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The jury have given the court usher a question to ask the judge and the jury has gone back into court to hear the answer? If so, it must have been something simple as it only took 3 minutes before the court was adjourned for the day.
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I know the origins of why, but surely this thread should get its own title and not the Glasgow Bin Lorry?
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I was just thinking the same. Leave it with me
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>> I was just thinking the same. Leave it with me
Thanks, I found it quite confusing for a while!
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Two men have been found guilty after a tipper truck crashed in Bath killing four people, including a 4-year-old girl.
Truck owner Matthew Gordon, 30, and mechanic Peter Wood, 55, were found guilty of four counts of manslaughter following the crash last year.
The driver of the truck, Phillip Potter, 20, has been cleared of dangerous and careless driving.
Gordon and Wood will be sentenced on 27 January.
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Matthew Gordon, the owner of the lorry which caused the devastation on Lansdown Lane when its brakes failed in February last year, and Peter Wood, the mechanic employed by Grittenham Haulage were convicted of four counts of manslaughter as a result of gross negligence after a 23 day trial at Bristol Crown Court.
The driver of the tipper lorry involved in the tragedy, Phillip Potter, has been found not guilty of all the charges he faced.
Mr Justice Brian Langstaff has denied bail for Gordon and Wood on the basis that "the offences of which they have been convicted will inevitably attract significantly lengthy custodial terms". Gordon and Wood willl remain in custody until sentencing.
www.bathchronicle.co.uk/breaking-two-guilty-of-manslaughter-of-bath-4-year-old-mitzi-steady-but-driver-found-not-guilty/story-30003464-detail/story.html#2fV1XMiiKUrQsWEs.99
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Thanks Tigger and Henry!
Us women have jobs to do in the daytime and don't get to look until they're all done so you managed to beat me to it;)
I haven't read it yet but I would say it's absolutely the correct decision.
Pat
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>> Thanks Tigger and Henry!
>>
>> Us women have jobs to do in the daytime and don't get to look until
>> they're all done so you managed to beat me to it;)
>>
>> I haven't read it yet but I would say it's absolutely the correct decision.
>>
>> Pat
>>
I agree. I train 18 and 19 year olds in my work, and appreciate the pressure that the young driver must have been under. Here's the story from his perspective:
www.bathchronicle.co.uk/bath-tipper-trial-lorry-driver-found-not-guilty-in-relation-to-deaths-and-serious-injuries/story-30003561-detail/story.html
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I think it's the right result/outcome too. The young driver might not have known the state of the brakes and after securing a job would feel unable to question the owner. After all, you might assume the owner was happy with the lorry because he allowed someone to drive it.
The young driver has already been 'punished' enough with what he's gone through too. What an ordeal and he'll always know he played a part in these deaths.
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"He challenged Gordon when his boss left to continue their journey after a shorter break than required that day, but followed him anyway."
"Witnesses reported seeing a man, later identified as Gordon, speak to Potter immediately after the crash. After initially lying about it, Potter later admitted to police that a warning light for the lorry's anti-brake lock system (ABS) had been on for each of the six days that he had driven the tipper since he started working at Grittenham Haulage."
As a teenager, I remember being ordered to over-ride an electrical safety system - something I'd never think about doing now - and if I overheard anyone else giving such an order I'd be getting them fired.
Good that justice prevailed. The young driver will have to deal with his part in this tragedy, but the real blame has rested where it should.
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Pat,
Do not give up the day ( and night) job we need you folks.
I just cut n pasted ex BBC .
Report there has now now fattened up.
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-38404875
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That explains a lot more Henry but I do hope Bromp can get the full trial transcript thingy for me.
I don't think the driver will ever set foot in a lorry again, he will never be able to forget that.
Now, back to trying to be domesticated and get ready for Christmas....I'm really out of my comfort zone here.
It's times like this I curse my Mum, who was born in 1903 and taught me that the house has to be spring cleaned, all ironing and washing done, veg prepared, sheets changed and I had to settle for perfection because anything less was a cop out!
We have family for breakfast but we're on our own for Xmas lunch so why do I still here her voice in my head?
Pat
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Shades of Tebay come to mind for me, brakes tampered with or left non-maintained. I think the convicted pair in that case got serious bird.
What about the Bath two....10yrs, give or take ?
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About 8 years I reckon. Max for manslaughter is life.
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>> That explains a lot more Henry but I do hope Bromp can get the full
>> trial transcript thingy for me.
I don't think the full transcript will be available except possibly by paying for it via the shorthand writers. The Judge's remarks on sentencing should appear though and will be a reasonable precis of the proceedings.
