***** This thread is now closed, please CLICK HERE to go to Volume 3 *****
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As predicted by ON yesterday...
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-40723581
(ICE = Internal Combustion Engines)
Last edited by: VxFan on Wed 5 Feb 20 at 10:35
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Thanks, I only saw a brief pre announcement statement last night. By 2040 I will either be pushing up daisies or if still mentally able wishing I was. :-)
Last edited by: Old Navy on Wed 26 Jul 17 at 16:27
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By 2040, I shall be pushing up the daisies, or my family will wish I was.
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Copied from Sky news-
Britain's National Grid will also need modifying to deal with millions of electric vehicles charging overnight.
Demand could be as much as 8 gigawatts higher by 2030 - about the capacity of new nuclear power plant Hinkley Point C.
Inventing the electric car was the easy part. Reshaping our entire country's motor infrastructure around it will be much harder.
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Need an incentive to charge overnight when grid usage is low. Like Economy 7 or whatever it was. Then the grid might have a better chance of coping. (Aren't some of the suppliers giving cheaper electricity at the weekend, and giving incentives to companies to shift their power usage?)
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>> Need an incentive to charge overnight when grid usage is low. Like Economy 7 or
>> whatever it was.
It's still available, we're on that tariff. Most leccy companies still offer it, I think 15% of houses are still on it.
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If everyone is on smart meters. there is no need for a special meter.
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When we went onto it (a few years ago) we didn't have to have a special meter fitted.
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I can't have a smart meter yet, BG have yet to come up with one which works with solar panels.
I think a "proper" one measures input and output. Other power companies have installed ones which just measure input so I'm sure BG could do that, but they won't, guess they don't want to have to revisit once they get the technology right.
But I digress...
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>>Demand could be as much as 8 gigawatts higher by 2030
My fagpacket calculations assuming 10 million EVs charging overnight would, on average, need about 10GW of power for 10hours assuming the cars are travelling 10,000miles pa.
Oddly enough 10GW is the difference between peak demand during the day and trough demand at night.
If the govt can justify HS2 and Heathrow3, I think an upgrade to the grid is not beyond human ability.
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Surprisingly, to date despite the rising number of EV's the total power consumption of the UK is falling.
With wind power generating all the time, even when you dont need it, i.e. off peak, it means that all these EV's could be charged off peak without an increase in daily peak supply being required.
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>>Surprisingly, to date despite the rising number of EV's the total power consumption of the UK is falling
Presumably a fair chunk is the transition from heating tungsten filaments for light, to using LEDs (which I find are now a far more acceptable substitute to those gash fluorescent tube efforts of a few years ago).
Also pretty much all solar power, and a fair bit of wind generated electricity (mainly smaller turbines) is unmetered meaning that it shows up as a reduction in demand rather than and increase in production.
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>> Presumably a fair chunk is the transition from heating tungsten filaments for light, to using
>> LEDs (which I find are now a far more acceptable substitute to those gash fluorescent
>> tube efforts of a few years ago).
Lots of factors, a less high energy economy, electrical efficiency of industrial and domestic appliances is improving all the time (Old tele's with tubes used far more power), stuff like that.
Last edited by: Zero on Wed 26 Jul 17 at 18:11
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>>
>> If the govt can justify HS2 and Heathrow3, I think an upgrade to the grid
>> is not beyond human ability.
>>
.....well, anywhere near London, at least...........
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>> >> If the govt can justify HS2 and Heathrow3, I think an upgrade to the
>> grid
>> >> is not beyond human ability.
>> .....well, anywhere near London, at least...........
Its no coincidence that HS2 stops before it gets to the real north. Don't want them all coming south now, do we.
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>> If the govt can justify HS2 and Heathrow3, I think an upgrade to the grid
>> is not beyond human ability.
>>
Trouble is upgrading the grid is a far more difficult;t project than even HS2 if you think of all the transformers and connectivity that has to be upgraded all over the network.
