There are at least 4 on here with either fully electric or plug-in hybrid cars. I just wondered what charging solutions people have at home.
I'm seriously contemplating a Passat GTE - had one this weekend on loan. It might not do any better/worse than my A3 in hybrid or petrol only but I could potentially run this most weeks on electric only.
However, you'd want a faster way of charging than a 13amp socket. I also have to think if I can come up with a solution for charging alongside the house on the street. We don't have a drive as such (a short bit in front of the garage) and there are gates there too. And a Passat GTE would never fit in the garage even if I empty it.
Thanks
Last edited by: rtj70 on Mon 12 Jun 17 at 23:16
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Slight tangent, my row of houses have very modest garages but next door managed to squeeze a Roller in theirs.
Anyway I had a power outlet fitted free under some government scheme a while back even though I didn't (and still don't) have an electric car. I think there are a few different types pf socket but in my mind at least I have the wiring back to the consumer unit for mine even if I have to change the box on the end, when/if the time comes.
I'm sure I've seen some dealers ads which say they will fit one free for you if you buy a car from them. So I presume the Govt scheme has ended.
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There is still a scheme that is government funded - no use to me as the car won't be charged off road.
Unless I claimed I'd charge it in the garage and run the cable to the road under some protective cover for the pavement to prevent tripping.
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I still haven't bothered with a home charger yet - 900 miles so far via public chargers near my home/work.
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We have chargers at the office (I'd need to subscribe to whatever company) but I rarely go there. So pointless to pay to get there/back to charge up even if free. Ironically I could do it on electric only but then it would need charging.
I know I could probably charge up fairly local and just 'work in the car' I suppose for a few hours.
Or not charge it at all. The monthly saving this tax year between a Passat GTE Saloon and a Superb 1.4 TSI DSG SE L Exec is £80+pm. I say + because I'd want some options on the Superb that I don't think the Passat needed, eg. Dynamic Chassis Control.
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www.zap-map.com/live/
That should give you an idea of what's close to you.
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On the charging it while out front, unless it's free and there's no subscription charge for the network you're using it's barely worth charging a PHEV while out. The additional, range, unless you're there all day, simply isn't worth the hassle. The hassle results from the number of networks, and the fact they constantly change. I must have 4 apps on my phone for charging (and probably the same again for 'park by phone' operators!!). If you're there all day, maybe.
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>> Or not charge it at all. The monthly saving this tax year between a Passat
>> GTE Saloon and a Superb 1.4 TSI DSG SE L Exec is £80+pm.
I suspect a lot of plug in hybrids are never plugged in. Idiotic incentive for business use, open to abuse, not wonder people who can do the sums are filling their boots.
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I have to say, being a BEV person, that I don't really get PHEVs. BEV with a REX though, good idea.
What a time to be alive.
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>> I have to say, being a BEV person, that I don't really get PHEVs. BEV
>> with a REX though, good idea.
>>
What's a BEV? Battery electric vehicle? And REX?
>> What a time to be alive.
>>
Are you being ironic?
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A REX is a BEV with an APU
You have to keep up!n
Last edited by: CGNorwich on Tue 13 Jun 17 at 09:02
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>>Are you being ironic?
I was being slightly tongue in cheek, HC, but I guess also making the point that like any new technology that's here to stay and developing fast, it's developing its own niches and language. I feel if I don't keep up with it, in ten years or so it'll be like comparing a fifty year old who understands something called text messaging to the children today who apparently Periscope their own birth. Not that that's necessarily a bad thing, to be fair.
BEV - Battery Electric Vehicle. Only batteries.
PHEV - Plugin Hybrid Electric Vehicle - has both batteries and ICE, swaps between them as it thinks fit
ICE - Internal Combustion Engine
REX - Range Extender - has both batteries and tiny ICE, which generally only kicks in when the batteries run out. Doesn't run the car, just recharges the batteries on the move.
Periscope - live streaming via an app
Live streaming - hang on, this is getting out of hand.
Definitions are loose and general - there are vehicles that kind of do that but with a sort of twist too.
Last edited by: Crankcase on Tue 13 Jun 17 at 09:22
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The small ICE is the APU.
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>> >>Are you being ironic?
>>
>> I was being slightly tongue in cheek,>>
BEV I guessed, probably heard if before though if you know what PHEV is then it's almost obvious.
It was only REX that I had not heard, but then a car with batteries and tiny ICE which only kicks in when the batteries run out couldn't be much further outside my field of interest.
Otherwise I am with you ...
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I always plug ours in.
To be completely frugal one has to do a bit of planning ahead. If you think it's going to be a sunny day tomorrow and you don't need the car in the morning, then we wait to plug it in over midday when the solar is producing too much and would go back to the grid if not used.
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>> Unless I claimed I'd charge it in the garage and run the cable to the
>> road under some protective cover for the pavement to prevent tripping.
>>
Can't imagine you would be able to do that, you've got tripping, vandalism, kids playing around etc to think about.
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I tried a fair few times to get through to the council. I don't think there's an easy answer. I'd like to try plugin hybrid because it probably means I can use mostly electric. And help on longer runs to reduce emissions.
To respond to your issues which are on my mind:
1. Tripping - the cable would need to be protected as far as I am concerned. So cost involved.
2. Vandalism - not sure what one could do even on a drive except then they have entered your property. The actual charging plug cannot be pulled out of the car when it's locked. Same as if you're at a charging point.
3. Kids playing... see vandalism.
A bigger issue might be the poor choice of colour for the Passat at the moment. I liked Indium as a colour but no idea what Manganese Grey looks like.
It looks like a Skoda Superb might be ordered instead. I want to avoid diesel for cost and environment grounds so a petrol Passat is out of the running apart from a GTE. Interestingly Audi have some A4's with 1.4 petrol engines which was not the case when I looked 5-6 weeks ago.
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>>
>> 1. Tripping - the cable would need to be protected as far as I am
>> concerned. So cost involved.
There's bound to be a liability issue.
>> 2. Vandalism - not sure what one could do even on a drive except then
>> they have entered your property. The actual charging plug cannot be pulled out of the
>> car when it's locked. Same as if you're at a charging point.
They can try and are much more likely to when the cable comes out of a property and across a public path.
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>> The actual charging plug cannot be pulled out of the car when it's locked.
And you think that would stop someone from trying? Especially someone drunk on the way home from the pub who's just fallen A over T tripping on the lead.
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>> >> The actual charging plug cannot be pulled out of the car when it's locked.
>>
>>
>> And you think that would stop someone from trying? Especially someone drunk on the way
>> home from the pub who's just fallen A over T tripping on the lead.
>>
My point precisely!
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The A3 takes around 4 hours to charge using the 13A charger - basically a big laptop charger type thing:
www.motoringresearch.com/car-news/audi-a3-sportback-e-tron-2015-long-term-review/attachment/15_audi_a3_e-tron
However we had a ROLEC 32A wall charger fitted:
www.rolecserv.com/ev-charging/product/EV-Charging-Points-For-The-Home
It'll charge the car in around 2 hours - lead supplied with the car is around 5m, though we actually had a 'tethered' charging point fitted, which means the lead's attached to it which saves the faff of getting the lead out of the car all the time. Can't remember the cost, though there was a grant towards it. However, as with all grants, all that did was inflate the price as far as I could tell. I reckon that the unit plus a couple of hours to run a new cable back to the consumer unit should only ever have cost £150ish anyway...
