Need some urgent advice here chaps.
A young chap came to look at my Saab today, with the intention of buying it. After a look round, nothing deeply mechanical, he didn't even check the oil, he agreed to buy it for the asking price of 1250 euros. I threw in a set of winter wheels (tyres included), which were in excellent condition being only 2 years old, which I had valued separately at 250 euros but was prepared to include in the sale. So, he pays me cash, signs an Austrian standard sales contract (legally needed for him th re-register the car, which is why there's a standard one) which states that he's bought the car as visually inspected and test driven (around 300 metres, but that's his problem), without guarantee or warranty as to condition. He gave me the 1250 euros in cash. So far so good.
A bit about the car. It has 230,000 miles on the clock, and to cut a long story short was running fine when we last used it on Tuesday, the day our new car was delivered. We made a round trip of around 120 miles to Linz last Sunday, cruising at around 80mph, and around a month ago we made a 400km round trip to Vienna, 4 up, once again cruising around 80 with no problems on either journey.
So, back to today. I had a text message around one and a half hours after he left the house to say the the car is "kaputt" and the engine is covered in oil all round, plus it's smoking badly, neither of which were the case when he left our house. He had driven home and taken it for a blast along the motorway it seems when "it" all happened. I believe it's still drivable and I've since spoken to him. He's bitterly disappointed and so am I. I've told him that, as a first step to finding a solution, I'll call round tomorrow (over an hour's drive each way) to take a look. The big unknown is how he treated it on the motorway.
Legally, I believe I could walk away with the cash. Morally, that is a bit of a carp way to behave. It seems to me there are a number of possible scenarios:
1) A pipe could have come off the turbo, causing loss of power, which is relatively easy to fix, up to say 100 euros, and I'd be prepared to pay the whole cost of the fix
2) Something more major could have happened (e.g. blown turbo), in which case I'd be prepared to make a contribution towards the cost of the fix, let's say 50%
3) The engine damage could cost more to fix than the value of the car. In this case I *could* give him all his money back and relieve him of car and the winter wheels and tyres. But it will cost me around 300 euros to get the car back to my house, and then I have a wreck in the garden. The alternative here is that he sells it to a "we buy any car" type of person and I refund the difference between what he gets and what he paid me plus I keep possession of the wheels and tyres.
I'll know more tomorrow when I've had a look, but I'd be interested in what the team thinks about what I should do, and whether my proposals are sensible in the circumstances.
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I think you have been very reasonable so far. Not sure what else you can really do.
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I haven't got into any negotiaton with, nor made any proposals to, the buyer yet, other than to take a look and see what the reality of the situation is, i.e. is the engine really blown or is it just an oil breather pipe come off for example?
Last edited by: Mike H on Sat 24 Oct 15 at 17:55
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The first thing is surely to try and establish exactly what happened.
I was once sitting in a services car park when a Volvo 240 pulled up beside me. It had oily smoke pouring from under the bonnet, reeked of oil, and on lifting the bonnet oil was dripping everywhere. The woman driver had no idea what had happened, but was understandably alarmed.
One look showed the oil filler cap was missing. Someone had checked and topped up the oil an hour ago, and had obviously left off the cap or not fitted it properly.
I improvised a cap from the end of a plastic drinks bottle, checked and topped up the oil, wiped away the worst of the oil on the manifold and pipe, and warned that it would take a while for the oil to burn off. And of course it needed a proper cap asap as mine would certainly leak.
But equally it could have been a total disaster and a wrecked engine.
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>> He had driven home and taken it for a blast along the motorway it seems when "it" all happened.
>> The big unknown is how he treated it on the motorway.
How many here would take a 230,000-mile jalopy for a 'blast along the motorway'? My guess is the punter used an extremely heavy foot, never a good idea in a high-mileage jalopy with dirty oil or even new clean oil. Probably did it with the engine cold too, another absolute no-no. .
Modern cars can do astonishing mileages, but they need sympathetic driving for that. Your punter damaged the car with his crap driving, and you should let him take the financial hit.
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>> How many here would take a 230,000-mile jalopy for a 'blast along the motorway'? My
>> guess is the punter used an extremely heavy foot, never a good idea in a
>> high-mileage jalopy with dirty oil or even new clean oil. Probably did it with the
>> engine cold too, another absolute no-no. .
>>
>> Modern cars can do astonishing mileages, but they need sympathetic driving for that. Your punter
>> damaged the car with his crap driving, and you should let him take the financial
>> hit.
