I realise I've been researching Leafs and Zoes over the past couple of weeks, doing sums, posting on other car boards and so forth, but not raised it here. Partly because I don't think anyone much cares about electric vehicles here.
Anyway, my conclusion is that buying a new Renault Zoe saves me a large amount of dosh but would probably give a large amount of pain in my motoring life, a new Nissan Leaf saves me no dosh but gives me a large amount of pain, and any other EV new costs me more money and gives me a large amount of pain.
A secondhand variant saves more dosh of course (although not as much as you might think) but the pain is likely to increase exponentially.
So it's not, right at this moment, for me. The market is changing fast though and I'll look at it again in a year.
Anyone else ever considered it to the extent of doing the man maths? If you have a very specific set of low demand requirements of course, it can be attractive (like a new Zoe for £400 down and £120 per month all in, plus six bob in electricity).
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>> it can be attractive
>> (like a new Zoe for £400 down and £120 per month all in, plus six
>> bob in electricity).
I have considered it, I like the idea, and that's a cracking deal. Are there any hidden extras in that, battery rental, charging station installation at home?
What is this exponentially increasing pain you speak of?
At £120 a month, that would save me money over running that SAAB I have. I use two tanks of fuel per month, £160. Plus £30 VED per month.
Hmm. Could use one of those as a daily (25 miles a day), and keep the Mazda for occasional longer runs.
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No that's including battery rental. My quote (they float about a lot but they're really trying to offload Zoe's) was via Carwow, and was £499 deposit (sorry, £100 more than I posted), one payment of £139, then 23 x £40 for the car and 23 x £80 for the battery. That was for 7500 per annum. Excess charges are about 15p per mile.
I make that £141 a month in total. No VED, and new car so any unexpected issues are under warranty. Year one/two servicing is really cheap as there's nothing really to do. Home charger install still free I believe.
Give it back after two years, start again.
Sorry if my rough figures in the first post were a little lower than the reality, when I came to check it.
Exponential pain on secondhand? Out of warranty, parts are VERY expensive. Not a risk I'd care to take at the minute. (eg chap with parking brake trouble on a Leaf, yes sir, 2k please, oh, hang it was something else after all, another 3k please...)
Last edited by: Crankcase on Wed 22 Jul 15 at 11:50
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Ah, a lease.
Still, very interesting. A quick glance at the Renault website reveals similar deals on PCP.
*thinks*
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I've had an interest in electric or hybrid cars for a while but not done much about it.
Then about a year ago someone posted on the solar forum I read ( - I have solar panels) about getting a free charging point at my house, so I filled in the form to find out more and within 10 minutes they called me saying the had a free spot within two hours if I was interested. I was, as it was free, so I now have a charging point with nothing to charge.
A distant mate had a top of the range Leaf which I went in. Really nice, well equipped and comfortable and plenty roomy enough to use as my normal car. The problem for me would be the range (120 max, more likely 100 and less than that if you use anything like radio, wipers, heater) and the battery life (their leasing seemed expensive and the batteries will require replacement at 5 years, currently costing about 5k IIRC). I don't do a lot of long distance stuff and we could keep the Fiesta for that but 100 miles is really not enough in my opinion. (I considered that you can rapid-charge at motorways but then you spend your savings in Costa!!)
I'd not looked at leasing, but your example seems ludicrously cheap - car for about £600 over 2 years, are you sure??? Could there be a residual payment?
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There is a balloon on that, but anyone in their right mind would just walk away and begin again with whatever technology was there at the time.
I think the Zoe is so cheap because there's another due soon - think of it more as a mobile phone you update every couple of years rather than a car, seems to be the way people do it.
Not for me because of the range anxiety you mention, plus it would be our only car and holidays would mean hiring or spending forever charging every 80 miles, and anyway, it's a Renault.
But for a second car, or commute only, yes absolutely cracking deals at the moment and lots of people are replacing an existing car and paying for the Zoe with fuel costs saved alone.
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e (their
>> leasing seemed expensive and the batteries will require replacement at 5 years, currently costing about
>> 5k IIRC).
Do Nissan say they need changing every 5 years?