As to whether it was needed... it's certainly a lower hassle way of charging, so absolutely worth it. But for a plug-in hybrid, is a 4 vs 2 hour charge really much of an issue? For us, most of the time, no. It's only really of any benefit if you're constantly nipping in and out while doing 15 mile round trips. Once a day up to 20ish miles, not needed. Multiple very short trips, not needed...
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What a faff, so glad I can recharge my car with 400 miles worth of liquid fuel in less than five minutes almost anywhere.
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>> What a faff, so glad I can recharge my car with 400 miles worth of
>> liquid fuel in less than five minutes almost anywhere.
>>
My thoughts entirely. Mind you, there are plenty of interesting YouTube videos about people who've got plenty of money and have got Tesla cars and explain their life centred around their cars. I, personally, couldn't faff around running such cars, wondering whether I need to plan special journeys to include charging points in order to make my journeys worry free. I'm natural worrier anyway and range anxiety is one thing I don't need.
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Which is why many (most?) EV owners run two cars, which to be honest I guess very many people do anyway. People often seem to have a main car and a secondary runabout.
Anything up to about 85-150 miles ish, depending on your car choice, you take the EV, no worries. Anything over that or too awkward to fanny about with charging, you take the other car.
You can man-maths it out such that the EV miles (fuel 0-4p perhaps) pay for the ICE miles (fuel 10-15p perhaps), if you are so inclined, but the fact remains that for most, the EV is so much nicer to drive, in normal UK tootling conditions anyway. Plus you may (or may not care I suppose) feel good about not chucking out "stuff" in people's faces around town.
Last edited by: Crankcase on Wed 14 Jun 17 at 10:20
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I'm off to look at a Vauxhall Ampera shortly. Rare car, no longer sold in the UK which gives some cause for concern for servicing, but loads are still sold in the US etc. This one isn't truly electric, it always runs off the electric motor but the engine kicks in to recharge the batteries when needed. So the batteries never get that low.
To me, it's quiet an attractive car too. Here's one tinyurl.com/y8v8bppj
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Ampera is probably one of the best EV to date in terms of how it works and what it's like. Real shame that they, as it were, pulled the plug on it. And the replacement (better?) Bolt isn't coming to UK. It's coming to Europe as the Ampera-E, alleged 238 mile range. But not the UK.
Original Amperas are desirable cars still, though, in this niche.
Last edited by: Crankcase on Wed 14 Jun 17 at 10:32
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But not the UK.
Lack of sales in the uk?
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Reliability of the Ampera appears to be top notch.
Lots of them are 100k miles and above with no obvious degradation of the battery packs.
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>> My thoughts entirely. Mind you, there are plenty of interesting YouTube videos about people who've
>> got plenty of money and have got Tesla cars and explain their life centred around
>> their cars.
You've been watching Jame Cooke as well then
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>> You've been watching Jame Cooke as well then
Indeed, as well as Alex Venz, Teslavangelist and of course Fullycharged in addition to Autogefuehl for the best road tests on this planet.
Last edited by: VxFan on Fri 16 Jun 17 at 11:00
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You won't get a grant today (which do still exist) unless you have off road parking. End of. You also need at least a 2G phone signal.
If you try to use one of the companies like Chargemaster, you'll probably get nowhere - "no off road parking mate".
Your only chance therefore is to buy your own charger (whether it's £100 old Rolec on ebay or £1500 for a completely mad Anderson, a "premium" charger that is really no different but comes in a pretty box), and get a competent electrician (who doesn't care about parking) to install it. You need suitable house electrics in place, or be prepared to pay for them. You then have to decide about how to get the cable over the pavement, and all that entails with neighbours/council etc..
Anderson chargers:
andersen-ev.com/
If you put a PHEV on a public charger and go away for hours, you will mightily upset other drivers who need a charge. As in need, not want. Mightily. But the cost structure/time limitations on most chargers now means you wouldn't do that anyway.
The multiple charging companies, multiple cards/apps/charging structures/reliability makes public charging these days a bit of a minefield at the best of times.
However, it's all worked really well for me - free charger and electrics sorted at home under Renault's deal. All charging done at home or with 13 amp at work. Never public charged.
Suggest you just use 13amp and charge overnight, or forget the idea and stick with ICE.
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It really isn't worth the faff, and carrying a load of batteries around is pointless if you're not using them. I'd stick with something that I could refuel in minutes and is good to drive. Though would that be a large car like a Passat or Superb with a 1.4ltr motor hmm, a A4 may not be quite as porky though I'd pay a bit more monthly and get something with a bit more punch, either a bigger engine in one of the Superb genre or a smaller car, or both.
Last edited by: Hard Cheese on Tue 13 Jun 17 at 08:50
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A friend in Leicester is planning a visit to us in west wales in his electric car, and reckons it is just possible leapfrogging from public charging points.
But it occurs to me that what would be really useful would be a portable charger that plugs into any 13A socket. Do they exist? It wouldn't matter if it wasn't the most efficient charger, or very slow. It could be used over night, or just to give enough top-up to get to a proper charging point.
AA vans and others presumably now have something similar run off a generator, just to give a few minutes charge to get someone moving?
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>> But it occurs to me that what would be really useful would be a portable
>> charger that plugs into any 13A socket. Do they exist?
If you mean a 13amp plug with a lead on it that charges the car, sure. Granny lead. I have one. Very slow, charges about 6 miles range back in an hour. Ideal when you're parked for a few hours somewhere away from a proper charger. I charge my car at work using it.
If you mean a diesel generator, no, not really.
The recovery services don't carry anything, other than you. They just dump you at the nearest proper charger, wherever that may be.
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>>
>> >> But it occurs to me that what would be really useful would be a
>> portable charger >>
THIS is what you need:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genset_trailer
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Reading all these comments for the time being a petrol engine which charges a electric motor in the car seems to be the best option.Unless of course a small electric car just for local use.
Just my input what I be looking at in a few years.
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>>
>> If you mean a 13amp plug with a lead on it that charges the car,
>> sure. Granny lead. I have one. Very slow, charges about 6 miles range back in
>> an hour. Ideal when you're parked for a few hours somewhere away from a proper
>> charger. I charge my car at work using it.
>>
That sounds just the thing. If you could carry it in the boot it would be the equivalent of a can of petrol just for emergencies or if going somewhere out of range.
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Yes, it lives in the boot all the time. Occasionally, when I know I'm going to need it, I put an extension reel in there too.
Mind you, costs an eye watering £500.
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>> A friend in Leicester is planning a visit to us in west wales in his electric car >>
>> what would be really useful would be a portable charger that plugs into any 13A socket.
>>
That would need a long extension lead ...
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>> That would need a long extension lead ...
Speak to Virgin Rail...they manage to get their trains from London to Glasgow without the plug coming out !
>>
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>>
>> >> That would need a long extension lead ...
>>
>>
>> Speak to Virgin Rail...they manage to get their trains from London to Glasgow without the
>> plug coming out !
>> >>
>>
Trolley bus (or car) anyone?
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> The multiple charging companies, multiple cards/apps/charging structures/reliability makes public charging these days a bit of
>> a minefield at the best of times.
>
Sounds ripe for tiding up. Do many have a simple pay as you use rather than having to have an account?
