Similar to the Cactus losing stop-start, Ford have quietly dropped the Powershift automatic transmission from the Focus in Australia and New Zealand. They have reverted to a TC autobox forthwith, and taken the hit on mpg & 0-60 acceleration.
Makes you wonder why..?
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They have had a continual long line issues with the box, specially in fiestas. One of the reasons I pointed Mrs Z to an older Fiesta with the TC auto. And its a nicer box to drive.
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I have a friend with a 2yo 2.0L Powershift Focus in Aus, OK when on the move but it appears to jerk and clunk in heavy traffic or low speed manoeuvres, noticeably worse than the VAG DQ200 from my experience. Not sure if this is how he drives or confined to his particular example.
In markets where every gramme of petrol (or CO2) matters I guess the automated manual (DSG et al) will continue to be developed, hopefully they'll get them right some time too. I'd observe that the Japanese manufacturers (Nissan, Toyota, Subaru) are going for CVT.
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Torque Converter Autos have been going for some 60 years in the UK and were semi OK then and have improved markedly in the last few years.
Mid 70s my next door neighbour had 3 auto gearboxes in his Granada in the 1st year - Ford Auto rather than the Borg-warner that most cars had.
Maybe the MMT, DSG, Powershift CVTs etc just need time to evolve and catch up with the TCs.
I think I would be happy to go with a Toyota CVT as well as TCs - I am sure Toyota would stand up to be counted for early failures of their auto boxes.
I think it is too early to buy a VW DSG, Ford Powershift etc etc as they seem to have sloping shoulders for anything even a short period after the warranty time or mileage & even in denial during warranty.
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I researched auto boxes during a recent potential purchace. My conclusions were no dsg, power shift or any of their type out of warranty or used. Most, if not all TC autos have a locking TC and have little if any fuel consumption penalty. (I don't do Co2). CVT seems to be the best option for small engines, TCs for big ones. As most car sales in the UK are to fleets it is only the private owner that has a real problem if it goes wrong.
Last edited by: Old Navy on Mon 21 Mar 16 at 10:48
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Most, if not all TC autos have a locking TC and have little if any fuel consumption penalty...
...when cruising. Stuck in traffic in the LEC I can watch the TC auto dragging the fuel gauge downwards. In contrast, the BMW manual (which I now realize is probably disengaging the alternator too) seems to use barely any fuel when idling, despite having two more pistons to keep moving.
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>>Stuck in traffic in the LEC I can watch the TC auto dragging the fuel gauge downwards
>>
On my 98 Mondeo I had a real time fuel consumption display but It was deleted on my X type.
It was interesting that on overrun it went up to the max display of 99mpg but down to single figures when in " give it some welly " mode.
I hate to think what the results would be today as 300 miles per tank is close to normal urban driving for me.
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Fuel cost must be immaterial to anyone who drives a LEC. :-)
Last edited by: Old Navy on Mon 21 Mar 16 at 12:04
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That's what the edit was going to be, but I knew someone would bite so I left it. :-)
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I can afford the fuel, thanks, but I'd prefer not to leave too much CO2 for my children to clean up.
The LEC has no instantaneous readout but gives an automatic average from the start of the trip. It can drop by 5mpg in a 20-minute queue.
Last edited by: WillDeBeest on Mon 21 Mar 16 at 12:40
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I always drop my TC auto in to neutral when I'm in not moving in traffic. Being a mechanical ignoramus, am I helping maintain better fuel consumption by doing this, or making no difference at all? I'm not doing it for fuel saving reasons, it's just what I like to do, but I'd be interested to know if it affects consumption either way or not. Number Cruncher would know. Then someone would come along and try to shout him down. :-(
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I do the same, Vić, and I think it does. In the summer I'm regularly stuck in the same queue (White Hill, I'm sure you've done it) and using N does seem to reduce the hit on the trip mpg average. No doubt some will say I'm increasing wear on the gearbox, but even if it takes 100,000 miles off the life of the box, it should still be good for 400,000 (to go by what my taxi drivers tell me about theirs) - way beyond where I'll ever take it.
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>> ...... it should still be good for 400,000 (to go by
>> what my taxi drivers tell me about theirs) - way beyond where I'll ever take
>> it.
Do you have the transmission fluid changed?
