Driving home tonight, M8 eastbound out of Glasgow. Got to the "straight" that runs from just before J11 Stepps to J10 Easterhouse ( bit.ly/aV3cwd ). At J11 the speed limit changes from 60mph to 70.
I'm in the inside lane at (real) 63mph, already aware of the car ahead from before the last corner i could see it in the distance so i pre-emptively move out to lane 2 where the street view camera is in the link above, car ahead is level with the off ramp to J11. Between here and the off ramp i reset the cruise control for (real) 74mph. We are just about the only 2 cars in sight fore and aft.
Car moves out to lane 2, no indicator, but there's still approx 50 metres between us -- close enough to be a concern at that speed and slightly unexpected given the empty road ahead, but no big deal, i make sure it's clear, leave my speed alone and move out to lane 3.
Car pulls in front of me, no indicator. I brake from approx 4 car lengths behind, he's doing ~55mph.
Right indicator on after a pause, full beam flash twice, having fallen back to 55mph at 2 seconds back.
He brakes. I indicate and return to the left lane and begin increasing speed (i'm quite a bit back). He increases to ~65mph just after the on ramp and cuts right across to lane 1 again.
I dropped to third while feigning a left hand line hog and left him for dust overtaking via lane 3.
He left his high beams on having followed out to lane 3 and matched my return to lane 1, full beams on till i rounded the next bend.
2 questions:
1) WTF?!
2) How would you have handled it?
2.5) How could i have handled it in a lesser powered car, bearing in mind i absolutely never ever want to make metal to metal contact ever, its just not something i'm willing to do to make a point
|
Wasn't oilrag was it?
I understand he's had a difficult couple of days. :)
|
(1) How am I supposed to know WTF?
(2) I'd have done whatever I thought was appropriate for the circumstances to avoid contact and to get me back into a situation in which I was more content.
Life is too short to worry about minor transient inconveniences on the road.
|
Your racing him loses you the moral high ground, Had the incident been observed, I dare say you would both have got a talking-to.
Pass the index to the police if the behaviour was bad enough, but don't allow yourself to be wound up.
It was probably Michael Schumacher.
|
Was it worth the risk for the few seconds you gained.
One day he will do it to an unmarked police car.
|
So you wanted to cover a distance of perhaps 5 miles (?) at 70 mph instead of 60?
You saved about 1 minute. Please tell us what vital social, cultural or economic benefits you conferred on society with your use of the additional free time.
Compare this saving in time with the possible effect on your life expectancy as a result of your increased heart rate and stress.
|
>> So you wanted to cover a distance of perhaps 5 miles (?) at 70 mph
>> instead of 60?
>>
>> You saved about 1 minute. Please tell us what vital social, cultural or economic benefits
>> you conferred on society with your use of the additional free time.
>>
>> Compare this saving in time with the possible effect on your life expectancy as a
>> result of your increased heart rate and stress.
>>
All this is true as far as it goes, but consider also:
1) If the speed limit is 70, it is safe and appropriate for the OP to travel at that speed and he is in a vehicle capable of it (from the facts as given, it certainly sounds so), then why shouldn't he do so?
2) How is the speed at which OP chooses to travel in any way the business of the other driver?
3) Even if it was the other driver's business in some respect, how does that justify his driving dangerously in order to make whatever his point was?
Highway Code rule 168 is one to bear in mind here.
Last edited by: paulb on Tue 3 Aug 10 at 12:10
|
>> 1) If the speed limit is 70, it is safe and appropriate for the OP
>> to travel at that speed
Not necessarily - too many accidents are caused by that view!
>> and he is in a vehicle capable of it (from
>> the facts as given, it certainly sounds so), then why shouldn't he do so?
>>
>> 2) How is the speed at which OP chooses to travel in any way the
>> business of the other driver?
>>
>> 3) Even if it was the other driver's business in some respect, how does that
>> justify his driving dangerously in order to make whatever his point was?
It doesn't but I was taught as a child that two wrongs don't make a right!
|
>> >> 1) If the speed limit is 70, it is safe and appropriate for the
>> OP
>> >> to travel at that speed
>>
>> Not necessarily - too many accidents are caused by that view!
