Motoring Discussion > Leaving engine running whilst car is empty Legal Questions
Thread Author: TheManWithNoName Replies: 61
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 Thu 8 Dec 16 12:43 
 Leaving engine running whilst car is empty - TheManWithNoName
Aside from the obvious risk of theft, is it illegal to leave your car running whilst you're scraping the outside and your vehicle is on a private drive or road?

I heard (from an ex traffic copper) that any unattended vehicle can reward you with 3 points on your license even if its sitting on your drive. He added that any driveway or private road which abuts to a public highway is still subject to traffic law.

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 Thu 8 Dec 16 13:49 
 Leaving engine running whilst car is empty - Old Navy
Think supermarket car park, private land but traffic law applies.
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 Thu 8 Dec 16 14:03 
 Leaving engine running whilst car is empty - CGNorwich
A car park is specifically not a road for the purposes of the Road Traffic Act. It may or may not be a Way and subject to the Act. A private driveway is not a road.
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 Thu 8 Dec 16 14:06 
 Leaving engine running whilst car is empty - Old Navy
Do you think that you can't be charged with drink driving or no insurance, causing death by dangerous driving etc, in a car park?
Last edited by: Old Navy on Thu 8 Dec 16 at 14:09
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 Thu 8 Dec 16 14:21 
 Leaving engine running whilst car is empty - spamcan61
>> Do you think that you can't be charged with drink driving or no insurance, causing
>> death by dangerous driving etc, in a car park?
>>

Wasn't this why the law was changed a few years back, to define private land where the public has access (presumably car parks but maybe not driveways...) as the public highway in this context?
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 Thu 8 Dec 16 14:41 
 Leaving engine running whilst car is empty - CGNorwich
"Do you think that you can't be charged with drink driving or no insurance, causing death by dangerous driving etc, in a car park?"

You can cetainly be charged in a car park. You can be charged anywhere.

The question you pose is of course are you comitting an offence by say driving over the limit in a car park?

As I said in my original post a car park is definitley not a road under the law so it is not necessarily de facto an offence.

If the car park is private, on my land say, and the public do not have access I can be as drunk as I like. If I killed someone in the process I might be charged with manslaughter but not death by dangerous driving.

If the public do have access to the car park it might be classified as a a Way and the Road Traffic Act would apply.
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 Thu 8 Dec 16 14:10 
 Leaving engine running whilst car is empty - devonite
Can't see a problem if you are actually scraping the screens with the engine running,....think it applies to these folks that start the car on the drive and then leave it running whilst they go and have their breakfast! Once had a neighbor that did this every morning at 06.30 during the week, so one Day I recorded it, and played it back to him from the stereo in the back bedroom at the same time one Sunday morning, (his day off) he complained I remember, but after a few brief words he didn't do it again! ;-)
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 Thu 8 Dec 16 14:24 
 Leaving engine running whilst car is empty - Old Navy
This does not differentiate between locations.

www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1986/1078/regulation/98/made
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 Thu 8 Dec 16 14:44 
 Leaving engine running whilst car is empty - mikeyb
Interesting in that I was reading about a lady complaining about an abandoned car in the communal carpark to her flats.

Police / council have refused to get involved as its not on the highway despite no tax / MOT / Insurance
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 Thu 8 Dec 16 20:02 
 Leaving engine running whilst car is empty - The Melting Snowman
I wouldn't worry about it. Police don't have the resources to deal with real crime, they aren't going to be bothered if someone has left their engine running.

The greater risk is probably someone stealing it and then the insurance claim being bounced.
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 Thu 8 Dec 16 21:48 
 Leaving engine running whilst car is empty - Bill Payer
>> Interesting in that I was reading about a lady complaining about an abandoned car in
>> the communal carpark to her flats.
>>
>> Police / council have refused to get involved as its not on the highway despite
>> no tax / MOT / Insurance
>>

DVLA will clamp it though for no tax.
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 Fri 9 Dec 16 10:05 
 Leaving engine running whilst car is empty - Haywain
These days, I just don't get out of the car and shut the door when the keys are in the ignition irrespective of whether or not the engine is running........

A couple of years ago whilst visiting a farmer re my work, I left my Mondeo on the drive outside the farmyard and knocked on the door. I had left the keys in the ignition, though the engine wasn't running - this was in the middle of nowhere. The farmer wasn't at home so I returned to the car and went to open the door; my cold, wet fingers slipped from under the door handle and it thwacked back whereupon the central locking somehow kicked in and I was locked out of the car - with the keys on the inside.

