Looking at the basket price for my caravan tyres on a certain fast-fasten website, there's the option of nitrogen for £1 a wheel.
The 'information' button brings this up - (my underscores)
"Have your tyres filled with Nitrogen and increase tyre life by up to 25%, improve road holding and handling and increase fuel economy by up to 5%!
Filling your tyres with nitrogen may seem odd but that's exactly what motor sport and aviation professionals have been doing for years. Nitrogen is completely safe for use in tyres. And by using it in a mixture with oxygen to inflate your tyres the theory is that it's possible to negate the issue of slow deflation, which is caused by oxygen slowly infusing through the tyre wall from the atmosphere.
Having a tyre that does not deflate means you will improve fuel consumption and will probably improve safety standards too. It's not yet standard practice but Nitrogen could well be here to stay as a result.
Nitrogen inflation should only be carried out by professionals and should not be directly inhaled."
Using it in a mixture with oxygen? Isn't that called air? Deflating because of oxygen 'infusing' through the tyre wall from the air?
How does rubbish like this get on to the website of a national company?
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Because they want the quid.
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Maybe I should started offering to fit EMF coils on power leads into PCs and charge £20 for it by claiming it imrpoves the life of the PC. I am sure it will be the quickest way to get into trouble with trading standards but the big companies often get away with it.
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Quite right Mike - how could I be so dim?
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Well now here's a thing. I agree with you Manatee, wholeheartedly. But....
The two front tyres on my Qashqai lasted only 16000 miles the first time and were checked for pressure regularly etc.
I replaced them with exactly the same brand and model of tyre ( Bridgestone Duellers )
This was at Kwik Fit. I noticed that they had put green dustcaps on the valves and asked them why. It was explained that this was to indicate that the tyres had been filled with Nitrogen. OK, so big deal I thought and more or less forgot about it.
However, that was 24000 miles ago and the tyres still have plenty of tread left. Also, when I check the pressures they never move.
Still not sure if I believe the witchcraft but something is different with these tyres.
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Good grief, you've done 40,000 miles in it already?
Maybe you've started slowing down for corners, or lighting your tyres up at the lights?
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That's the thing, I'm so busy now, if anything I have to admit to pushing on a bit harder again these days. Having said that, it's almost impossible to break traction in it unless on snow or ice. It's a 4x4 diesel auto slusher with traction control doofers so it just grips whatever kind of hooliganism it is treated to.
I don't get it either. Maybe there's something in it. Dunno.
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From a technical point only Nitrogen molecules are larger than those of air and will keep a tyre inflated longer.Its used nationwide in Germany by most tyre fitting units including ATU which is probably the biggest in Europe.Thats all I have to say personally I have managed with air without problems for many years.
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most of these machines are imported from china
myself and a colleague considered importing them last year and punting them onto smaller tyre bays but realised it was too big an investment for them to swallow
we were rather deflated at the time
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So that's what green dust caps mean. I saw some recently on a Focus and wondered if they were those deflation indicating things.
JH
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>>The two front tyres on my Qashqai lasted only 16000 miles the first time
Perhaps tyre manufacturers are taking a leaf out of the book of printer manufacturers, but let's not give them ideas.
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>>That's exactly what motor sport and aviation professionals have been doing for years.
>>
IIRC that is true. I understood it was a safety feature especially on aircraft where, in the event of a fire, a high pressure source of oxygen is to be avoided
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In aircraft tyres, you want to fill the tyre with something that is a known and repeatable composition wherever the tyre is filled, you want it to be dry [you certainly don't want any water to freeze at altitude], and you want to be absolutely sure it's inert. Nitrogen fits the bill.
At work, we will purge electronic parts or assemblies, and seal them in with dry Nitrogen if we are going to store them for any period of time and there's any question of atmospheric air causing damage.
In racing tyres, particularly F1, where tyre pressure when hot is a very important criterion, having a gas of known composition removes one extra unknown from the calculation which leads to a specification of an inflation pressure at a known lower temperature.
In road cars, it's complete BS, but, people pay for it.
Last edited by: Number_Cruncher on Sat 17 Jul 10 at 18:57
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>> In racing tyres, particularly F1, where tyre pressure when hot is a very important criterion,
>> having a gas of known composition removes one extra unknown from the calculation which leads
>> to a specification of an inflation pressure at a known lower temperature.