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No. It's supposed not to be necessary. The factory fill should be replaced at 40,000 miles; I bought mine at 37,000 and it was done before I collected it. The second fill - presumably without the bedding-in swarf that went out with the first - should last indefinitely.
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>>I always drop my TC auto in to neutral when I'm in not moving in traffic.
I just press the brake pedal hard and release it which activates the "hold" function. I think that's what it's for. Dunno, seems to work anyway.
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>>
>> I think it is too early to buy a VW DSG, Ford Powershift etc etc
>> as they seem to have sloping shoulders for anything even a short period after the
>> warranty time or mileage & even in denial during warranty.
>>
My personal experience of a DQ200 (dry clutch) DSG in Australia was that VW responded very well when one of the clutch packs warped at around 8K miles, they replaced it all without fuss. However - given that the supposedly modified/improved gearbox gave such trouble so early in its life I changed the car (having lost a lot of money). I understand that the DQ250 and other variants with 'wet clutches' (in oil) are a better prospect but VAG seems to fit the DQ200 to so many derivatives these days.
My 2.5i Outback has a Jatco CVT (with a torque converter) and I am very happy with it, it's no sports car but it makes best use of the limited torque and is reasonably economical (40mpg on a run, perhaps 25mpg around town). It's nothing like the Fiat/Ford or DAF CVTs of yesteryear and can be operated with 6 'stepped' gears if desired. Having the torque converter in the drivetrain makes it maneuver like any other TC auto and it's smooth in traffic.
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I wonder if it is more than coincidence that VW had more problems with their DSG box in Australia, and now Ford having problems with their Powershift?
For what it's worth, the DSG box on my Transporter has been absolutely fine, and better than the Powershift box on the S-Max (smoother changes, better changes, etc.)
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Could it be because the ANZ folk are used to driving TC autos and don't realise they have a clutch to consider? I have a friend in Aus who went from a Ford falcon TC auto to a Jazz CVT and did not know the difference, it was just an auto.
Last edited by: Old Navy on Mon 21 Mar 16 at 14:18
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Who but a tiny minority of auto drivers does consider what's connected to the pedal? Especially when there's no pedal there! Most customers buy an automatic because they want a Go pedal and a Stop pedal and nothing else to worry about, and those who sell DSG and its cousins do nothing to discourage that idea. Certainly neither of the salesmen who've handed me the key to a DSG car said anything that hinted at special treatment.
Perhaps that's the wider problem: a TC is pretty well idiot-proof and a DSG isn't, but will be chosen and treated as if it was.
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It's OK for us automotive anoraks, but we are a rare and soon to be extinct breed.
Last edited by: Old Navy on Mon 21 Mar 16 at 17:55
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>> It's OK for us automotive anoraks, but we are a rare and soon to be extinct breed.
I'm not sure that the number of people who *want * to know about cars has changed much. What is disappearing is the number of people who take an interest because they have to.
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I used to "tinker" with them. Now I open the bonnet and think 'nah maybe not'...
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I must admit it is nice to only lift the bonnet to check fluid levels and top up the screen wash. I expect all of you will know but I wonder how many of Joe public knows whether their car has IRS or a torsion beam.
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I wonder how many cars you will still have to lift the bonnet to check those things? I don't think it would cost that much to have level sensors on them.
Very few, it's a geeky car thing to know. It's a tool from a to b, a means to an end.
Last edited by: sooty123 on Mon 21 Mar 16 at 19:09
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Sensors will soon be as universal as electric windows. I don't need to open the bonnet to check anything on mine, only to top up what it's told me it's short of.
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I do like a full washer bottle. It gets topped up weekly. Wouldn't feel right on a Monday to have a part empty washer bottle. Green concentrate too. Can't be doing with the pink stuff. Has to be green. Even blue won't do. Green only. Mens screen wash additive that.
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"I do like a full washer bottle. It gets topped up weekly. "
Me too. I use this handy guide to check the correct procedure.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=FlwGo8PnJ0c
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>> "I do like a full washer bottle. It gets topped up weekly. "
>>
>> Me too. I use this handy guide to check the correct procedure.
>>
>>
>> www.youtube.com/watch?v=FlwGo8PnJ0c
Very Informative,
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That's a coincidence. I also tend to fill mine using two large jugs.
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Try to remember too that the grease nipples also require regular attention, especially on, um, older models.
(*_*)
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>> Sensors will soon be as universal as electric windows.