It's not impossible but it would / will be costly and time consuming with the possibility that you will end up with a broadband type situation where some areas may not be able to get sufficient extra capacity at the right time.
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>> >>Demand could be as much as 8 gigawatts higher by 2030
>>
>> My fagpacket calculations assuming 10 million EVs charging overnight would, on average, need about 10GW
>> of power for 10hours assuming the cars are travelling 10,000miles pa.
Just done a similar calculation and I think that's about right.
Despite plans for fast charging, I think most charging will have to take place at lower rates overnight or while parked during the day. The peaks that would resulting from large numbers of people plugging in to 100kW+ chargers at the same times would be a lot worse than 10 million kettles when the ten o'clock news comes on.
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>> By 2040, I shall be pushing up the daisies........
.....goody, only 3½ hours to go......
;-)
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>> .....goody, only 3½ hours to go......
2040, not 20:40! Its too dark by then for gardening.
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Ok for dogging though Seddo?
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It feels good for once to be of an age where one doesn't have to worry about all this claptrap.
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Oh i don't know i think it's quite exciting, we're on the cusp of a big change I think. What a time to be alive etc ;-)
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Can't say I really care what fuel my car needs to use, or what technology is required under the bonnet. But I absolutely do want to be able to use it when I want, and for as long as I want, without unreasonable delays. So if it becomes possible to buy an alternative fuel car which meets the emissions requirements of the future, but which is also as convenient to use and as easy and quick to refuel as a current petrol or diesel one, then bring it on.
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and as easy and
>> quick to refuel as a current petrol or diesel one, then bring it on.
>>
I doubt it, we'll probably all have to adjust our expectations of personal transport. But how knows what technology will bring in the next 20 odd years.
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2000 miles so far in past 10 weeks.
Have paid hee-haw for the leccy as I have only used public chargers, but even if I paid full-whack at home that would cost £80 vs £300 for the Kizashi (or around £40 for overnight cheap electrons should one have a 'white meter')
Also have found a few places in Edinburgh where I can charge and park for free rather getting shafted by a parking meter during the week.
Obviously it's in my interest for EV uptake to be as slow and drawn-out as possible.
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Who knows. The oil companies may wheel out that water based fuel technology that they have developed, bought up and hidden away whilst they make their fortunes out of extracting and refining oil. That's if you are a conspiracy theorist :)
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It's only new diesel and petrol cars and vans that are being banned. We'll still be able to use our existing cars and vans until they rust in piece.
And if you want extra range on your electric car, then buy the largest generator you can afford and tow it behind you on a trailer and make your own DIY hybrid.
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>> We'll still be able to use our existing cars and vans until they rust in piece.
Well not existing cars. Cars nearer the time maybe. Your Astra is not likely to be serviceable in 23 years time :-) And neither are our cars. That includes smokie's 'new' Ampera and Lygonos' MB B-Class plug-in.
Last edited by: rtj70 on Thu 27 Jul 17 at 02:06
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>> Well not existing cars. Cars nearer the time maybe. Your Astra is not likely to
>> be serviceable in 23 years time :-) And neither are our cars. That includes smokie's
>> 'new' Ampera and Lygonos' MB B-Class plug-in.
>>
Some of us on here have vehicles that are a lot older than 23 years old.
The other thing that is not clear about this is whether it is only private cars which will not be sold.
Will I still be able to buy a Transit type vehicle with an ICE engine, will that include motor caravans?
Does the option exist for the ICE luddites out there to put seats in a van and use that?
I have also not seen any idea that Pat and her successors are going to be driving 44 tonnes of electric vehicle.
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It's just a political statement. A declaration as to where the government thinks we should be heading. Twenty three years is an awful long way away. Five elections and who knows what economic changes. We might all be lucky to have a bike in 2040 let alone an electric car, those still here that is.
