Prompted by Bromp's comment in the VW thread, what are the panel's thoughts on Citroën's decision to take its chevrons off the DS range?
Considering previous re-brandings, Minis have never worn a BMW badge, and many buyers probably don't even know they're made by BMW. On the other hand, most people seem to know that Lexus is Toyota and seem not to mind; there are markets where the same cars wear Toyota badges. But just as the DS range seemed to be re-establishing Citroën as a maker of stylish, design-led, even aspirational machinery - after all those discounted driving school hacks and (sorry, Bromp) Berlingos - it goes and cuts the apron strings.
I've never had a Citroën but I have come close a couple of times, and it certainly wasn't the badge that put me off - although I wish they hadn't rounded the chevrons. Does that make me unusual?
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Some makers have managed the new baby syndrome in the UK, BMW with mini for one, Toyota with Lexus, and to a certain extent MB with Smart, tho the later has had many failures along the way to expand the concept, and to this day is still stuck with the same looking smart car.
They all however have one basic defacto requirement, models that have never been branded as something else.
What we have here is the ludicrous situation where last week your car was a model of Citroen, and this week the same model is now a DS. HTF can you create brand differentiation and up the value like that?
Its about as bright as renaming your car company loads of times during its life - step forward BMC/Austin Rover/British Leyland/Leyland Cars/Rover Cars.
Last edited by: Zero on Mon 7 Dec 15 at 09:42
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A friend of mine who bought a brand new DS has a rusty bonnet three months down the line. Apparently another "they all do that sir" situation. They need to sort crap stuff like that out before going all designer...
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A Lexus being the same under the skin as a Toyota is fine, provided that Toyotas are well regarded as to engineering and reliability. The starting point for Toyota was as a manufacturer with a good reputation, but with no share of the 'premium' market (luxury/prestige or people with more money than sense, dependent on your point of view).
Citroen's problem if there is one with this idea is that it is starting from a different place - its cars are sold on price, and have no great reputation for reliability (regardless of actual reliability). Step one was to introduce the 'design' range, differently dressed versions of its range presumably intended to allow it better to penetrate segments/demographics in which it was relatively weak, and/or to charge higher prices.
I would expect Citroen to
- separate/distance the brand from its parent as much as possible, including selling from separate sites.
- as well as creating a new positioning for DS, to tweak the market positioning of the Citroen brand - focused on who Citroen buyers/choosers really are, country by country, and their reasons for choosing Citroen.
The main risks will be
- that DS does not deliver the promise - an early reputation for poor reliability or service will take a long time and a lot of money to correct.
- that the changes cause it to lose share in the markets it already has - the classic repositioning/rebranding error is to lose previously loyal customers and fail to get new ones. That is harder than it sounds and research doesn't always help; you can do a ton of iterative research aimed at making your brand acceptable to as wide an audience as possible, and end up removing what was the essence, the individuality, the uniqueness of your brand - creating something that is offensive to no-one, but has no special appeal either.
Whatever transpires will be claimed as a success, no doubt. DS will grow, because it will have budgets behind it, and if Citroen shrinks then it will be presented as confirmation that something needed to be done.
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They may make a go of the DS brand, but if I were managing PSA I'd be more worried about the lack of distinction between Citroen and Peugeot.
Citroens used to be quirky and quite cheap - the first one I remember as a child in the 1950s was the splendidly eccentric 'traction avant' with the gearlever sprouting, uniquely but effectively, from the middle of the dashboard. This was followed by the immortal DS 19.
Peugeots were more solid, reliable cars - a sort of French equivalent of Volvos or pre-BMC Austins. The 203, 403 and 404 had a reputation for lasting forever. But now what's the distinction between, say, a C4 and a 308?
Perhaps what PSA currently does best is the models which are unlike their 'opposite number' such as the Citroen Picassos and Peugeot GTIs. I think some rationalising is needed: one of the factors in British Leyland's downfall was that they had too many models in competition with each other - Maxi, Marina, Dolomite and Allegro.
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>> Perhaps what PSA currently does best is the models which are unlike their 'opposite number'
>> such as the Citroen Picassos and Peugeot GTIs. I think some rationalising is needed: one
>> of the factors in British Leyland's downfall was that they had too many models in
>> competition with each other - Maxi, Marina, Dolomite and Allegro.
>>
PSA may have some model overlap, but it is nothing compared to VW Group!
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"PSA may have some model overlap, but it is nothing compared to VW Group!"
True, but VW Group have taken a bit more trouble over positioning their products in the market. The A3, Golf and Octavia are all sales successes. SEAT have for some time seemed one brand too many, but recently the Leon has been getting itself a following as a cheaper, mechanically identical Golf for those who don't want the space of the Octavia.
If PSA see a difference in nature / objectives between the C3 and 208, C4 and 308, and C5 and 508, I don't think they've been very successful in communicating it to the market.
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>>most people seem to know that Lexus is Toyota
Had a giraffe last week. Neighb [77 year old female of the species] had on a fleece with "Lexus" emblazoned across the front. She didn't know what a Lexus was, but she knew ooh Doc Martin was :)
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She didn't know what a Lexus was...