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>> Sounds ripe for tiding up. Do many have a simple pay as you use rather
>> than having to have an account?
Everyone wants a simple system where you turn up, wave your credit/debit card at it, and charge, like a petrol pump. Unfortunately we are miles from that and little prospect of it happening, at least in part because there was no initial centralised Governmental setup. It's all different commercial companies trying different things, and buying each other up.
So yes, there are chargers where you can turn up without an account. These will tend to have a "connection cost" and then usually a further cost for the electricity used.
If you arrive at the same charger and you have an account with whoever owns it, you may well have no connection cost and a different cost for the electricity. This, however, will require a monthly sub to the company, so you have to do your sums carefully.
If you turn up at the same charger with a rfid swipe card you got from another company, possibly now no longer in business or subsumed into someone else, you may get a different legacy price, or a free vend, or nothing.
It will not be advertised on the charger, the website or any map what exactly works in which way where, nor will you necessarily get transparent pricing (it's never shown on the charger itself at any point), and it all changes daily anyway.
The big players don't want you to use rfid cards. They want you to use an app. So you need an appropriate smart phone and a good signal and some credit on your phone, and the patience to walk though multiple screens to start and end the charge, if that actually works.
The biggest player, Ecotricity, now requires an app instead of the old easy swipe card, removed free charging and now charges a lot for the electricity, and doesn't open their helpline out of office hours Monday to Friday.
So it's best of luck with the slight shambles that is public charging in the UK. You need to plan, have a backup plan and of course, a backup backup plan.
HOWEVER. As range increases through technology, there is less need to charge publicly at all, so as a future business model the providers are scratching their heads anyway.
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>> Everyone wants a simple system where you turn up, wave your credit/debit card at it,
>> and charge, like a petrol pump. >>
I reckon that's the wrong business model, the focus should not be on charging, it should be on batteries. There should be a standard battery pack that cars of different sizes and types uses multiples of. You own the car though lease the batteries and when the batteries are nearly depleted you can either charge at home etc or you can call into a normal filling station and exchange your 2, 3, 4 or whatever batteries for some that are already charged and waiting to go. It would need cooperation in car design and the batteries would have to be extracted with some kind of trolley though it's all quite feasible, and it future proofs electric/hybrid cars in that they will be able to benefit from on going developments in battery tech in the same way as your '70s Roberts radio can take advantage of 21st century lithium ion batteries.
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>> I reckon that's the wrong business model, the focus should not be on charging, it
>> should be on batteries.
Been tried, didn't work. Maybe it will get tried again, but it failed for both Renault and Tesla the first time round
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Better_Place
www.teslarati.com/tesla-shuts-down-battery-swap-program-for-superchargers/
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>>
>> Been tried, didn't work. >>
Note that Rizla article says "for now".
It's gotta happen, todays model is like having a source of crude and plugging a small oil refinery into your car ...
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There should be a standard battery pack that cars of different
>> sizes and types uses multiples of. You own the car though lease the batteries and
>> when the batteries are nearly depleted you can either charge at home etc or you
>> can call into a normal filling station and exchange your 2, 3, 4 or whatever
>> batteries for some that are already charged and waiting to go.
I think electric cars are much more complicated than a radio. Swapping the batteries in and out is never going to be a simple job.
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>>
>> I think electric cars are much more complicated than a radio. Swapping the batteries in
>> and out is never going to be a simple job.
>>
But we're not doin' it cos it's easy, we're doin' it cos it's gonna make it easy ...
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But we're not doin' it cos it's easy, we're doin' it cos it's gonna make
>> it easy ...
>>
But it's not. I can't see how it's ever going to be quicker or even (practically) possible. Shape, size, access to the batteries, there's so many hurdles to overcome, much easier to concentrate on fast charges.
Last edited by: sooty123 on Tue 13 Jun 17 at 12:47
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Impractical. The batteries weigh around 250 kilograms each. If your refuelling station serves 500 cars a day that would be an incredible weight tos shift about..
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>> Impractical. The batteries weigh around 250 kilograms each. If your refuelling station serves 500 cars
>> a day that would be an incredible weight tos shift about..
>>
125 tonnes, if a filling station today serves 200 cars 50 ltrs of fuel a day that's the same ort of weight.
And batteries will get lighter no doubt.
Some kind of trolley based system shifting five 50kg batteries is not impossible.
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>> 125 tonnes, if a filling station today serves 200 cars 50 ltrs of fuel a
>> day that's the same ort of weight.
>>
You can't pour batteries down a pipe! :-)
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No it isn't
200x50X 1 = 1000 kilos =1 metric tonne
And you can pump that.
And remember you have to remove and replace the battery. So for 200 cars you need to shift
400x 250 = 100,000 kilos = 100 metric tonnes
Not really practical.
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>> No it isn't
>>
>> 200x50X 1 = 1000 kilos =1 metric tonne
>>
Sorry I meant 2000 cars
The point is charging is not the answer, so replacing batteries must be.
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>>
>> Sorry I meant 2000 cars
>>
>>
>> The point is charging is not the answer, so replacing batteries must be.
That doesn't necessarily follow logically does it?
In practice the charging model,will work for many people especially if the range can be extended and the above mentioned REX vehicles may well be the answer in the interim while more efficient batteries are being developed.
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The conclusion I'd come up with before I asked about the chargers is if I don't charge it at home then it makes the hybrid car less useful/attractive. But not ruled out necessarily. It will charge the batteries when driving and last weekend I got slightly better MPG than my A3 in the Passat despite using up most of the power in the batteries before I came home (deliberate to see if it affected MPG).
I have no problem with a 1.4 petrol turbo in a Passat or Superb. They are a lot bigger than my A3. But I do now need the extra space and want to remain in a company car. With the BIK rates now making diesels a lot more expensive, a small turbo petrol makes sense.
For the rest of this tax year, a Passat GTE with comparable specification to a Superb 1.4 TSI DSG SE L Executive works out £80pm cheaper before you take into account fuel/electric. And my driving most weeks could be done on all electric which would save even more. The trouble is safely charging the car at home. Getting a fast charger would help but costs and eats into any savings.
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>> With the BIK rates now making diesels a lot more expensive, a small turbo petrol makes sense. >>
Though the question is how small? 2.0 ltr turbos are quite economical these days, a 225 bhp BMW 125i is only 134grm/KM - 47.9mpg and others are no doubt similar (IIRC my 2002 Mondeo TDCi was 156grm and state of the art then). Surely a 1.4 petrol turbo in a Passat or Superb is a bit too small, OK in an A3 maybe.
>>The trouble is safely charging the car at home. >>
Can't see away around that from what you've said.
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Sounds like a worse situation than i imagined. Not a good situation at all, I'm surprised no one has thought to make it simple. Mind you like you say perhaps public charging will fall out of fashion. I read the latest zoe can do 180 miles on charge. Although I still think they'll be a market for those with no driveway or need to top up on route. Pity it's so complicated.
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>>Pity it's so complicated.
>>
Self inflicted unnecessary brain ache. Once a week or so at a petrol pump for five minutes works for me.
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> Self inflicted unnecessary brain ache. Once a week or so at a petrol pump for
>> five minutes works for me.
>>
For course, but I've little doubt electric cars are the future and the whole thing will have growing pains. But the problems aren't unsolvable.
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When you lot started talking about charging companies I thought it sounds a bit like our wonderful integrated rail and bus companies.
