Driving the son-in-law's Cherokee to the fettling chap today reminded me of how sweet and smooth a straight-six engine can be. Of course the old Bentley had one of those too.
Was it LJK Setright who claimed the straight six was intrinsically perfectly balanced? He liked old Bristols which were straight sixes.
I couldn't move the Cherokee's gear lever and had to ring the daughter. She reminded me that one had to press the brake pedal to get out of 'Park'. Duh... even then I wasn't sure which of its five or six positions equated to 'Drive' in a US auto (the letters or numbers were too small for me to be able to see them properly), but I think it used all its three ratios in the one I put it in. It goes very well actually, quite a lot of oomph.
R type Bentley according to Wikypedia did 15mpg. Driven gently mine could manage 17, but I don't think it often did. Mine was manual, that right hand gear lever was charming.
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Perhaps the most aurally pleasing engines. Although V8s can sound very fruity.
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My old Triumph is a straight six and the S Type is a V6... I like both.
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>> V8s can sound very fruity.
Modern ones can be very smooth, but they usually have a beat which makes them sound a bit rough. Of course very highly tuned sixes can be quite noisy and crackling. But I've never piloted a car with one of those.
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My old 328 was as well....smooth a chocolate frog. I kept reminding myself that the T5's five pot was just as pleasing - it was quieter than the 3's though. I'm sure that BMW engineered the engine's NVH to sound pleasing in the cabin.
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>> My old 328 was as well....smooth a chocolate frog.
The Bristol six was a direct crib of the 328 I believe. Not a crib exactly, a perfectly legal evolved version though, very similar in most respects.
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Lovely engine. I used to refer to it as an iron fist in a velvet glove, maybe overstating it on reflection.
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>> T5's five pot was just as pleasing - it was quieter than the 3's though.
>>
I miss the 5 pots from my old T5s - the new 4 pot just isn't the same, even though the van is more refined overall because of additional sound-proofing
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>> This is how a V8 should sound.
Only if you're a trucker Pat. And a very heavy smoker...
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>>He liked
>> old Bristols.
>>
Well this thread heads for the gutter...
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>> >>He liked
>> >> old Bristols.
>> >>
>> Well this thread heads for the gutter...
>>
Exactly. Surely young Bristols are preferable?!
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I used to work in Brentford, many years ago, and the Bristol servicing place was a few blocks away.
A few years back, there was a thread somewhere along the lines of 'Cars you never see on the road', and that got me thinking - apart from the 'local' ones at the garage, I don't believe I ever saw a Bristol on the road.
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....when I was at University, students ran a variety of cars (mainly beaten up old jalopies). My best friend had a couple of barely-roadworthy Ford Anglias in succession, kept running by regular visits to scrapyards for donor parts.
The Student's Union treasurer, however, ran an old, but not so beaten-up Bristol (a fairly early 40x series, I think - I do remember it was dark red).
Everyone joked that he must be embezzling the funds!
...of course, towards the end of the year, the police duly carted him off.............
(I did manage to Google something about this some years ago, but am now drawing a blank)
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Funnily enough, Ian, until this week I'd have said the same thing. But then I saw an odd, square - if I'm honest, ugly - shape leaving the M4 for the M25 and worked out that it must have been a 1980s Bristol with a name like Beaufighter. It was white, but that's all I can tell you because it was a horrible wet night and the car was two lanes away from me.
But at least I've seen one.
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When Anthony Crook bought Bristol the cars changed radically, losing the silky BMW-derived six and gaining a huge 7 litre or so V8 to become a suave English version of a US hotrod thing. They are faster than true Bristols but not as nice (although I'd love one of course if I could afford it).
Is the Beaufighter the one with gull-wing doors? Was there a V10 in it? I'm getting old, can't remember.
Last edited by: Armel Coussine on Sat 19 Dec 15 at 14:30
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From what I looked up this morning, the Beaufighter was a derivative of the late-70s 412, with the same 5.9-litre Chrysler V8, only turbocharged. Same ugly Zagato body, with a bump in the bonnet for the turbo hardware. Couldn't see from where I was whether this or a plain 412 was what I saw.
More recent is the gull-winged, V10 Fighter, which is very fast and not quite as ugly as the other models. Some make a big deal of its drag coefficient of 0.28, which is the same as my cheaper and better looking S60. I've never seen one, of course.
There seems to be a view that Bristol is a thing you need to 'get'. Clearly I'm one that doesn't.