>> I don't think the driver will ever set foot in a lorry again, he will
>> never be able to forget that.
Heard him on the radio this afternoon. He came over as articulate and convincing in his remarks about the victims and their families and effect on him personally.
Which is probably why he convinced the jury to acquit.
I hope his legal costs are covered in full but the realist in me says he's in debt for life.
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I don't think the driver should have got off.
I've refused to take a vehicle several times because I thought it wasn't safe to do so, stood my ground and probably got black marks because of it. I was thinking as much for my own safety, primarily.
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Accidents happen and when they do it can be devastating to the injured, killed, family and many more, but it is an accident.
This wasn't an accident, it was cost cutting and if the truck had been maintained properly the men and child would still be alive. I think the sentence will be harsh to indicate how unacceptable it is to not maintain vehicles; 15 years?
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>> I don't think the driver should have got off.
>>
>> I've refused to take a vehicle several times because I thought it wasn't safe to do so,
Maybe he's not as mechanically minded as you though.
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>> I don't think the driver should have got off.
>>
>> I've refused to take a vehicle several times because I thought it wasn't safe to
>> do so, stood my ground and probably got black marks because of it. I was
>> thinking as much for my own safety, primarily.
>>
Would you have been so confident at 19, two weeks into a new job when you were keen to impress your new boss?
I try to instill that right way into my trainees but it takes a while to build.
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Absolutely right Tigger.
It certainly does take a long while to build and some never gain that amount of confidence.
Pat
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Just finished up a job teaching new trainees where a part of it was, when they find something wrong they have to flag it up and in the correct way. The biggest problem or challenge isn't them, it's the culture of those they are reporting it to. They need to be open and have a safety mentality where issues aren't an irritant but something that needs rectifying.
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So glad it's not only me who finds that sooty, my lads used to get intimidated and given 'bad' work to do if they 'caused a fuss'
Thankfully a new face on the firm, and the original one being moved sideways has put an end to that.
Now they face being disciplined if they don't report things.
....and it's a so much nicer place to work too.
Pat
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I used to cause a fuss at work if I didn't agree with some of the practises.
You are soon classed a troublemaker,the brown noses move on quick.
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>>I hope his legal costs are covered in full but the realist in me says he's in debt for life.
Not a good plan but a plan is to go bankrupt and start again. At 19 he can't have too many assets!
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They interviewed the driver on the local news. Very mature and came across as being far older than his 20 years
Not sure if it was covered in the case but he grew up on a farm operating machinery from a young age so probably had more experience than he may have been given credit for.
Also interviewed his Mum who was visibly upset by the whole thing and has planted trees on the family farm in memory of those killed
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>>he grew up on a farm operating machinery from a young age so probably had more experience than he may have been given credit for.
Worst drivers in Christendom in my experience of living in a farming area for over 20 years.
>>his Mum who was visibly upset by the whole thing and has planted trees on the family farm in memory of those killed
Fat lot of good that will do them now.
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>> Worst drivers in Christendom in my experience of living in a farming area for over 20 years.
>>
Concur.
Merry thingy btw.
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They both made it onto the national radio news. They both spoke well given the horrendous outcome of the crash/
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Thanks for posting that Mikey, I hadn't heard that.
Nice to know he spoke well about it.
Pat
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This page has videos of various interviews relevant to the case:
www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-england-bristol-38394031
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Another example of an employer being up in court for breach of H&S, this time landing himself with a 2 year jail sentence.
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-38532296
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There was a crane company that had erected one near Worthing in West Sussex.
One of the workers had an "episode" and undid the bolts holding the crane to the ground. Two workers still on the crane died.
The fine was £50k but couldn't really see how the company could have prevented the worker "going mad".
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That would be because firms now have a responsibility to keep a check on their employees health and suitability for the job they are doing.
It's the reason we've had to introduce 'back to work' interviews' after a period of sickmess and ask for doctors reports to back up the employees claims they are fit.
To an extent, I think it's madness but I can also see the position firms are in and they have to cover their backs.
Pat
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For the last 30 years of my working life, return to work interviews have been the norm after any sickness absence?
Assumed all workplaces would have been the same!
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>> For the last 30 years of my working life, return to work interviews have been
>> the norm after any sickness absence?
>> Assumed all workplaces would have been the same!
>>
I can't remember the last time I had an appraisal! A return to work interview would be such a shock that I would have a heart attack!
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>> I can't remember the last time I had an appraisal!
>> A return to work interview would be such a shock that I would have a heart attack!
>>
Never had one.
I used to on the odd occasion have a couple of days off with a cold.