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Can't find the article now. But having had a look for it, I believe I may be wrong on that. Wikipedia says
"The battery pack is expected to retain 70% to 80% of its capacity after 10 years but its actual lifespan depends on how often DC fast charging (480 volts DC) is used and also on driving patterns and environmental factors.[31][39] Nissan said the battery will lose capacity gradually over time but it expects a lifespan of over 10 years under normal use.[39] The 2011/12 Leaf's battery was initially guaranteed by Nissan for eight years or 100,000 miles (160,000 km)[40][41] (see Warranty sub-section below under United States for limitations)."
I am sure I read an article that degradation would not be unusual in year 5 (i.e. less bars), although I see the battery warranty of five years/60k so maybe I'm wrong there too...
I found this while searching, may be of interest to some. www.electricvehiclewiki.com/Battery_Capacity_Loss#Battery_Aging_Model
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Crankcase - "quote was via Carwow"
I can't see leasing thru Carwow, can you supply a link please?
I'm quite interested in this.
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>> I can't see leasing thru Carwow, can you supply a link please?
Doesn't work that way - boogy over to Carwow, create a chuck away account tied to some email address or other, tell them the car you want with a couple of clicks. Wait an hour, day, whatever - dealers then contact you (via Carwow "dashboard" messages at the site, they don't get your contact details) with whatever they can do.
I had five Renault dealers contact me, and six Nissan ones, all with varying prices. Then I asked the cheapest Renault one his pcp over 24 months and got the figures I quoted, which are broadly in line with everywhere else on forums/the web generally.
I guess you could then go to your local dealer armed with the quotes and play price match if you were so inclined, or just go with the offer.
Not banging a drum for Carwow, just signed up last week to do this, works as I've described. Seemed ok to me to get some figures anyway.
Don't forget there is 5k grant at the minute and "manufacturers discounts" and "dealers discounts". The Zoe was offered to me at a cash price of just under 9k new after all discounting, which is why the pcp payments are low.
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I've done the Carwow thing for a random Leaf model and now have five quotes. Top price is £23740 which is 0% discount, best price (same spec) is £13790 (for cash) which they say is 41% off.
So Crankcase where do I go from here, to turn those into PCP quotes? Just call the dealers, or am I missing something on Carwow?
Does it follow that the cheapest cash price will offer the cheapest PCP? I guess not...
(It's very unlikely that I will be following this through but there's a small possibility)
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Smokie, you just message the dealer in the carwow dashboard and ask for the PCP terms you're interested in. They'll respond no doubt. Mine all did.
All the figures have just changed as the quarter rolled over, and they are also now able to quote on the new 30Kwh batteries too if the increased range is of interest.
It's all a bit more expensive than a week ago I'm afraid.
Last edited by: Crankcase on Tue 6 Oct 15 at 10:59
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I'd have one i think quite highly of them, well the idea anyway. Not driven one yet. But should i need a new car and do lots of small trips then I'd think of one. Well that and a garage/drive to put it on so it can be charged and own my house so i can fit a charger. So not there yet, but one day...
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I know a couple of people with leafs, they both love them. Neither would go back to petrol or diesel. In fact one is buying a second leaf for the OH.
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Lease seems to be the way to go with cutting-edge technology like this. Full electric wouldn't work for us but I considered a plug-in hybrid Golf or A3 and may do so again. At the moment I need the range but three years will see a lot more development and we could get to the point where full electric is more generally useful - which is all the more reason not to get lumbered with ownership of today's compromised technology!
Last edited by: WillDeBeest on Wed 22 Jul 15 at 12:01
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Charging point yeah, I don't suppose a 4-way slung out of the living room window will cut it.
I'm out.
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>> Charging point yeah, I don't suppose a 4-way slung out of the living room window
>> will cut it.
>>
>> I'm out.
>>
For a Leaf, you'd suppose incorrectly then. It will take hours to recharge fully via a straight 13 amp socket as found anywhere, but it can be done. If it's overnight or something no problem, you don't need a charger.
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A Leaf or similar would make a pleasant local runabout for us. But we very seldom need two cars, and can't justify the expense. It wouldn't do as our only car, when the range mattered it would really matter.