You misunderstand me, sir. The "if" applied to the whole sentence, thus:
If:
a) the speed limit is 70, and
b) it is safe and appropriate for the OP to travel at that speed, and
c) he is in a vehicle capable of it etc etc.
|
|
I usually have a digital camera within easy reach in the car, a couple of flashes in their general direction usually has people playing games disappearing rapidly.
|
>> I usually have a digital camera within easy reach in the car
I have one of those Roadhawk things, but i always end up feeling a bit guilty using it, so it's not even wired in for the new car - why do i need a camera to handle what everyone else can handle with just observation and communication.
I like the idea, but i know i'd feel guilty if i ever used it.
As for the comments above about overtaking ettiquette, mine was spot on, faultless even.
I felt genuinely concerned last night when i came across this, i didn't understand it firstly (had me looking for accidents ahead or animals in the road at first). Proper ettiquette is indicate your intention first, do not tailgate, and a flash of the headlights is permissible if no response from the driver in front when it's clear for them to return (with a reasonable gap so their progress is not impeded). All those conditions were met.
EDIT: my take on things was the risk was higher being near this guy, than getting away from him. There would have been less risk just dropping back from him (provided he didn't brake to below 50mph on the motorway) but there would be no risk from him once past him, the only tricky bit would be passing him - where there definitely was a risk but one i decided before i committed, that i could safely brake out of (nobody behind).
Last edited by: CraigP on Tue 3 Aug 10 at 10:04
|
Craig, I know the bit you are referring to, driving it most days.
In my experience, depending on how close you are to rush hour, you have people leaving an empty inside lane as far back as Stepps to go into the middle lane because they know 3 miles on the inside lane becomes the slip for M74. Indeed at 5pm the outside lane at this point can be running at 40mph whilst the two inside lanes are stationery due to the off slip which can be quite disconcerting.
However it sounds to me that you had a loony that was just out to cause trouble. Who knows why, just always keep to the back of your mind that they might, in their eyes, have a genuine reason for it. Did they recently lose a member of family due to perceived speeding? Who knows?
Only yesterday I had a loony in a blue Ferrari of all things on M74. Drifted from inside lane onto slip road at Cambuslang, half way down decided to come back onto motorway across chevrons, all without signals, driver in a Corsa had to swerve to avoid, Ferrari driver gave him the middle finger and proceeded to carry on all the way to Croftfoot without using a single indicator!
So it takes all types - what was your guy driving, was it single driver or car full?
|
Fair shout Bobby about they might have a strong conviction in their mind, it's not often wise to antagonise someone in that frame of mind.
Makes you wish inter-car communication was easier and bit richer than flashing lights (or middle fingers)!
>> what was your guy driving, was it single driver or car full?
Focus, diesel by the amount of smoke on acceleration. 2 up, couldn't make out the passenger properly but older woman hairstyle.
Spoke to the old man who i trust implicitly with this stuff (HGV from days gone by, never seems to get caught up in anything but doesn't dilly dally about either). He reckons i shouldn't have moved out to lane 2 pre-emptively, his idea was the guy could have thought i was a middle lane hogger or something like that.
Missed CP's earlier post -- nothing to contribute to society, but 30 mins window to see Monika when i work on these shifts (she's out the door before i'm up in the mornings). A week without seeing each other (it happens frequently, i have to stay on when things kick off at work) isn't much fun.
|
I can't remember ever bothering to do it, but the other driver really needed to be reported for dangerous aggressive driving and tossed briskly up and down for a while by the old bill.
What I wonder is whether if the OP had been doing the correct indicated 75 throughout, and pulled out a more normal distance behind the PITA driver, the latter would have dared to try and get in the way. My guess is not, but even if he had the OP would have been past him pretty quickly on one side or the other.
|
The issue to keep in mind here is that you tend tend to judge other people by your own standards. So you can't understand what they do because you wouldn't do it.
But many, many people are completely thick, mentally ill, on drugs, raging after an argument with their missus etc etc. After you take away all these people, you're the only "normal" person left.
|
|
Bill, I like that point of view!!
|
|
Even when I am not mentally ill, on drugs or quarrelling with the old girl, you would be making a big mistake to conclude that I was 'normal'. No one is really. Normality is like a crime reduction target: something purely theoretical.
|
|
BP's right - there are some crazy people out there. Mad, bad and dangerous. You don't know who you are dealing with or how far they might go. We all know how hard it is not to react when it happens to you, but defensive driving is the best advice for self-preservation. Boring, but sensible.
|
|
Yes, he makes a very valid point... One for all of us to think about next time someone does something stupid in front of us!
|
Craig, thought of you as I drove home tonight on M8!!
