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No new petrol or diesel cars to be sold in the UK after 2040. No diesel scrappage scheme.
(ICE = Internal Combustion Engines)
Last edited by: VxFan on Mon 31 Jul 17 at 10:34
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Don't worry, you're not likely to still be driving in 2040.
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True, I will be lucky to be alive. I am glad I lived through the long range personal transport years.
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Our Govt can't guarantee a policy decision for a week so treat this long Range plan with a pinch of salt!
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True, if there isn't a breakthrough in battery technology I forsee the proposal heading for the long grass. Maybe hydrogen fuel cells will come to the rescue.
Last edited by: Old Navy on Tue 25 Jul 17 at 22:21
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Apparently its because
they are in breach of EU emissions standards
Dont worry, Brexit fixed that
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Battery technology is already moving forward but more importantly existing technology is becoming cheaper. I can't point you at articles proving this but the knowledgeable people on a solar forum I frequent are now often saying that battery "solutions" are becoming a more viable option, whereas a year back the mantra was that it was massively not worthwhile.
Last edited by: smokie on Tue 25 Jul 17 at 23:19
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>> Battery technology is already moving forward but more importantly existing technology is becoming cheaper. I
>> can't point you at articles proving this but the knowledgeable people on a solar forum
>> I frequent are now often saying that battery "solutions" are becoming a more viable option,
Come back on here in 5 years and tell us that.
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The current problem for battery powered cars (pun not intended BTW) is charging. Unless it's rapid and I mean very very quick, for some an electric car will not be practical.
Take streets with terraced houses or flats... where and how do you recharge the car?? Work will not be an option for many.
I could sort out a charging point and off-road parking at a cost. Garage is a bit too small/narrow. And space in front of garage when gates open far to short. The problem of living on a corner.
But I could sort it if needs be... but for this house it was possible to extend the kitchen properly.... those houses on the street with drives at the side of the house can't do that. And no cantilever needed.
Last edited by: rtj70 on Tue 25 Jul 17 at 23:45
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I read that they are looking at other options as well as quicker charge e.g. quick change battery packs where you drop into a recharge station and someone swaps the whole battery unit. Like swapping your BBQ calor gas bottle...
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I can remember a government many years ago stating that FM radio would be turned off-many years ago!
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A statement heard on Sky news, "My mobile phone won't make it around the M25 what chance has a car got?"
As vans have been mentioned all manner of deliveries will be affected. I know the delivery route that I am on for the courier companies in my area based near Edinburgh airport covers the area as far north as Dundee
Living outside the public transport infested cities, as in most of the country, could be a problem. The distances involved would need multiple fast charging points in every layby.
Last edited by: Old Navy on Wed 26 Jul 17 at 08:53
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We all know it couldn't work at the moment
So they have set the date as 2040, 23 years from now
Either - technology will advance enough or new technologies will be introduced which will make it possible and it will happen
or
Technology will not have advanced enough, it will be just as impossible or will require a huge and varied series of exemptions and a bodged version will be introduced instead
or
It will have been kicked into the long grass and will be planned by 2070
or
something else
It is not something to bother about now
especially for the more "mature" members of this forum, most of whom will be either 6 foot under or else totally gaga by then anyway
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I have a vision of the future whereby the roads will be "Electrified" like the Railways! - then we'll all be running around in cars fitted with "pick-up" poles like a load of fairground Dodgems!! ;-)
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>> I have a vision of the future whereby the roads will be "Electrified" like the Railways!
Or the roads will have wires buried underneath them and the vehicles will be inductively charged.
Last edited by: VxFan on Wed 26 Jul 17 at 09:34
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>> >> I have a vision of the future whereby the roads will be "Electrified" like the Railways!
>>
>> Or the roads will have wires buried underneath them and the vehicles will be inductively charged.
>>
Or our roads restored from the decades ago installation of cable TV and then there are just a few potholes that appear in the spring to sort out :-)
Progress is an electric Transit to deliver the milk.
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>> I have a vision of the future whereby the roads will be "Electrified" like the
>> Railways! - then we'll all be running around in cars fitted with "pick-up" poles like
>> a load of fairground Dodgems!! ;-)
>>
Just like trolley buses! Non londoners may not understand.
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>>
>> Just like trolley buses! Non londoners may not understand.
>>
....given that there were probably around 50 trolleybus networks in the UK over the years, that demonstrates a rather London-centric view of life......
;-)
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Bradford had trolley buses 25 years before London decided use them.
Some countries still have them. Travelled on one in Budapest a few years back.
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You don't have to have lived through an era in order to understand the common terminology in use.
I am perfectly aware of what is meant by;
charriot
sedan chair
horse and carriage
hansom cab
stage coach
motor omnibus
steam roller
milk float
greyhound bus
rickshaw
steam train
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But not spell or write them :-)
Chariot
Stagecoach
Steamroller
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>> But not spell or write them :-)
>>
Spelling wasn't standardised then.
Guilty to "charriot", but it does come from old French charrier.