>>
>> In road cars, it's complete BS, but, people pay for it.
>>
+1000.
Road tyres would never get to the point where the minimal amount of water vapour in the tyre would reach boiling point, and this expand, and thus adversely affect the tyre presure.
Which raises the question ... how does one expel ALL the atmospheric air from a tyre, to fill it 100% with nitrogen?
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ooh, you're just being difficult aren't you :-)
JH
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Of course!
Sadly, some muppets WILL insist on having Nitrogen. And at how much for initial fill-up, PLUS x for every adjustment afterwards, how much £ will the tyre dealer make off of n amount of gullible fools?
Considering the atmosphere is - what - 80% nitrogen anyways, who's fooling who?
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Sadly, some muppets WILL insist on having Nitrogen. And at how much for initial fill-up, PLUS x for every adjustment afterwards, how much £ will the tyre dealer make off of n amount of gullible fools?
Good! Just like making other people pay list price for goods. It allows the rest of us to get better deals!
Once upon a time it was difficult (but not impossible) to get discounts - you just had to be a little canny and tight.
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While I may well coincidentally be a muppet, I wouldn't insist on a nitrogen refill. Like many others I remain entitely sceptical about its benefits in day to day driving. Also having driven for many trouble free years and miles without it I can't say I'm any kind of convert but.......I'm still puzzled by my above experience. Any reasonable (or better still, unreasonable ) theories chaps and chapesses ?
:-)
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There's about 25 versions of Dueller, could they have been a slightly different model, or indeed are the new ones XL extra load which might have a slightly stiffer sidewall.
I'll stick with good old free air.
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I have always used an 80% nitrogen mix in my tyres, I can live with 20% other stuff. :)
Last edited by: Old Navy on Sat 17 Jul 10 at 21:30
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As far as I can tell GB they are identical to the back ones which are OE.
See, the thing is, the Mondy has had all sorts on it, Dunlops, Michelins, Pirellis and Goodyears. Slightly different driving characteristics on each but no more than a 10% difference in wear life.
The Qashqai has only ever had ( so far ) one change to what seem to be identical tyres on the front. The usage, if anything, has been harder on the second set. The only variable is what has been pumped into them and yet the wear life and pressure retention is markedly better.
I'm really not supporting any witchcraft theories about nitrogen and to be fair, why would I care to anyway ? I'm just telling you the facts as they apparently randomly, present themselves.
Got to say it is a bit odd though if nothing else eh ?
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It is a quandry Hump, and if you say they are the same as the OE rears then thats good enough for me.
That sure footedness is quite addictive don't you think especially when the roads get slippy again, just point squirt and let the auto gearbox do the work.
Don't suppose, no perish the thought, just wondered, nah, have you considered something like a Qashcow for Lady Hump?
coat overme shoulder and flounced out
Last edited by: gordonbennet on Sat 17 Jul 10 at 22:09
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Yeah, I especially like fooling with much fancier cars on wet roundabouts. Mine only has 150bhp but you can just floor it and it sets off like a Jack Russell after a squirrel. Mr RWD Bavarian 200 + horses just can't get near for at least a quarter mile. Childishly good fun in a school run soft roader..... Do you know the A500 Shavington ByPass ?
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Do you
>> know the A500 Shavington ByPass ?
>>
I do i imagine in the wet it's fun, but when you say 'only' 150hp that means very little in a competent Diesel, it's the torque and how quickly it responds that's far more important.
Last edited by: gordonbennet on Sun 18 Jul 10 at 07:59
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'I'll stick with good old free air'
Free air, what garage do you use that gives it away for free !!!!!
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...Free air, what garage do you use that gives it away for free !!!!!...
A few might pass this way:
The Shell station just south of Scotch Corner on the A1(M) has free air.
Last time I was there, the kit was in good nick, too.
The fuel is always as cheap as any in the district, and much cheaper than at Scotch Corner Services.
Only downside is it's northbound only - no access for those going south.
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>> Free air, what garage do you use that gives it away for free !!!!!
>>
My own rapid compressor and my own gauge that gives the correct easily read pressure.
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>>
>> Sadly, some muppets WILL insist on having Nitrogen. And at how much for initial fill-up,
>> PLUS x for every adjustment afterwards, how much £ will the tyre dealer make off
>> of n amount of gullible fools?