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>>Once a week or so at a petrol pump for five minutes works for me
Twice a week spending 60 secs plugging my car in while I go for lunch works for me.
And I don't give a fistful of £££ to the petrol guy either.
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Good for you, it would not suit my long range pensioner roaming lifestyle. If had to trundle off to an office every day, or to the shops now and again it might be different but I doubt it. I notice it is mainly company leased car users who are going electric. I would expect that to change if they were buying their cars.
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I really can't see electric cars being any greener and less harmful to the planet.
Precious metals have to be mined for production of the batteries.
Pollution emitted from power stations having to provide extra electric power to charge them.
It's all a con.
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>>I really can't see electric cars being any greener and less harmful to the planet.
Power plants making electricity for electric cars is more efficient than refining oil, transporting it, and then burning it.
The polluting part also isn't being ejected in the centres of population.
You also can't run a petrol/diesel engine on wind/solar/nuclear/hydro.
Plenty of precious metals go into ICE vehicles eg catalytic converters.
Batteries that have degenerated are perfectly suitable for static storage, such as at car recharging points or for collecting power from solar/wind arrays when it's not needed or when rates a re cheap (ie fill the battery through the night from the Economy rate and use it during the day) - other than pumped hydro like Ben Cruachan there is currently no real storage in the Grid.
At least modern diesels use concentrated pee to clean the exhausts I s'pose.
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Rapid charging is surely the answer - just who is going to pay for it. And the majority of cars do not support it.
As for a 1.4 turbo petrol being okay for an A3 saloon but not a Superb. The Superb is only 100kg heavier. And the 1.4 turbo petrol (albeit with slightly more bhp) in the Passat was also up to the job.
The reason for a bigger car this time is easier access to the back for starters (for father in law). And it really does make a big difference for him to get in and out. The bigger boot will also be handy.
Another solution for getting power across the pavement might be to not cross the pavement at ground level and do it above the pavement.... Not sure how practical but maybe could include the use of the tree alongside the house ;-) But I'd never leave it plugged in at night.
Maybe I should get the Passat and hope to solve the charging problem later. And the difference in tax means there's £40-80pm to pay for any extra petrol.
Last edited by: rtj70 on Tue 13 Jun 17 at 15:17
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I leave all the early adopters to waste their money. When it's all sorted in 10 years time, I'll be gaga anyway..
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>>I leave all the early adopters to waste their money
Ultimately doing anything other than buying a £500 banger and ditching it when it needs fixed is a waste of money.
While I can get free fuel, £0 road tax, 0% loan and 15 grand off list price, I'm prepared to give it a try.
(From a guy who bought a Kizashi would you expect anything else?)
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I like the electric way, particular the Tesla. Fab car. A neighbour has one. Another guy has an electric Nissan van. No idea what his business is but it works for him.
I don't commute, I do low mileage, I have a driveway, the annual holiday is via jet, I detest stopping at petrol stations. Ticked most of the boxes.
I like hybrids and I think the next car will be one but I want a plug-in and a 10-mile range or more, not a piffling 2. That suits me perfectly, I'd be using a tank a year, if that.
I'd prefer totally electric. It's just the price... I'm not ticking boxes at those prices.
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>> I like hybrids and I think the next car will be one but I want a plug-in and a 10-mile range or
>> more, not a piffling 2. That suits me perfectly, I'd be using a tank a year, if that.
If I could charge the Passat GTE at home without too much fuss (and no risk to the public), I could get away most weeks on electric alone. I might need to fill it up a few times with petrol, call it six tanks of petrol a year.
Going for the Superb will end up costing me even more probably - I can put more options on that :-)
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Coincidently, having test driven but not bought a Tesla last year and so being on their mailing list, I got an email about a low rate finance offer... 1.5% APR, making the P75 £481 a month, with a 298 mile (claimed) range, 0 - 60 in 5.5 seconds and 140 mph top speed. So a lot slower than the BMW, and a lot quicker than the Audi ;)
Just the small matter of the £11k down payment, and the £30k final payment. Still, it is a £61k car...
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>> Good for you, it would not suit my long range pensioner roaming lifestyle. If had
>> to trundle off to an office every day, or to the shops now and again
>> it might be different but I doubt it. I notice it is mainly company leased
>> car users who are going electric. I would expect that to change if they were
>> buying their cars.
>>
I bought our PHEV A3 privately, and it's pretty much a perfect solution at the moment for us. The car is usually used for short journeys, and when used as such runs pretty much exclusively on battery power at between 3p and 4p per mile depending on use. On longer journeys (and it's been to France, the North, and Suffolk reasonably frequently in the last year) as well as at least two 40/50 mile trips a week the combined 200bhp from the combined petrol and electric motors, with bags of torque available from start, is quiet, quick and economical. It'll do 400 miles on a tank even then, and when run on V Power (as we do) it only costs around 8p per mile. The BMW costs around 20p per mile... Pure electric range of 400 miles woul suit me, but that's not economically viable at the moment. It will be though, I'm sure :)
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>> It'll do 400 miles on a tank
When I set out on my journey at the weekend, the Passat had a full tank (minus 12 miles from the office) and a full battery. When I got home I had done 455 miles with an estimate of a range of 100 miles left (just over a quarter of a tank).
I think it could have done 500 miles on a tank full. If I hadn't used electric power at the other end to see what might happen to fuel economy if it had no battery left I might have had more range. Road works were also on battery.
The MPG I calculated matched what the computer said, about 46mpg and around 20% of the journey was zero emission (sometimes neither 'engine was used'). But 46mpg is lower than I thought I'd get to be honest. I've managed 48mpg in the A3 (once) and I think that was partly due to roadworks on a bigger percentage of the journey.
So the Passat GTE only makes sense to save because of BIK and then running it most weeks on electric. The latter could be the bigger saving.
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Sometimes it feels a relief not to have a company car and to have to worry about BIKs and tax relief!
If it was all about the cost you'd be running about in a Citroen C1 or something!
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On longer journeys ours will usually say something like 30/40% of it is emssions free, and that's usually running in hybrid about mode. Short journeys always default to EV mode, and we leave it there. Intelligent use of EV mode in traffic jams and urban driving helps too I'm sure. But don't forget, the Passat is larger and heavier than an A3...
Mind you, today's email from Tesla is offering 1.5% APR, and a P75 with 300 miles of range and 0-60 in 5.5 seconds is £481 a month. There is the small matter of an £11k deposit and £30k final payment, but still ;)
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Either you can afford a Tesla or you can't, if you need to fret about loan percentages and capital cost, depreciation etc........... I can't afford one and wouldn't buy one if I could.
Someone said to me decades ago never put more money into a car than you can afford to lose. Sound advice.
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For the moment we've got two turbo-diesels that do all we need and I'm a follower of the run it into the ground school.
One of them, currently a Berlingo, needs to tow a tonne plus of caravan for which PHEV may not (yet) cut the mustard. OTOH if the Roomie vaporised tomorrow I'd be looking at wider alternatives.
Main use is my 14 mile round trip commute. It also does longer distance runs when 'van isn't in play for various reasons I needn't rehearse here. So long as PHEV could do those without disgracing itself by not keeping up in lane 3 or guzzling fuel when in ICE mode it's be worth a look. If I could charge it on the (municipal) car park we have work permits for there'd be a bonus.
