Just come across this news link stating that the Bundesrat, the federal council of all 16 German states, has passed a resolution to only permit zero-emission vehicles on EU roads by 2030 and it could prove to be EU wide:
tinyurl.com/haqnzm7
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Meanwhile in the real world.......
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>> Meanwhile in the real world.......
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Back at the turn of the twentieth century most of the population felt much the same about horse drawn vehicles. They could not conceive of transport without the horse. It always amuses me when I pass a rather grand archway in Norwich which proudly proclaims the name of the owners of a brand new livery stables opened in 1903. I always wonder how much he lost.
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No new combustion engined cars after 2030, so Europe would end up like Cuba with lots of very old cars. BMW, VW and the other German car makers might not agree with the politicians wish list.
Last edited by: Old Navy on Wed 12 Oct 16 at 21:18
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Cars powered by lithium ion batteries - that went so well for Boeing and Samsung!
Perhaps hydrogen fuel cells will be the answer?
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We visited Zermatt in Switzerland this summer and they only allow zero emission vehicles. As a visitor you park outside town and take a shuttle train. It's only a large village but it was a glimpse of a possible future although it's hard to see how it would scale up.
One problem was that the electric vehicles were so quiet. Also I assume there are exemptions where heavy plant is needed but didn't see any on our day trip.
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I'd say that the internal combustion engine is nearing the end of its days. I think its unavoidable, and probably desirable. This doesn't bother me at all. As long as its got some kind of engine, its not going to be any worse than driving a diesel.
The alternative to the demise of the ICE, is probably the demise of the private car in or anywhere near a city and a pretty significant rise in operating costs anywhere else.
>>BMW, VW and the other German car makers might not agree with the politicians wish list.
Oh you are quite wrong; obviously their starting position is that they despise change, but in their league of changes that wouldn't be a bad one.
The engine is a disproportionately expensive part of their product with decreasing differentiating impact. They have to keep on with it because everybody else is doing it. For comparison, you don't think they *wanted* to produce diesels, do you? The engine *used* to be a real differentiator, but everybody has access to the same technology these days, and they're all converging on the single perfect solution, so what may have been their greatest asset is becoming a liability.
If it gets legislated, then its mostly not their problem because everybody gets thumped with the same stick. It stops being their fault when the price goes up, and it stops being a disadvantage because everybody has to do it. And nobody can blame them. They even get to disingenuously protest about it.
However, threaten the private car in its entirety and they would care very much indeed.
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>> One problem was that the electric vehicles were so quiet. Also I assume there are
>> exemptions where heavy plant is needed but didn't see any on our day trip.
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When I was there the baggage transfer vehicles (milk floats) were fitted with cow bells. I was there in the ski season, the snow plough was a huge diesel front loader, the only other ICE vehicle I saw was the bin lorry. I suspect the hotel supplies are delivered overnight.
Last edited by: Old Navy on Thu 13 Oct 16 at 08:22
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>> >> Meanwhile in the real world.......
>> >>
>> Back at the turn of the twentieth century most of the population felt much the
>> same about horse drawn vehicles. They could not conceive of transport without the horse. It
>> always amuses me when I pass a rather grand archway in Norwich which proudly proclaims
>> the name of the owners of a brand new livery stables opened in 1903. I
>> always wonder how much he lost.
>>
IC engined vehicles offered huge advantages over the horse, electric vehicles don't offer the same compared with IC (other than pollution level at point of use) so I don't think it's a parallel situation.
In terms of livery stables in 1903, British Railways were still using significant numbers of horses for shunting in the mid fifties, the last few remaining until the mid sixties.
www.britishpathe.com/video/shunting-horse
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IIRC Norway did the same last year. We've just returned from a visit to Norway, and a significant proportion of the cars there are already electric - I counted half a dozen Teslas just from where I was standing in one street, because they are easy to spot, but most of the current electric cars on the road were around in greater or lesser numbers.
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I will believe it when I see it, there have been many more gestures to tackle pollution than have actually materialised, so much can happen in 15 years we wont really know until closer to the time.
I cleaned a Tesla a short while ago, owner rated it very highly and it has a similar look to a Maserati in the flesh, a genuinely attractive car. Some interior plastics are a bit low rent, but I did then wonder if they were recycled perhaps which would explain why they resembled a wheelie bin finish. Certainly impressive overall, which I say as a sceptic and I wouldn't be surprised if by 2030 the shortcomings have been overcome completely, we shall see.
Last edited by: Stuu on Sun 16 Oct 16 at 10:17
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There are mainly 2 issues those are preventing battery/electric cars being mainstream.