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It feels like pretty much everything will be "banned" by then anyway. ;-)
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A little pessimistic surely, life will be very different but will go on, even when some of us are gone.
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Yes life will go on but will we be as prosperous as we are now.?
The last few years tend to indicate that perhaps we won't. There is no natural law that guarantees ever increasing prosperity for the UK.
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>> There is no natural law that guarantees ever increasing prosperity for the UK.
>>
accepted but I still think in general we are nationally better off than we were 10 years ago or 20 years ago. In the long term quality of life is getting better.
It's all opinion but I just feel more positive than you seem to be
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I was thinking along the same lines, the politicians making these policies will be long gone when it is realised that the infrastructure has not been put in place to make it viable.
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If the population continues to increase at its present rate, no one will want to use the roads by 2040 anyway; congestion does not distinguish between electric and ICEs.
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>> If the population continues to increase at its present rate, no one will want to
>> use the roads by 2040 anyway; congestion does not distinguish between electric and ICEs.
>>
What would make a real difference would be reducing the need to travel between 8 and 9 am and between 5 and 6 pm.
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>> What would make a real difference would be reducing the need to travel between 8
>> and 9 am and between 5 and 6 pm.
>>
Like by making 4 days weeks the norm and reducing commuting by 20% in one shot, rather than 5 x 8 = 40 hours make it 4 x 10 = 40 hours.
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A listener on a phone-in programme queried whether an electric car could pull a caravan.
Probably caravans and motorhomes will be banned by 2040 anyway.
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>> A listener on a phone-in programme queried whether an electric car could pull a caravan.
>> Probably caravans and motorhomes will be banned by 2040 anyway.
>>
Maybe I am being naive but I cannot see banning caravans and motorhomes happening, it's a step too far in British terms.
Won't worry me by 2040 anyway, I will be 85 if I am still around, unlikely to want to be holidaying in a caravan anyway.
Look at the last 25 years, can any of us really forecast what life will be like in 25 years?
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>> Like by making 4 days weeks the norm and reducing commuting by 20% in one
>> shot, rather than 5 x 8 = 40 hours make it 4 x 10 =
>> 40 hours.
the problem with that is that everybody chooses Monday - Thursday as the 4 days they spend in the office so you get a quiet day on Friday but no real difference for the rest of the week.
At least that's how it worked in RBS in central London a year or two ago when I was working there.
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>>
>> >> Like by making 4 days weeks the norm >>
>> the problem with that is that everybody chooses Monday - Thursday as the 4 days
>> they spend in the office so you get a quiet day on Friday but no
>> real difference for the rest of the week.
>>
It would have to be managed, perhaps Sunday would remain "special" and everyone's working day would vary over Mon - Sat, perhaps differing from week to week or month to month so all had a chance to have a regular two day weekend.
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> What would make a real difference would be reducing the need to travel between 8
>> and 9 am and between 5 and 6 pm.
>>
>>
Indeed I'm convinced alot of office/white collar workers could move a fair amount of work into home working. That would help cut down on congestion, hopefully it'll occur sooner rather than later. Perhaps the range anxiety issues might help move this along and get people to think differently about of they need to commute at all.
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>>Indeed I'm convinced alot of office/white collar workers could move a fair amount of work into home working
"Sure Mrs Miggins, just pop it up to your webcam"...
..."Ok, I know what that is - I'll email you a prescription and a leaflet for the GUM clinic"
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....it sure could confuse you as to whether you were on-duty or off......... ;-)
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Aww sooty's link to the webcam doctors in the US disappeared.
One problem with 'online' medicine is the proliferation of prescription drug dependency (which is bad enough here though nowhere near the levels across t'Pond)
www.theguardian.com/science/2016/may/25/opioid-epidemic-prescription-painkillers-heroin-addiction
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It was just a bit of a joke, hence the smiley.
Edit, how come my post vanished?
Last edited by: sooty123 on Thu 27 Jul 17 at 13:59
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>>It was just a bit of a joke, hence the smiley.