I rang my wife for a rescue with the spare keys, but she was at work and couldn't leave for another couple of hours; I struggled to describe my location to her, and this wasn't easy as my OS maps were still in the car. Meanwhile, the farmer arrived back at the ranch and I could only apologise for blocking his driveway with my dead Mondeo. Good job he had a sense of humour.
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 Fri 9 Dec 16 10:11 
 Leaving engine running whilst car is empty - Manatee
Same here, unless the spare key is handy e.g at home. I havent actually locked myself out, but I have sen my car lock itself when I didn't expect it.

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 Fri 9 Dec 16 10:52 
 Leaving engine running whilst car is empty - Roger.
Paranoia here - I always lock our old heap when going to a petrol station pay desk, even if the car is in sight.
Ditto in a supermarket car park when putting a trolley back in its sot.
Last edited by: Roger. on Fri 9 Dec 16 at 10:52
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 Fri 9 Dec 16 11:06 
 Leaving engine running whilst car is empty - DP
Same as Roger. I always lock the car when I pay for fuel or leave it unattended even for a moment. With remote locking it's not exactly a chore to do.

A friend of ours left her 6 month old Golf (company car) running when she jumped out to post a letter a few years ago. A chancer walking past jumped in the car and drove it away. The car was recovered a few days later completely burnt out in a local field. The insurance wouldn't pay out, and she faced a disciplinary process at work and a hefty charge from her employer. House keys, purse and all manner of other personal belongings lost as well. It's just not worth the risk.
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 Fri 9 Dec 16 11:24 
 Leaving engine running whilst car is empty - legacylad
The only time I leave my car unlocked is when it is in my detached garage. And the garage alarm is set when I retire to beddies.
When you have lived in less than salubrious surroundings old habits die hard
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 Fri 9 Dec 16 11:35 
 Leaving engine running whilst car is empty - Dog
I'm always leaving the keys in my car, even with the injun running when I'm at say the recycling centre but,
who'd wanna purloin a 10 year-old Scoobie Fos automatic??
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 Fri 9 Dec 16 11:39 
 Leaving engine running whilst car is empty - legacylad
They'll nick anything in Bradford & Keighley. You'd be surprised what the 14year olds get up to.
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 Fri 9 Dec 16 11:59 
 Leaving engine running whilst car is empty - Dog
>> You'd be surprised what the 14year olds get up to.

Would I?

8-}
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 Fri 9 Dec 16 12:16 
 Leaving engine running whilst car is empty - legacylad
Probably not, which is a sad reflection of the times we live in. When I was that age, a half pint of lager and a snog was as exciting as it got, although now living in a pleasant rural area crime amongst the local kids is minimal ( unless they get away with most of it).
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 Fri 9 Dec 16 13:31 
 Leaving engine running whilst car is empty - Dog
The only crime I've seen in the 5.5 years I've lived 'up here' is a bit of fly tipping now and again.

I had a miss-spent yoof up until I was about 15, spent my 13th birthday in a remand centre :(

The thing that really, really bothers me about the 21st century, is the amount of mental health problems among young children. I don't recall any of that going on in the '60's when I was, um, growing up.

A lot of it is due to drug use of course - I used drugs in my early teens, but never touched brown or white powder,
or the mighty-strong marijuana they can get hold of today.

We have these 'ere mental health phone ins on BBC Radio Cornwall ... woman phoned in yesterday, reckons she's been a heroin addict since she was 18 ... she's now 38!!!
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 Fri 9 Dec 16 14:32 
 Leaving engine running whilst car is empty - legacylad
Strange coincidence you should mention the mental health issues amongst young people... I was chatting to someone in the past few days who told me the extent of the problem locally. I was amazed.
Fortunately, the only mental health issues I had in my teens was the worry of how badly I would get hurt playing school rugby. After a few serious thumpings I chickened out of playing hooker and changed to playing stand off.
Im sure we had issues, but cheap cider, a few cigs and a snog resolved them, although now I remember it, I had a small bald patch on the back of my head where I pulled my hair out involuntarily in my early teens. That was down to always coming in the bottom 10% of my class, ( there were lots of bright sparks at my Grammer Skool) and once I accepted that fact ( aim low, expect nothing) I got over it.
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 Fri 9 Dec 16 15:37 
 Leaving engine running whilst car is empty - Dog
Funny ole life though, when you think back on it (life's rich tapestry)

If my father hadn't died when I was 9, my mother would have probably remained in the council flat in Bermondsey, instead of moving to Camberwell (sowf lunden), which was a nice area at that time..
All of my friends? in Bermondsey were into skullduggery in one way or another, so that would likely have been my life.
I would probably be dead by now anyway, as two of my then friends? are.
I live in a detached 3 bed granite-under-slate cottage now, built in 1792 - a far cry from that 4th floor pre-war council flat.