>> I don't need to open the bonnet to check anything on mine,
>> only to top up what it's told me it's short of.
>>
I hope you are right and lucky you but does it have washer bottle sensors that tell you the current state, i.e. a third full, two thirds full ?
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...does it have washer bottle sensors that tell you the current state...?
Not for the washer fluid, no. But I've now had three cars with a sensor and each one has issued the warning with more than enough in the tank for a very long journey, so as long as I fill it up at the next opportunity that's good enough for me. (Made me even more peeved when I set off in the LEC for its MoT and found the tank bone dry. Goodness knows how many times Mrs Beest must have ignored the warning.)
For oil, though, the BMW gives me a graduated level readout in the dashboard display. Cute. It's never varied from 'Full', of course, but that's another old thread.
Last edited by: WillDeBeest on Mon 21 Mar 16 at 20:19
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>> I wonder how many cars you will still have to lift the bonnet to check those things?
>> I don't think it would cost that much to have level sensors on them.
>>
IMO long, long overdue.
Plus move the washer bottle to the boot area ( on most cars ) with a flap like we are used to for petrol and have proper level indicators not the silly sensor saying " Empty" when I know that cos it dont squirt. The complex shapes of washer reservoirs often means you have two indicators, Empty on the dash or full as I can see the blue stuff up the neck of the bottle.
Then drop the silly requirement to gaze under the bonnet on the L test.
Then lock the bonnet ( Focus I had a lock) and forget it for 99% of the population.
Citroen had a BIG red EYE that lit up with STOP in its middle when something drastic happened.
I guess some drivers would immediately stop even when in lane 3 on a Motorway.
We share the road with all sorts :-(
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I think the audi a2 had such a set up. There was just a small flap at the front for filling up various liquids.
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They were a success then.
;-)
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I think they sold pretty well didn't they? Its got a bit of Pope mobile look to it, which is quite popular perhaps a bit before its time.
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>> I think the audi a2 had such a set up.
>> There was just a small flap at the front for filling up various liquids.
>>
IIRC that was because the engine was totally buried
i2.wp.com/www.motoringresearch.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/07_Audi_A2.jpg?resize=1800%2C1200
bilde.dinside.no/stort+bilde+serviceluke+panser.jpg?o=22206&w=450&frame=0&ee=
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The bonnet of the A2 was easily removed. And looks like you could work on some things:
s848.photobucket.com/user/Bigfatnapper/media/DSCF0290-1.jpg.html
Trickier to get on and easy to damage when removed apparently.
Last edited by: rtj70 on Mon 21 Mar 16 at 22:25
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>>
>> Perhaps that's the wider problem: a TC is pretty well idiot-proof and a DSG isn't,
>> but will be chosen and treated as if it was.
>>
Yes, most cars in Aus are auto these days and many drivers have never driven a manual or can understand why you might want to - we had to wait 2 months recently for a manual Mazda 3 to be delivered.
I guess the question which might be asked is whether drivers should have to vary their driving style at all for a DSG ? I suspect that the design-aim is that they shouldn't, VAG don't appear to offer any TC Auto alternatives in Aus where the market demand is for the functionality of a TC Auto.
Last edited by: idle_chatterer on Tue 22 Mar 16 at 03:32
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>> Who but a tiny minority of auto drivers does consider what's connected to the pedal?
>> Especially when there's no pedal there! Most customers buy an automatic because they want a
>> Go pedal and a Stop pedal and nothing else to worry about, and those who
>> sell DSG and its cousins do nothing to discourage that idea. Certainly neither of the
>> salesmen who've handed me the key to a DSG car said anything that hinted at
>> special treatment.
>>
>> Perhaps that's the wider problem: a TC is pretty well idiot-proof and a DSG isn't,
>> but will be chosen and treated as if it was.
>>
Manfacturers only care about the first buyer, all of these boxes will be fine for the forst three years under most conditions. Job done.
Second hand buyers have to be a bit more circumspect, but it was ever thus.
Example: a mate looking for a small estate/MPV for the wife. Settles on a Volvo V50 Drive model. Nice enough looking, decent MPGs. Found a car 4 years old with 70k on the clock. realised it needs a £1200 service on 72k for the DPF. Someone buying that car new and intending to trade for another new car after 3 years doesn'tc are about that serice and benefits from the MPGs. Next owner - massive service bill wipes out MPG benefit.