>>
Well, it certainly wasn't cold as he lives over an hour's drive away, and that's the nearest motorway.
The oil was around 2000 miles old, fully synth, new filter, changed every 6000 miles for the last 8 years and 160,000 miles by me personally.
And as I said, depends what he means by a blast. We regularly drive it at 130km/h-ish on the motorway and it hasn't given us any issues.
It's so tempting to just forget about it and keep his money. He did say that he had previously owned a 300bhp Impreza (at least, that's what I think he said, it was certainly an Impreza), and I suspected that he gave it more beans than one would feel was reasonable in an older car. But we'll never know. I can swear on the Bible it was OK when it left me :-(
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I'd go the webuyanycar route and offer any difference if it's not immediately obvious what's wrong.
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Is there any chance the buyer is "at it" and there is nothing wrong with the car and he is just hoping to wring some money out of you?
And the fact that you are willing to travel an hour to see it has screwed his plans!!
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I think you are being more than reasonable in going to see him.
However, as you say the car was not a knacker when you saw the last of it and you have his own admission that "something happened on the motorway" perhaps after he redlined in every gear, who knows?
It then seems that even with a "kaputt" engine he somehow manged to leave the motorway and get home perhaps making the engine even more kaput in the process.
I would possibly be a little short on sympathy myself and even less likely to put my hand in my own pocket if I suspected any stupidity had occurred.
Whats the worse he can do to you after signing that contract?
As always
Mark
Last edited by: Mark on Sat 24 Oct 15 at 19:09
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>> Whats the worse he can do to you after signing that contract?
>>
>>
Visit our house one dark night and kick the s*** out of our new car with his mates?
He's very wrong footed, and I would be within my rights to tell him to take a hike. If he took me to court, given that he might have legal protection, it's difficult to know which way it would go. I'm guessing he hasn't got a hell's chance of getting his money back legally, but I really need to talk to the Austrian friend (an insurance agent) who detailed the buying and selling process to me, and gave me the original sales contract form. Unfortunately it's Saturday, he's away with family, and it's a public holiday on Monday!
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>> Is there any chance the buyer is "at it" and there is nothing wrong with
>> the car and he is just hoping to wring some money out of you?
>> And the fact that you are willing to travel an hour to see it has
>> screwed his plans!!
>>
No, he's quite happy for me to visit him. On reflection, I think he's just pushed the old girl too hard, seems he's had a couple of Imprezas and I think he's a bit of a boy racer - but I guess it would be difficult to prove.
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>> as I said, depends what he means by a blast. We regularly drive it at 130km/h-ish on the motorway and it hasn't given us any issues.
There's a real difference between a heavy foot from low engine speeds and easing up to an 80mph cruise on a light throttle all the way.
The first will age an engine and its lubricant before their time. The second will get the best out of them over a long period, minimizing driver stress at the same time, win-win.
Er, which seems to make more sense to you?
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I've no idea how it turned out in the end as I got bored, but almost exactly the same thing happened to a seller of a S2000 in the UK. So much so I wondered if this was going to a repeat until I got into the thread. Might be worth trawling Pistonheads, although the thread was degenerating into a blame the OP for something as is the wont of Pistonheads.
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The only way I can imagine an S2000 engine can be killed on the road would be fudging a gearchange (ie. 9000rpm in 4th, and finding 3rd instead of 5th).
Wouldn't surprise me if same happened in OP's old car.
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(the giveaway will be a cracked block/sump as a piece of crank/piston/con-rod became detached)
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>> The only way I can imagine an S2000 engine can be killed on the road
>> would be fudging a gearchange (ie. 9000rpm in 4th, and finding 3rd instead of 5th).
>>
>> Wouldn't surprise me if same happened in OP's old car.
>>
It was an auto, which should have prevented that sort of problem ;-)
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My legal expert says she like the idea of scenario 3b. "The alternative here is that he sells it to a "we buy any car" type of person and I refund the difference between what he gets and what he paid me plus I keep possession of the wheels and tyres" But I think you need to tootle down there to see the car and weigh the situation up from there.
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Silly sod has gunned it, ragged it and bust it.
No sympathy. Needs to learn a lesson.
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Not your problem.
Legally, most certainly not your problem. You didn't represent the vehicle as something it was not, or misrepresent yourself.
