Driving test: Learners must be able to use sat navs
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-39594852
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I would have thought that any use of a Prat Nav was a distraction and to be discouraged. Has 1st April gone??
Last edited by: Fullchat on Sat 15 Apr 17 at 00:59
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Why do you think that? Most drivers use one, they are fitted to many cars and there is a certain skill in using one safely. Seems eminently sensible to me.
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Because to look at the information on the screen you take your eyes momentarily off the road ahead.
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As soon as they pass thier test, they are going to be using a sat nav anyway, so surely its better they get taught and tested using one.
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The interview on R4 with Andrew Jones, the transport minister, regarding the changes was very unconvincing.
Full of good words ( from a script?) and lack of detail.
He dismissed the New Zealand ideas implemented re young drivers.
Seemed to be not very aware that lots of folks use a phone for Sat Nav rather than a built in unit.
My X type with built in Sat Nav is a 15+ years old design and the newest maps are 5 years old.
It still functions but a phone sat nav is obviously a very attractive, tempting but illegal alternative for a driver.
Will the tester bring his own sat nav for the test or will some time during the test be spent inputting destinations?
I know an MoT tester who removes any movable item obstructing the windscreen swept area,
e.g. air fresheners dangling off the rear view mirror. What will happen re positioning of portable sat navs?
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All good questions, would have thought learning to use a map first would be better not to mention how a car works etc. How many drivers don't know which wheels are driven etc, ridiculous really.
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>> It still functions but a phone sat nav is obviously a very attractive, tempting but illegal alternative for a driver.
For this reason, manufacturer's should provide a central console but rather than a infotainment screen. Thus, this would be a placeholder to keep your smartphone there.
Built-in sat navs become out of date very quickly and becomes a liability. But then it helps the manufacturer (making the car obsolete electronically before anything happens mechanically).
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>> Built-in sat navs become out of date very quickly and becomes a liability.
To the extent that warranty for the electronics are sometimes shorter than the total warranty of the car.
There are also compatibility issues. I was in an older car recently where the Bluetooth would not connect to a modern iPhone. Not the end of the world and the car ran reasonably well but the owner said the kit was an optional extra at the time, costing about £500 and now is useless. The dealer doesn't want to know as the car is out of warranty and a £20 kit from a Tesco garage is now the replacement Bluetooth system.
Updates at dealers for software and maps is a faff that manufacturers really should have sorted by now. TomToms don't need to go back to the shop for an update after all.
My car connects to wifi on my phone or other local connections. Why can't it download updates via that connection data volumes aside? It seems that the car companies do not want to bring the utmost convenience to customers, either that, or they are 5 years behind the consumer electronic times!
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The BMW is enabled to download data to and update the built-in nav/media system. Though whether it does more than download updated mapping and POI data I don't know. It's asked to re-boot twice since I've had it (9 months) after downloading an update. I haven't noticed any change...
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Most manufacturers see updates as income for their dealers, you buy a 20xx car you buy 20xx software.
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>
>> There are also compatibility issues. I was in an older car recently where the Bluetooth
>> would not connect to a modern iPhone.
Being an Iphone, he was lucky the bluetooth ever worked.
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The inbuilt satnav in my 2011 Focus was broke when I bought it.... think I'm in Finland. However, it connects perfectly with my 5S and plays tunes off the wireless.
I use an Osomount 360 Grip, held by suckchun and mounted in the middle of the dash, then use either google maps or maps.me to show me where to go. I normally only use it abroad as I rarely drive anywhere in the UK I haven't been before. Works a treat.
Now it's caravan season in my part of the world, and also mimsing season, I really ought to swap my car for something with sufficient power to pull the skin off a rice pudding.
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>> a phone sat nav is obviously a very attractive, tempting but illegal alternative for a driver.
That surprises me. I wouldn't have expected there to be a problem as long as the 'phone was only used for navigational purposes, and not handled in any way while the engine was running.
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>> >> a phone sat nav is obviously a very attractive, tempting but illegal alternative for
>> a driver.
Not sure where that is quoted from, but clearly not true.