1. Cost
2. Range/refuelling inconvenience
By 2030, technology will improve a lot and range is likely to improve and cost will come down as more people start buying electric cars.
For most people car is just a transport and they don't bother how it is powered (as long as price within budget and not inconvenient to operate it.)
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Electric cars are an interim fix for politicians green policies. When hydrogen fuel cells become viable battery powered cars will disappear from the roads. The oil rich nations have been getting their money out of oil for years, they see the way things are going.
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When hydrogen fuel cells become
>> viable battery powered cars will disappear from the roads.
I don't think that they will ever become viable. Very few car manufacturers are looking at it now, i think there's only honda left.
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HFCs are attractive at first glance but the disadvantages compared with Battery vehicles are many. Don't seem to have much of a future.
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If Germany are to ban combustion engines, no doubt they will have electric planes. And ships. And tanks. And tractors.
So close all German airports?
Last edited by: madf on Sun 16 Oct 16 at 16:34
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Someone had better invent a new type of battery that lasts 400+ miles on a charge and build the power stations to charge millions of them. What will HGVs be powered with ?
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I think that's not too far away, the range is increasing all the time. I think that depends on when they are charged, there's quite a bit of capacity at night. reports on the internet suggest we'd need 10-20% extra capacity in the grid, I think that's doable.
That's the next big challenge, I've not seen anything on electric wagon, I'm sure that the big manufacturers will be looking at it.
Last edited by: sooty123 on Sun 16 Oct 16 at 17:04
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Ironic isn't it that the road users who would most benefit from electric vehicles financially, and indeed who by using them, would make the greatest contribution to reducing emissions, are the regular high mileage drivers for whom the current technology is impractical.
How's the hydrogen thing developing, to a layman like me, that sounds at least, like a more workable solution?
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>> Ironic isn't it that the road users who would most benefit from electric vehicles financially, and indeed who by using them, would make the greatest contribution to reducing emissions, are the regular high mileage drivers for whom the current technology is impractical.
I don't know would a large number of low mileage be just as beneficial to reducing emissions as a small number of high milers? I don't know but i think they'd likely equal each other.
>> How's the hydrogen thing developing, to a layman like me, that sounds at least, like
>> a more workable solution?
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Too energy hungry and too inefficient to work, from what I've read.
Last edited by: sooty123 on Sun 16 Oct 16 at 18:11
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Fair point Sooty, but I suppose I was thinking mostly of trucks, buses, vans etc in addition to cars.
I'd be happy enough with an electric car if it could do 500+ miles in a day at the random times I might want it to. I can see how it could work where someone had some sort of routine where they could rely on both access to facilities and the time to charge it between usages. Until they can be refuelled as quickly and conveniently as IC engines they're not going to work for my type of use.
Hybrid might though. But from what I gather they have a pretty limited range on electricity only.
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I think 500 miles might be doable, however charging at the same rate as the liquid fuel we use i don't think we will ever see that. But when everyone is on the same playing field it won't matter as much. By that i mean, let's say in 20 years only electric cars are available, everyone and their employers will have the same issue.
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Interesting fact.
The average car journey in the UK is seven miles
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>> Someone had better invent a new type of battery that lasts 400+ miles on a
>> charge and build the power stations to charge millions of them.
And we can run the power stations on oil. Hang on...
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>> If Germany are to ban combustion engines, no doubt they will have electric planes. And
>> ships. And tanks. And tractors.
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>> So close all German airports?
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I assume the proposal is about internal combustion engines, not all combustion engines?
Does a jet engine count as internal combustion?
If the combustion takes place more remotely, eg at the end of an electric cable, then is a power station a combustion engine?
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> Does a jet engine count as internal combustion?
I'd call them gas turbines, but yes as they aren't external combustion, I think you could yes.
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>> I'd call them gas turbines, but yes as they aren't external combustion, I think you
>> could yes.
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OK, ban them then.
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thought i heard vw were going to build a massive battery making factory in germany and that china wasn't investing in combustion engines. can see us getting left behind , thinking to small, not committing
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why not go full circle and make cars 'ronsons' using hydrogen peroxide for fuel to generate electric.
Very green when the HTP breaks down but sometimes can be a little on the hot side.
'Ronsons' was a term the British navy used for two experimental naval submarines just after WWII (HMS Explorer - also known as exploder and HMS Excalibur - also known as HMS Excruciator)
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Hydrogen peroxide is tame compared to Red Fuming Nitric Acid. Using that as an oxidizer with Hydrazine as a fuel would make your car shift (briefly). :-)
Last edited by: Old Navy on Wed 19 Oct 16 at 14:39
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Germany (and EU) to ban combustion engines? - henry k
