst the worst
>> , when there's an accident it's chaos, if there isn't they do tend to run
>> fairly smoothly .
I hate the HH one, but it does work and the big difference is that it the roads feeding it are all 30mph limited, not 70. Any accidents there are probably (I've never seen one and I worked a mile up the road for 14 years) lane changing nudges.
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>> I hate the HH one, but it does work and the big difference is that it the roads feeding it are all 30mph limited, not 70.
That is the key. First time I encountered that one, I was utterly confused. However, due to being in 30 MPH limit, the confusion often causes some impatient honking rather than crash.
>> some drivers are on a sort of autopilot on known routes.
That's just human nature. A good road planner should be aware of this and provide appropriate signage.
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When a new area of housing was built near me some roads were built long before the houses. Half road width traffic calming was part of the spec but the street lights came later. After a few cars destroyed their suspension and claimed compensation from the council the calming was removed. The main problem was the first car flattened the signs on the calming (concrete curb) and subsequent drivers did not see it, no signs so big claims!
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>> >> I don't think so.
>>
>> Don't shoot the messenger. I'm only going on what the reports say.
>>
You didn't put it in quotes.
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>> >> You didn't put it in quotes.
>>
>> That's because I didn't copy it word for word.
>>
>> I'm not sure if you're questioning whether 10 cars had accidents over a couple of
>> days or not?
I am questioning, nay asserting, that inanimate objects like roundabouts don't cause accidents.
People cause accidents. Not roundabouts.
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I am surprised by the negative comment about Swindon's Magic Roundabout. I have driven through it several thousand times and can't recall ever seeing an accident and seldom much of a queue even at rush hour. Part of the ingenuity is that if an accident were to block one of the routes through it then there is always at least one alternative.
I think part of its success is related to its odd design. It's pretty much impossible to take it at speed so traffic blends well at relatively slow speeds resulting in a smooth transit across the complex. Also my guess is it's almost all local traffic so most people know where they are going. I do agree it's potentially daunting first time but that's the case with many conventional roundabouts too where for example lane guidance often changes arbitrarily necessitating another loop round and if you get caught in the wrong lane
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>> People cause accidents. Not roundabouts.
That will be the people who designed or constructed the roundabout then.
All drivers can be caught out, more or less. Even the blessed Humph must have had a fright once upon a time, even though he has never hit anything.
If 10 drivers can leave the road in a few days then it's simply a matter of looking for the common factor.
It's a significant factor that it is a road intended to carry traffic at 70mph. I wonder if all the usual signs were actually in place.
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>> That will be the people who designed or constructed the roundabout then.
Agreed.
>> I wonder if all the usual signs were actually in place.
Apparently not.
"The local council has been forced to take action after several crashed cars were abandoned at the site amid claims of poor lighting and a lack of adequate signage."
"“I am not familiar with the area but there was no lighting and no signage and I just drove straight into the roundabout and bumbled over it until we came to a stop"
“There need to be rumble strips warning you it is there, the lighting needs to be better and so does the signage.â€
"These accidents are not driver error but the result of a poorly designed, unlit roundabout on a 70mph dual carriageway."
Granted, it appears that the first car to crash knocked down some or all of the warning signs at the roundabout, but from all accounts the roundabout isn't even clearly identified further back down the road.
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What gets me is one of these quotes:
“I am not familiar with the area but there was no lighting and no signage and I just drove straight into the roundabout and bumbled over it until we came to a stop."
Well, I think he was the knob for driving over the roundabout. People who are not familiar with the area follow the signs and drive around the roundabout. People who are familiar with the area are caught out by the unexpected.
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Thing is BBD, you don't expect a roundabout to suddenly jump out in front of you while travelling at 70 mph. Normally there are signs to indicate a roundabout ahead. Also, prior to and after the roundabout the road was lit, but around the area of the roundabout it wasn't.
Last edited by: VxFan on Wed 2 Aug 17 at 13:00
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"claims of poor lighting and a lack of adequate signage"
So signs and lighting...
I can see about 4 big lamp posts going back in the distance. I'll bet there was adequate signage, after all.
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Lack of observation. Apart from street lighting either side, even if no warning sign for roundabout as such there would presumably be roadworks signs etc.
Far too many people drive with a fixed focus two or three car lengths ahead.
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... and presumably most other drivers managed to negotiate it safely... :-)
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>> Thing is BBD, you don't expect a roundabout to suddenly jump out in front of
>> you while travelling at 70 mph.
Thing is VxFan, they don't.
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>> Thing is VxFan, they don't.
Well this one did according to the 10 drivers who didn't see it.