:)
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Should have done my homework, I had not realised there were so many in use in the UK, although more than 20 networks had ceased before 1960. I now know more about trolley buses than I did 20 minutes ago! My London centric view of the North was of smoky chimneys, slag heaps and trams.
It also looks like they may make a comeback!
www.bbc.com/news/uk-wales-south-east-wales-25782841
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>>My London centric view of the North was of smoky chimneys, slag heaps and trams.
>>
...which has now changed to one of smoky chimneys, slag heaps, trams and trolleybuses.......
......spot on!
;-)
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It's just to early to say, the IC engine may have decades left.
There may be a major tech break through next week, or it might be next year or next decade or ...
And as far as infrastructure is concerned, induction circuits under roads etc, that would take decades and there would be no one willing to invest unless it was guaranteed to be the long term solution.
Imagine millions invested in induction charging and someone rolls out the fuel cell with 1000 mile + range.
And in infrastructure terms 20 years is nothing, the second Severn crossing and associated works are 20 years old though still seem fairly recent.
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>> I read that they are looking at other options as well as quicker charge e.g.
>> quick change battery packs where you drop into a recharge station and someone swaps the
>> whole battery unit. Like swapping your BBQ calor gas bottle...
Yeah, except of course that auto battery packs are not designed to be swapped quickly, and none of them are the same technical specs, and of course they weigh large amounts of kilos, and they take up space, specially all the dead ones waiting recharge.
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>> Yeah, except of course that auto battery packs are not designed to be swapped quickly,
>> and none of them are the same technical specs, and of course they weigh large
>> amounts of kilos, and they take up space, specially all the dead ones waiting recharge.
>>
Yeah but they could be designed to be swapped quickly, via trolleys, in minutes.
I have said this for years, you buy or lease the car though you lease the battery and pay for the charge by exchanging a dead battery for a charged one, your Ka with have one battery, your Fiesta two, your Mondeo maybe four and Focus RS perhaps six.
It's problem that needs solving though it's not insurmountable.
EDIT: And A key benefit is that you are future proofing the battery technology, as the batteries improve the new ones come into the battery "fleet" and customers will automatically benefit from the reduced weight and/or increased range.
Last edited by: Hard Cheese on Wed 26 Jul 17 at 12:05
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>> Yeah but they could be designed to be swapped quickly, via trolleys, in minutes.
They could, but they are not because of all the reasons I mentioned. Reasons that are not likely to change. Now or anytime in the future.
Future proofing the battery technology? Rubbish quite the reverse in fact, what you do by standardising battery specs is freeze the technology into the dark ages.
Nope, large quick pack changes are not coming - ever.
Last edited by: Zero on Wed 26 Jul 17 at 12:09
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> They could, but they are not because of all the reasons I mentioned. Reasons that
>> are not likely to change. Now or anytime in the future.
>>
You might be right though that does not mean that it's not a good idea.
>> Future proofing the battery technology? Rubbish quite the reverse in fact, what you do by
>> standardising battery specs is freeze the technology into the dark ages. >>
Rubbish, take AA batteries, a format that is 100 + years old, early ones were perhaps 50mAh where as a contemporary lithium AA may be up to around 4000mAh.
So, say, a 1960's Ever Ready torch can last for much longer than the designer ever though possible between battery changes. It would great if the same future proofing were possible for electric vehicles.
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>>Rubbish, take AA batteries
Car batteries will vary enormously in capacity, from say 20 to 120+ kWh.
They will also differ in shape depending upon model of vehicle.
Remember a 100kWh battery pack has a value of ~£15k - not many people would want a few dozen of those lying around for scrotes to nick unless there was a huge premium to be made providing the service to pay for insurance!
It is dead end tech for cars.
There may be a role for it for HGVs and the like where companies have their own workshops and switching over a 500kWh pack would make more sense than a 4+ hour charge time.
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Has anyone considered the safety aspect of these future huge battery packs upon impact?
I've already lost a work colleague due to an accident impact with the two standard lorry batteries which subsequently ignited the whole cab and trailer within minutes.
Pat
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>>Has anyone considered the safety aspect of these future huge battery packs upon impact?
Safer than the 50 gallons of diesel on each side of a cab, or 10 gallons of petrol behind/beneath you in a car I expect.
If a Li-ion pack is on fire (they don't explode, they burn) I presume best advice is let it burn itself out while protecting surrounding property.
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>> If a Li-ion pack is on fire (they don't explode, they burn) I presume best
>> advice is let it burn itself out while protecting surrounding property.
Get the flock out of there is my advice!
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>>Get the flock out of there is my advice
Ha! I meant for the fire professionals of course.
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Not so easy for the driver trapped in the cab....
Pat
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>>Not so easy for the driver trapped in the cab....
The driver died due to things other than the batteries burning (lead acid doesn't burn too well).
Li-ion batteries do burn but take some time to get going - diesel once caused to ignite (harder than petrol I agree but HGV exhausts and turbos get F hot of course) burns ferociously.
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The impact ignited the batteries which in turn ignited the diesel....according to the inquest.
They were two relatively small batteries compared to what is being discussed here for the future.