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>> From what I looked up this morning, the Beaufighter was a derivative of the late-70s 412,
Thanks for the detailed information WDB.
>> There seems to be a view that Bristol is a thing you need to 'get'. Clearly I'm one that doesn't.
Is it? Always seemed to me to be very classy expensive sporting(ish) motors, distinct from the common run of posh or fast cars. I hesitate though to use Setright's expression 'gentleman's express'.
Back in the day I got a long lift in a Bristol six, middle-aged middle-class driver. Rapid comfortable peaceful progress, creamy engine. They were great cars, a bit overpriced but worth it.
Why are you down on Zagato though? There's a photo on the net of an absolutely mouthwatering Zagato-bodied Ferrari 'tourer'. I like a car with no bumpers although I would probably damage one in shortish order.
Last edited by: Armel Coussine on Sun 20 Dec 15 at 15:09
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>> I don't believe I ever saw a Bristol on the road.
I tuned a Bristol once upon a time, long, long ago, for a chap in Denmark Hill sowf lunden who lived a phew Diana Dors away from that boxer who was moydered. Can't think of his name at the mo but, Mr Knowall will know :o)
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It suits me to stay in the Hilton hotel next to the Olympia exhibition centre from time to time. The Bristol showroom is in the same block of properties and usually has 2 or 3 examples in the window. The underground garage beneath the hotel also has a section where various Bristols are often parked.
Some of them are fairly drool worthy things. I'm not entirely sure one would be on my wish list even if I were in a position to afford it. I think I would feel in need of a large sprawling country residence and a title to go with it which all starts to make it a bit complicated.
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>>I think I would feel in need of a large sprawling country residence and a title to go with it which all starts to make it a bit complicated.
The bigger your roof, the more snow falls upon it ... Olde Persian proverb ;)
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>> who lived a phew Diana Dors away from that boxer who was moydered
= en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freddie_Mills#Death
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>>Was it LJK Setright who claimed the straight six was intrinsically perfectly balanced?
I used to think that until someone here (or maybe t'other side) put me right - it may have been number cruncher. I wonder what happened to him?
Anyway, straight sixes are inherently smoother than fours, but not quite perfect.
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>> it may have been number cruncher. I wonder what happened to him?
I have a feeling he sort of flounced. He was a bit overbearing, spewed out engineering equations but somehow didn't seem to like or understand cars. He took it very badly when disagreed with.
>> Anyway, straight sixes are inherently smoother than fours, but not quite perfect.
Nothing's perfect bt. Turbines and Wankels are smooth but both have radical faults as car engines.
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I had a 5 cylinder Volvo 850 at one time, 2.5L petrol. Went well enough in a straight line anyway, and actually sounded quite nice. Throaty. Fairly thirsty thing though.
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I miss numbercruncher. He could explain mechanical things in a way even I could understand and he had the patience to do it too.
Pat
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>> I miss numbercruncher. He could explain mechanical things in a way even I could understand and he had the patience to do it too.
I don't. I'm sorry he's no longer here, but his explanations often seemed wilfully obscure to me. I think you're wearing the rose-tinted specs Pat.
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Number_cruncher is much missed. A shame he has gone. Aprilia as well, although I don't think he ever washed up on these shores when the HJ ship went down.
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>>I have a feeling he sort of flounced
Really?
A nice chap that you took umbrage to and insulted and hounded until he left. And I never really understood what your objection was, he always seem a pleasant and helpful chap to me. I learned from him often.
Perhaps you were intimidated by his understanding. Or ashamed of your own.
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>>I learned from him often.
>>
Me too. Maybe one of the mods could drop him a line, see if he could be enticed back. He saved me a lot of time and money.
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>> A nice chap that you took umbrage to and insulted and hounded until he left
He may well be a nice chap, and as I say I'm sorry he's gone. But he was a galloping PITA too, and he did flounce, unable to take being disagreed with. I didn't take umbrage 'to' him at all. It was the other way round if umbrage came into it.
>> Perhaps you were intimidated by his understanding. Or ashamed of your own.
No, and no. He knew engineering stuff but didn't have a clue about the automobile. I'm afraid it's your understanding that's at fault here FMR.
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I watched, I read, you hounded.
I only ever heard you object to him or find him a PITA.
You were unpleasant.
Still, it happens I just never understood "why him?"