Manufacturer doesn't care. DSG Gonna be a problem out of warranty? Expensive regular fluid changes? VW attitude = Meh.
My mate is now looking at SAAB 9-3s...........
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Manufacturers only care about the first buyer.
I know you don't do numbers, Vić, but it doesn't take much thought to see that that makes no sense. Cars that require expensive attention in early middle age will see that reflected in their value at three years, because buyers will be wary of taking on a liability. Those values mean more than anything now, because they underpin the business and personal leasing and contract purchase markets, which are the majority of new car deals. No manufacturer can afford to ignore residuals because its leases will become uncompetitive.
In that sense the first owner is bearing at least part of the cost of the additional services.
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But there's herd mentality too. Everyone is doing the automated manual thing, or the expensive DPF service thing, or some such. So safety in numbers. Nobody's getting an advantage. So they're making cars with the first three years ownership costs being the main driver, precisely for the reasons you state - getting people in to leases/PCPS etc for three years and then giving them the incentive to get another new one because the exisiting one is going to start costing. If all (or most mainstream, anyway) are doing the same, it's not a problem for residuals.
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>> deals. No manufacturer can afford to ignore residuals because its leases will become uncompetitive.
As renault found out. Collapsing residuals killed new sales. Whole ranges and market sectors of cars had to be dropped.
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Renault was different because others were not behaving the same with regard to quality. Peugeot was perhaps guilty of that but mitigated with much more attractive sales deals. And Renault have only dropped those ranges in the UK where its reputation was hardest hit. European markets remained stronger for them. Renault still make a Laguna sector car for example, the Talisman. But it won't come to the UK. And now Renault mitigate somewhat with badge engineering - Dacia.
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>> Renault was different
No you missed the point. Leasing, - company leasing - depends on residual value at end of lease. - that's where the profit is. Residual is at the auction hall
Renault residuals at auction collapsed on three ranges - Meganne, Laguna, and Espace, because of reliability and big bills, trade auction buyers wouldn't touch them.
Cheap up front deals for lease cos didn't work (mine was obtained at a 38% discount - the bozos left the paperwork int he car) and they were pulled from lease lists.
Those three ranges of car only survived in the UK because of Lease deals* So they went Renault UK couldn't ale money on private sales only (Latest meganne has made it back on lists.)
*Vectra, passat, mondeo, only exist in the UK for lease company deals.
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Yes, but in order to get company car buyers and leasees to buy/lease your car, you have to make it attractive in BIK terms, meaning emissions need to be low. So, maufacturers use DSGs and Powershifts and DPFs which are expensive to service in mid/later life to keep emissions down and thereforeBIK costs down and therefore get people to take the cars on lease in the first place. It's no good having cars with great residuals if you don't sell any to start with. And to do that, costs have to be low for the first three years but running costs post-three years can be shifted bown the priorty lists when designing the cars.
A Volvo V50 Drive looks like a great car brand new to a company car user, it's a flawed choice in terms of overall running costs if you're an unwary second hand buyer and cop for the DPF service, which wipes out any great fuel consumption the car may demonstrate.
I hear what you're saying, I don't think we disagree, we're just pointing out the complexities of bringing a car to market these days. There are many aspects, angles, considerations.
And yes, Renault bgguered it up. In the UK, at least.
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>> Manufacturers only care about the first buyer.
Possibly they only care during the warranty period.
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Many car deals are for employees - BIK is vital info for the employee. BIK = a % of the list price NOT the price paid on the invoice..
Ford list prices are high. Choose the right time and even a private punter can get 20%. Fleet operators can be in the 30's, heaven knows what the like of Avis & Hertz get.
As BIK is based on list & Ford offer BIG discounts why do Ford not lower the List Price, drop the BIK and make their offer more value to "Company Car Employees"?
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>> As BIK is based on list & Ford offer BIG discounts why do Ford not
>> lower the List Price, drop the BIK and make their offer more value to "Company
>> Car Employees"?
>>
I've never understood that either. The only thing I can think is that its to do with perceived residual value, so if a car depreciates by 50% in first 3 years from list the reality for the finance company is that a 20 - 30% up front discount means the depreciation is more like 20-30%.
Makes PCP / lease deals look good value to retail punters
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Ford Focus III - Ford withdraw Powershift autobox in ANZ - Zero