Morally, most certainly not your problem. You didn't con him or know it would go bang. What do you feel is your moral failing?
But, you feel guilty. So you're trying to make yourself feel better. Had someone seen home on the way home and offered him double for the car he'd just bought, would he have returned to give you some extra? Would you have expected him to?
Its unfortunate and I'd feel sorry for him, but that would be it.
If, on the other hand, you feel he'll come back and beat you up and smash your new car and otherwise extract revenge, then let's not pretend about finer feelings, lets talk about self-preservation.
I wouldn't go anywhere near him or visit the car or try, you are just setting expectations and admitting feelings of guilt. Almost suggesting that you do feel you did something wrong.
If he would like advice, then he should ask you and you should be granting a favour.
No, I do not think your approach is sensible, I think you are setting yourself up.
Frankly I'd wash my hands, if it was me. Provided I felt comfortable I had not tried to misrepresent or mislead.
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I wrote a lengthy detailed comment and then got phone called away before i pressed 'go'
Returned to find that i have been 'usurped', so i deleted, but ...
Basically my comment mirrored 'No FM2R', (and others)
A) He's a bad person - go forth and multiply!
B) He's naive, and/or unlucky - life's a beach, whatever, you're not his mother !
Either way, not your problem.
Don't beat yourself up, you have no reason, bank the money !
P.S. i would def. have sold the winter wheels/tyres seperately - you are too nice !!
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I'll agree with the two posts above. When you buy an old high mileage car it isn't going to be a long term vehicle - you know that when you buy it. Whether it goes bang two hours or two years down the line is the luck of the draw. You were honest when you sold it and there's no way you could have known it was hours from death.
Buyer beware.
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As an aside, just be thankful you didn't sell it to a friend; Like, for example, some poor bloke who had already got a Saab with a b*****ed gearbox.
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>> As an aside, just be thankful you didn't sell it to a friend; Like, for
>> example, some poor bloke who had already got a Saab with a b*****ed gearbox.
I suppose we can finally put this" SAABs are wonderfull pieces of engineering " myth to bed then,?
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Thanks for all the useful comments, particularly Mark(RLBS). I have taken on board that I have no legal obligation, and that the car was, to the best of my knowledge and belief, sound when it left as witnessed by the two recent longer motorway runs. Whilst I could just walk away, I've decided to go ahead with the visit today, although it might be hard to see my cherished car not looking it's best :-(
Assuming that something is actually broken (rather than perhaps just a turbo pipe blown off) I shall tell him that, while I have sympathy for him, I believe that he has not driven it with the sympathy that is required of an older, high mileage car, and that he has more than likely damaged it by driving it too hard. I will then offer to buy back the winter wheels for 250 euros. I will mak no other offer, and make it clear that he either accepts my offer on the spot or the deal is off.
It would be better if I could take a native German speaker with me, but unfortunately no chance of that today.
Last edited by: Mike H on Sun 25 Oct 15 at 08:13
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>> It would be better if I could take a native German speaker with me, but
>> unfortunately no chance of that today.
>>
Would it not be best to wait until one is available?
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SQ 4 LB
>> Would it not be best to wait until one is available?
where are you going to find one of those in Austria at short notice?
Last edited by: VxFan on Sun 25 Oct 15 at 19:47
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>> where are you going to find one of those in Austria at short notice?
>>
Absolutely.
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SQ 4 LB
>> Would it not be best to wait until one is available?
>>
Not really an option. It's a holiday weekend (with a public holiday tomorrow), it's short notice, and I can't wait because we have along-planned drive to the UK on Wednesday. It's not such a big deal, I coped well enough with the sale. I think "go forth and multiply" is pretty much the same in any language!
Last edited by: VxFan on Sun 25 Oct 15 at 19:47
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>> Not really an option. It's a holiday weekend (with a public holiday tomorrow), it's short
>> notice, and I can't wait because we have along-planned drive to the UK on Wednesday.
>> It's not such a big deal, I coped well enough with the sale. I think
>> "go forth and multiply" is pretty much the same in any language!
>>
I was just thinking along the lines of friends or a neighbour etc?
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SQ 4 LB
>> I suppose we can finally put this" SAABs are wonderfull pieces of engineering " myth
>> to bed then,?
>>
On the basis of a car with 230000 miles on it going bang? And mine with an auto box used in many diifferent maufacturers' cars going pop, probably because it wasn't serviced on time? If you like.