Last edited by: No FM2R on Fri 18 Dec 15 at 19:22
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>> You were unpleasant.
I thought he was. Not very, but enough to annoy.
I suppose we could go back to the archive, but my heart really sinks at the prospect.
I've said already that he tried to intimidate people with engineering equations but didn't give a stuff for cars. Perhaps you didn't understand FMR, but I don't give a stuff for your spiteful attempts to make me seem shabby.
So get stuffed.
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Erm, time out perhaps chaps?
I'm not sure who has had the most vodka but maybe a coffee break, ( both sides of the Atlantic ) might lead to some calm...
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>> Erm, time out perhaps chaps?
You're a nice cat Humph. So is FMR actually, but he's easily upset.
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I couldn't resist checking. What happened was that NC accused Zero and me, quite wrongly, of being horrid to Rattle. Then he accused me, quite wrongly, of sniping at him and being rude. In the end I lost patience and was explicitly rude, calling him a PITA and saying he had too high an opinion of his own intelligence (he had. Intelligence is one thing, academic training is quite another, and they don't always go in tandem as it were).
Then instead of replying, he flounced. I didn't want him to, but I wasn't going to eat my heart out about it.
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Straight 8 required I think. Or is it flat 8? Or maybe a flat plane v8, with a harmonic crankshaft damper thingy?
Just trying to incite an engineer out of the woodwork/metal shavings:)
Last edited by: NortonES2 on Fri 18 Dec 15 at 17:46
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I read a very nice, concise article recently on something like How Stuff Works, that explained the geometry and timing that make straight-six the near-ideal configuration, why Vs work better with eight than six (and better still with 12), why 60° is preferable to 90° for a V6 but many makers (including Jaguar, I think) use 90° because it lets them make a V6 and a V8 out of the same basic design. And so on. Good stuff, but clearly I ought to find it again and read it properly.
My five-cylinder Volvo engine always sounded good - characterful, even musical, rather than super-smooth, but never rough and clattery like a four-cylinder diesel. The BMW six is different again: very quiet and smooth at polite revs, but with a real, hard-edged snarl above 3000 or so. Not strictly necessary, but entertaining.
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Straight eights are wonderfully smooth, but the very long crankshaft is a weakness.
A friend had a Buick Special (1948 perhaps) with a straight eight engine which he bought from some US airman at Brize Norton. Great fun but lethal handling. In the end he went up a tree in it after losing the tail definitively going up a twisty hill. No one badly hurt but the car was a writeoff.
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Straight on an unusual engine: tinyurl.com/ztmw3n6 24 cylinders though!
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Spellchecker sabotage! Straight should read Setright.
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I like my straight six, and happily accept the fuel penalty. Aren't VAG doing this 'cylinder on demand' thing whereby two shut down on a light throttle.
I wish three of mine would shut down when I'm cruising along in 6th at a steady indicated 75. Approximately.
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re the N_C saga, this was the last thread he was involved in before finally leaving the forum about 18 months ago.
www.car4play.com/forum/post/index.htm?t=17077
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>> re the N_C saga, this was the last thread he was involved in before finally
>> leaving the forum about 18 months ago.
>>
>> www.car4play.com/forum/post/index.htm?t=17077
Blimey, I got slagged off and I didn't even contribute.
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My reading of it is that he was making a general point, rather than one specific to that thread.
However what is regrettable is that a quality poster has left the building. On most websites that would not be an issue but it is here since the number of new members who join this forum on a monthly basis can be counted on the fingers of one foot.
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>>>Was it LJK Setright who claimed the straight six was intrinsically perfectly balanced?
>>>I used to think that until someone here (or maybe t'other side) put me right - it may have >>>been number cruncher. I wonder what happened to him?
>>>Anyway, straight sixes are inherently smoother than fours, but not quite perfect.
You may have been thinking of a V6 in the above respect.
Engines have both a rotational balance and a longitudinal one along the length of the crank.
Straight sixes are perfectly balanced in both respects hence their exceptional smoothness.
V6s are not smooth in the longitudinal sense and hence less smooth than a straight six.
V12s act as if two straight sixes together with smoother firing pulses so are exceptional.
5cyls inline have longitudinal vibration, as do 3cyls.
V8s can be of two basic variations and both give rise to more vibration than a straight six hence their slightly offbeat burble as opposed to the vroom of a straight six.
**This is a layman's lifetime held understanding which could perhaps be refined by an engineer (ha ha) but is basically correct.