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Here is what th police say:
Q I use my mobile phone as a satnav system, it sits in a cradle with the destination programmed in before I set off. For most of the journey I have the screen turned off. Is it OK to then unlock your phone using finger print scanner to bring satnav back up after the screen has been locked?
A If the mobile phone is held in a cradle then it must not be touched throughout that journey. The moment you touch or handle your mobile phone as part of your journey, then in effect an offence is being committed.
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>> Here is what th police say:
"Stuff which sounds very iffy to me and not couched in legal language".
Where was that quoted from?
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The legislation can be found in The Road Vehicles (Construction and Use) (Amendment) (No. 4) Regulations 2003.
The key definition would seem (to me) to be:
(6) For the purposes of this regulation—
(a)a mobile telephone or other device is to be treated as hand-held if it is, or must be, held at some point during the course of making or receiving a call or performing any other interactive communication function;
...which would mean using a phone as a Satnav as above would not be an offence under this particular regulation.
This is fairly logical, as using a touchscreen Satnav in a similar way would not (in itself) be an offence.
There is no doubt, however, that in either circumstance, under the appropriate conditions, one could be prosecuted for "failing to be in control".
Last edited by: tyrednemotional on Sun 16 Apr 17 at 10:25
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Well now I'm confused, this seems to go against the gov advised posted further up that a dashboard cradle is permitted.
Still don't see how adding this to the test will make new drivers better.
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>> A If the mobile phone is held in a cradle then it must not be
>> touched throughout that journey. The moment you touch or handle your mobile phone as part
>> of your journey, then in effect an offence is being committed.
They are wrong. You could argue that in court and win. Nowhere in the regulations does it say you can't "touch it"
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Thats the issue the regulations are ambiguous.
Take the Emergency services Airwave radios (or terminals as they are now known). They are a combined Two way (duplex) radio and can be used as a telephone at the switch of a button.
Under the regulations two way radios are exempt. Hand held devices capable of transmitting and receiving data aren't.
So in theory whilst it is being used in radio mode it is exempt and in telephone mode it ain't.
Vehicle sets are equipped with hands free gizmos but in reality, as seen on tv, the user generally goes for the device situated on their lapel.
Practice directions indicate that whilst driving a car the vehicle set should be used. As yet there is no definitive answer.
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At the end of the day, the old bill can always fall back on the "not in control" or "due care" offences, as they always could, and did, before mobile phone offences hit the statute book. The mobile phone offences are a typical headline grabbing "we are cracking down on - blah" political statement that requires more form filling paperwork, when the offence was perfectly well catered for under existing laws, which had more punitive punishment.
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I would tend to agree with you. I don't think hold and touch mean the same thing but it would seem some police forces think otherwise.
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I'm almost certain that writing addresses using the touch pads in both the Audi and the BMW (situated between the two front seats) is more distracting than touching a phone in a holder. But iDrive and MMI+ must meet the required EU legislation...
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If it teaches them
(a) not to stick them in the windscreen where they obscure the drivers view
(b) how to put them in 'night' mode
(c) that they are a navigational aid, not to be blindly followed
(d) to input the destination *before* setting off
Then great.
Though I worry how the test will keep up with technology. Both of our cars let you send destinations to the car from a phone (or tablet/PC) so there's not really anything to do. Or you can google (Audi) your destination and do something similar. Start the car and they're there under 'messages' (BMW) or 'Audi connect' Accept as destination and off you go...
How about testing ability to use Apple CarPlay - surely the owners of this forum should have made more of a fuss when they came up with that ;) - while changing lanes on a roundabout :p
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Most of the time I know where I'm going, even on longer trips, having been to most places I need to many times before.
However, I do like the feature on the nav in my car which can "see" traffic problems ahead and will suggest alternative routes to avoid them. Generally works pretty well.
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I wish they would teach and test how to look for other traffic, e.g. look twice (look and check), the value of moving your head, how to adjust mirrors to cover the blind spot. "Looking" is presumed to be so easy and reliable that it can be taken for granted that anbody can do it - but who hasn't had a SMIDSY moment?
The youngsters probably don't need teaching how to use satnav, and I doubt if that particular change to testing is evidence-driven.