Last edited by: VxFan on Sun 25 Oct 15 at 19:48
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>> On the basis of a car with 230000 miles on it going bang? And mine
>> with an auto box used in many diifferent maufacturers' cars going pop, probably because it
>> wasn't serviced on time? If you like.
Not a great appreciator of irony are we.
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I suppose the rules of "buyer beware" apply in Austria like they do here. What exactly does this "contract" levy on you if this sort f things happen ?
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>> I suppose the rules of "buyer beware" apply in Austria like they do here. What
>> exactly does this "contract" levy on you if this sort f things happen ?
>>
Yes. My OP details the content of the mandatory sales contract. Basically it's a private sale as seen, tried and approved, without any guarantee or liability as to defects, and all this is written down on paper. We've each signed two copies in agreement of this, and we now have a copy each.
Last edited by: Mike H on Sun 25 Oct 15 at 08:53
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>>
>> On the basis of a car with 230000 miles on it going bang? And mine
>> with an auto box used in many diifferent maufacturers' cars going pop, probably because it
>> wasn't serviced on time? If you like.
Could you chaps put these remarks in the proper SAAB thread? It is desperately in need of posts! It is languishing at a measly 802!
Come on! Get a grip!
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We still don't know whether it's actually kaput, or merely making a lot of smoke because it's had a pint of oil sprayed over the exhaust.
Get him to check that first and describe what is actually wrong.
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Tough. It was bought as seen. Any involvement would infer some kind of liability. My one and only communication with the purchaser would be to tell him to take it to a garage, or get a mechanically minded friend to look at it.
I have bought lots of older cars privately, several off good friends, and wouldn't dream of contacting the seller if something went wrong.
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>>Tough. It was bought as seen.
>> I have bought lots of older cars privately, several off good friends, and wouldn't dream
>> of contacting the seller if something went wrong.
So, if the engine of a car you had bought just a couple of hours earlier went caput as you were driving it home, you wouldn't be looking for a little goodwill from the seller?
The OP seems to have the right attitude, and he's the sort of chap I wouldn't mind buying a car from.
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>>you wouldn't be looking for a little goodwill from the seller?
Yeah, just like if I unexpectedly managed to sell it for a £1,000 profit 2 hours later when I would have driven back to the seller and given him half.
Not.
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The purchaser is possibly a mechanically unsympathetic Richard head and I would not entertain a visit to his premises unless 'accompanied'. As someone said ( poss' LL) it may infer an admission of liability.
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Just be aware that this could be a scam.
Bloke was unwilling to negotiate a discount. Gets a few hundred miles away and has buyers remorse. Decides to try to get his cash back by damaging the car.
Alternatively he could have heavy mates around the corner when you turn up to pressure you to refund the money or just rob you.
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>> Alternatively he could have heavy mates around the corner when you turn up to pressure
>> you to refund the money or just rob you.
As the OP has not been seen or heard of since he set off, I assume that is what has happened!
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>>As the OP has not been seen or heard of since he set off, I assume that is what has happened!
I reckon it's a set up and he has been abducted by aliens.
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I think the OP ( with due respect to him) has the wrong attitude. Morally correct of course to feel sorry for the purchaser. I would too. But the car was still driveable and it has been insinuated that it may have been thrashed... How fast will it go mister? Let's see on the way home.
If it was an old dear who you think would not thrash it within an inch of its life then I would try to resolve the situation to an amicable agreement. Possibly. In this situation I wouldn't.
If I had paid a friend 1250 euros and it went bang I am man enough not to go bleating to the seller, suck it up and put it down to experience. Worse things happen at sea.
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Sorry about the late update, time was not on my side.
So, met the buyer at a petrol station, and went off to the lockup where the car had been put. He had just the one mate waiting, who provided a bit of weight but little else. A quick visual examination revealed little except an amount of oil sprayed under bonnet looking suspiciously like a head gasket failure pressurising the engine. Seems he'd taken it up to around 160kph/100mph on the motorway, it went bang and lost power, and he drove it around a further 5 miles to the next exit and put it in the lockup. Not helping his case here. It doesn't look like a deliberate ploy following a change of mind re the purchase. Interestingly he met me in a different car with the same number plates (don't ask, it's the way things work here), an oldish Audi with advertising stickers on.