Does your vrs have LED DRL's? Could he have seen you in his mirror and thought you were flashing him?
|
Haha, yeah LEDs - they've been mistaken for foglights before. The xenons can look like they're flashing if you go over a bump, but even then i was in a different lane from him by the time the road straightened out.
Ahhh you live and learn, another wee notch of experience. I don't think i'll move out as early anymore, even though it seems counter intuitive to me.
|
>> 2 questions:
>>
>> 1) WTF?!
Ask the question in plain English and I'll attempt to answer it.
|
Criag,
Drive this part of the M8 all the time and having read all the comments above I think you just came across a nutter who decided he wanted to amuse himself.
Reminds me of Christmas day 2 years ago when 2 cars decided to have a shouting match with each other one in the lane 2 and lane 3 at about 30 to 40 mph at the cut off for the Glasgow Royal. They where a pair of nutters as well.
|
WTF is one of those half-internet, half text-message type abbreviations, like IMHO, AFAIK, STFU etc. Generally I abhor such things and I won't dignify WTF by giving its full form here. I'm sure BW can google it if he really doesn't know. I suspect he does anyway, but is making a point.
You can argue about whether it's "plain English" or not. Plenty of acronyms have just become part and parcel of everyday English.
Last edited by: ChrisPeugeot on Wed 4 Aug 10 at 10:00
|
>>WTF is one of those half-internet, half text-message type abbreviations,
Yes, don't you just hate those ridiculous made up verbs, abbreviations or acronyms that we have to live with these days. Its a corruption of our glorious english language..
>>I'm sure BW can google it if he really doesn't know.
"Google" ?? Ah, well, yes, ummm. Never mind, I 'spect that doesn't count.
Last edited by: No FM2R on Wed 4 Aug 10 at 13:02
|
|
I like WTF. Its a very expressive term. IF you dont know what it means or cant abhor change, dont worry you can play with the dinasours.
|
|
I just wonder what you were doing to wind him up. Your first question - and your last question - make me wonder about your attitude.
|
I don't know the patch, but my inclination would be to slow down and pull off at the next junction - assuming idiot doesn't.
Then drive around the raised roundabout a couple of times, and rejoin the main road in the reasonable expectation idiot is now far enough away not to be seen again.
|
>> I don't know the patch, but my inclination would be to slow down and pull
>> off at the next junction -
Must admit that was my first thought as well, iih, however I do admit to having been "drawn in" as the OP was... I just try not to take the bait if I can!
|
Cruising round the M25 yesterday at a (just) legal 70 in the inside lane, I came across a middle lane mimser. I decided to do the legal thing and do the four lane changes necessary.
As I moved into the lane behind him we approached a specs camera with a sign underneath it saying 'camera not in use'. He braked hard!
Undertakers don't wear brown trousers.
|
|
I saw a Subaru go faster thingy brake hard for an average speed camera on Sunday, He must have been near twice the posted limit before and after the camera. Obviously not quite got the average bit !
|
...Obviously not quite got the average bit !...
Yes, I've seen brakes applied for the average speed cameras on the A1(M) north of Wetherby.
It will come as no surprise, but I can confirm the cameras on that stretch work.
I've recently heard of two people who have received tickets for exceeding the average.
|
A large number of road users complete every journey with their mind in neutral
There have been roadworks between J24 and 22 of the M6 for several months now, and at the weekend the southbound roadworks work taken up.
Contraflow removed
cones removed
50mph speed limit signs removed
'camera not in use' signs under every specs camera
yet even now, three days later, a goodly percentage of drivers brake once they pass under the bridge at J24, where the roadworks started, and then continue at under 50 until they get to the point where the roadworks ended.
Take their licences away, I say. ;-)
|
FT>> "Metal to metal contact" - I'm very surprised you even *think* of such a thing.
M>> and your last question - make me wonder about your attitude.
Does noone else genuinely worry about contact? I can't get it out of my mind. It's never far from my mind in any situation really. In fact i'm probably obsessive about keeping space around me --
e.g. last night same road although further on, a guy in a van moved out and slowly overtook me then immediately returned to the left (there was noone behind him) not even a car length in front. Given the low speed differential I moved out a lane (even though i was the slower car on cruise control) to restore my space until he was a couple of seconds ahead.
|
No offence Craig, but what you describe is an eccentric piece of driving by you. Cruise control is not something ordained by God that has to be left alone to do its thing at all costs. If someone overtakes you and cuts in too soon, and you don't want to be that close to them, a touch on one of the pedals will make your car fall back immediately, and you can then re-engage the cruise control if you want.