>>
That's the point. With Nitrogen there is no adjustment afterwards.
I had my motorbike tyres filled with Nitrogen at the last tyre change. When I rode the bike everyday, I checked the tyres daily and the pressures weekly, never varied. Now I cover only about 5k per year in both my car and on the bike. The bike pressures still have not varied, the car pressures need adjustment every time I take it out.
Guess what the car has in the tyres ! And no, I don't work for a tyre company...
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>>Guess what the car has in the tyres !
80% nitrogen?
Unless the bike tyres were purged before being filled with nitrogen they'll be around 93%, based on 30psi.
Even with 100% nitrogen the tyres are still going to vary in pressure with temperature in exactly the same way as with air.
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>> In racing tyres, particularly F1, where tyre pressure when hot is a very
>> important criterion, having a gas of known composition removes one
>> extra unknown from the calculation which leads to a specification of an
>> inflation pressure at a known lower temperature.
By how much does the behaviour of "dry" nitrogen differ from that of "dry"
air within the temperature range that F1 tyres are normally subjected to?
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A mate of mine is a member of the local mountain bike scene. Apparently these guys are debating whether to fill the tyres of their mountain bikes with nitrogen. The world has gone mad.
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These guys probably have the latest disk brakes on their bikes with expensive brake fluid too.
I nearly fell over when I priced a set of these brakes for my mountain bike, they were more than Honda charge for a CBR600.
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And why would you pay a fortune for a bike with only one gear?
madness
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Eh? That's not any sort of proper answer!
Last edited by: FotheringtonTomas on Sun 18 Jul 10 at 19:08
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>>these guys are debating whether to fill the tyres of their mountain bikes with nitrogen
Why not hydrogen or helium for the weight reduction? ;>)
Last edited by: bathtub tom {p} on Sun 18 Jul 10 at 19:41
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>> >> In racing tyres, particularly F1, where tyre pressure when hot is a very
>> >> important criterion, having a gas of known composition removes one
>> >> extra unknown from the calculation which leads to a specification of an
>> >> inflation pressure at a known lower temperature.
>>
>> By how much does the behaviour of "dry" nitrogen differ from that of "dry"
>> air within the temperature range that F1 tyres are normally subjected to?
Anyone?
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>>Anyone?
No, I don't have numbers to hand, or the time to calculate them.
If you google, you'll find how much the thermodynamic properties of air vary with moisture content. It's important to remember that in a F1 tyre, the importance of the gas as a springing medium is much greater than in a road car - typically half of the total deflection will be borne by the tyre. The thermodynamic properties will affect the effective spring rate of the tyre.
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>> the thermodynamic properties of air vary with moisture
>> content.
...true below a certain temperature?
>> It's important to remember that in a F1 tyre, the importance of the gas
>> as a springing medium is much greater than in a road car
I suspect that the difference between using "dry" air and "dry" nitrogen is miniscule and insignificant, and that nitrogen is used instead of air is simply part of the "hype" of F1.
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>> I suspect that the difference between using "dry" air and "dry" nitrogen is miniscule and
>> insignificant, and that nitrogen is used instead of air is simply part of the "hype"
>> of F1.
Hm. From formula1.com:
"Formula One tyres are normally filled with a special, nitrogen-rich air mixture, designed to minimise variations in tyre pressure with temperature. The mixture also retains the pressure longer than normal air would"
A "nitrogen-rich air mixture". "The mixture also retains the pressure longer"? How long does an F1 tyre last? Pah!
From f1-country.com:
"nearly all Formula 1 teams uses NITROGEN for filling tyre. .The tyres are filled with a special nitrogen rich, moisture free gas to make sure the pressure will not alter depending on where it was inflated (this gas does not expand when hot)"
OK, moisture free. Yes. "this gas does not expand when hot" - what *rubbish*!
Last edited by: FotheringtonTomas on Mon 19 Jul 10 at 12:48
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Why is everybody triping nitrogen as Nitrogen? Shall we put air as Air?
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Colleauge at work changed front pair of shoes on the x trail. He said to me they filled em with nitrogen, i said no but i know a few places are doing it. He said the reason is something to do along the lines of air is full of moisture. Tyres heat up and cool down releasing moisture and eventually corrode the steel wheels or something along these lines.
what this thread reminds me off is good old rip of britain. Garages charging for air.