I told him I wouldn't be giving him his money back. I offered to give him 250 euros back in exchange for the winter wheels and tyres which he initially refused, but accepted just as I walked away to leave. His next move is to get the exact cause of failure diagnosed, then go to a solicitor. It was all relatively amicable, and we shook hands on parting. I await developments.
Last edited by: Mike H on Sun 25 Oct 15 at 22:48
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Assuming that the law relating to a private sale of goods is the same where you are as in the UK, the solicitor will refer him to a taxidermist, and charge him for the privilege.
You've already done more than you needed to, so you should no longer have a conscience about it. My sympathies are with the poor old Saab!
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Never heard that one before Avant. I must remember it.
But well done to the OP for having the conscience to go and look at his ex car. I like to think of myself as a 'do as you would be done by' sort of person and that action far exceeds what I would have done.
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Hopefully the end of the saga. To cut a long story short, someone has offered my buyer a sum for the car, and I've refunded him 200 euros. No need to, but it seemed a decent thing to do, as we're both sort of happy with the deal. It's also clear why he didn't stop on the motorway after the head gasket (or whatever) blew - he wasn't insured and the car wasn't legally registered.
But I can now sleep easy, and he's sort of OK with things.
Last edited by: Mike H on Tue 27 Oct 15 at 19:12
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You're an okay geezer in my books Michael - unlike the taxidermist merchants ... you're not a dog owner by any chance are you.
:}
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>> You're an okay geezer in my books Michael - unlike the taxidermist merchants ... you're
>> not a dog owner by any chance are you.
>>
>> :}
>>
I am the personal servant of a cat :-D
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I rest my case about animal owners:)
Pat
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>> I rest my case about animal owners:)
>>
dun up like a kipper.
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Are you really so cynical Z, or is this just an online persona? Bet you're a real pussycat with the family ;-)
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So let me understand this...
You sell a bangernomics value car with paperwork evidence it was as inspected and tested then within hours guy says it's faulty.
You do a 2+hrs round trip to check and in the end refund him 450 euros... OK you got the winter wheels back but effectively that's what the cost of the car to him has been reduced by.
You did this despite finding out he was an uninsured chancer... who has probably with no effort on his part other than spraying some used engine oil around under the bonnet has taken you for 450euros.
Zero cynical... yes usually... but he's probably right in this case.
Last edited by: Fenlander on Wed 28 Oct 15 at 09:31
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>>So let me understand this...
You sell a bangernomics value car with paperwork evidence it was as inspected and tested then within hours guy says it's faulty.
You do a 2+hrs round trip to check and in the end refund him 450 euros... OK you got the winter wheels back but effectively that's what the cost of the car to him has been reduced by.
You did this despite finding out he was an uninsured chancer... who has probably with no effort on his part other than spraying some used engine oil around under the bonnet has taken you for 450euros.
Zero cynical... yes usually... but he's probably right in this case.<<
Yup.
Usual disclaimer. Mike H is not me masquerading under another name. Whoever he is can just be bothered to turn up here more than I.
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>> Are you really so cynical Z, or is this just an online persona? Bet you're
>> a real pussycat with the family ;-)
Terribly allergic to cats.
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Well, I don;t know if I would have done the same, but you seem to have done the decent thing for sensible reasons.
I think the key thing about it is that you are "sort of happy" with the situation and you "sort of weren't" before, so a result of sorts.
Walking away comfortable is probably the best you were going to get out of this.
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>> Walking away comfortable is probably the best you were going to get out of this.
>>
Well, it's a bit better than that. It's not as if you were a car dealer having just lost your margin on a bad buy - you got lots of use out of the car yourself, you were offloading a high-ish miler (not in Volvo terms :) ) for a modest amount, and if it had gone wrong in your ownership you'd have been stuck with a non-runner to dispose of at greatly reduced price.
And as a bonus you can now feel good about having done the more-than-decent thing.
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I agree with all of the recent posts. Personally I would have taken the same action as Z, and not given it a second thought under the circumstances. But, we are all different, so the OP resolved the situation and is now reasonably happy with the outcome. He offloaded a car, had some inconvenience, but feels happy with the final situation. That is the main thing. Who are we to say what should or should not have been done so long as the final outcome is to his own personal satisfaction.
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>> it seemed a decent thing to do
Top man, Mike!
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I shall get my reward in heaven. Sooner would be good...
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>> I shall get my reward in heaven. Sooner would be good...
>>
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Getting the reward or going to heaven? :)
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Engine damage within 2 hours of selling car - RattleandSmoke