Leaving cruise control on and swerving about the road instead seems barmy to me, even a bit dangerous.
|
Cruise control in a car is akin to the adjective in English.
Both are best used sparingly.
|
>> Cruise control in a car is akin to the adjective in English.
>>
>> Both are best used sparingly.
>>
I agree that a touch of the cancel switch would have instantly dropped you back and then you could re-engage the CC to resume your set speed. Not sure about the sparingly, I use mine a lot.
Last edited by: Old Navy on Wed 4 Aug 10 at 14:21
|
|
used mine a lot too, in all types of traffic. A couple of clicks down on the set speed would have built a gap, with a click or two to match the previous speed. All easy and relaxed stuff.
|
Well, you and I agree IIH:)
Pat
|
Pat,
I suppose you've done a day's work already?
Don't forget to let us know how the return to driving is going.
|
At the moment there is a slight technical hitch which well may result in me driving my desk for the next few weeks.
You know I'm a stubborn old so & so iffy:)
Pat
|
...Slight technical hitch...You know I'm a stubborn old so & so iffy:)...
True, but the job has to be right for you as well as the transport co.
Hope it sorts to your satisfaction, but I'll ask no more questions.
I'm sure you'll let us know how things progress, if you feel able to do so.
|
"e.g. last night same road although further on......"
If you're having many of these 'incidents', perhaps you should consider what is the common denominator?
Last edited by: Old Sock on Wed 4 Aug 10 at 15:02
|
>> perhaps you should consider what is the common denominator?
He certainly should. I hadn't registered Craig was the OP.
When people drive in a bizarre and restless way on motorways, I try not to respond in kind but it worries me, and I hurry past. There's more and more of it about.
People should learn to drive themselves before complaining of others on the road. If they obviously can't drive properly themselves, their complaints are hard to interpret and may be completely misplaced.
|
>> People should learn to drive themselves before complaining of others on the road. If they
>> obviously can't drive properly themselves, their complaints are hard to interpret and may be completely
>> misplaced.
>>
I will start a new thread, hopefully to see who has passed what test(s).
|
>> who has passed what test(s).
What have tests got to do with anything ON? Are you going to tell us that pursed-lipped uptight IAM wonks are the only people who can drive properly? If you do I will award you a juicy raspberry.
|
>> ... pursed-lipped uptight IAM wonks ....
I think you missed out 'cardigan-wearing', AC :-)
|
|
So you are too good a driver to need advanced training Eh.
Last edited by: Old Navy on Wed 4 Aug 10 at 15:42
|
>> So you are too good a driver to need advanced training Eh.
It's like this ON: in theory there's nothing that can't be improved. In practice though the effort involved in improving what is already pretty sound may not be, so to speak, economically viable. If passing tests and exams floats your boat, well and good. Seems unutterably dreary to me now that I am an adult at last. But it's the real world that matters. I very seldom frighten myself or anyone else these days.
Small, discreet raspberry. The juicy one would have been excessive.
Last edited by: Armel Coussine on Wed 4 Aug 10 at 15:55
|
>> If you're having many of these 'incidents', perhaps you should consider what is the common denominator?
Fair comment. If im honest i don't personally consider the cruise control an incident but maybe that's where i'm falling down?
There's a common theme in a few posts above --
>> Wait for something else to come along
>> pull off at the next junction - assuming idiot doesn't. Then drive around the raised roundabout a couple of times, and rejoin the main road
>> 2 other smaller snippets
I don't (currently) subscribe to the idea that i should arbitrarily wait for someone else who can go about their own business unimpeded by me, and when there is no real reason for me not to go about my business unimpeded by them. Youthful impatience? Probably. I'm kind of open to other views but i have this overriding ideal that i shouldn't reasonably impede others and others shouldn't reasonably impede me. Maybe the key is in the word "ideal" ?