Pat
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Lead acid batteries don't burn* - I presume some short circuit occurred which may have ignited fuel - diesel unlike petrol doesn't ignite from sparks usually unless very hot, so I expect the diesel tanks had been compromised in the crash and diesel vapourised off a hot bit of lorry.
No matter, there's not many grimmer deaths than being stuck in a burning vehicle, and I've seen a few.
* www.sbsbattery.com/PDFs/SBSfloodedLeadAcidBatteries06112013.pdf
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>> ever though possible between battery changes. It would great if the same future proofing were
>> possible for electric vehicles.
And torches have remained the same shape and size ever since. You are talking out of your rind with absolutely no idea of car design. In your "every car is AA battery sized world" the transverse engine mini would never have happened.
I repeat, Standardised fast car battery pack service stations are NEVER coming. In cheese world or the real word.
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>> I repeat, Standardised fast car battery pack service stations are NEVER coming. In cheese world
>> or the real word.
>>
Tesla actually started off down this road, and then abandoned it.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=H5V0vL3nnHY
I like the idea, and think it represents the only realistic option for longer distance usage of EVs.
I do agree it's massively unlikely though. It would need a standard agreed between all the manufacturers and some kind of multi-vendor working committee set up to oversee compliance and steer the specification (a la USB, DVD, Blu-Ray etc). There is currently far too much money to be made with proprietary technology for this to happen, in my view. Packaging is also going to dictate that the battery packs are often inaccessible with many EV designs.
My main concern about EVs is that nearly 4% of all UK tax revenue today comes from duty and VAT on petrol and diesel. This is going to have to be taken from elsewhere as it reduces over the coming years.
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>> I like the idea, and think it represents the only realistic option for longer distance usage of EVs.
"Only realistic"? No I think it is entirely unrealistic.
What is realistic, and happening right here and now is 250-300mile range EVs that can charge up in under an hour in a M-Way service station, ready for another 4 hours at the NSL.
Unfortunately it costs upwards of £60k to do this today so not realistic for all...
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>> What is realistic, and happening right here and now is 250-300mile range EVs that can
>> charge up in under an hour in a M-Way service station, ready for another 4
>> hours at the NSL.
>>
"Under an hour" is a pretty big step backwards from the 2-3 minutes we have with IC. And entirely unrealistic for most people.
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I'm not sure about that. How often do most people make journeys of more than 250 miles in a day? If they do most people would stop for a break after driving that distance. If there was a sufficient network of charging points a range of 250 miles and a charging time of 1 hour would work for most people.
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>> I'm not sure about that. How often do most people make journeys of more than
>> 250 miles in a day? If they do most people would stop for a break
>> after driving that distance. If there was a sufficient network of charging points a range
>> of 250 miles and a charging time of 1 hour would work for most people.
>>
Don't you folk in Norwich realise what traffic levels are like on the motorways ? Thousands of cars needing to stop for a charge at MSAs is not feasable.
Last edited by: Old Navy on Wed 26 Jul 17 at 20:56
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Then they'll do it elsewhere or perhaps we'll revaluate long distance travel or a combination of the two.
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>> Then they'll do it elsewhere or perhaps we'll revaluate long distance travel or a combination
>> of the two.
>>
Maybe you will be banned from travelling more than 30 miles from home by road without an expensive permit. A taxation opportunity.
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Maybe you will be banned from travelling more than 30 miles from home by road
>> without an expensive permit. A taxation opportunity.
>>
Quite possibly something like that, link the distance you travel to some form of charge.
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>> Quite possibly something like that, link the distance you travel to some form of charge.
>>
so tough luck if you have two sets of elderly parents 500 miles apart and you are somewhere in the middle
I can see significantly reduced quality of life if this is overdone.
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> so tough luck if you have two sets of elderly parents 500 miles apart and
>> you are somewhere in the middle
>> I can see significantly reduced quality of life if this is overdone.
>>
If you do more miles then it would cost more, quite similar to now really.
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>> And torches have remained the same shape and size ever since. You are talking out
>> of your rind with absolutely no idea of car design. In your "every car is
>> AA battery sized world" the transverse engine mini would never have happened.
>>
Why, whether it an elec motor and a removable battery pack(s) or an ICE and refillable liquid fuel tank designers will come up with their own packaging solutions.
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>> Why, whether it an elec motor and a removable battery pack(s) or an ICE and
>> refillable liquid fuel tank designers will come up with their own packaging solutions.
Nope, because you have just taken the ability for designers to come up with their own packaging solutions away. You have just standardised them, remember?
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I get the point and I don't expect quick change battery "garages" but torches are not the same size and shape, and there is only a handful of battery sizes to fit all. Car batteries don't vary that much really, maybe less than 10 types cover all major makes.
If they could make cars with standard modular packs and if the cost of production continues to plummet anything is possible I guess...
I thought Leaf replacement packs were now well under £4k now, whatever they are they are half what they were a few years back.
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>> I get the point and I don't expect quick change battery "garages" but torches are
>> not the same size and shape, and there is only a handful of battery sizes
>> to fit all.