Precisely why Lexus UK has product-placed its cars into so many unlikely roles on TV; I mean, country doctor in an LS? Really?
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I cannot think of any reason why I would buy a Citroen. The last one that had any kind of distinctive "Citroen-ness" was the XM.
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Last Citroen I had was a 2006 C2 VTS - vastly inferior in every way to my 2012 Swift Sport.
(although both of their fuel computers lied like an MP's expenses form)
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>> I cannot think of any reason why I would buy a Citroen. The last one
>> that had any kind of distinctive "Citroen-ness" was the XM.
I'd say the BX retained the Cit factor in its shape, hydropneumatics, and even in Mk2 guise off beat controls. Buttons on either side of the binnacle for fogs, rear wipe etc were at your fingertips and the stalks' functions were kept single/simple.
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>> >> I cannot think of any reason why I would buy a Citroen. The last
>> one
>> >> that had any kind of distinctive "Citroen-ness" was the XM.
>>
>> I'd say the BX retained the Cit factor in its shape, hydropneumatics, and even in
>> Mk2 guise off beat controls. Buttons on either side of the binnacle for fogs, rear
>> wipe etc were at your fingertips and the stalks' functions were kept single/simple.
The C5 has retained some of Citroens less desirable (its not quirky - really its not) habits, the steering wheel, 20 fiddly little buttons on it.
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How's your C4 Cactus purchase going, Z?
Ideal car for my Missus, I reckon, looking at the scratches and scrapes on the Mazda and the occasional shrubbery recovered from under its front bumper. And WillDeBeest's, what with the LEC respray. And Humph's, what with the disappearing door mirror situation.
I'd go for yellow if I were you.
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>> How's your C4 Cactus purchase going, Z?
Alas the (130k miles 8 years old no body damage or missing mirrors) lancer is still galloping along.
Much as i want another car, I can't justify it.
The weight of dog hair in the boot is playing havoc with the rule consumption tho
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Ah come on now Z, where are your man maths?
Is rule consumption something to do with the missus saying no? She's got a new Fester, right?
Go on go on go on.
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They're for young people anyway. He'd not look right in one.
Lancer is far more suitable.
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I saw one in a light beige colour with brown bump panels. It looked like used toilet paper stuck to a bum.
Colour has to be chosen very carefully.
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Those body panel thingies remind me of the black vinyl sofa an aunt had in the 1960s.
There's an all black Cactus which is often parked near our office. Looks ok actually. Although it might be helped a lot by the driver being a rather picturesque female fitness instructor from the gym across the road. Never has Lycra been so successfully worn...
;-)
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To go from a Japanese car to a French one is not something I would do.
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At various times, Melty, you've ruled out French cars, diesel cars, electric cars, BMWs and probably some others that I've forgotten. Care to save some time with a short burst on the things you would consider?
};---)
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>>At various times, Melty, you've ruled out French cars, diesel cars, electric cars, BMWs and >>probably some others that I've forgotten. Care to save some time with a short burst on the
>> things you would consider?
Petrol Japanese. Some petrol Fords very good as well.
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>> Petrol Japanese.
>>
Oof, brave. Wouldn't touch one of those dodgy 1.8 VVTi Toyotas. Big oil related trouble.
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The difference is that when the Japanese do cock up:
1. They stick their hand in the air and admit it
2. They sort it out
3. They stand by their customers
4. It doesn't happen very often any way
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Honda were famous (or infamous) for doing this with their bikes in the 70s and 80s. Suspect cam chain adjusters, dodgy cam shafts....
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>> The difference is that when the Japanese do cock up:
>>
>> 1. They stick their hand in the air and admit it
>
they do
>> 2. They sort it out
rarely
>> 3. They stand by their customers
they do
>> 4. It doesn't happen very often any way
quite a bit actually
They rely on 1 & 3 - seems to work
Last edited by: Zero on Wed 9 Dec 15 at 19:55
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Damn yeah, thats tempting. Its not a numpty bottom of the range jobby either.
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Wish I could get a 328 Touring for that money. Or even a Leon ST estate.
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Just over an archer upfront as inital payment though, read the small print!
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Ja, zwei big ones up front does make it 180 a month over the term.
Hmm.
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and 8k pa is a bit short for me.
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Friend who bought one new last summer was at the Dealer today. His bonnet has rusted - not good.
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Is this the same friend who had the rusty bonnet on a 3 month old DS in your post earlier on this thread Rob ? If so they must be very unlucky !!
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Same friend. Sorry I've been in the twilight zone - Birmingham..
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>> and 8k pa is a bit short for me.
>>
It goes wrong after that..
Citroen:
Car Is Trouble Really Often Even Now.
Last edited by: madf on Wed 9 Dec 15 at 17:38
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Plan Every Unscheduled Grounding Every Other Tuesday.
Even that's better than:
Dead Stop.
I'll stick with Some Kind Of Downmarket Audi.
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Citroen - DS: really something separate? - Zero