I know - I just hope that's not how general practice ends up in the UK!
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> I know - I just hope that's not how general practice ends up in the
>> UK!
>>
That's a whole nother thread!
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>>I have also not seen any idea that Pat and her successors are going to be driving 44 tonnes of electric vehicle.
>>
Some progress
www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-40715793
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Blimey that was quick!! LOL
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>> Well not existing cars.
Existing, as in whatever we happen to be driving in 2040.
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Can't help feeling that all the effort is going into tackling the result of the problem rather than the problem itself.
Pretty much every densely populated area has traffic congestion problems no matter where you go in the world. And yet, there is clear evidence that many short car journeys are unnecessary and could easily be substituted by walking or cycling.
Combine that with the seemingly inexorable rise in cases of obesity and you begin to understand what a real solution could be. I'm sure we can all think of examples of people who use cars to go to the post box, the corner shop, the local school etc etc when walking would often be quicker and healthier.
What is more urgently required is an attitude change to local mobility and personal well being.
Short range, low fuel cost electric vehicles are are only going to add to congestion and support the attitude that it's reasonable to use a vehicle for short journeys when nature has provided perfectly useable limbs designed for that very purpose.
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I couldn't agree more... I live one mile from the centre of Settle , and in 17 years I can count on the fingers of both hands the number of times I've driven there to buy essentials, even lashing rain and wind. In all those years I've never walked past certain of my neighbours. They always take the car. And they are chubby.
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>> Can't help feeling that all the effort is going into tackling the result of the
>> problem rather than the problem itself.
>>
....hey, don't go doing that joined-up thinking thing!
It's rather ironic that the Government have decided that all this pollution from diesel and petrol is unsustainable, only a couple of days after they've binned long-term plans to electrify a number of main rail routes, in favour of using ((yes, you got it correct) diesel propulsion.
The whole thing has nothing to do with long-term planning, and everything to do with short-term political expediency.
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>> The whole thing has nothing to do with long-term planning, and everything to do with
>> short-term political expediency.
If I were in charge I could fix Londons problem in a week.
Crush every black taxi.
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>>>> If I were in charge I could fix Londons problem in a week.
>>
>>
>> Crush every black taxi.
>>
.....and introduce a whole new set of problems....... ;-)
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>> .....and introduce a whole new set of problems....... ;-)
Like?
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>> Like?
Like what replaces them. Uber?
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With their much more environmentally friendly cars, that don't spend hours idling away on a cab rank, with their much cheaper fixed fares you mean?
Yes excelent idea, go to the top of the class bromp
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>> Crush every black taxi.
The sort of thing Oxford is proposing from the end of 2018.
tinyurl.com/y8z93n4u - links to The Oxford Mail
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>> Can't help feeling ... >>
Totally! very well said!
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>> It feels good for once to be of an age where one doesn't have to
>> worry about all this claptrap.
>>
Our country and its Governments are certainly renowned for nonsense ideas and faux pas and this is yet another one to add to the list. Where's Heathrow's additional runway. You have to laugh, don't you. It always amazes me that the Channel tunnel was ever built but that was a joint effort of course.
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>> Our country and its Governments are certainly renowned for nonsense ideas and faux pas and
>> this is yet another one to add to the list. Where's Heathrow's additional runway. You
>> have to laugh, don't you. It always amazes me that the Channel tunnel was ever
>> built but that was a joint effort of course.
>>
Its crazy, the delays and procrastination must cost the country a fortune in lost opportunity.
Then there is the staggering cost of even small infrastructure projects, a 3 mile single carriageway road over farmland cost over £120 million here 2 years ago, no wonder they balked at and turned down the much needed 12 mile bypass!
Gatwick has offered to pay for its 2nd runway without Govt. funds and wants to do it right away. I know the skies are crowded but it makes sense to have a 2nd runway there as well as at Heathrow and decent link between the two.