I think there is value in testing "reversing round a corner" even if almost nobody ever does it - it's a very good test of whether the driver can actually steer and control the car. Reversing out of a parking space is no substitute.
The current maoeuvres tested are
Turn-in-the-road ("three-point-turn")
Reversing around a corner to the left or right
Parallel parking
Bay parking
only one of which will be tested.
Emergency stops which used always to be tested are now sometimes omitted.
I know quite a few people who will go to any lengths to avoid steering in reverse and would never attempt a parallel park.
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On the plus side, the fewer people who can parallel park the more spaces available for those of us who can :)
Although many cars nowadays come with, or are available with, guided or self parking technology anyway...
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Does anybody still use hand-signals? - I did recently to indicate I was slowing down, and spotted the Woman behind me waving back through her windscreen at me!
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Still?? I've never used hand signals - passed my driving test in 1988.
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I quite often do especially in Summer when I've got the window down and am resting my arm on the door! ;-)
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The only hand signals from the the person driving in front of me that I recognise are :-
A hand holding onto the roof or a hand dangling holding the door shut with a fag between the fingers.
Both signals say to me " Beware a plonker not paying full attention or in full control" :-(
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Does anybody still use hand-signals?
Yup, have to in the Morgan - no indicators. Turning left is always a bit fraught as very few understand the signal.
As for prat navs, silly idea on several counts.
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The three point turn and reversing around a corner are tests of low speed car control. Replacing them with more fashionable tests is OK so long as the dumbing down of car control is not involved.
Last edited by: Old Navy on Sat 15 Apr 17 at 13:17
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As has been raised, my concern would be around the standardisation of the type of satnav used during the test, would a car with a built in one gain an unfair advantage, are new drivers going to end up having to provide their own?
On the same theme I'm guessing that parking sensors have to be disabled during the test?
Will end up like an 'arms' race for which instructors cars offer the best tech.
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>> I'm guessing that parking sensors have to be disabled during the test?
>>
My current current 10 yr old car is the first I have had with factory fitted but basic parking sensors and I have no idea about other versions.
My rear sensors cannot be turned off.
My front sensors automatically switch on immediately after I have move from reverse gear to forward.
There is a switch to temporarily turn off the front sensor.
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My Rav4 VX has a satnav. I haven't a clue how to turn it on, let alone use it. I have no intention of so doing. If you can't remember where you're going or can't read a map then you need to learn.
We're off to my cousins in Huntingdon tomorrow, just needed to refresh my memory on the last mile by using Google Earth. Much better as you can see the local landmarks to look out for.
I also rarely talk when on the move, much to SWM's annoyance. Concentration, observation, anticipation, disbelief. Don't assume the guy flashing you is actually flashing you !
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I use mine quite a bit. I've got a back up map but generally don't bother unless the sat nav packed up, too much stopping and starting to check the map. Never have the voice on, much too artificial and sounds like it's barking commands out so I just glance at the map screen.
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>>My Rav4 VX has a satnav. I haven't a clue how to turn it on, let alone use it.
>> I have no intention of so doing.
It is optional especially if you live in the bush
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>>If you can't remember where you're going or can't read a map then you need to learn.
>>
I have read maps since my early teens. We have lots and lots of maps.
I have to drive into the congested West end of London for SWMBOs medical treatment. My only alternative is a Taxi/minicab for the 30 mile trip plus waiting time.
Yes I know exactly where I need to finish up.
Yes I know 99% of the route, having driven it many many times but the final 1% both to and from my destination is very very difficult but my ancient Sat Nav was a boon.
Looks easy on a map but I pass within a few feet of my destination ( but no stopping and no access).
The Sat Nav tells me to eventually, way way down the road, to take the left turn when I have a few feet to get in lane ( avoiding the bus lane) then a few feet more and left into an narrow road.
I never thought I needed a Sat Nav but am now thankful it is there as a backup at least.
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I love maps but sat-nav of some kind is invaluable for the last mile, and sometimes for non-intuitive junctions.