>> Cruise control is not something ordained by God that has to be left alone to do its thing at all costs. If someone overtakes you and cuts in too soon, and you don't want to be that close to them, a touch on one of the pedals will make your car fall back immediately
Yeah that would definitely be the most common reaction and in other circumstances would have been mine. Wasn't my chosen one though. Why? Probably no more to it than because i could. I guess I'm (as exemplified above) not especially receptive to unnecessary intrusions.
|
No offence again Craig, but you sound like a jittery, noticeable driver to me. If you come up on people with a speed differential of just a couple of miles an hour, and then jink restlessly about, they may well get jittery in their turn.
If you drive briskly and smoothly - no need to drive the correct indicated 5 mph over the limit if you don't want to, but 63mph in the middle lane may well get on people's nerves - and make your intentions clear at all times, these incidents won't happen so often.
|
>> but you sound like a jittery, noticeable driver to me
I'm going to consider that. My first reaction is to say no i think you've misinterpreted, i don't believe it drive with anything other than purpose, i.e. certainly don't hesitate, but then again -- if i were that type of driver, that would be exactly my response. Food for (my) thought.
EDIT: P.s. no need for the no offence, i've jumped into the spotlight and invited comments (good and bad) instead of always sitting on the sidelines shouting in on other peoples public scrutineering!
Last edited by: CraigP on Wed 4 Aug 10 at 17:06
|
>> FT>> "Metal to metal contact" - I'm very surprised you even *think* of such a
>> thing.
>> Does noone else genuinely worry about contact?
You wrote:
" 2.5) How could i have handled it in a lesser powered car, bearing in mind i absolutely never ever want to make metal to metal contact ever, its just not something i'm willing to do to make a point"
The "not something i'm willing to do to make a point" implied that you had considered the possibility of your manoueuvre resulting in contact with him.
|
>> last night same road although further on, a guy in a van moved out
>> and slowly overtook me then immediately returned to the left
>> Given the low speed differential I moved out a lane
You could have moved to the inside lane.
Last edited by: FotheringtonTomas on Wed 4 Aug 10 at 16:53
|
>> You could have moved to the inside lane.
>>
I think he had got to the two lane M8 by then.
|
>> 2.5) How could i have handled it in a lesser powered car, bearing in mind
>> i absolutely never ever want to make metal to metal contact ever, its just not
>> something i'm willing to do to make a point
I honestly think this is one of the most eccentric things I have ever read on here. Who ever would want to make metal to metal contact? The whole point of driving is so as to avoid it, to the extent that it's not something that ever crosses my mind. My safety margin is well beyond the thickness of two layers of paint!
Who has ever considered, even for a second, that metal-to-metal contact is a sensible way to "make a point"; or even something that anybody is "willing" to do. At 70MPH!!!
Last edited by: Mapmaker on Wed 4 Aug 10 at 15:29
|
"making a point" is not what I consider a "normal" way of thinking when I am driving.
Enough nutters about to add my name to the list too often...
"Just get there safely" is my motto.
|
>> Who has ever considered, even for a second, that metal-to-metal contact is a sensible way
>> to "make a point";
I have.
>> or even something that anybody is "willing" to do.
I have
>> At 70MPH!!!
No, far too dangerous for ones own good, did it at 10mph. Wouldnt do it now, airbags go off - very expensive.
|
Years ago my mate drove his company Peugeot 405 into the back of someone who cut him up. He did this on the basis that:
a) He was bored with the car and could replace it with a brand new one.
b) The other person deserved it as they'd snip him off.
The car got repaired rather than replaced, so he continued to drive like a loony until he lost it one day approaching a roundabout too fast and ended up in hospital. Discovering that having a crash involves pain calmed him down a bit.
Worries me that there could be other drivers out there with this mentality.
Last edited by: VxFan on Wed 4 Aug 10 at 19:04
|
|
An amateur enforcer stopped me over the weekend, I was approaching a mini roundabout, (a straight on with a road from the left angled slightly away), Young lady from the left decided not to stop until her car was in the Tbone position, It wasn't until she had turned right I could see the "L" plate on the back of her car in my mirror. The older woman in the passenger seat looked horrified, I think the driver was in blissful ignorance.
|
>> I honestly think this is one of the most eccentric things
I'd sleep easy on this one Mapmaker and not read too far into it.
I like the use of the word eccentric, misplaced though (unfortunately).
|
>> I'm going to consider that.
Ok, considered! Over a filling chicken fajita and a read at today's auto express too.
>> If you're having many of these 'incidents', perhaps you should consider what is the common denominator?