Re NC... he was a very clever guy but there is a little truth in ACs comments... NC had that engineer/scientist's way in that he was happy to quickly dismiss valid observed experince if it didn't fit with his conventional theory/calculations.
Last edited by: Fenlander on Fri 18 Dec 15 at 22:16
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I like the sound of VAG's W12, used in the VW Phaeton, Audi A8 and Bentley - especially the cranking sound.
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I like the sound of VAG's W12, used in the VW Phaeton, Audi A8 and Bentley - especially the cranking sound.
Nah, Napier Lion for me. 24 litres, W12 and 'dropped' in a Bentley chassis.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ua-0wSn0azs
(Many other videos of this car).
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>>Straight sixes are perfectly balanced in both respects hence their exceptional smoothness.
I thought that only applied to boxers (tell that to 2CV and Beetle owners).
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It appliers to boxer six cyl engines as well as straight sixes.... sorry forgot the boxers as not on my usual radar.
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>> It appliers to boxer six cyl engines as well as straight sixes.... sorry forgot the boxers as not on my usual radar.
Heh heh... as in Porsche 911. But all flat engines are relatively smooth. Porsche 356 is a very nice engine. So were both my puttering Citroen flat twins. The howling flat 8 (or was it a 12?) in the Porsche 917 was pretty effective.
They seem to be expensive to make though, all that valve drive gear and two cylinder blocks and heads. And huge power-sapping fans for the air-cooled majority (Subaru flat fours are water cooled).
Last edited by: Armel Coussine on Sat 19 Dec 15 at 00:32
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It was a famous boast of Rolls-Royce in (I think) the 1930s that you could place a glass of water on the bonnet of one of their straight-sixes with the engine running, and the water wouldn't move.
I tried this when I had my 2.2 straight-six BMW Z3, and it came very close. I'd love another straight-six....
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Lots of vids of coins balancing on various 6, 8 and 12 cyl engines if you look on youchoob.
Here's one of an old Subaru SVX flat-6
www.youtube.com/watch?v=bIDSgtugNlQ
Last edited by: Lygonos on Sat 19 Dec 15 at 00:58
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I used to balance 50p coins on the Rover V8's I'd fiddled with.
Just saying :)
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I had a 2.6 liter Mercedes 260E - c 1988.. straight six. It was very smooth and quiet and surprisingly economical if you drove quietly. I never did - I averaged overall 23mpg. The BMW320I was also very smooth - but gutless..
The Rover P2 16 I had was a prewar design carried over to post war. Mine was 1946 and 2.1 liters fed by a huge twin choke Solex. It was very smooth once decoked and the sticking and burned out exhaust valve replaced. The following OISE Rover 75 range were also very smooth - the Rover 110 at the end of the range even had decent power. Pity they were so useless in snow (I lived in N Scotland at the time).
Tried a Subaru Outback with the 3 liter H6 engine... it was smooth with an odd exhaust beat.. Impressively fast for a big car.. ( I quite fancy a Tribecca which is in "lotsofcarforlittlemoney" territory.
Last edited by: madf on Sat 19 Dec 15 at 10:15
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>> I quite fancy a Tribecca
The Tribeca is worth looking at too.
:)
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I think the glass of water on the bonnet thing is to test the smoothness of your driving.
Any decent engine will idle without upsetting a glass of water on the bonnet.
Balancing it on the rocker or timing cover is another matter. Modern cars seem to have very spongy engine mounts. Part of the smoothness of old engines came from having them firmly bolted down on the chassis so they didn't rock about.
Also with more rigid mounts you can have a lower idling speed.
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>> Also with more rigid mounts you can have a lower idling speed.
And dancing mirrors and quivering steering wheel, not to mention a vibrating gear lever.
Last edited by: Zero on Sat 19 Dec 15 at 10:37
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>>And dancing mirrors and quivering steering wheel, not to mention a vibrating gear lever.
There e'e goes again, running down diesel engines.
:}
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>>> with more rigid mounts you can have a lower idling speed.
Perhaps known to some/many on here but my old 5-series has engine mounts that switch between hard and soft, I'm sure there will be other cars with similar arrangements. Mine has vacuum lines via a controller that alters their stiffness according to road speed, engine speed and temperature.
Fiendishly clever and adds to an already staggeringly refined diesel.