But the number of cells / cell type dictates the size of torch. Cheddar has just told you you can only use AA's, and that a fixed pack of them. He's also told you where they go, how they are fitted, and how they are connected.
Now, tell me what your torch looks like.
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:-) It's a variable size depending on how much light I want. Like my torches are.
But one of my torches is like a fag packet and fits on the bike handlebars, and one is long and thin and slips into a pocket. Then I have the heavy duty one which is fat and square, and on the roadworks they use larger ones to flash the cones. I also have a torch on a keyring with a battery like a penny.
So as someone up above said, cars with short range have one or two AAs where longer range require more.
The appearance of the torch itself can be Ferrari-like or Beetle like, it's pretty much just a container for carrying batteries around :-)
Fast charging technology is already around, for car batteries and phones,, and I'm sure it will only get yet faster. So your local depot stocks up on the two or three common models of battery, and a fast charging rig, and manufacturers agree on standards for battery size/shape/output and away you go.
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>>quick change battery packs
Dead-end tech from the start.
Also increasingly pointless as EVs can recharge increasingly quickly, and they can all fully charge overnight at home or on a 3-7kW public charger.
Tesla is still top of the heap, recharging 60 miles driving per 10 minutes on a Supercharger, but most others can rapid charge at 40-50kW equating to 30-40 miles per 10 minutes depending upon the car.
My Merc is one of the slowest at around 6 miles/10 minutes (11kW) but that's an outlier.
The biggest drawback is purchase cost and a public infrastructure. Li-ion batteries have an innate value so depreciation is likely to be high at present but even a scrap LEAF must be worth a couple of grand for its batteries.
Until there is a Golf-sized (and Golf quality) EV with 200 real miles of range that can be bought for around £20k, and capable of a full recharge in 30 mins or so, it's a hard sell for many.
That means 45-50kWh or so of batteries which even at today's prices costs around £7,500 per car (compared to around £30,000 for the same batteries 10 years ago).
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>> >>quick change battery packs
>>
>> Dead-end tech from the start.
>>
Rubbish, see my last post, wouldn't it be great if you Merc could achieve double the range, half the recharge time, 50kg reduction in weight or whatever due to advances in battery tech, much better that than scrap the car due to batteries obsolescence.
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>> Until there is a Golf-sized (and Golf quality) EV with 200 real miles of range
>> that can be bought for around £20k, and capable of a full recharge in 30
>> mins or so, it's a hard sell for many.
>>
That great if you are going to park in a retail centre or whatever though what about a remote beach or mountain pass, or muddy field or ...
ICE car - fill up, 200 mile, park by remote beach, day surfing, fill up on way home :-)
Elec Golf - charge, 200 miles, park by remote beach, day surfing, call AA :-(
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Dunno about you but most of my driving involves not going surfing, and if I was I would spend a couple of minutes working out if I can manage it.
ICE car - stranded after emissions soft/hardware fail - call AA.
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Swappable battery packs implies a standard battery pack (probably several per car, so that different sized/purposed cars can carry different amounts of stored electricity), rented rather than owned batteries, automated swapping/storage/charging (they are heavy) and presumably a massive substation at every swapping point.
Charging stations equivalent to petrol/diesel stations would be problematic. It takes five minutes to fill up with liquid fuel. A leaf uses 0.34kWh per mile. A 200 mile charge therefore takes 68kWh
What will be the highest practical rate of charge? How many cars will need to be catered for at once, bearing in mind the charge duration?
It doesn't really get much better charging more frequently for shorter times.
Basically charging has to take place mostly while parked. That implies lots of charge-equipped parking spots. People will have their own at home, either at a personal/shared parking area on in their own boundary. Street parking would need to be equipped. Public car parks. Maybe park and ride will become standard for cities - easier to put most of the charging in a smaller number of big parking areas.
If I were the Minister for Solving the Electric Car Charging Problem I would also be thinking that the number of vehicles miles will need reducing, a lot.
We have had the golden age of motoring. It's all downhill from here:)
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>> Swappable battery packs implies a standard battery pack (probably several per car, so that different sized/purposed cars can carry different amounts of stored electricity), rented rather than owned batteries,
>>
Yes - as I said above you would buy or lease the car though you would lease the battery and pay for the charge by exchanging a dead battery for a charged one, your Ka would have maybe one battery, your Fiesta two etc.
EDIT:
>>We have had the golden age of motoring. It's all downhill from here:) >>
Could this be the golden age, you can own a car that is faster than the 12mpg supercars that I read about as a kid 40 + years ago and does 40 ish MPG with a family of five on board in aircon comfort etc.
Last edited by: Hard Cheese on Wed 26 Jul 17 at 13:09
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>>Take streets with terraced houses or flats... where and how do you recharge the car??
>>
I have a vision of lots of recharging "rigs" being installed in front gardens ready to be swing out over the pavement like the ones used in F1 pit stops.
Flat dwellers ? That is a real challenge. I am sure the powers to be will come up with a n answer.