How I managed that, gawd above only knows :)
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 Fri 9 Dec 16 15:40 
 Leaving engine running whilst car is empty - smokie
www.youtube.com/watch?v=jgumG8abES0
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 Fri 9 Dec 16 16:39 
 Leaving engine running whilst car is empty - Dog
My kinda music too - 12 bar ;)
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 Fri 9 Dec 16 16:45 
 Leaving engine running whilst car is empty - Cliff Pope
If you need to stop to open a gate, pass through, then stop and shut the gate, does anyone seriously turn the engine off and remove the keys twice whilst out of the vehicle?

Unattended surely means not being in attendance. I read somewhere its use in road traffic parlance derives from traction engines, where the "engineer" was obliged to be in attendance to watch steam pressure, although always nearby carrying out operations using power take-off pulleys to drive other machinery.
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 Fri 9 Dec 16 16:55 
 Leaving engine running whilst car is empty - Dutchie
It certainly is Dog live is full of surprises.We lived in flats in Rotterdam which I didn't like.The old man was away at sea for months so you can imagine it wasn't easy for my mother bringing up three kids.

Me being still alive is more luck than brains the situations I've been in.>:)
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 Fri 9 Dec 16 17:09 
 Leaving engine running whilst car is empty - Dog
My ole mum had 5 kids Dutchie ... plus me :o)

>>Me being still alive is more luck than brains the situations I've been in.>:)

Same here guvnor, same here ;-)

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 Fri 9 Dec 16 17:32 
 Leaving engine running whilst car is empty - Boxsterboy
Who scrapes the outside of their car on a frosty morning?

A 4-pint milk carton with hot (not boiling!) water poured over the windows is soo much quicker and easier.
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      1  
 Fri 9 Dec 16 17:48 
 Leaving engine running whilst car is empty - Pat
I just sit in the heated driving seat, switch on the heated front screen and have a ciggy:)

Pat
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 Fri 9 Dec 16 18:38 
 Leaving engine running whilst car is empty - zippy
Don't forget the heated steering wheel!
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 Fri 9 Dec 16 22:15 
 Leaving engine running whilst car is empty - legacylad
Don't any of you plebs have garages?
Sheesh
My exex and her partner have a nice double detached garage. It's full of old spare TVs ( CRTs) spare washers, mowers, bikes, and a massive amount of what I consider junk. The amount of time they waste deicing cars on a winters morning over the years must amount to weeks.
Yours truly has a heated screen in the diseasal Focus.
Not that I really need it as my garage is used for its intended purpose. A bit like having a bed and kipping on the floor in the ensuite if you ask me.
I would happily swap the heated screen for heated seats, although I've just invested a tenner in an Aldi heated seat cushion thingy.
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 Fri 9 Dec 16 22:23 
 Leaving engine running whilst car is empty - sooty123
>> Don't any of you plebs have garages?
>> Sheesh


Nope, it's out on the street for me.
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 Fri 9 Dec 16 22:26 
 Leaving engine running whilst car is empty - CGNorwich
Ice on the car? You all must be getting up too early.
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      1  
 Fri 9 Dec 16 22:33 
 Leaving engine running whilst car is empty - legacylad
Thanks CGN.
My second laugh today. Sadly in short supply at the moment.
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 Fri 9 Dec 16 22:33 
 Leaving engine running whilst car is empty - sooty123
>> Ice on the car? You all must be getting up too early.
>>

We aren't all retired ;)
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      1  
 Fri 9 Dec 16 19:30 
 Leaving engine running whilst car is empty - Dog
Don't see much frost down 'ere but, if and when the car is white, I bung a cheap Wilko fan heater in the car which quickly clears all the windows and makes the car all nice & snugly.

Learnt that one from knob head :)
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 Fri 9 Dec 16 23:03 
 Leaving engine running whilst car is empty - Bromptonaut
>> A 4-pint milk carton with hot (not boiling!) water poured over the windows is soo
>> much quicker and easier.