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Copied from her Facebook page.
I know she has her own sales agenda - but it's a point of view ignored by the tree-huggers
"*** ELECTRIC DREAMS OR ELECTRIC NIGHTMARES?*** Andrew Neil (BBC Journo) just Tweeted: "BANNING new diesel/petrol cars by 2040 will add 30 gigawatts to current electric peak of 61GW. From where? Windmills? 10 Hinckley C nukes?"
.*******
So, you've bought a Nissan Leaf. WELL, WIPE THE SMUG SMILE OFF YOUR FACE, Mr t***-FEATURES.
Everyone coming home and plugging in their electric cars in the evening for 8-hours and crashing the grid, is a big issue and I think people should discuss how it will be overcome.
.**********
Freezers aren't the problem, electric cars are (or soon will be). So the introduction of "smart pricing" is looking to the ELECTRIC CAR PROBLEM, not to saving 2p on your freezer running costs. It's establishing the model for variable power pricing.
What will happen is that the cost of charging electric cars will rise to match the demand on the electric supply. There isn't enough UK power supply ...so just like Uber's surge pricing, the cost of charging an electric car will skyrocket when demand for power outstrips supply. Which will be 24h/day if all cars are to change to electric by 2040. (...and what about buses, trucks, construction equipment and motorbikes?)
Look, no-one really blinks when they pay £75 to fill up their car with petrol or diesel.
**WHAT WILL HAPPEN IS THAT THE COST OF CHARGING YOUR ELECTRIC CAR WILL JUMP TO SIMILAR LEVELS, SAME AS A TANK OF PETROL, BECAUSE PEOPLE WILL PAY THAT**
Not only will that fund the power station increase, but do people really think that the infrastructure (charging stations, converting every BP garage) will be cost-free? Not to mention loss of fuel tax revenue, extra grid transmission wires and the plug in meter on every parking space... these all cost a fortune.
.*********
The UK will beg the Chinese to build 10 more Nuke stations, and it still won't be enough. You can't magic electricity supply.
.*******
Charging an electric car will soon jump to parity for mile-for mile of range, the same as filling a car with petrol. It will soon cost £75 to charge an electric car at home, as they begin to outsell oil-fuelled cars. Then £100 as demand grows, and so-on.
So fill your boots with a petrol or diesel or electric car while you can, MOTORING WILL NEVER BE AS CHEAP OR AS EASY AGAIN. - Ling"
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I am sure the government is working out how to tax electricity used as road fuel (and add VAT to the tax). There is no way they are going to lose out on the tax take.
Last edited by: Old Navy on Sun 30 Jul 17 at 09:47
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Facebook link here.
Full rant, including enough bad language to make this site's swear filter delete at least one paragraph
www.facebook.com/lingscars/videos/1093994927397078/
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Class me as a treehugger but I quite like this planet as it is, and just bear in mind that the last lot of dinosaurs became extinct. :-)
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And you think we won't become extinct? Dream on!
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Not in our lifetime.
Well not mine anyways :-)
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Or mine hopefully, but one event took out the diosaurs and we have the capability to do it unaided by nature. We are doing it slowly already, as did the Easter island inhabitants on a smaller scale.
Last edited by: Old Navy on Sun 30 Jul 17 at 14:03
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The Easter Islanders didn't become extinct though.
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>> and just bear in mind that the last lot of dinosaurs became extinct. :-)
>>
Luckily for us.
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>>I know she has her own sales agenda
Yup
>> it's a point of view ignored by the tree-huggers
I don't hug trees but I've covered this point at least 3 times on these fora over the past year or so
10 million EV cars, each travelling around 10,000 miles pa will need 20-25,000 GWh of electricity each year which would mean around 3GW of power constantly.
Assuming every one of these cars recharged over an 8 hour period at night (which they won't because many will charge through the day) that would mean 9GW for 8 hours each night to charge 10 million cars.