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I wouldn't give it so long. If a similar campaign to phase out horse drawn transport in favour of motor vehicles by 1925 had been announce in 1900 it would have drawn similar scorn.
In Norwich there is a a rather handsome stone built building now use for shops. Above the arched entrance to the cobbled yard s a carved sign saying" Livery Stables Built 1903". Clearly the developers had no idea of the revolution in transport that was coming.
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"In Norwich "
there maybe a clue hidden here :)
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>> I wouldn't give it so long. If a similar campaign to phase out horse drawn
>> transport in favour of motor vehicles by 1925 had been announce in 1900 it would
>> have drawn similar scorn.
>>
Horse drawn transport persisted way after 1925, especially around cities.
The real difference with this proposal is that it only includes cars, not transport as a whole including goods and passengers and I will believe that things might happen when I see a plan to include the extra electricity generation to replace the billions of litres of fuel used by cars every year.
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Maybe lorries will have an extra trailer just for the batteries so that would be a simple swap when the power runs out.
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>> Maybe lorries will have an extra trailer just for the batteries so that would be
>> a simple swap when the power runs out.
Why not just tow their own power stations? they could run on fuel oil, which could be collected periodically along the route from stations equipped with underground storage tanks and pumps.
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Yes it did but the Western world was essentially motorised by 1925. Who knows how thing will develop in 23 years but I think the odds are that the transport world will look hugely different by 2040. Individually owned ICE cars I suspect will have gone the way of the dodo. With nearly all the population living in large conurbations the big push will be towards viable efficient public transport. The individually owned multiple cars per household model simply cannot be sustained.
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>>With nearly all the population living in large conurbations
>> the big push will be towards viable efficient public transport. The individually owned multiple
>> cars per household model simply cannot be sustained.
>>
A bold forecast CGN, but I suspect totally wrong
If the last 20 years has shown us anything it shows that predicting more than 5-10 years into the future is a dodgy business.
I don't know what life will be like in 2040 but I doubt that the population will be persuadable en masse onto public transport rather than individual transport for anything other than the regular commute to work/school etc.
I think, even now, there are huge differences in public transport capability between cities and smaller towns.
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I'm sure many city dwellers can expand on this but a mate in London gave up car ownership more than 15 years ago, saying the public transport was good enough for most things and he hired a car (or phoned a friend!) when it wasn't.
City dwellers are probably in a better position than those in towns and villages.
Driving through Germany a couple of weeks ago it is obvious that they generate a lot of power using wind turbines. They are never going to be attractive or unobtrusive but I guess they will become a fact of life, just like solar panel farms, and we will just have to accept that, to sustain the planet.
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>> I'm sure many city dwellers can expand on this .... saying the public transport was good enough for most things and he hired a car (or phoned a friend!) when it wasn't.
>>
My son had his car stolen and for many months was car less.
Taxis, Uber and Zipcar/Zipvanwere used to fill in the gaps.
When our grandson arrived he then reverted to his own transport and joined the SUV mob.
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Slight drift of thread, but having watch recent documentaries on transport of days gone by, I have a question?
What stops a trolleybus running off its course and worse ripping down the power lines, or is it touch and pressure connection like a pantograph?
Trams and such are guided, I cant see how trolley buses are guided around their route.
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>> Trams and such are guided, I cant see how trolley buses are guided around their
>> route.
>>
A little chap called the driver sits in his cab at the front of the bus and he steers it :-)
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>> >> Trams and such are guided, I cant see how trolley buses are guided around
>> their
>> >> route.
>> >>
>> A little chap called the driver sits in his cab at the front of the
>> bus and he steers it :-)
>>
and when the poles fall off the wires he gets out and pushes them back up:)
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>> >> Trams and such are guided, I cant see how trolley buses are guided around
>> their
>> >> route.
>> >>
>> A little chap called the driver sits in his cab at the front of the
>> bus and he steers it :-)
>>
Well yes, maybe I should have stated driver in there. Some have answered since, its was just something I couldn't get my head round.
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The connection poles are spring loaded to maintain a connection with the overhead wires. My recollection is that they become detached from time to time. Trolley buses used to carry a long pole for reconnecting the power pick up should it become detached from the overhead wires.
As has been said they carry a driver but of course the route cannot vary by more that a few feet.
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>> As has been said they carry a driver but of course the route cannot vary
>> by more that a few feet.
>>
....though the ones I used to ride had a bank of lead-acid batteries which would allow short distances to be traversed without the trolley connected....
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What are they going to do with the petrol and diesel cuts from the crude oil?
Obviously less will be produced, so there'll be less for aviation fuel, bitumins, plastics etc. etc..
(I know they can crack or reform the petrol and diesel cuts, but at a cost energy wise and environmentally.)
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>> What are they going to do with the petrol and diesel cuts from the crude oil?
>>
And what is going to be taxed to replace the government's income?
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>> Trolley buses used to carry a long pole for reconnecting the power pick up should it become detached from the overhead wires.
Yes a very long bamboo pole carried in a tube under the chassis.
Also used sometimes to move the arms from one track to another.