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>> needs to tow a tonne plus of caravan for which PHEV may not (yet) cut the mustard
Passat GTE could do that. An expensive tow car and would you risk that in a DSG ;-)
>> So long as PHEV could do those without disgracing itself by not keeping up in lane 3
Easily keeps up with traffic. With power in the battery it will do 81mph on electric only and acceleration up to that speed was fine too.
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>> Either you can afford a Tesla or you can't, if you need to fret about
>> loan percentages and capital cost, depreciation etc........... I can't afford one and wouldn't buy one
>> if I could.
>>
>> Someone said to me decades ago never put more money into a car than you
>> can afford to lose. Sound advice.
>>
All true of course course. But if you can afford to lose it, losing it in the most cost effective way is sesnible :) 1.5% is much less than post tax return on investments, so...
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>> On longer journeys ours will usually say something like 30/40%
On the way down to south Wales it was about 25 or could have been 26%. When I started out the full battery was only claiming a range of 26 miles. When I came off the M4 it was saying 26 miles so had recharged along the way - topped up so to speak.
Coming back I ran the battery down on the A roads to see what happened on the way back. It was saying 4 miles electric only range when I got onto the M4 and I played around with GTE mode too. Got back to Manchester with 3 miles showing on electric range and 46mpg.
So it only got 46mpg with some help from the electric I would imagine.
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>> >> On longer journeys ours will usually say something like 30/40%
>>
>> On the way down to south Wales it was about 25 or could have been
>> 26%. When I started out the full battery was only claiming a range of 26
>> miles. When I came off the M4 it was saying 26 miles so had recharged
>> along the way - topped up so to speak.
>>
>> Coming back I ran the battery down on the A roads to see what happened
>> on the way back. It was saying 4 miles electric only range when I got
>> onto the M4 and I played around with GTE mode too. Got back to Manchester
>> with 3 miles showing on electric range and 46mpg.
>>
>> So it only got 46mpg with some help from the electric I would imagine.
>>
On a journey like that I can get IRO 37/38mpg in the M135i, and that's not using the EcoPro mode or pussy footing around so, say, 460 miles @ 46mpg = 10 gals or 460 miles @ 37.5mpg = 12.27 gals, a difference of 2.27 gallons at £5.20 a gallon = £11.80 extra or 2.5p/mile.
That's a no-brainer to me, 2.5p extra a mile for a turbocharged 3ltr 6cyl every experience rather that faff with charging and % and elec or ICE questions and only having a 1.4 ltr engine ...
OK, as a company car you have BiK to think of though a 2.0 turbo petrol these days can entertain and be miserly ...
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>> OK, as a company car you have BiK to think of though a 2.0 turbo
>> petrol these days can entertain and be miserly ...
>>
Further to my last post - is a 330e within budget?
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Yes. But it's smaller than I want but I could have one. Doesn't solve my charging problem :-)
Two trains of thought at the moment which would still be a faff:
1. Cable goes over pavement at say 7 foot in the air and then down to the car - no tripping risk. Never left out during evening/night.
2. Open side gates, pull front of car onto 'drive' in front of garage with rest of car out blocking the pavement. It's now on my property - apart from the bit blocking the pavement... so probably not allowed.
Currently struggling to find out what colour 'manganese grey' looks like. A new colour for VW Passats and there isn't one anywhere to look at and no photos either. It's the only colour I'd consider if it's to my liking. Otherwise Superb it is.
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Just looked and it's no longer there. I could have a 330i Touring M Sport Auto if I wanted. But the BIK would make it expensive. I'd pay about £340pm in tax on that. Compare to a Passat GTE at £115.
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Solutions one and two would be illegal I think. You cannot erect structures including overhead cables on the highway. The second is obstruction of the highway.
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You don't want an erection near overhead cables, that's for sure.
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>> You don't want an erection near overhead cables, that's for sure.
>>
It'd be OK if it didn't stay up for long ...
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>> >> You don't want an erection near overhead cables, that's for sure.
>> >>
>>
>> It'd be OK if it didn't stay up for long ...
>>
I'd always understood rubber soled boots would protect from lightening...
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If you mean lightning, too many volts. What you need is a Faraday cage. But a layer of rubber might work with the overhead cable.
Best not to wave your lightning conductor about in the first place.
Last edited by: Manatee on Thu 15 Jun 17 at 15:51
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>> >> >> You don't want an erection near overhead cables, that's for sure.
>> >> >>
>> >>
>> >> It'd be OK if it didn't stay up for long ...
>> >>
>>
>> I'd always understood rubber soled boots would protect from lightening...
Tens of thousand of volts would jump past your rubber soles, no problem.
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Reckon a rubber mat, rubber soles boots and an erection on the pavement might attract the wrong sort of crowd ...
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Rob, an electric car isnt going to work for you.
Remove from list.
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Almost have - but it's a PHEV so can run on petrol and does not need charging. And the monthly saving might mean it is still cheaper. But I'd feel a fraud driving a PHEV and not plugging it in much. It would work as a normal hybrid but I also know it was charging the batteries on the motorway so using petrol that it didn't have to.
That was something I'd have thought was not a green way of doing things. Regenerative braking and cruising to reclaim energy yes - using the petrol engine in hybrid mode to recharge batteries... no. There is a separate recharge mode on the GTE.
Last edited by: rtj70 on Thu 15 Jun 17 at 19:38
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>> Almost have - but it's a PHEV so can run on petrol and does not
>> need charging. And the monthly saving might mean it is still cheaper. But I'd feel
>> a fraud driving a PHEV and not plugging it in much.
Your attitude does you credit:)
I'm sure I could think of an eco argument if I really wanted one! What's the point of a Prius BTW? Is it just that it can do a bit of electric-only in a city?
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Electric (or at least very low) emission cars are excused the congestion charge in London and elsewhere. Also road tax. There are probably other advantages apart from the fuel savings, but as keeps being trotted out they aren't for everyone.
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Check that the latest GTE has the recharge mode...our A3 does, but the recently face lifted e-tron doesn't. Not that we ever use it...what's the point?
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The 17 plated GTE I had last weekend had the recharge mode. The thing that surprised me was it recharged on the motorway when the petrol engine was running in hybrid mode. I'd expected it to use region only unless it recharge mode.
Suppose I could charge it on the drive at my father in laws and 'borrow' his electric at the same time ;-)
I popped to the nearest place with chargers yesterday (I was sort of passing). Local Asda supermarket. Two charging spots - one taken but by a normal car! Car park had plenty of spaces. I could work in the car for a couple of hours I suppose with the laptop. Or watch a DVD whilst waiting.
Last edited by: rtj70 on Thu 15 Jun 17 at 22:48
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>>. I could work in the car for a couple of hours I suppose with the laptop. Or watch a DVD whilst waiting.
Or nip to the Asda petrol station, fill up and get on with your life!
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Or the Tesco one I usually use - no local Asda fuel near me.
I really want to go (partly) electric because it benefits me and the environment. But sadly all along I knew it might not work. I thought some smart answers might have appeared. I could cut a channel to the road for example in the cement bit that is from the drop kerb to property so a cable could never be trodden on...
... but compared to driving up to your property and plugging in a charging cable it's going to be a right faff isn't it. Ah well a Superb has a 66 litre tank vs. the A3's 50 litre so less often to fill up.