Agree. Here it's a watering can for houseplants filled with warm water. As well as shifting frost it warms the inside of glass enough to stop it steaming up when breathing driver gets in.

Worked in London and for many years and at peak of winter expected car to be frozen when I got to home station

Rinsed out my breakfast coffee flask and filled it with hot water from tea urn at work. Just right temperature to defrost/demist when I got back to car.
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 Sun 11 Dec 16 19:45 
 Leaving engine running whilst car is empty - The Melting Snowman
>> Here it's a watering can for houseplants filled with warm water. As well as shifting frost it warms the inside of glass enough to stop it steaming up when breathing driver gets in.

Exactly what I do. The only time I don't do that is if it's really cold (well below freezing), in which case I put a fan heater on an extension lead in the car for fifteen minutes.

>>Rinsed out my breakfast coffee flask and filled it with hot water from tea urn at work.

Don't tell the Daily Mail. Imaging the headline: "Civil Servant uses public resources for private benefit"

:-)

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      1  
 Sat 10 Dec 16 09:38 
 Leaving engine running whilst car is empty - Clk Sec
>> A 4-pint milk carton with hot (not boiling!) water poured over the windows is soo
>> much quicker and easier.
>>

Then you're friendly postman slips and breaks a leg...
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 Sat 10 Dec 16 10:23 
 Leaving engine running whilst car is empty - Roger.
.....and your windscreen cracks......
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 Sat 10 Dec 16 10:51 
 Leaving engine running whilst car is empty - henry k
>> .....and your windscreen cracks......
>>
I treat this as an urban myth.
A Google search finds lots of folks saying hot water will crack your windscreen but that seems to be the limit of it.
I would expect Youtube to be awash with examples :-)

www.speedyglass.com/2011/11/does-hot-water-on-a-frozen-windshield-cause-shattering/

I have used warm/hot water on the glass for decades with no obvious bad results.
I find the simple trigger gun of deicer is best for the job.
It is easier to direct the deicer fluid than a spray can.
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 Sat 10 Dec 16 11:07 
 Leaving engine running whilst car is empty - sooty123
I use neat screenwash from a bottle. I sometimes leave the car in the middle of nowhere so access to hot water isn't always available. Never had any issues with it.
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 Mon 12 Dec 16 12:16 
 Leaving engine running whilst car is empty - Shiny
>> >> .....and your windscreen cracks......
>> >>
>> I treat this as an urban myth.


www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwkvuyY6CKY
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 Mon 12 Dec 16 12:33 
 Leaving engine running whilst car is empty - henry k
www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwkvuyY6CKY

OK. A single exception found. Myth Busted!

One down but where are all the vast number of others that have suffered ?

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 Tue 13 Dec 16 16:01 
 Leaving engine running whilst car is empty - Cliff Pope
>>
>>
>> One down but where are all the vast number of others that have suffered ?


I watched a friend pour a kettleful of recently-boiled water over his windscreen in 1984, and it immediately shattered.

The lack of evidence is because no one ever does it now. Why don't you try it and disprove the myth?
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 Tue 13 Dec 16 16:06 
 Leaving engine running whilst car is empty - commerdriver
>> I watched a friend pour a kettleful of recently-boiled water over his windscreen in 1984,
>> and it immediately shattered.
>>
Good chance in 1984 the windscreen was zone toughened rather than laminated, maybe therein lies the difference and the myth
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      1  
 Tue 13 Dec 16 16:30 
 Leaving engine running whilst car is empty - Bromptonaut
>> Good chance in 1984 the windscreen was zone toughened rather than laminated, maybe therein lies
>> the difference and the myth

That was my thought too. Still wouldn't use near boiling water though. Hand hot, say 40 degrees, is highest I'd go. Needs to be warm enough to avoid immediate refreezing before wiper can be operated and also to raise internal glass temp sufficiently to stop condensation.
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 Tue 13 Dec 16 18:03 
 Leaving engine running whilst car is empty - The Melting Snowman
Warmish / tepid water is quite adequate for the task. I have never had a cracked windscreen, even on non-laminated screens of years ago.

I suspect in cases where the screen has cracked then it's either been due to operator stupidity (near boiling is just daft) or the screen has some damage to start with.

As with many things in life, some common sense is required. Which I guess is where the problem stems from.
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 Tue 13 Dec 16 18:16 
 Leaving engine running whilst car is empty - rtj70
A small crack/chip and a screen can fail without hot water. My last car had a chip/crack from something falling on the windscreen when parked up. The next morning, probably because of thermal expansion/contraction the crack was much longer. New windscreen was needed.