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I have had a Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV since December. Home charge unit installed and I plug it in whenever I am home. Realistic EV range is not much more than 20 miles, rather than the 30 odd quoted, but this covers my wife's daily commute and weekend dotting about. The 2ltr petrol engine is surprisingly economical for such a big car, an easy 40 mpg, probably helped by using the EV aspect when in town.
Very happy with the car and the BIK tax rate is great.
A Zoe or similar as a second car is quite an appealing prospect, although I would miss the V6 in my Audi TT!
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I was at the dealers in march I think for some recall work and they made me an offer against a PHEV for my diesel outlander. I came to the conclusion it is a great idea as a company car because of the BIK subsidy, but of no material net benefit to a private buyer. Most seem to be company cars and I wouldn't be surprised to find many don't bother to plug them in.
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I should get my next car in just over 2 years time. But depending on how BIK rates change then it might be cost effective to go for say a Passat GTE if the rate remains at 5% for BIK. But lots could change. Yes the car might have a higher monthly rental (extra payments or pre-tax//NI deductions) and list price high.... but if the BIK rate is low I might have to consider it.
I'd probably never plug it in but it will charge itself a bit when driving.
Next time I look, the diesels will no longer have the 3% surcharge so I could go back to diesel without BIK penalty. But I'm enjoying the petrol A3 1.4 turbo with the DSG. I probably would want DSG again! I like it more than I thought I would.
The new A4 150PS diesels will have emissions below 100g/km for CO2... so I suppose one of those might be an option. Said to be very good cars to drive too. Maybe a hybrid one of those will be about.
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>>which is all the more reason not to get lumbered with ownership of today's compromised technology!
>>
But tomorrow's compromised technology will be superseded soon after. If it's 'on the market' now it's old news.
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>> But tomorrow's compromised technology will be superseded soon after. If it's 'on the market' now
>> it's old news.
>>
My son in law was a product designer with a big multinational company. He recons the stuff on sale is at least three steps out of date and there is no way a generation of any product will be skipped when profit can be made from it.
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I think you've omitted the excess mileage charge too, Crankcase. 7.5p per mile above 6000 miles per annum.
I think I'm out. I think.
Maybe worth a visit to a showroom and getting the bods there to sharpen their pencils.
I'd really like to think I could make it work.
I could keep to under 7000 miles a year on just commuting/school run stuff. But I tend to do 10k per annum overall, and so that would be 3k miles in the Mazda at 25mpg.
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I didn't. To quote myself:
"That was for 7500 per annum. Excess charges are about 15p per mile."
If you chose 10k instead of 7.5k, therefore, you'd either increase those pcp payments or pay the excess - 2500*.15 is £31.25 a month more. It's probably only tuppence today, these numbers are a week old!
For us, I do about 13k a year, of which about 8k would be in sensible range of an EV, but the rest I'd have to do in another way, and that's too much faff for me.
Although of course Nissan do offer 14 days a year free "real car" loan, which mitigates it a bit.
Edit - on your excess you quote, doing 10k miles rather than 6k costs you an extra £12.50 a month.
Last edited by: Crankcase on Wed 22 Jul 15 at 13:46
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I had an hour to waste in a Renault showroom up North the other week. Zoes were about half the cost of Clios to lease. As someone said further up, they're really trying to shift em.
I've driven a couple in the past; some of them come with a white dashboard which reflects horrendously in the windscreen - a dealbreaker for me. Fortunately dark grey dashboards are available too.
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I'd buy a Tesla P85d in a heartbeat if I had £65K, not to save money or be 'green' but because it is better than a car with an engine.
Looks nice (Jaguarish) and 0-60mph in 3.1 seconds.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=AWCfN8OmSvE
Last edited by: Shiny Tailpipes on Sun 26 Jul 15 at 15:09
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>>Looks nice (Jaguarish) and 0-60mph in 3.1 seconds.