I think I'd still save money going for the GTE, even with poorer MPG. But the gap per month comes down next April.
Maybe next time.
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I am in fortunate position of having long driveway so could do electric easy enough but more likely to go hybrid next time - something like an Auris or Lexus CT. My next car is definitely going to be an auto so the hybrid ticks that box as well.
I couldn't afford one of the long range electric VWs / Audis
Followed an electric Nissan van this morning - it could fair take off from standstill!
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In hybrid auto mode the A3 will channel surplus power from the engine to the battery but only briefly, before going into 'sail or even EV mode. Best seen by setting the cruise to 72 and having the energy flow display on the MMI screen. All clever stuff, though I worry who'll be able to fix it when it's 10 years old!!
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>>Suppose I could charge it on the drive at my father in laws
Tiny thought, Rob - lots of people with no room at home have put chargers on other people's property (parents, friends) and some even managed to get grants to do so. If your father in law is just up the road-ish, might that work?
Last edited by: Crankcase on Fri 16 Jun 17 at 08:45
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>> Check that the latest GTE has the recharge mode...our A3 does, but the recently face
>> lifted e-tron doesn't. Not that we ever use it...what's the point?
>>
What is the recharge mode?
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It will stop using the battery charge and also use the petrol engine to charge the batteries. So MPG is going to suffer and under light load it won't switch to e-mode. It might not even turn the engine off when coasting - I didn't really try it.
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>> It will stop using the battery charge and also use the petrol engine to charge
>> the batteries. So MPG is going to suffer and under light load it won't switch
>> to e-mode. It might not even turn the engine off when coasting - I didn't
>> really try it.
>>
Probably makes a lot of sense it you are not in a hurry and are pottering at 65mph on the motorway.
Though reading down this thread it really is all such a faff, personally I'd positively choose to pay extra to avoid the faff and to have an enjoyable, quick though efficient and good handling ICE car.
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>> Probably makes a lot of sense it you are not in a hurry and are pottering at 65mph on the motorway.
It did it at 80mph as well. Maybe the mpg would have been better if it had not.
When I got on the M60 last Saturday the electric only range said 25 miles. When I got off the M4 in South Wales later it said 26 miles. And in roadworks etc it used electric power..
The calculated and indicated mpg was 46 last weekend. I'd hoped for more. Of the 454 miles, around 30 will have been on battery power or everything off. My conclusion is on motorways the hybrid is not so good - and I think similar applied to the Prius. Around town etc it was very good when it had some energy in the battery.
If I had off road parking for my typical driving it would be excellent and save me a lot. I'd take the hit on longer runs.
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>>
>> When I got on the M60 last Saturday the electric only range said 25 miles.
>> When I got off the M4 in South Wales later it said 26 miles. And
>> in roadworks etc it used electric power..
>>
>> The calculated and indicated mpg was 46 last weekend. I'd hoped for more. Of the
>> 454 miles, around 30 will have been on battery power or everything off. My conclusion
>> is on motorways the hybrid is not so good >>
454 miles, did you see my post above? I said "on a journey like that I can get IRO 37/38mpg in the M135i, and that's not using the EcoPro mode or pussy footing around so, say, 460 miles @ 46mpg = 10 gals or 460 miles @ 37.5mpg = 12.27 gals, a difference of 2.27 gallons at £5.20 a gallon = £11.80 extra or 2.5p/mile."
Only 2.5p a mile extra for powerful, effortless, refined ICE fully refuelled in minutes and no faff with charging and charge % etc.
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I have just completed a 1,200 mile pensioner roam around. Starting and ending at my home in central Scotland it covered the cotswolds, west country, and London. Always driving at the speed limit, aircon always on, the full to full consumption over the 1,200 miles was 54mpg. The cars info display showed 57mpg. Much was at 70 mph on cruise control, but it included pottering and London traffic. No consideration was given to economic driving, I am impressed.
I succomed to nature a stopped to a pee at a MSA. There were two sad looking Nissan Leafs with their noses plugged into a charger, the thought was "I will be a hundred miles away before they get far". :-)
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What car is that?
I could have got around 37mpg without sticking to 70, so 1200 / 54 x say £5/gal = £111 whereas 1200 / 37 x £5 = £162, so fifty quid extra ...
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A 2016 Honda Jazz. It averages 47 mpg around town. Quiet and comfortable with tardis like interior space it works for me. :-)
EDIT-
And no diesel, DPF, DMF, battery, or tiny turbo problems.
Last edited by: Old Navy on Mon 3 Jul 17 at 09:05
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... Or about 45% extra cost. And the tyres are more too :-)
So for 10,000 miles/annum, the cost difference is (assume £1.10/litre): £924 vs £1350, or over £400 difference. For some people that £400 will be significant.
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>> ... Or about 45% extra cost. And the tyres are more too :-)
>>
>> So for 10,000 miles/annum, the cost difference is (assume £1.10/litre): £924 vs £1350, or over
>> £400 difference. For some people that £400 will be significant.
>>
The new Jazz looks great IMO and, OK, a Jazz would cost less to buy and to insure and tyres (though 5 year servicing is built into my BMW's cost).
Though £400 extra over 10k miles in fuel costs between 4cyl 1.3 100 bhp and 6 cyl 3.0t with well over 300bhp seems reasonable value to me.
After all only a few years ago a 300+bhp 6cyl car would be doing nearer 20mpg average where as today nearly 40mpg on a run is quite feasible and over 40mpg if you really try (though then you might as well have a Jazz I guess ;-) ...).
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>> There were two sad looking Nissan Leafs with their noses plugged into a charger, the thought was "I will be a hundred miles away before they get far"
Presuming they were hooked up to rapid chargers they take 30 minutes to take on 100 miles of charge.
About the average time for a pee for a gent of advancing years....
;-)
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>> About the average time for a pee for a gent of advancing years....
>>
>> ;-)
You seem to have inside knowledge. :-)
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Well he's a GP - he'll see plenty with this problem on a weekly basis :-)
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Maybe I should have said "internal knowledge". He might even live near me. :-)
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>> Presuming they were hooked up to rapid chargers they take 30 minutes to take on
>> 100 miles of charge.
But I had 300ish miles in my tank, they would never have kept up. They were local runabouts trying to be real cars on a motorway, no chance! :-)
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>> But I had 300ish miles in my tank, they would never have kept up. They
>> were local runabouts trying to be real cars on a motorway, no chance! :-)
Electric cars are improving in leaps and bounds. In less than 15 years we've come from the G-wiz to the Zoe/Leaf and Teslas. PLug in hybrids are spreading. Donkey engines to charge battery off grid are another avenue.
I could use one now for commuting if all I ever did was still drive to station.
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>> I could use one now for commuting if all I ever did was still drive
>> to station.
>>
But you don't , do you. You need a real car.
Last edited by: Old Navy on Mon 3 Jul 17 at 22:26
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>> But you don't , do you. You need a real car.
No. We got a second car in 1996, I commuted to London every day and it was a station hack. So were loads of other cars parked around it from 07:30 to 18:30. Electric with 40 mile range would be fine.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Mon 3 Jul 17 at 22:49
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>> No. We got a second car in 1996, I commuted to London every day and
>> it was a station hack. So were loads of other cars parked around it from
>> 07:30 to 18:30. Electric with 40 mile range would be fine.
All of the people that I know/knew with a 'station car' used the scruffiest Ford Fiesta on the planet!