The screen was a little annoying for a while because there was a fine scratch caused by something getting between wiper and screen.... so the crack did me a favour :-)
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 Mon 12 Dec 16 12:55 
 Leaving engine running whilst car is empty - VxFan
>> A 4-pint milk carton with hot (not boiling!) water poured over the windows is soo
>> much quicker and easier.

Cold water, or even mildly tepid is better as it doesn't shock the window and potentially cause it to crack.
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 Fri 9 Dec 16 21:55 
 Leaving engine running whilst car is empty - slowdown avenue
i had the police knock on my door, when i had left the engine running, got a small lecture and off they went. it was the day i was taking the car in for the scrappage scheme, and the old astra wouldn't run right till it had warmed up, so any body stealing it wouldn't have got far. my biggest worry was i had swapped all the tyres over to rubbish stuff , and taken anything else off that i could. police only there when you don't want them
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 Fri 9 Dec 16 22:26 
 Leaving engine running whilst car is empty - Ted

My garage is big but is home to much more interesting stuff than modern cars. A local girl posted that she had just bought her first motorbike and was asking for details of a builder to fit a ground anchor as someone had tried to nick it on the first day.

I said if she wanted to bring it round, she could store it snuggled up to my Honda and Velocette until she was sorted..........Never got a reply !
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 Sat 10 Dec 16 10:20 
 Leaving engine running whilst car is empty - legacylad
Ted, I thought you were going to tell us that you had converted it into an S & M Playbarn
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 Sat 10 Dec 16 11:11 
 Leaving engine running whilst car is empty - MD
If the public have access to the ground then traffic laws apply.
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 Sat 10 Dec 16 13:05 
 Leaving engine running whilst car is empty - Ted

That's a thought,Leggy....but I don't model the Shropshire & Montgomeryshire Railway Company !
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 Sat 10 Dec 16 14:04 
 Leaving engine running whilst car is empty - Fullchat
Traffic offences generally have two words in them which define where the offence can be committede - 'road' and 'public place'. Some have 'road' only eg Driving Licence offences and some have 'road and public place' eg Insurance and Accident legislation. Accident legislation only used to have 'road'. 'Public place' was added later. So now Careless Driving and Failing to Stop/Report can be dealt with in a wider range of places where these incidents occur.
Masses of stated cases round these areas. Supermarket car parks are deemed 'public places' but depending on the overall layout the roads running between all the parking spaces could be defined as a 'road'.
Anyway 'Quitting' - leaving your car with the engine running can only be committed on a 'road' and certainly not your driveway. That tends to be more about crime prevention if a Bobby speaks to you about it.
I did once move a car that had been left with the engine running for quite some time. Park it and remove the keys and left a note on the windscreen saying the keys could be collected at the nearby nick. Lesson learned :)
Last edited by: Fullchat on Sat 10 Dec 16 at 14:05
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 Sat 10 Dec 16 16:10 
 Leaving engine running whilst car is empty - Manatee
Thanks FC.

I might forget again but it's good to know:)
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 Mon 12 Dec 16 12:06 
 Leaving engine running whilst car is empty - Ambo
Legal considerations apart, isn't it best to start a car and drive off at once for the fastest warm-up and lowest wear and emissions?
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 Mon 12 Dec 16 14:07 
 Leaving engine running whilst car is empty - Duncan
>> Legal considerations apart, isn't it best to start a car and drive off at once
>> for the fastest warm-up and lowest wear and emissions?
>>

Yeah but,

We can't see out of the windows!
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 Mon 12 Dec 16 14:12 
 Leaving engine running whilst car is empty - Crankcase
What a strange idea in the first place. Surely you either tell the car the night before to be warm for you at 7 am, or if you've forgotten to do that, press a button in the app from the warmth of your bed when you wake up, or your office at 4:30pm?

Or I suppose you could fill in the weekly calendar on a weekend with your comings and goings, and it will be warm and defrosted for you each day as you get in?

Oh wait, you're all talking about some sort of primitive things driven by small explosions. I see.

:)





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 Mon 12 Dec 16 14:47 
 Leaving engine running whilst car is empty - Fullchat
Few years ago I was running around in a my Mothers Rover. It was a really hot day and a got into a sweltering car. I thought to myself that the heat could potentially expose a flaw in the windscreen. Not that there was a flaw.
Guess what. Next day the screen was cracked. Kiss of death or what?? :((
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