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There is a recent post headed "am I being scammed"
perhaps this should have the same title.
As has been mentioned air is 80% nitrogen.
Every large compressor will have a water separator, water in compressed air lines is not good.
Air delivered from a large compressor will be almost dry - low humidity.
The rest is down to variations in how we drive, ambient temprature, road surface temperature, road surface texture, one hard pull away with wheels slipping, tyre seating, no two tyres being identical, imagination etc.
e.g. My Octavia has leapt from 58mpg to 62mpg fill to fill - what has changed - might just be the 3-4 miles at 30mph through the roadworks on the A38 or might be the 80% nitrogen I put in when I adjusted tyre pressures when we went to France.
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So, assuming air is 80% nitrogen, instead of paying for nitrogen, why not just put 20% more air in the tyre and wait for the oxygen to permeate through the tyre walls leaving you with just nitrogen in the tyre. ;0)
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IF, and only IF, it were only oxygen escaping through the fabric of the tyre, then that is precisely what you are doing every time you pump up your tyres, until eventually you are left with no oxygen in there.
Anyone got a mass spectrometer to hand?
JH
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>> until eventually you are left with no oxygen in there.
I have had to put more air into tyres for a couple of weeks after getting them fitted then found that the pressure then stays the same.
I have also had to replace a steel wheel that had gone rusty, it could have been cleaned up but wasn't worth the effort compared to £5 for one off a scrap car.
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The AA site does recommend using Nitrogen.
www.theaa.com/motoring_advice/safety/filling-tyres-with-nitrogen.html
I would love to use Nitrogen in tyres. But problem is, I can't use my portable air compressor then and have to take my car everytime to a Nitrogen pump (don't even if there is any in my town).
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Fotherington Thomas>>OK, moisture free. Yes. "this gas does not expand when hot" - what *rubbish*!
What they're trying to say is that the water vapour isn't volatalised. 1ml of water makes 1.3 litres of water vapour at atmospheric pressure. It doesn't take much water vapour in a tyre, being volatalised if the tyres get very hot, to expand in order to increase the tyre pressure significantly.
Humph, are you saying that you manage to do 24,000 miles without pumping up your tyres? Even if you check the pressure a couple of times a week (on your mileage) which lets some air out? And do you never have to put extra air in the tyres if you are carrying a full load (or maybe your samples generally fill the car to the brim).
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What they may be "trying to say" is not what they actually said, which is laughable, and which they quite clearly wrote.
BTW, you have replied to Manatee's OP, not mine, so I nearly missed your post.
Last edited by: FotheringtonTomas on Tue 20 Jul 10 at 10:50
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MM - I like to keep my tyres at the harder end of the recommended tolerences as I do fairly regularly even now carry a lot of heavy stuff. I check the tyres etc once a week with my own pencil type guage which I've had for decades. If you use it properly it only lets enough air ( or whatever is in the tyre ! ) out to move the slider so its effect on the remaining pressure is tiny.
....and while I too remain healthily sceptical about any measureable benefits from a nitrogen refill, I can't say I've seen any movement in those two front tyre pressures since they were fitted. The rears, while they don't deflate much at all of course have occasionally needed a bit of a pump up during the same period.
I quite accept that it could be coincidence or happenstance and that the additional wear from the second set of tyres may well be for absolutely unrelated reasons but it is at least interesting, to me anyway, to note that the only factor I'm aware of being different is the alleged gas content of the tyre.
It may well indeed be drivel. Alternatively, just maybe there's something in it. I really wouldn't know. I bow to the superior scientific knowledge of those who do. Just reporting my personal findings in the interest of furthering the discussion. I guess we can all make of it what we will.
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>>It may well indeed be drivel.
My thread title Humph, and a reference to the ignorant explanation on the Fast Fasten website. For all I know it's worth a quid, unlikely as it seems. I especially liked "nitrogen is completely safe in tyres".
That said, you seem to have experienced a 50% improvement in mileage, well beyond the "up to 25%" claimed by FF. A well crafted testimonial might be worth a free set of tyres ;-)
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Tyres - Nitrogen drivel - Mike Hannon