For a handful of grands more, you can get that down to 2.8s, 1/4 mile less than 11 secs, and a slightly more effective battery (90 kWh)
www.topgear.com/car-news/first-look/ludicrous-new-tesla-model-s-p85d-does-0-60mph-28-secs
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Saw a 4-door Tesla saloon tearing down the outside lane of the M4 this morning. Desperately in need of a charging point I expect.
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>> Saw a 4-door Tesla saloon tearing down the outside lane of the M4 this morning. Desperately
>> in need of a charging point I expect.
Probably not. You'd drive a bit slower to use less electricity combating friction etc.
They were probably just enjoying an electric car that has lots of performance and plenty of range. The top of the range one is soon to have an upgrade available to 'ludicrous' mode I believe - 0-60mph in about 2.8s.
Might be what Lygonos refers to.
Last edited by: rtj70 on Wed 29 Jul 15 at 16:47
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>> >> Saw a 4-door Tesla saloon tearing down the outside lane of the M4 this
>> morning. Desperately
>> >> in need of a charging point I expect.
>>
>> Probably not. You'd drive a bit slower to use less electricity combating friction etc.
Who said humour is dead?
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It's not just the electirication of the drive train that is changing with the big manufacturers joining Toyota. It's been known for a while Apple and Google are looking at options.
It was recently reported Apple have hired Doug Betts who has previously worked with FIAT Chrysler, Toyota and Nissan.
preview.tinyurl.com/oqyn7gw - Link to Detroit news snapshot.
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>> It was recently reported Apple have hired Doug Betts who has previously worked with FIAT
>> Chrysler, Toyota and Nissan.
The last thing we want on electric cars is the technology guru that brought us ludicrously short battery life on phones
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Bought a new Outlander back in January. Aiming to keep it 6-8 years minimum. Mileage approx. 12k/year. The diesel version made a lot more sense than the PHEV...
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My diesel Yaris is more economical than the petrol / battery hybrid version and even cheaper to run with the current diesel prices.
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I follow 'green' issues quite a bit (listen to tomorrow's 'Feedback' on R4 for more info) and I'm amused that no-one here cites that as a reason for wanting an EV. The Greens, of course, think that is the primary reason anyone would want an EV, but people who are paying their own money will only do it if it makes economic sense.
I'm a bit more concerned about battery life and the effect on range of a cold winter period where heating and ancillaries are at full stretch when the battery is least effective, but if there are good deals and government subsidies, why not?
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As I mentioned above, my Outlander works well financially for me. So much so that I am now considering selling my Audi TT and replacing it with a Renault Zoe full EV. My next assignment is in Coventry so I will have a 15 mile drive to the station and a 30 minute train ride. The 150 mile theoretical range on a Zoe (more like 100 in the real world) will be ample for me. Long journeys can be undertaken in the Outlander so range anxiety is not a problem.
2 charge points at home (of course, the charge systems for each car are different), will boost my Eco credentials I suppose!
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Drivethedeal.com are doing the e-Golf for £21,000 (=£5k Govt grant plus further £5k discount)
Looks a better car than the Zoe to me, and no battery rental.
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I am further amused by the thought that if electric vehicles begin to sell in quantity, HMG will have to rethink the tax breaks and subsidies, as they are beginning to do with solar PV panels and wind turbines. There will also be the problem of additional load on the grid, just at a time when (largely in response to Green/EU interference) our reserves are fast disappearing. Zero-carbon they ain't!
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>> our reserves are fast disappearing. Zero-carbon they ain't!
Oil and gas reserves... wasted on power generation. Ought to be preserved for cars with internal combustion engines.
The future of power is nuclear as any fule kno. It may actually be cleaner than hydrocarbon power and won't run out. Time will tell how much it costs us in the end.
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I like the name Tesla the forgotten genius.Kids should learn about his achievement at school which they don't.Edison got the honours.
How old is the combustion engine? There must be something better and more user friendly.
There be some bright spark out there who has the answer.
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>> I like the name Tesla the forgotten genius.Kids should learn about his achievement at school
>> which they don't.Edison got the honours.
Simply because Tesla was Serbian. We don't like to celebrate modern scientists unless they're British or American.
Elon Musk appreciates him, though.