9 GW is less than the night-time dip in electricity demand we see today.
Despite all the capital letters and profanities, she is wrong.
The Grid can comfortably handle a switch to EVs.
Next issue?
Last edited by: Lygonos on Sun 30 Jul 17 at 23:30
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>> The Grid can comfortably handle a switch to EVs.
The bigger problem to solve is where people charge cars overnight night. Flats, terraces houses etc. are a challenge.
In 23 years the infrastructure to produce and distribute power can be solved. Where to plug the cars in might be more difficult. Unless the charge time at a 'fuel station' comes down a lot.
Before we all had easy access to cars we managed. Society has become dependent on cars we can quickly refuel.
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>> >> The Grid can comfortably handle a switch to EVs.
>>
>> The bigger problem to solve is where people charge cars overnight night. Flats, terraces houses
>> etc. are a challenge.
I don't think it's impossible that the existing self driving technology will be extended such that it will allow your car to go off by itself when you get home. It then would find a free charging point (inductive) locally somewhere, queuing or whatever as needed, and be back in the morning for you at the time you told it with enough charge for your next journey.
That's what a Roomba or similar vacuum cleaner already does in your lounge when it runs out of juice and you're not about. Decides it needs charging and goes and plugs itself in in the corner, ready to carry on.
It's not that far away technically to be able to do that with cars. All sort of legal obstacles to solve I know.
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>> >
>> >>
>> It's not that far away technically to be able to do that with cars. All
>> sort of legal obstacles to solve I know.
>>
If we can get to that stage that it would be much more sensible to dispense with the concept of individual ownership altogether. You subscribe to a national pool system, and when you need transport you just call one. The nearest available charged car would appear - maybe from a recharging depot, maybe having just completed another assignment near you - and when you've finished you just wave it goodbye and it tootles off to its next assignment.
Individually-owned cars could be outlawed. There would be no insurance issues to bother about - that would all be taken care of in the subscription charge levied by the state (or privatised) National Transport Agency. No need for motor insurance at all. Individual risk would be non-existent, merely technical breakdown of the automated vehicle control system.
The big problem with all these concepts for the future is that it will be impossible to change to it overnight, or even within a decade. So for a long time automated cars will co-exist with traditional ones, and it seems to me that is a recipe for mayhem. Once it is realised that an automated car will in effect have a perfect, no-risk "driver", then a real driver can simply exploit that and drive wherever he likes, knowing that the automated car will always give way. real drivers engage in a battle of will and nerve, and most people back down in the face of a right of way or aggression. But it's hard to see how an automated car can be programmed to engage in a rule-flouting stand-off, deliberately risking a crash to assert its rights.
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>> The big problem with all these concepts for the future is that it will be impossible to change to it overnight, or even within a decade
This is not always a problem though. Sometimes technology can make a jump. For example, in many developing countries, the government dropped the idea of laying phone cables to wider people in favour of improving 4G mobile connections. So lot of people who had not even landline phones directly jumped into fast broadband via mobile network.
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The bigger problem to solve is ......
1.Where is the government tax revenue shortfall going to come from?
2.The potential for ME instability when they have no oil revenue.
Perhaps we do not need to worry unduly because the Brexit magicians will be looking for a new challenge post 2019 :)
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Although I'm quite happy that I might be saving some money at the moment, there is no need for EV motoring to come in cheaper than current fuels. All they need to is work out a method of taxation which puts the cost to about the same as we have now.
And maybe there are also some spin-offs which can have a value attached, like less people needing NHS treatment for whatever affliction is caused by fossil fuel motoring.
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Indeed
Motoring is far too cheap at the moment allowing for a massive increase in car use to the detriment of our environment
A move to more expensive electrically powered vehicles would in the long run be a good thing.
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>> Motoring is far too cheap at the moment allowing for a massive increase in
>> car use to the detriment of our environment
>> A move to more expensive electrically powered vehicles would in the long run be
>> a good thing.