Last edited by: Fenlander on Sat 19 Dec 15 at 11:59
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To avoid being dragged into some housework I went out to check oi/top up screenwash.
I balanced a pound coin on the power steering reservoir of the 15yr old Forester Turbo (which is bolted to the inlet manifold, just to the left of the engine - is the only flat area I could find)
At idle the coin jiggled slightly but didn't fall. Blipping the throttle, and revving to 3-4k simply made the coin stand perfectly still.
Might be all modern petrol engines are like this. I'll maybe check the FRV and Kizashi (both straight-4s) later on :-)
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These days there is of course a "glass of water" app for your smartphone which uses the phone sensors to animate appropriate spillage. So you can see how smooth a driver you are. I don't know if it's sensitive enough to detect engine vibrations at standstill though, not having downloaded it.
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That wouldn't work on my 2.0 ltr Forester. Mechanic at the pain dealers said thems is not the smoothest of engines.
Ha! .. what would he know :)
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>>That wouldn't work on my 2.0 ltr Forester. Mechanic at the pain dealers said thems is not the smoothest of engines.
I guess he doesn't know what he's talking about. I can't remember the age of the Dogaru but I think it has the VVT engine, good for 156bhp and 7,000rpm and I bet it is sweet as a nut to the red line.
Other than the exhaust note which is due to exhaust manifolds of different lengths (largely sorted on latest engines hence the loss of the burble) the flat four is surprisingly smooth, certainly more than an in-line 4.
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Tis a bit lumpy on tickover and in D I've noticed. Probably requires some STP fuel injector cleaner or a good run down the A30 to Okehampton and back. I don't bother about it though TBH as it runs okay other than that.
Tight valve clearances on my engine would cause a lumpy tickover, but to adjust those it's an engine out job so I wont be investigating any further.
I did look at a 3rd gen. Forester last week ... no harm in looking ;)
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My 4 cylinder jazz is imperceptible at tickover... and at revs.. Most modern petrols are..
It's called design and computer controlled manufacture and modern alloys..
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And the input of Dr. Lanchester….. Many I4 engines rely on a balance shaft to smooth the vibes. Thus fitted, my old Honda 2.0 was smooth up to 6800 at which point the fun was curtailed electronically.
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>>my old Honda 2.0 was smooth up to 6800 at which point the fun was curtailed electronically
Limit was 8200rpm on my old Civic and it was smoother after VTEC chimed in at 4500 and silky from 6000 to the red line.
That wasn't even the ultimate iteration of the B-engine by some margin (Aussie Type-R engine had 11:1 compression vs 10:1 and 199hp @8200rpm vs 169hp @7600rpm on mine):
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honda_B_engine#B18C1
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K series was a little tame in comparison then! Mine was K20A3 I believe: did think about the Type R but wussed out…..
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The Toyota 1JZ straight six in the Soarer is fantastically smooth, much more so than the 4.0l six Cherokee I had years ago.
I'm also running a V70 with the D5 engine alongside it now. A bit gruff for a barge to be honest, but does sound great when pushed.
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Well I am on my third BMW 'six' and whilst fuel economy is not great (I could improve it if i wanted to) I absolutely love the engine in fact you take it for granted until you get into a four pot car and wonder why they sound and feel so awful even if they perform well.
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A lot depends on the installation, Pezzer. The LEC has a four-cylinder diesel, but you don't really hear it above pootling speed. It is a pretty grumbly old thing, though - the same engine with less insulation in a C220 CDI would be a deal-breaker.
There's some hand-wringing on more obsessive forums than this one about BMW's steady move away from six-cylinder engines; the new equivalent to my 325d is a 425d with a 2.0 four instead of the 3.0 six. I'm sure it's perfectly pleasant to cruise behind too - and in any case in 15 years everything will be electric and smoothness will be a given.
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This helps ( a lot ) if you don't like the sound of your engine...
m.youtube.com/watch?v=1cQh1ccqu8M
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Ah, I see (or hear) your point, Humph. Yes, I'm not generally the type to drive along savouring the engine note either.
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>> This helps ( a lot ) if you don't like the sound of your engine...
No offence Humph, but I'd rather listen to a straight six, or even the quite decent and muted sound of the Chrysler's transverse four... Very choosy with music, me.
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"But you don't really hear it " but you see that's part of what I love about the petrol six the sound.
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Curses...I'm missing my old 328 now.
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Sweetness of straight sixes - Runfer D'Hills