That's before considering traffic which paper maps are no help with. I have also just about stopped using my Garmin, which uses RDS-TMC traffic. Google Maps on a smart phone is much better, crowd sourced live traffic beats TMC easily for coverage, resolution, and timeliness - more often than not TMC is out of date or has not warned in time. When I changed my car recently I didn't bother paying for the 'grade' with the built in sat nav, which still uses TMC.
I still have and use road maps; much easier to look at the broad options and sense checking a route before I set off, and for checking diversions, but Google does a fantastic job with routing and traffic and I'd be surprised if anything beats it or stays as current.
When going somewhere new, I usually find it in advance on Streeview using a tablet or PC, capture the exact coordinates of the car park, and send the route to my phone before setting off. I have all of the UK offline maps stored on the phone to minimise mobile data use (and problems when off grid). The maps update automatically on wifi.
New drivers today are about as likely to use a paper map as to send a telegram or use a typewriter.
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>> New drivers today are about as likely to use a paper map as to send
>> a telegram or use a typewriter......
....whilst driving.
...oh, just a minute!.......
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Same with my CR-V, the satnaf can even be voice operated apparently, but I'll never use it.
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>> We're off to my cousins in Huntingdon tomorrow,
We'll be in Cambridge, Ted - might go to St Ives on Monday, I expect there'll be a Bank Holiday market, they usually open up the church hall as a caff - mooch round the market, a bacon bap and a cup of tea is a ritual if we are out that way.
If you are partial to a dram, www.wadsworthwines.co.uk/ has a comprehensive selection of scotch whiskies. I might drop in if they are open.
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>> We'll be in Cambridge, Ted - might go to St Ives on Monday, I expect
>> there'll be a Bank Holiday market, they usually open up the church hall as a
>> caff - mooch round the market, a bacon bap and a cup of tea is
>> a ritual if we are out that way.
Enjoy the day Manny. We're going out for an extended family lunch somewhere for my cousin's 50th Anniversary. There'll be lots of grandnippers who we've never met but heyho ! Nice area, he lives in a big house by the river and next to the churchyard in Hartford. Posh sod but OK.
I'm taking me own dram...4 or 5 nips of Speyside single malt in a small bottle for a secret bedroom snifter or two. Home midweek.
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>> I know quite a few people who will go to any lengths to avoid steering
>> in reverse and would never attempt a parallel park.
>>
Having still been instructing when reverse parking into a bay came in I can say it is a far better test of low speed control and accuracy than the traditional reverse corner or turn in the road. The turn in the road was always a pain in the backside as you could spend half the lesson trying to find somewhere suitable without incurring the wrath of people who were held up and waiting, more so now with more parked cars about and increased traffic.
The emergency stop is a very artificial manouvre which bears little relation to the real thing, should you have to do one. I have a satnav but on the rare occasions I need to use it I never look at the screen, just relying on the vocal directions. All in all I would say it is a good idea as more of the test can be geared to actual driving, which is where the real life preserving skills are needed.
Last edited by: VxFan on Sun 16 Apr 17 at 02:17
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I'm struggling to see the legally or technical difference between a ' clamp on' satnav as sold my Helfords et Al by the million over the last decade and one of my phones running a satnav app in the same sort of clamp
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>> I'm struggling to see the legally or technical difference between a ' clamp on' satnav
>> as sold my Helfords et Al by the million over the last decade and one
>> of my phones running a satnav app in the same sort of clamp
>>
I suspect many would use the communication and other functions of the phone. Having said that most of those functions are built into my car controlled with the built in tablet computer gadget.
Last edited by: Old Navy on Sun 16 Apr 17 at 08:24
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>> I suspect many would use the communication and other functions of the phone.
But if they do not, would it still be an offence to use the 'phone solely for navigational purposes?
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I'm pretty sure they are OK to use but you aren't allowed to fiddle with them while on the move. Happy to be proved wrong though (well, except I use one)
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>> I'm pretty sure they are OK to use but you aren't allowed to fiddle with
>> them while on the move. Happy to be proved wrong though (well, except I use
>> one)
>>
But it's OK to fiddle with a satnav ?