>>
yet another thing for the millennial generation to throw at the "oldies"
"you had cheap motoring and we can't"
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Not really. Cars and motoring have only become comparatively cheap in recent years. The no car household was common for the first half of my life and multiple car ownership in households was rare. Now the opposite is the case.
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>> Not really. Cars and motoring have only become comparatively cheap in recent years. The no
>> car household was common for the first half of my life and multiple car ownership
>> in households was rare. Now the opposite is the case.
>>
Agree that it has mainly happened in the last 30-40 years , however for nearly half the population, that's all they know.
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>> Not really. Cars and motoring have only become comparatively cheap in recent years. The no
>> car household was common for the first half of my life and multiple car ownership
>> in households was rare. Now the opposite is the case.
>>
On the contrary, fifty years ago motoring was much cheaper. I bought my first car at the age of 17 for £10, and tax and insurance were similar amounts. I paid for these out of my pocket money. My friends were in a similar position. There was much competition at school to acquire cars and pass the test.
Also it was easy to add a young person to a father's insurance at minimal if any additional cost, and insurance companies took a relaxed attitude to technical "fronting".
By contrast starting our own children on the road costs a fortune.
From the 30s onwards the reason more people didn't own cars was social - some classes just didn't aspire to car ownership - and the existence of good affordable public transport.
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>> On the contrary, fifty years ago motoring was much cheaper.
Sorry thats just plain wrong. As a percentage of income motoring for the average driver is much cheaper and more available than it was 50 years ago.
Sure you can throw in the odd exception, like young drivers, but thats all it is, an exception.
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>>
>> Sure you can throw in the odd exception, like young drivers, but thats all it
>> is, an exception.
>>
An exception that could have applied to anyone who wanted a car. Nothing to do with age, except that insurance would have been even cheaper for mature drivers.
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>> And maybe there are also some spin-offs which can have a value attached, like less
>> people needing NHS treatment for whatever affliction is caused by fossil fuel motoring.
I still can't equate the falling death rate, increased life span and growing population with all these deaths that are occurring due to pollution.
Someones sums are awry.
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There is certainly some merit in considering the downsides of pollution, and what we do to handle them in the future, but at the moment (much of) the debate is rather along the lines of "x% of patients die under surgery, so we'd better stop doing surgery!".
;-)
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>> The bigger problem to solve is ......
>>
>> 1.Where is the government tax revenue shortfall going to come from?
>>
>> 2.The potential for ME instability when they have no oil revenue.
>>
>> Perhaps we do not need to worry unduly because the Brexit magicians will be looking
>> for a new challenge post 2019 :)
And the EU countries can rely on Brussels to solve it for them?
A point that is missed is that for now, using electricity is at least equivalent in cost to petrol/diesel once the tax is excluded, and especially when the subsidies for those ridiculous windmills are accounted for. The rest of us are massively subsidising EV users. Long before we all have EVs, the tax will have to migrate to EV use.
I notice that Tesla plans extra-rapid charging points at a cost per charge similar to filling up with petrol. If that happens here we will be subsidising them as well.
I've done the same sums as Lygonos on generating capacity. I don't think it's quite so straight forward, because of peaks; but that can be solved I think. It might just mean that your car won't necessarily start charging when you plug it in, or when the timer for Economy 7 clicks in at 23.30. The internet slows down when everybody tries to use it at the same time. Electricity will be the same.
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>> Long before we all have EVs, the tax will have to migrate to EV use.
>>
....more likely road-charging across the board.
That gives the possibility of evening out much of the basic tax regime, whilst still allowing additional "penal" taxes by sector/technology to influence change practice and migration.
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The UK is the first to cuck itself to UN's Agenda 2030 for an enslaved global population.
All other Western countries will follow.
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>> The UK is the first to cuck itself to UN's Agenda 2030 for an enslaved
>> global population.