I would frequently get a violent cough with it and it was that which I considered so awful as
to not impose it on the open plan office.
If I had got challenged then next time I will not stay at home and await staff complaints!.
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> I can't remember the last time I had an appraisal! A return to work interview
>> would be such a shock that I would have a heart attack!
>>
Never had a return to work interview after an illness. Always had an assessment/appraisal, mandatory to receive one. In fact if you don't its a black mark against your boss and you can raise a complaint about it.
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>> Never had a return to work interview after an illness.
In the Civil Service good managers always did them, even if only as an informal chat round the teapoint.
From nineties on they were mandated. Initially just good practice, opportunity to check staff member was fully recovered and to update them on events/changes while they were off. Took anything from 4 minutes to 40 depending whether sickness was a cold or something more serious.
By the time I retired they'd acquired a harder edge. Absence management policies meant anyone with more days/spells than target was under the spotlight and liable to be referred to Occupational Health. Dismissal for being unable to give satisfactory service was a likely follow on for people with ongoing conditions.
With a sympathetic manager one could could dodge the bullet, at least in the short term. Those working for 'target chasers' had a very hard time.
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>> >> Never had a return to work interview after an illness.
>>
>> In the Civil Service good managers always did them, even if only as an informal> chat round the teapot.
I never felt i was missing out or that the management was poor. Just something that I've not come across before.
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Our HR dept started asking for return to work interviews a few years ago. Obviously we just ignore them, as with most things they try to make it us do, but recently I happened to walk by my boss after a few days sickness. He said "oh hello, you ok?" And I said " yes thanks" and we moved on. So I guess that was my interview.
I find HR don't respond well to "you tell me why this needs to happen and I'll do it". They tried "insurance" once so I looked up the policy and found it not to be anything to do with it. HR withdrew their request.
I guess I've been lucky.
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>>I find HR don't respond well to "you tell me why this needs to happen and I'll do it". They tried "insurance" once so I looked up the policy and found it not to be anything to do with it. HR withdrew their request.
Almost certainly a liability / a*** protecting decision particularly in the case of using machinery in the workplace. Accident at work + employee not feeling well = claim. You know how it is these days, people sue for tripping over a paperclip.
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Its because managers are s***.
If managers were any b***** good you could say " Keep an eye on people after they've been sick and make sure there's no problem".
But because they're generally so awful a dictatorial rule is made. Doesn't solve anything, but its far easier to have a dumb-a*** rule than it is to get decent managers.
Same reason consultancies and project managers use methodologies.
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>>Its because managers are s***. <<
Which speaks a lot about the person above the manager who has interviewed and carefully selected them for the position of Manager.
>>you could say " Keep an eye on people after they've been sick and make sure there's no problem".
<<
You could, but it wouldn't produce a recorded paper trail of the care taken to be used in the companies defence........
The Bath tipper trial evidence is a case in point.
Pat
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>> For the last 30 years of my working life, return to work interviews have been
>> the norm after any sickness absence?
>> Assumed all workplaces would have been the same!
I was diagnosed as having German measles by my GP. I worked in an environment where there were lots of women around, so was signed off. Got to work painting the outside of my house, when the boss turned up!
Had an insect bite on my ankle that caused my foot to swell so I couldn't get a shoe on. Signed myself off, to much derision from colleagues. Few weeks later got another on my arm that caused it to swell so much I had to roll up my sleeve to stop it from hurting - "believe you now" was heard.
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>> I was diagnosed as having German measles by my GP. I worked in an environment
>> where there were lots of women around, so was signed off.
>>
Many years ago SWMBO got a drug reaction and the rash looked like GM
Doc said have a week off because if you turn up in the office, full of women, they will never believe the rash is harmless.
Not such a good ending... she did not paint the house.
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Sentencing just in, 7 and 5 years
Sounds light to me
Last edited by: VxFan on Fri 27 Jan 17 at 16:52
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Sentencing for what?
Last edited by: VxFan on Fri 27 Jan 17 at 16:52
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He's referring the Bath tipper accident.
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-38774080
I've edited Mikey's header and moved it to the correct place in the thread
Last edited by: VxFan on Fri 27 Jan 17 at 16:52
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Caught this on the way home last night.
www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b08gxx7h
As usual radio nails in a way that TV finds it hard to do these days.
Listen out to some politician type Chief Executive from DVSA dodging questions, guy by the name of Gareth Llewellyn....who the hell do they think pays them to sort crap like this out ?
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Thanks for that RP, as always everyone passing the buck.
Pat
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Bath tipper accident, more charges. - Pat