We teenagers knew all about the acceleration they had. I was easy to chase a bus on our bikes but not trolleybuses.
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Nothing to panic about. 2040 is a distant future.
By then, petrol/diesel cars number will already dwindle due to more affordable electric cars and advancement of battery technology to ease range anxiety.
Hydrogen car could be another possibility.
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Nothing to worry about, we'll all have been wiped out in a nuclear war by 2040.
It's only being so cheerful keeps me going.
Last edited by: Robin O'Reliant on Wed 26 Jul 17 at 12:46
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Look on the bright side, one decent asteroid hit or volcanic eruption and none of us will be left to worry about it. Instant major climate change.
Last edited by: Old Navy on Wed 26 Jul 17 at 12:57
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Electric cars will need many more power stations being built first. I doubt that will happen before 2040. And what will power these stations? Will they be nuclear because gas would not be environmentally efficient and you couldn't rely on wind, tidal barriers, solar etc for all the power.
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>> ..... and you couldn't rely on wind, tidal barriers, solar etc for all the power......
>>
.....checking the weather forecast before going out for a long drive would take on a completely different purpose........
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>> Electric cars will need many more power stations being built first. I doubt that will
>> happen before 2040. And what will power these stations? >>
Petrol and diesel I reckon ;-)
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The swappable battery packs have so many potential advantages not least of which are that the battery packs can be charged when the energy is most efficient to generate such as when the sun is out, or overnight when demand is least.
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>>The swappable battery packs have so many potential advantages
All of which are hugely outweighed by:
1) It's a pain in the harris when you could plug it in for 30 minutes or less.
2) The aforementioned weight/monetary value of all these packs in one place.
3) It'll be a heck of a lot more pricey than plugging it in.
4) Trying to get manufacturers to come up with a common battery package to cover city cars to SUVs when they can't even decide on a single common connector for recharging.
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The batteries in all current Tesla's (not the upcoming Model 3) are all a standard size, i.e. they are 18650's. They are packaged into battery modules and there are multiple modules. The number depends on the car, e.g. a Model S P100D will have more than a Model 60.
These battery modules are mounted in the chassis to keep the weight low down and evenly distributed. And they are protected from damage (although original models had some issues and there were fires). So getting these sort of battery modules out and swapped safely is not a trivial task. And you don't want to have all of the batteries say where the engine normally is because it would be very front heavy.
i.ytimg.com/vi/AbIwgNtsnug/maxresdefault.jpg
The energy density on the Model 3's 2170 battery cells is apparently an improvement.
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Model S battery is a single unit about the size of a pool table top.
It can be removed fairly easily.
Inside this unit are a dozen or more smaller packs, each containing hundreds of cells - getting into these is indeed a pita but generally not necessary.
Plenty of videos of Tesla battery break-downs on the web by people using them for various projects.
There's a Lotus Evora running a Tesla motor and cells through the rear axle which is a tad mental!
450 wheel horsepower is probably around 600 flywheel hp from an ICE
www.youtube.com/watch?v=WDu9HpPD8VY&t=1007s
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>>
>> There's a Lotus Evora running a Tesla motor and cells through the rear axle which
>> is a tad mental!
>>
>> 450 wheel horsepower is probably around 600 flywheel hp from an ICE
>>
>>
This is much more interesting ...
www.youtube.com/watch?v=-BE476MvO_g
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Visio Racer has some fun videos about engines/bikes/cars.
He has a furriner accent but the subtitles help if required
www.youtube.com/user/VisioRacer
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You'd be a bit annoyed to find your P100D's battery was replaced with a 75's battery ;-)
Or would we need to stock different capacity batteries for each model? Even the Zoe has different capacity options.
I think fast charging is the way to go. Refitting a battery pack incorrectly would be dangerous. If you have a hybrid car in the UK, it can only be serviced at a dealership with the correctly trained engineers.... bumped into a few Audi mechanics on the way to Germany when I was off to Munich in 2014. They were have eTron training.
Last edited by: rtj70 on Wed 26 Jul 17 at 20:51
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>> >> Electric cars will need many more power stations being built first. I doubt that
>> will
>> >> happen before 2040. And what will power these stations? >>
>>
>> Petrol and diesel I reckon ;-)
Steam.
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>> And what will power these stations? >>
>> >> Petrol and diesel I reckon ;-)
>>
>> Steam.
>>
and how will you boil the water?
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>> and how will you boil the water?
...by using the hydrocarbons no longer being burned in our city centres, and in a more efficient manner.
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>> ...by using the hydrocarbons no longer being burned in our city centres, and in a
>> more efficient manner.
>>
That is the root of the issue, not burning hydrocarbons in cities, especially at peak times, and that does not justify / require a ban on new ICE car manufacture or sales in 2040 or any other time IMHO.
Efficiency is unlikely to be improved by burning hydrocarbons centrally and then transferring the electricity thus produced to new charging stations etc, to be turned into motion by electric motors.
My suggestion would be to ban/reduce/control the use of cars in city centres and recognise that non urban transport is considerably more individual in nature and most effectively provided by use of efficient ICE engines.