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>> >> I like the name Tesla the forgotten genius.Kids should learn about his achievement at
>> school
>> >> which they don't.Edison got the honours.
>>
>> Simply because Tesla was Serbian. We don't like to celebrate modern scientists unless they're British
>> or American.
>>
As a Microwave/RF engineer my all time hero is J.C. Bose, contemporary of Marconi, and arguably demonstrated wireless telegraphy before him:-
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jagadish_Chandra_Bose
I'd say Tesla was well known compared to Bose.
Whilst I wouldn't deny the race card plays a part (Although Marie Curie was French and a woman!) there's also the philosophical question of who invents something; the first person to postulate something, the first person to practically demonstrate that it exists, or the first person to make it into a commercial product?
Edison vs. Joseph Swan w.r.t. the filament lightbulb is another example.
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"(Although Marie Curie was French and a woman!)"
Half right Spam, she was Polish. And the very fact that she was a woman was the reason she moved to Paris - Polish higher education didn't allow women to enrol.
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Electric motors are about the same age, but they work very well, especially with the powerful magnets now available (a great unsung development - look at the size of the motors that make your phone vibrate). The problem, then as now, is storing the energy, which hydrocarbons do so well.
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>> How old is the combustion engine? There must be something better and more user friendly.
How dare you Dutchie! There's nothing better or more useful than the highly-developed i/c engine using steam-era piston technology, even if the alternative i/c technology - the gas turbine - has been tried (and found too fuel-hungry for most practical purposes).
The technology, to a car person, is endlessly fascinating in itself, the adaptation of external combustion steam technology being a typical example of the meandering, random nature of technical development.
Always loved all this stuff, both in theory and hands-on. Spent a day with a toolmaker in an electrical components factory once. A wise old cat who could feel a difference of a thousandth of an inch with his horny thumb.
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There's nothing better or more useful than the highly-developed i/c engine using steam-era piston technology, even if the alternative i/c technology - the gas turbine - has been tried (and found too fuel-hungry for most practical purposes).
The problem with the gas turbine is it is good at a steady speed and its rated power output, but accelerates and decelerates badly, and is very fuel inefficient at anything less than full power. The fact a piston engine runs well on part loads and is not cripplingly uneconomical when asked to change speeds is the reason why it still is the majority power unit of road transport.
There are some very amusing tales of how the Rover Gas turbine cars behaved in the 50s. Very heavy on the brakes. The account of how Lotus tried it in F1 is worth a read too:
www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2007/03/08/banned-gas-turbine-engines/
The fundamental problem with the electric is energy storage/battery. Solve that and and the use of the electric car will rapidly increase. Electric cars have been around since the dawn of motoring, there are quite a few Brighton run eligible veterans and Harrods (and others) had electric vans before WW2
tinyurl.com/o495dsu
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>> A wise old cat who could feel a
>> difference of a thousandth of an inch with his horny thumb.
>>
Ah yes, having served his National service in REME and then worked in a garage, one of my late father's 'party tricks' was being able to tell exactly what feeler gauges were set to without looking.
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One way to do this trick is to know the thickness of your thumbnail! Gets pretty easy if you have a known point to refer to.
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>..even if the alternative i/c technology - the gas turbine - has been tried..
You should be like The President of Mexico AC.
He ran his gas turbine Chrysler on Tequila. He could syphon the tank if he unexpectedly ran out of booze.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chrysler_turbine_engines
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>> You should be like The President of Mexico AC.
>> He ran his gas turbine Chrysler on Tequila.
Wow! That didn't look true, but turned out to be.
Fun-loving guy evidently.
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"The future of power is nuclear as any fule kno."
Indeed, Molesworth. The trouble is that it gives the Greens conniptions (with the possible exception of James Lovelock), so they campaign for wind'n'solar, which only provide power when they feel like it.
This is useful: www.gridwatch.templar.co.uk/
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>> they campaign for wind'n'solar, which only provide power when they feel like it.
Yes.