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If the internet had existed in the 1950s is this perhaps the type of conversation we'd have been reading as these modern new fangled diesel locomotives replaced steam? It'll never catch on. We've got plenty of coal. Why rely on imported oil... But within 15 years, all gone ;)
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A leccie one would suit SWM. She uses the Micra to do the 8 or 9 miles to Stockport or local shopping. Ant longer trips are done in the RAV4 as she won't dive a long distance and I don't particularly like the fartbox Micra, even though it's a 1.2 Auto.
It's not a mancar !
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>>
>> A leccie one would suit SWM. She uses the Micra to do the 8 or
>> 9 miles to Stockport
>>
As I thought an elec car is no good for us, we're 200 miles from Stockport ...
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>> If the internet had existed in the 1950s is this perhaps the type of conversation
>> we'd have been reading as these modern new fangled diesel locomotives replaced steam? It'll never catch on. .. But within 15> years, all gone ;)>>
In 15 years time perhaps we will (almost) all be driving electric cars. The point is that we aren't quite there yet.
An electric car in 5 - 10 years time for the majority of us? Yes, very likely. But not today.
Last edited by: Duncan on Tue 4 Jul 17 at 07:35
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Battery cars are only ever going to be a stopgap solution to a problem that does not exist. When fuel cells become viable battery cars will be just another redundant technology, 8 track cassette tape player anyone?
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>> Battery cars are only ever going to be a stopgap solution to a problem that
>> does not exist.
What is the problem that doesn't exist?
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>> What is the problem that doesn't exist?
>>
We will not run out of oil or become extinct through pollution before a viable alternative to personal long distance travel becomes available. Battery cars are all part of the climate change scam. The climate has always changed and always will.
Last edited by: Old Navy on Tue 4 Jul 17 at 13:32
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>> battery cars will be just another redundant technology
Pretty much all technology is eventually redundant surely? From Vinyl records to gas lights.
Electric cars suit some very well. It'd suit me very well were it not for the fact that I am in a country which has no suitable infrastructure.
Undoubtedly it doesn't suit all. Though I'm not really sure why some people for whom it is not suitable are driven to insist that therefore its rubbish for everybody.
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>> Undoubtedly it doesn't suit all. Though I'm not really sure why some people for whom
>> it is not suitable are driven to insist that therefore its rubbish for everybody.
>>
If you have a limited commute and can easily plug in then it can work, though even then you get home from work and want to go shopping and can't cos the car's charging, or if it's not flat you have to unplug it and re plug it just to pop out for some milk. Tho it is rubbish for most people due to limited range, slow charging etc, despite there are many that will put up with the compromises because it gives them a warm feeling.
There are other examples, Reliant Robin enthusiasts for instance, it was always rubbish and always will be rubbish, I suppose Only Fools gave it some character though it is still rubbish.
Hybrids are also a compromise, lots of faff to save a couple of hundred quid a year for most people.
Enjoyable quick cars are so much more efficient these days, in another thread I worked out that my 3.0t 6cyl BMW would cost fifty quid more over a 1200 mile trip than ONs 1.3 Jazz, that's a price worth paying IMO for the effortlessness, the ease of overtaking and the overall driving experience. Of course the BMW costs more than a Jazz though three year old BMW v new Jazz, or new Prius, or new Leaf, or new Zoe hmm ...
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>>Hybrids are also a compromise, lots of faff to save a couple of hundred quid a year for most people.
Not really fussed about the couple of hundred quid, trivial as you say. I just think they're cool.
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>> Hybrids are also a compromise, lots of faff to save a couple of hundred quid
>> a year for most people.
>>
One of my colleagues, who swapped a 330d for a 3 series PHEV in March quoted the savings for him at 600 per MONTH. Don't know his income / tax details but that sounded worth it to me.
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>> >>
>> One of my colleagues, who swapped a 330d for a 3 series PHEV in March
>> quoted the savings for him at 600 per MONTH. Don't know his income / tax
>> details but that sounded worth it to me.
>>
That sounds unrealistic as a 330d would not be anymore expensive than a 330e and is pretty good in BiK terms. Perhaps £600 per year?
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Assuming the guy is a higher rate tax payer, and indeed that these are company cars, and that he pays for his own private fuel, then the difference/saving in bik tax per month would be in the region of £250. Then you'd have to know how much he was spending on private fuel, and how much he thinks he is saving on that.
Still a fair chunk of money to the good even if his £600 is a bit optimistic.
Last edited by: Runfer D'Hills on Tue 4 Jul 17 at 15:31
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>> Still a fair chunk of money to the good even if his £600 is a
>> bit optimistic.
>>
Yep, though it serves to show that the PHEV needs favourable tax rules to truly compete, for a private buyer it offers little over a 330d or 330i for that matter.
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I think it also included a government grant off the price and I don't know how long a lease he had it on which could also have affected the cost.
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>> I think it also included a government grant off the price
There will have been the £2500 grant. But the P11D price he pays his tax on will not take the grant into account.
The saving in 2018/19 will be less because the BIK rate for a PHEV like this will jump from 9% to 13%. The following year it jumps to 16%.
He will not be saving £600/month. But the diesel 330d if new as a company vehicle would see the BIK quite high. And if you do high mileage (personal at least) then the MPG of the PHEV won't be as good as a diesel.
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If you have a limited commute and can easily plug in then it can work,
>> though even then you get home from work and want to go shopping and can't
>> cos the car's charging, or if it's not flat you have to unplug it and
>> re plug it just to pop out for some milk. Tho it is rubbish for
>> most people due to limited range, slow charging etc, despite there are many that will
>> put up with the compromises because it gives them a warm feeling.
>
i don't know i bet it would suit quite a lot of people. The average mileage for a private motorist is 7k, I think the average commute is 40 miles. Obviously not everyone is in the situation that it would suit but I bet the market, where it would suit is in the millions.
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>> Presuming they were hooked up to rapid chargers they take 30 minutes to take on
>> 100 miles of charge.
>>
As they were occupying the only two chargers in the MSA what happens if two or three more battery cars with depleted batteries arrive? Book into the adjacent Travelodge?
Last edited by: Old Navy on Tue 4 Jul 17 at 12:54
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or wait 30mins until one becomes vacant?
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30 minutes! Some people treat MSAs as holiday destinations. There is no way I am going to queue for an indetermate time to refuel my car, I may be a pensioner but I have a vague schedule when traveling. You only need someone who has decided to have an extended lunch and give their battery a "good charge". :-)
Last edited by: Old Navy on Tue 4 Jul 17 at 18:54
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The chargers in MSA are not meant to be used to fully charge an electric vehicle are they? They don't do rapid charging like Tesla power points.
I'd be pretty annoyed if I needed a top-up to my car and someone was in the service area for an extended comfort break.
But the rules/charges for these charging stations keep changing. I guess they are struggling to make money from their investments.
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>> 30 minutes! Some people treat MSAs as holiday destinations.
You've had a 30 minute holiday do tell.
:-)
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I suppose it is little different to the people who block petrol pumps while they do a weekly shop in the petrol station convenience store. I know a charging point that always has a dealers liveried car on it, advert?
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A local charging point to me (there are two) has had a car parked in the bay when I've checked. And it's not an electric or PHEV vehicle. Plenty of space in the car park.