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>>Efficiency is unlikely to be improved by burning hydrocarbons centrally and then transferring the electricity thus produced to new charging stations etc, to be turned into motion by electric motors
Amusingly enough, it actually is, once you take into account all of the energy required to refine oil to a substance that can run in an ICE, and the energy required to transport around the country and sell it to consumers.
The big benefit, however, comes from the ability to use non-fossil sources of energy to create motive power for vehicles.
A typical UK home using a 4kW nominal solar array can produce around 3000-3500kWh per year which, in a more efficient EV such as ZOE or Hyundai Ioniq, could translate to around 15000 miles of driving.
If on-site storage was not available it can be fed into the grid and an equivalent reduction in power station output achieved (minus 10% or so transmission loss).
If they can spend 100s of millions of squids feeding the drivel known as Cable TV to our homes, I think we can manage to improve our power infrastructure.
Fossil burning should be seen as the 'top-up' for other sources of power rather than being the backbone of supply supplemented by wind/solar.
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"Fossil burning should be seen as the 'top-up' for other sources of power rather than being the backbone of supply supplemented by wind/solar."
+1 to that.
What about the old fossils here though? :-)
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>> What about the old fossils here though? :-)
Several I'd like to throw in the furnace
Last edited by: Zero on Wed 26 Jul 17 at 15:13
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Watch out Nebuchadnezzero
Might turn out to be these guys...
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shadrach,_Meshach,_and_Abednego
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This old fossil is staying in the furnace. Should have flown home Monday but changed my flight to Thursday. Just changed it again. No point going home to rain & cloud when I can keep developing my webbed fingers in t'sea.
€56 one way TFS>LBA. Gracias Jet2
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>> you couldn't rely on wind, tidal barriers, solar etc for all the power.
Govt is planning to store excess solar and wind generation in big batteries.
I suspect that they will need to be very big!
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>> Instant major climate change.
Nahh, nothing to worry about, the climate's always changing ;-P
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Somewhat ironic news today from the SMMT that Britian will miss its car manufacturing target this year mainly due to falling UK sales.
I know there's a few reasons, but wondering how quickly all this will happen must be putting a lot of people of changing their car.
Last edited by: Bill Payer on Thu 27 Jul 17 at 10:25
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>> I know there's a few reasons, but wondering how quickly all this will happen must
>> be putting a lot of people of changing their car.
Coincides with the sudden war declared on diesel, brexit fears and the like of VW cheating and lying to their customers.
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One point that has been missed entirely is the embedded carbon issue.
It is a fact that it's generally better in global carbon terms to run an old gas guzzler into the ground than to by any new car.
Also it was said a few years ago that coming from a thirsty petrol car, a small TD would pay for itself in carbon terms in around 100k miles or so, where as a Prius at the time would take 250k miles due to the carbon expended in lithium extraction, battery manufacture, transportation etc.
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>> Lots of fake news about regarding the carbon footprints of various things.
>>
>>
The position has no doubt changed from circa 2010, though no doubt, say, a Golf GTE consumes a hell of a lot more carbon to manufacture than a simple GT.
Likewise a Tesla P100 consumes a lot more carbon than, say, a 5-series.
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>>no doubt, say, a Golf GTE consumes a hell of a lot more carbon to manufacture than a simple GT.
Thanks for bringing your solid facts to the table ;-)
Yes I'm sure more carbon is used in the production of a GTE, but small-battery plug-in hybrids have never been seen as an answer to very much other than artificially low CO2 levels in official tests.
Making an EV like the Tesla emits more CO2 than the BMW but over its lifetime?
No.
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>> Making an EV like the Tesla emits more CO2 than the BMW but over its
>> lifetime?
>>
>> No.
I don't know.
As I say a few years ago it was reported that a Prius would have to do 250k trouble free miles on original battery to match a comparable TD, though today.
I don't know.
Though embedded carbon is a factor that should be considered at Gov(e) level ...
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>>it was reported
That's the problem: by whom, why, and based on what data.
Epic levels of guff spouted from both pro-EV and anti-EV camps.
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>> small-battery
>> plug-in hybrids have never been seen as an answer to very much other than artificially
>> low CO2 levels in official tests.
>>
on the contrary they would probably solve or go a long way to solving, a lot of city pollution problems and suit a lot of people.
Take my commute to London for example, I actually drive to Hillingdon and get the underground, but lets say, for arguments sake, I wanted to drive to the middle of London.
I go 15 miles to the north circular on normal petrol engine, switch to electric as I cross it and drive the rest of the way into London with zero emissions and the reverse on the way home.
Zero city emissions and no worry about range.
Then either plug the car in overnight or charge it from the petrol engine on the way home.
Not a solution for everyone, but a good compromise for a lot of people.
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In some ways, I am glad that I won't be around to see this farce, or that it how it seems based on our current infrastructure. We cannot maintain decent roads, pavements or anything else come to that and we expect the country to be able to service a land full of Electric hungry vehicles.