One would like to think that a mixture of power sources, with nuclear as (so to speak) longstop but using these green technologies too, would take root in the developed world. But powerful and wicked interests are against, and there is of course the question of whether we can afford it. Perhaps after another century of peaceful technical development... a long time to be holding one's breath. To become respectable in our own eyes we (I speak for the whole of humanity here) will need to be a lot richer world-wide than we are at the moment.
Last edited by: Armel Coussine on Fri 7 Aug 15 at 14:13
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>> I am further amused by the thought that if electric vehicles begin to sell in
>> quantity, HMG will have to rethink the tax breaks and subsidies, as they are beginning
>> to do with solar PV panels and wind turbines. There will also be the problem
>> of additional load on the grid, just at a time when (largely in response to
>> Green/EU interference)...
Wait for the first brown out. I wonder if the general public would target electric cars in the same way the greens targeted 4x4 style vehicles?
If Noah were around today and arrived in London, would the residents of Chelsea go on the Ark four by four? Sorry, couldn't resist, shamelessly copied.
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I don't think the residents of Sodom got to go on the Ark.
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Interesting idea - charging via the road as you travel, with trials in the UK later this year.
www.techtimes.com/articles/75911/20150811/uk-set-begin-trials-roads-charge-electic-vehicles.htm
And for a bit more fun, this is a reaction video to the new Tesla "insane mode". Little bit sweary.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=LpaLgF1uLB8
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How will they cope with the potholes?
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Tesla Model S P85D Insane Mode vs 2013 Ford Mustang GT 5.0 www.youtube.com/watch?v=hMRURBQ49XQ
Even more impressive is Tesla P85D Insane Mode vs BMW i8 Drag Racing from a Stop www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZzcILdbrYYs
Last edited by: smokie on Wed 12 Aug 15 at 09:29
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Ah, but those Tesla videos are "insane mode". In "ludicrous mode" it's a bit quicker yet.
Last edited by: Crankcase on Wed 12 Aug 15 at 12:10
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"insane mode"
You mean there ain't no sanity clause? :-)
I don't blame Tesla for dining out on the torque characteristics of electric motors, but I'd still rather have something I can refuel instantly and anywhere. Having to plan a trip to take in widely-spaced recharging stations would spoil it for me, and I'd be bound to run out in a remote village full of suspicious locals with impenetrable accents...
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Tesla's superchargers can add around 150 miles of range in 20 minutes.
They're going to be in most M-way services in the next year or two after settling a squabble with Ecotricity I expect.
Free juice for life and a realistic battery/motor lifespan of several hundred thousand miles....
Last edited by: Lygonos on Wed 12 Aug 15 at 21:54
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"Tesla's superchargers can add around 150 miles of range in 20 minutes."
I don't think even Tesla recommend this too often, though. Generally, rechargeable batteries don't like to be fast-charged, especially when hot - slow overnight charging will extend their life considerably, but they just haven't been around for long enough for that to become apparent. I can't see the free juice for life offer lasting, either - whose life are they talking about, yours or the battery's..?
BTW, I can add 300 miles range to my car in about 3 mins.
Last edited by: J Bonington Jagworth on Thu 13 Aug 15 at 10:41
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>>BTW, I can add 300 miles range to my car in about 3 mins
Would you mind waiting half an hour if I offered to pay for it?
>>don't think even Tesla recommend this too often
Don't think I saw that memo - Tesla batteries are cooled and designed to both accept such charge rates, and dish it back out - lots of studies suggest even after 60+ thousand miles the battery packs still maintain 95% of initial charge, with rate of degradation slowing after the first 4-5% drop.
Last edited by: Lygonos on Thu 13 Aug 15 at 18:53
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"They're going to be in most M-way services in the next year or two after settling a squabble with Ecotricity"
If they're having a squabble with the electricity supplier at this stage, when Teslas and other EV's are quite rare, how will the supply be arranged when there is some real demand? A partial charge in 20 mins is a load of about 100kW, and that's just for one car! Ten of them at once is a MW, or 2500 amps at 400V - new substations will be required, I think!