It seems to me that the strict distinctions between all kinds of electronic gadgetry is rapidly becoming blurred. If a TV can become a PC, a phone a satnav, how long before a satnav becomes a cordless or mobile phone you can take anywhere or place on its rest in the car?
If watching a satnav picture of an approaching junction is not distracting, what's the difference from scrolling along streetview on your phone?
We seem to be moving simultaneously in two different directions with incompatible objectives:
1) Anything goes. It is the driver's responsibility to manage all the devices at his disposal, and control the car as well.
2) Anything the driver does other than driving is a distraction. All devices and entertainment should be banned, and passengers forbidden from speaking other than giving vital directions.
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>> >> I suspect many would use the communication and other functions of the phone.
>>
>> But if they do not, would it still be an offence to use the 'phone
>> solely for navigational purposes?
Only if hand held.
You'd have to find the statute to argue the case but this is from the government website:
Using mobile phones when driving
It’s illegal to use your phone while driving or riding a motorcycle unless you have hands-free access, such as:
- a bluetooth headset
- voice command
- a dashboard holder
The law still applies to you if you’re:
- stopped at traffic lights
- queuing in traffic
- supervising a learner driver
Hands-free
If you use your phone hands-free, you must stay in full control of your vehicle at all times.
The police can stop you if they think you’re not in control because you’re distracted and you can be prosecuted.
When you can use a hand-held phone
You can use a hand-held phone if either of these apply:
- you’re safely parked
- you need to call 999 or 112 in an emergency and it’s unsafe or impractical to stop
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The problem night be enforcement, how does Mr Policeman on the spot clutching a big fine and a six points ticket prove what it was being used for? The law is too weak, either allow unrestricted use or ban any use in a car.
There is always the not in control back up but a smaller penalty?
Last edited by: Old Navy on Sun 16 Apr 17 at 09:07
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>> either allow unrestricted use or ban any use in a car.
I would think that using my mobile to navigate is far less of a distraction to me than your satnav is to you. That is because the screen of my 'phone is quite small, so it used solely for its verbal directions and it is not located anywhere near the windscreen.
Perhaps you mean that satnavs should be banned.
;-)
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>>That is because the screen of my
>> 'phone is quite small, so it used solely for its verbal directions and it is
>> not located anywhere near the windscreen.
>>
That is a good description of my satnav, but it does "ping" when approaching any type of enforcement camera whether a route is programmed or not. :-)
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>> That is a good description of my satnav, but it does "ping" when approaching any
>> type of enforcement camera whether a route is programmed or not. :-)
Mine tells me the distance, type and speed limit of enforcement cameras, but only if I am exceeding the speed limit. It also tell me what my average speed is through a SPECS zone,
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>> Mine tells me the distance, type and speed limit of enforcement cameras, but only if
>> I am exceeding the speed limit. It also tell me what my average speed is
>> through a SPECS zone,
>>
What make / model do you have, Zero? Would you recommend it?
I'm under a bit of wifely pressure to finally install one in the old barge.
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I now use my mobile phone. Sat nav is catered for by Google maps, who's live traffic rerouting can not be bettered by any other system. With the facility now to download offline routes and maps, and send routes to your phone from your home PC, I have now dumped dedicated Sat Nav devices.
For speed cameras I use PocketGPSWorld* Camera Alert. Integrates perfectly with Google Maps.
*Been using them for about 10 years, used to download their camera POI's onto TomTom.
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>> Mine tells me the distance, type and speed limit of enforcement cameras, but only if
>> I am exceeding the speed limit. It also tell me what my average speed is
>> through a SPECS zone,
>>
Don't they all?
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You could also install an app on a smartphone to do the same, e.g. CamerAlert from PocketGPSWorld.com. You need to pay for the database updates. But they are probably better than the TomTom ones.
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>> You could also install an app on a smartphone to do the same, e.g. CamerAlert
>> from PocketGPSWorld.com. You need to pay for the database updates. But they are probably better
>> than the TomTom ones.
>>
People who are into the phone sat nav app scene, I am not one of them, seem to think highly of Waze.
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I ain't referring to a sat nav app - I was referring to an app that warns you of speed cameras.
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New driving test.04 Dec 2017 - Fullchat