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>>
>>
>> Well this one did according to the 10 drivers who didn't see it.
>>
So ten drivers who were not paying sufficient attention over the period of a couple of days. Probably the ten with the worst history off accidents and near misses, I'd wager.
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>> >> Thing is VxFan, they don't.
>>
>> Well this one did according to the 10 drivers who didn't see it.
>>
You really don't get it, do you?
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If we were all infallible super observant drivers like you Duncan there would be no need for road signs warning us of hazards. No need for street lighting come to that.
Unfortunately people are not infallible. They can be distracted, tired, or not concentrating so best to give them all the visual help possible.
In this case it looks like a little more assistance might be useful
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>> Unfortunately people are not infallible. They can be distracted, tired, or not concentrating so best
>> to give them all the visual help possible.
>>
>> In this case it looks like a little more assistance might be useful
I wouldn't dispute that.
However, it is the first duty of a driver to drive a such a speed that they can stop within the distance to be clear.
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>> However, it is the first duty of a driver to drive a such a speed
>> that they can stop within the distance [he can see] to be clear.
That doesn't help if one perceives it to be clear. And in a sense, it was until it turned into a car park.
Very few do that (maintain an ability to stop in the distance they can see to be clear) so literally at night, to be honest I'm not sure I do and I haven't crashed on my own since about 1976 when I hit a load of mud laid by builder's lorries. That certainly wasn't visible from any useful distance.
At night here is a degree of trust and confidence especially on dipped headlamps that one will pick up the kerb/verge ahead, that the road is not going to turn through 90 degrees unannounced, and that if there is an obstruction in the road it would be visible. It's also quite difficult to judge what is the distance in which one can react and stop.
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>>At night here is a degree of trust and confidence especially on dipped headlamps that one will pick <<
Yes, at 03.10 Ian picked up 'something' in his headlights in his lorry that looked odd.
It turned out to be a cyclist in a high Viz jackets but with no light whatsoever on the main A47 just before Peterborough.
Had he have hit him and killed him, it would have been deemed to be his fault and he would have been arrested on the spot.
Pat
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>> However, it is the first duty of a driver to drive a such a speed
>> that they can stop within the distance to be clear.
No-one, not even you, drives to the speed they can "see" in their dipped headlights. If they did max speed at night on the motorway would be about 30 mph.
So the government in their wisdom mandates aids to help us. Rear lights and reflectors on cars busses and lorries for example, reflective road signs and road markings, cats eyes, etc etc.
Now stick an unlit unmarked visually unaided dark mound, in the middle of an unlit dual carriageway with a 60mph speed limit and you are going to get trouble.
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>> Now stick an unlit unmarked visually unaided dark mound, in the middle of an unlit
>> dual carriageway with a 60mph speed limit and you are going to get trouble.
Presackly. I'm not even sure it was a mound, from the pictures.
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>>
>> No-one, not even you, drives to the speed they can "see" in their dipped headlights.
>> If they did max speed at night on the motorway would be about 30 mph.
>>
That's the nub of the "drive within the distance you can see to be clear" argument at night.
Does anyone brake hard every time they dip their headlights? Of course not.
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It can be very tricky at night in flat, featureless terrain where there is very little to show in the headlamps. The roundabout itself is flat, and if the road has been redesigned either side of the roundabout there may be little vegetation to delineate the route. In those circs it can be difficult to see where the road goes. Road markings on an unlit section at night, especially in the wet, might as well not be there.
I have never given a lot of thought to how I pick up roundabouts on such roads, but as I usually lift off about a third of a mile off, before the usual countdown markers and sometimes before the roundabout is visible, the signs clearly play a big part.
I wonder if the 'roundabout 500m' 'reduce speed now', direction signs, and countdown markers were all actually present. If not then I'm not surprised some people were suckered on a 70mph road.
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Something I learned quickly as we all got satnavs, was to keep an eye on them in dense fog.
They give a good warning of roundabouts and road junctions when the visibility is bad.
Pat
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>> Something I learned quickly as we all got satnavs, was to keep an eye on
>> them in dense fog.
>>
>> They give a good warning of roundabouts and road junctions when the visibility is bad.
But, they wouldn't show brand new roundabouts, unless the satnav had just been updated.
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I didn't say they would Duncan....I offered it as a tip for others caught out in thick fog on a dark and dank early morning.
It's one worth remembering if it happens to you.......you can thank me then.
Pat
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Going south on the A3 to Portsmouth there is really only one roundabout to negotiate between Wandswoth and Portsmouth, ignoring the one a Robin Hood Gate / Richmond Park where you just slip by it.