Personally could have saved on tax if I went for a PHEV and benefitted again if I occasionally plugged it in. But these need to be charged regularly... so I opted for something else. It will cost be each month a little bit more. So you pensioners on here will benefit.
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Your contribution to my pension is appreciated, enjoy your car, life is too short for tree hugging. Solutions for fuel will be forthcoming when circumstances dictate a change of power source. Battery cars will not be one of them.
Last edited by: Old Navy on Tue 4 Jul 17 at 20:04
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I see plenty of Leafs and Zoe's every day round here; the retired seem to love them ;)
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Not this one, my recent roam about would not have been an easy relaxed couple of weeks with a battery car. A retired pal has a Leaf, he never goes more than ten miles from home. So sad, there is so much to see and do.
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I think people choose them to meet their requirements rather than anything else. Would your friend travel more in a ICE car or when he had one?
Someone i worked with has a leaf, he goes all over the place in it, on holiday in the SW, him and his wife are so happy with it they are getting a second one.
Last edited by: sooty123 on Tue 4 Jul 17 at 21:41
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>>the people who block petrol pumps while they do a weekly shop in the petrol statio
Well, I wouldn't do the weekly shop because of the prices, but I;ve been known to drop in for a few things.
Once, in an effort not to block a pump, I moved my car off the pump into a parking space before walking in to shop and pay. That went quite badly quite quickly. Won't be doing that again. Mind you, neither will i walk in, pay for the fuel, walk out and move the car, and then walk in and buy more stuff.
So it might be me blocking you.
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>> I suppose it is little different to the people who block petrol pumps while they
>> do a weekly shop in the petrol station convenience store.
Probably a pensioner, you know how much time they have on their hands.
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Not this one, I have places to see and things to do while I am fit enough. I hopefully have some years to annoy the people who have to work by operating at my pace not theirs. :-)
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I'm with Uncle Albert on this^.
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Have to work, or choose to ;)
Anyway, bringing it back on track...no new ICE-only cars for Volvo from the year after next...
www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/cars/article-4666422/Geelys-Volvo-electric-new-models-2019.html
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I'm 62 this month. Fortunately most people think I'm at least a year younger. I'm travelling overseas as much as possible whilst I have the health & money, but due to an elderly relative cannot venture to the other side of the world with a backpack for 6 months.
6 weeks in Spain over winter, or CA and thereabouts in summer, is the current limit of my travels.
In my final few years I prefer a great big petrol engine if you don't mind. It helps the economy, although I don't know whose.
My 'green credentials' are picking up litter I find on my walks ... plastic bottles, crisp packets, and similar detritus.
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That just charging sitting on the pavement?
Didn't think that would be allowed which maybe means the charging point was DIY installed?
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Methinks a burning car reaches a greater temperature than 300ºC.
And the picture of the 'melted lithium-ion pack' is the wall charger.
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Before Tesla fitted improved underside protection to the Model S, the batteries were vulnerable to damage. And when they start burning the fire will be pretty intense. Worse I would imagine than that small lithium ion fire at the back of the 787.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_787_Dreamliner_battery_problems
A lot of batteries in a Tesla Model S 100D and P100D.
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Takes quite a while for a Li-ion battery fire to get going - petrol is far quicker!
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>> Takes quite a while for a Li-ion battery fire to get going -
Takes even longer to put out.
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I am just referring to a fire that started in a Tesla Model S. Probably took a while to take hold. Remember the batteries are in the chassis - and now they are better protected than they were originally. In most other electric cars I think they are a little better protected inside the car.
Some reports of fires due to accidents months before the fire in the Model S.
Last edited by: rtj70 on Sun 9 Jul 17 at 23:52
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>> Takes quite a while for a Li-ion battery fire to get going - petrol is far quicker!
Putting it out is harder. The fire services will deal with a battery fire differently to a petrol/diesel car fire surely.
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>>Putting it out is harder
Main issue for the firemen I imagine is the high voltage system (chunky orange cables).
Li-ion battery fires are usually due to perforation of a cell/cells leading to a thermal runaway as the electrodes short circuit, or overcharging causing cell rupture.
There is no lithium metal in the cell - the fire is due to the electrical potential energy being dumped at a very high rate settling fire to whatever bits of plastic/flammable electrolyte are nearby.
Pretty sure the fire itself can be extinguished with any type of extinguisher.
www.scientificamerican.com/article/battery-fires-in-electric-cars-danger/
If I was going to be involved in a car fire I'd rather be in an EV than an ICE.
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Powdered graphite extinguishers are the weapon of choice apparently. The alterbative is copious amounts of water in a fine spray. The dangers then is that the intense heat will generate hydrogen from the water and cause an explosion.
www.safelincs-forum.co.uk/topic/1572-what-extinguisher-for-lithium-batteries/
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>>The dangers then is that the intense heat will generate hydrogen from the water and cause an explosion.
Ha ha - this is nonsense.
1. No metallic lithium = no hydrogen
2. to 'split' water into hydrogen and oxygen in any meaningful amount needs temperatures well over 2000ºC - can't say I've seen many car fires with rivers of molten steel running away from the chassis.
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I would worry more about the burning plastics and wiring in a car...Some really nasty products formed in fires..
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It is usually the smoke and it's constituents that kill, long before the fire itself.
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The inquest proved that was certainly the case when one of our drivers died when his lorry caught fire after an accident.
Pat
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I got the government funded charger. You have to decide which one etc... and of course because I had to make that choice before I actually had the car I got the wrong one.
So I have a spare 32A tethered type 2 charger, which I could fit now as an additional charger as it would work in the i3 - or any of the newer European cars.
The Mitsubishi PHEV needs a type 1 plug - doh!
So I removed the tethered cable charger and replaced it with a socket charger from Rolec.
www.rolecserv.com/ev-charging/product/EV-Charging-Points-For-The-Home
This unit is modular so I put in a type 2 socket in the lower and a normal mains socket in the top.
That way I can charge both cars at once - with either one using the fast or mains slower socket depending on needs etc. At max that would pull 40A which is pretty much the maximum for the unit, cable and fuse box. It is connected via 6mm cable to a separate FCU. You can't pull that much through the normal consumer unit.
IMHO a type 2 socket is the most flexible solution because it mirrors what you will find out and about. You will need a type 2 to type 2 cable (for i3) or type 2 to type1 (for Mitsu PHEV). 5m or longer as needs be. See www.evcables.co.uk. The thing is you will need one of these cables anyway to make use of most of the charging services outside. (The exception is Ecotricity who give you a tethered cable and offer fast charging.)
So only install a tethered unit if you don't really want to keep plugging and unplugging your cable. I tend to leave them attached to the unit anyway.
To be honest we rarely charge outside anyway. The PHEV isn't worth the hassle. The i3 however is because you can combine it with parking. e.g. Brighton - where it is around £1 to park and charge.
Funny enough I am in central London this weekend at some posh do where the hotel parking will be around £40. The Source London card is a few quid for charging and parking so this is clearly a win-win.
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Still haven't charged at home - local 22kW posts keep me topped up - Merc can max charge 11kW from 3-phase AC [3x16A], and no DC rapid ability
>> IMHO a type 2 socket is the most flexible solution
Yep - considering Tesla manage 150kW with a heavy duty type 2 cable it seems a waste of effort for makes to use Chademo and CCS plugs.
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Electric Car Chargers - smokie