I watch a lot of EV owners and the Vlogs on YouTube and it would be worthwhile looking at what they currently achieve. Those who have most success though have very expensive Teslas which by there very size enables them to have large capacity battery pack of 70+ kWh. Anything less, say, 40kWh is not a very satisfactory EV in my opinion.
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>>Ethanol made from Brazilian sugarcane “produces around 70% less CO2 than petrol, when the cultivation and production processes are taken into accountâ€. Unica says the use of ethanol in Brazil since 2003 has avoided over 103 million tonnes of the CO2 that the petrol it has replaced would have produced. By-products from the sugarcane-to-ethanol process, meanwhile, are also recycled as organic fertiliser, and plant waste (bagasse) is burned to produce power for the processing mills - with any surplus energy supplied to the national grid.
And Why can't the U.K follow suit?
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> And Why can't the U.K follow suit?
>>
I would imagine it's because we don't grow much sugarcane in the UK.
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I dare say you could do the same with sugar beet.
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Possibly but that's already used as sugar or animal feed.
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>> I would imagine it's because we don't grow much sugarcane in the UK.
IIRC the millions of fields of maize in France are part of an Ethanol scheme. Most of their petrol stations sell 95 octane that's up to 10% ethanol and signage states that, without exception, all post Y2K models can use it.
Academic for me as I use 'gasoil' but if I was on Petrol I'd probably stick the wholly petroleum version.
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>> And Why can't the U.K follow suit?
Yeah, ace, lets turn all the food crops over to producing ethanol.
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>>
>> >> And Why can't the U.K follow suit?
>>
Because Brazil is huge and can spare land to "grow petrol"
Brazil is 8.5 million square km
we are 242,000
Brazil has a population of 202 million
we have 65 million
roughly 3 times the population in a country 34 times the size
South America is big and we are a small, overcrowded country in comparison
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They, (Gov) could tie it in with their much spouted Anti-Obesity campaign and get double Brownie Points! ;-)
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>> >> And Why can't the U.K follow suit?
>>
>> Yeah, ace, lets turn all the food crops over to producing ethanol.
>>
Well we can all get drunk, cheaply.
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The news seems to relate to cars - has anyone heard anything recently about electric motorcycles?
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...or eco friendly planes?
I read the other day about a service ferrying people to the airports in electric cars to save the planet.
I must have been the only one who saw a certain level of irony in that!
Pat
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>> ...or eco friendly planes?
i think there's some work gone into it but gas turbines are very good at what they do. It's looking quite difficult to replace them, RR looked at some new types of engine but it's still on the drawing board.
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Actually, per passenger per mile, Aircraft (in the air) contribute remarkably little to the problem
All the support stuff, getting them up there loaded with pax, is another matter
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>> Actually, per passenger per mile, Aircraft (in the air) contribute remarkably little to the problem
>>
>> All the support stuff, getting them up there loaded with pax, is another matter
Per hour of course they pump out more CO2/passenger mile - people fly a long way. Aircraft emissions have other aggravating factors - the soot, water vapour, oxides of sulphur and nitrogen chucked out in the upper atmosphere, and so on.
As with cars and other light vehicles, as wealth increases in the developing world, there will be a large rise in demand for air travel.
Range anxiety in a battery plane would be exciting.
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>> Per hour of course they pump out more CO2/passenger mile - people fly a long
>> way.
Actually very similar to a car with one person in, and the longer the flight the less the emissions (statistically)
In summary they are no worse than a car.
>> Range anxiety in a battery plane would be exciting.
As the round the world solar flight proved. Didn't exactly stick to a schedule.
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> Range anxiety in a battery plane would be exciting.
>>
Well as flying is pretty dull, might brighten flying up a bit.
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>>
>> Range anxiety in a battery plane would be exciting.
>>
...can't say I fancy range anxiety in any plane......
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> ...can't say I fancy range anxiety in any plane......
>>
Oh I don't know, I think it'll bring back a sense of adventure to flying. Like the good old days.
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....visions of an announcement coming over the PA - "has anyone onboard got a powermonkey......"
;-)
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I think they'd be little hand held generators fall from the cabin ceiling, and everyone would have to work them like billyo. With the cabin crew 'encouraging' everyone, like a modern day Roman galley.
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>> With the cabin crew 'encouraging' everyone, like a
>> modern day Roman galley.
There is at least one member on here who would enjoy being whipped by a girl in uniform.
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>> There is at least one member on here who would enjoy being whipped by a
>> girl in uniform.
>>
...priority boarding, Z?
;-)
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>> I think they'd be little hand held generators fall from the cabin ceiling
Excellent.
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>> >> I think they'd be little hand held generators fall from the cabin ceiling
>>
>> Excellent.
>>
youtu.be/lVhATSQHw9k
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>> The news seems to relate to cars - has anyone heard anything recently about electric
>> motorcycles?
>>
Yes the future is here already.
youtu.be/6X8Rc_IQnyA
;)
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>> Yes the future is here already.
>>
>> youtu.be/6X8Rc_IQnyA
>>
>> ;)
She needs to raise the saddle a little.
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Watch the news! - rtj70