The roundabout is where the B3006 crosses the A3 Liphook - Petersfield bypass.
I think this is possibly the best example of reminding drivers of a roundabout ahead.
Road markings on approach, change of road colouring etc.
I suggest all these markings have been introduced as driver loose concentration and need jolting to the hazard ahead.
tinyurl.com/y9aacuyn
Any other approaches to roundabouts marked to this extreme ?
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>> You really don't get it, do you?
Neither do you, but then I guess you're the perfect driver who'd quite happily drive around with no road signs whatsoever indicating what's ahead of him and never have an accident - not.
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It's pretty clear to me.
If there is a perfectly good stretch of dual carriageway and then a roundabout is put in it, and it is not well signed and lit, then some first time users may be caught out though it will be occasional users who will be most affected, those who are familiar with the road though not those who use it daily or weekly who will have seen the roundabout being installed.
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A standard responce these days, "It wasne me, it was anyone I can pin the blame on". It was no one's fault except the drivers involved. Rule one of driving, maintain observation. God help any cyclists round a blind bend with the apologists driving.
Last edited by: Old Navy on Wed 2 Aug 17 at 21:50
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Don't be ridiculous ON.
Nobody is saying the drivers who crashed were blameless, but if 10 in 48 hours is true then they were very likely to have been dealing with a more than averagely difficult hazard, which becomes a contributing factor.
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>> Rule one of driving,
>> maintain observation.
>>
Just like ships really. You never hear of submarines running into things.
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Just like ships really. You never hear of submarines running into things.
>>
With the odd exception of course ;)
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Portwood in Stockport can be a bummer for non locals. I think there are thirteen entry and exit points. You have to aim for the lane you want on entering...it's marked on the tarmac but keeps changing and is hidden most of the time under traffic.
The lanes may be marked on overhead gantries but I've never had the time or the bottle to raise my eyes from the goings-on in front of me !
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>>
>> Portwood in Stockport can be a bummer
>>
I don't know what you Northern girls would do if you tried Hatton Cross roundabout!
tinyurl.com/yd8xmh3w
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>> I don't know what you Northern girls would do if you tried Hatton Cross roundabout!
All of the good challenging ones are down south.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magic_Roundabout_(Hemel_Hempstead)
Edit, Hatton Cross is easy, there is a technique. Pick your exit, drive straight for it, give way to no one. Everyone is so confused about who has right of way, they just let you through. If you need tips on how its done, follow a DHL driver for the first few times.
Last edited by: VxFan on Fri 4 Aug 17 at 10:32
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Hatton Cross is easy, there is a technique
Been there, done that thousands of times and I tend to agree but there is one regular hazard.
Quite a few drivers going east on the A30 and want to turn right towards Feltham, filter left into the airport and then at the first roundabout do a rapid U turn ready to exit the airport and straight ahead for Feltham.
Lemmings coming off the peri track from delivering or collecting folks to from terminals 2 & 3 in central area often get a fright.
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"All of the good challenging ones are down south."
Yes, the good old "Magic Roundabout" in HH. (aka the Plough Roundabout, the name commemorating a pub which stood nearby) - just down the road from me. It puts the frighteners on many drivers, but I'm convinced dealing with it is all a matter of mind-set.
First, understand that this is a two-way road in the form of a circle, with a mini-roundabout at each of the five junctions.
Next, remember to take the appropriate lane for the mini-roundabouts as you reach them; use the right-hand lane only if you intend to turn right. Sometimes there are three lanes as you approach and you need to watch the road markings.
Nearly all the problems come down to two things: one, dithering; two, trying to follow the vehicle in front closely without first checking you have right of way. Fortunately speeds are slow and most collisions involve smashed lights and small dents.
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FP, I'm glad I'm not the only one who knows HH 'magic' roundabout by it's proper name :-)
I was living in Bovingdon when i learnt to drive, and so often had to drive round The Plough. Piece of cake!
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>> Just like ships really. You never hear of submarines running into things.
HMS Astute ran into the Isle of Sky.
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>>
>> HMS Astute ran into the Isle of Sky.
>>
...is that because they were looking out for the Isle of Skye.........
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Either way, its hard to miss
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Not sure how I ended up there, roundabout confusion? But this thread is worth reading, if only for the Americans inabilty to cope!
www.airliners.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1138437
I t also introduced me to the terms of donut, rotary and circle, all = roundabout.
Last edited by: sherlock47 on Fri 4 Aug 17 at 10:09
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Is this Britain's worst roundabout? - Falkirk Bairn