>> All other Western countries will follow.
>>
Rants have more effect if they are factual:
"Angelique Chrisafis and Adam Vaughan
Thursday 6 July 2017 14.20 BST Last modified on Thursday 6 July 2017 22.00 BST
France will end sales of petrol and diesel vehicles by 2040 as part of an ambitious plan to meet its targets under the Paris climate accord, Emmanuel Macron’s government has announced."
tinyurl.com/y8qj6pkn
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>> The UK is the first to cuck itself to UN's Agenda 2030 for an enslaved
>> global population.
>> All other Western countries will follow.
Good to see you have approached this without an agenda, unswayed by soundbites and fatuous slogans.
Last edited by: Zero on Mon 31 Jul 17 at 16:08
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Wow a red scowly face. I'll wear it like one of flap ears medals
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>>I don't think it's quite so straight forward, because of peaks; but that can be solved I think. It might just mean that your car won't necessarily start charging when you plug it in, or when the timer for Economy 7 clicks in at 23.30.
Most cars can be set up to 'know' when it needs to be charged by, as this allows climate control to ensure the vehicle is just how you want it when you get in, using mains power rather than battery power to heat it up/cool it down.
Also the rate of charging is variable and can be reduced/increased from within the car - the Merc can vary from 8A to 16A per phase - there would be no massive technical issue with having 10 million cars charging at reduced loads dependent upon generation capacity.
And all the batteries left over from dead EVs would make a nice storage facility for the Grid which it currently lacks (other than pumped hydro).
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Maybe also we'll find that smart meters somehow get roped in. Current home chargers don't talk to anything but, for instance, maybe in future they could talk to the SIM in smart meters to tell the electricity company how much is being used to charge the car.
(Though some cars, mine included, have a "granny cable" which goes directly into a standard plug socket, but can't draw so much current - my car is either 6 or 10A)
I don't think it would take a technical genius, or much cost, to hang it all together such that the power companies know when you are charging a car and how much you've used - and therefore apply additional; tax to it, if that's what's required. Public posts just need to charge you the inclusive rate.
Last edited by: smokie on Mon 31 Jul 17 at 12:19
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What about if they were anything close to a one to one swap from ICE to EVs? How would the grid manage with say 30 million EVs?
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Approximately 200bn miles per year are driven by cars.
This equates to 40-50,000 GWh of electricity, around double the amount I used in the fag packet figures above.
Some grid expansion would be required if 100% of the car miles became EV assuming no reduction in electricity use elsewhere. Considering wind/solar will be expanding through this period I wouldn't lost any sleep over it.
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>> Approximately 200bn miles per year are driven by cars.
>>
>> This equates to 40-50,000 GWh of electricity, around double the amount I used in the
>> fag packet figures above.
>>
>> Some grid expansion would be required if 100% of the car miles became EV assuming
>> no reduction in electricity use elsewhere. Considering wind/solar will be expanding through this period I
>> wouldn't lost any sleep over it.
Interesting thanks
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>>
>> And all the batteries left over from dead EVs would make a nice storage facility
>> for the Grid which it currently lacks (other than pumped hydro).
>>
....don't give anyone ideas!
If the Government realise this, when anyone hooks-up during the day to charge, they'll be sucking all the residual charge back ino the grid to cope with daytime peaks.......
;-)
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>>
>> ....don't give anyone ideas!
>>
Ideas? Bless you, this kind of thing has been on trial for a year or two now anyway.
Nissan Leafs feeding charge back into the grid:
www.aiche.org/chenected/2016/05/future-grid-here-nissan-begins-vehicle-grid-storage-trial
The world is changing very fast indeed. It's easy to miss if you don't look for this stuff at this moment, but the trickle of this kind of tech is already becoming an avalanche, worldwide.
Last edited by: Crankcase on Mon 31 Jul 17 at 13:14
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The Announcement - Old Navy