Incident 1 -- can't rule out i provoked the other driver - the idea that he thought i was a middle lane hog sticks in my mind. Lesson Learned for future, don't move out too early.
Incident 2 -- Unlikely the other driver realised my (percieved) inconvenience, and it wasn't apparently done with intent. My moving out, eccentric response, possibly but leaning more on the idea i chose to minimise my inconvenience (because i could on the empty motorway).
Incident (others) -- 2 other recent incidents to consider -- i failed to indicate left when turning left at a roundabout and needlessly held up a driving instructor of all folks. She blasted the horn at me, i signalled sorry. I had let myself become pre-occupied with something else on my mind in an otherwise empty industrial estate. Poor show on my part. Other incident was more a "could have been", and was non fault (person pulled out without looking, kind of predicted it anyway).
>> the idea that i should arbitrarily wait for someone else
No further views on this, i'm happy to continue to overtake where safe and reasonable to do so (i.e. not overtaking with just 5mph speed difference, i'd reset my CC in that case).
>> Cruise control is not something ordained by God
It's one tool of many available to a driver. It's there to be used where it's relevant, and it's not necessarily the first thing to cancel on approaching obstacles (overtaking is frequently the better action for all involved). Agree that it doesn't come above everything else.
>> a touch on one of the pedals will make your car fall back immediately
I agree, this is the appropriate action where it is not safe to overtake (and sometimes where it is safe to overtake, e.g. little speed difference).
I rarely brake on a motorway, partly most of my journeys are in unsociable hours, partly anticipation.
>> sound like a jittery
On reflection, I don't share that view of myself. I've given it good consideration, and not just on motorways.
>> noticeable driver to me
Some things do make me stand out, i can't remember the last time i was flashed at but i have been tailgated. In every case i've had a ~2 second gap in front of me in traffic where noone else in sight has had more than 2 car lengths at ~55mph. Some folks just don't like gaps, not inclined to consider it further, my gap's not unreasonable and my choice to make.
>> no need to drive the correct indicated 5 mph over the limit if you don't want to
I was doing above that in the cases above (the 63mph was a real figure, indicated ~68mph on a posted 60mph section).
>> implied that you had considered the possibility of your manoueuvre
Pretty much at all times i do consider the idea that it could happen, but i hear what you're saying -- I re-read what i wrote after Mapmaker pointed it out, strange emphasis on my part in the intial post. Who knows why. I like typing faster than i think sometimes.
|
>> Who has ever considered, even for a second, that metal-to-metal contact is a sensible way
>> to "make a point"; or even something that anybody is "willing" to do. At 70MPH!!!
>>
>>
Its called Stock Car racing ( and yes, at 70mph or more)... and thats where it should stay, on the track not on the road! ;-)
|
I've almost had metal to metal contact with someone a few years ago. A souped up Peugeot was tailgating me around a roundabout and on to the dual carriageway. It annoyed me, so I deliberately stayed in the faster lane for a few seconds more than needed, thick diesel smoke covering him from my Audi. When I pulled over, he came past me and swerved across deliberately trying to push me off the road. We were literally within inches off each other shouting abuse, he then shot off.
I sometimes think about the consequences had I come off the road, maybe also followed by him. He did not look like the sort of person to shake hands, more likely had a knife under the dash. After reading the posts above, I agree that there are some nasty people out there, and I learnt from that incident that it's just not worth winding someone up, especially if you don't know them.
Just pull over, and let them go. Sooner or later they will come a cropper (and attract a copper) if they continue as they are.
Last edited by: corax on Thu 5 Aug 10 at 11:44
|
>> Just pull over, and let them go. Sooner or later they will come a cropper
>> (and attract a copper) if they continue as they are.
>>
Don't impede the progress of anyone, you are not an amateur traffic enforcer. Just hope they have their accident far enough ahead for you not to be involved.
|
|
North Road, near Hattonrigg rd
|
Am impressed!!
Your car looks great, brilliant colour and those DRL's look good.
Now it is obvious why you stood out but how did you see me in my humble old car??
|
Heard a grinding noise and thought "someone's CV joints' on the road out" :-P
EDIT: disappointed i never picked up the index like you did, too much traffic's my excuse!
Last edited by: CraigP on Sat 7 Aug 10 at 23:50
|
New one on me,handling an amateur traffic enforcer - Iffy