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>> "They're going to be in most M-way services in the next year or two after
>> settling a squabble with Ecotricity"
>>
>> If they're having a squabble with the electricity supplier at this stage, when Teslas and
>> other EV's are quite rare, how will the supply be arranged when there is some
>> real demand? A partial charge in 20 mins is a load of about 100kW, and
>> that's just for one car! Ten of them at once is a MW, or 2500
>> amps at 400V - new substations will be required, I think!
>>
Well as our electricity generating capacity is falling, they will be unable to charge en masse in the daylight in winter... especially when solar/wind is not working.
So anyone suggesting electric cars are feasible for the next 20 years in the UK as a form of mass transport is seriously deluded.
Last edited by: madf on Wed 30 Sep 15 at 11:19
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If the Greens happen to live in terrace houses and have to park on the street, how will they home-recharge their cars?
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If the Greens happen to live in terrace houses and have to park on the street, how will they home-recharge their cars?
One of these?
www.teslagenerator.com/tesla-radiant-energy/
Walks off giggling :o)
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Giggle you may, but we'll all look eggy-faced if one day it turns out Tesla was right.
Schumann Resonances definitely exist - it *might* be feasible to tap them; who knows for sure at this time.
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Giggle you may, but we'll all look eggy-faced if one day it turns out Tesla was right.
Tesla was a very clever man and was right about a lot of things - but not this. Edison rubbished him as he preferred dangerous AC rather than nice safe DC. That's why the electric chair uses AC and consequently is neither that quick or humane (if one believes in the death sentence that is).
The only way you'll make that work is with a big aerial, and you live under a power line. Stealing electricity though is illegal!
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T Henry Moray appeared to manage it, miles from any power lines. And was never exposed as a hoax.
I thought DC was less safe, because it doesn't offer any tiny windows of opportunity to let go of a live wire; it clamps you to it instead.
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Electric shocked muscles go into spasm. Coupled with the 50Hz of AC (or 60Hz in some countries) it makes it very hard to let go of a shock source. DC though, you stand a chance of throwing yourself clear.
Having said that, much over 10mA through the body and you'll be doing well to clear it. Mains is generally regarded as a killer, but a lot of folk can cope. 11kV on electrified rail lines, put it this way, don't urinate from a bridge onto them, folk have been killed and I struggle to think of a worse way to die.
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>> Having said that, much over 10mA through the body and you'll be doing well to
>> clear it. Mains is generally regarded as a killer,
My grandfather was a practical man born in the 1890s. He could do most things, including wiring his own house, and he was no technophobe. I remember him wiring a light pendant and testing it by switching it on and sticking his thumb in briefly, before declaring it "all reight".
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>> Interesting idea - charging via the road as you travel, with trials in the UK
>> later this year.
>>
>> www.techtimes.com/articles/75911/20150811/uk-set-begin-trials-roads-charge-electic-vehicles.htm
>>
Upside down trolleybus? Or scaled up toy electric racing cars?
Last edited by: Old Navy on Wed 12 Aug 15 at 22:04
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>> Interesting idea - charging via the road as you travel, with trials in the UK
>> later this year.
>>
>> www.techtimes.com/articles/75911/20150811/uk-set-begin-trials-roads-charge-electic-vehicles.htm
Don't let Dog see that! All those waves and emissions and things!
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>> Don't let Dog see that! All those waves and emissions and things!
Plenty of waves in Cornwall guvnor, narmean. Things too, I'll wager.
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Tesla unveils Model X electric car with Falcon Wing doors
www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-34399888
Price - as high as $144,000
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There were a couple of electric 'pumps' at Scotch Corner services when I stopped there Friday week since. Only one was working; there was a Nissan Leaf charging with a bored looking driver in it. When I came out of the services, there was a different Leaf there with another bored occupant.
As far as I can make out, charging is free, which seems ludicrous when generating capacity is at full stretch at peak demand.
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I don't know how long it takes to charge up a Leaf, but having waited an extra half-hour in a car-park for my son to finish an evening gig that I rushed to meet an earlier time estimate for, I can understand the boredom.
This is worth a look, especially when the wind output is close to zero, as occurred last Saturday (I wind up my Green friends with it):
www.gridwatch.templar.co.uk/
If EV ownership takes off, the grid will collapse pretty quickly, unless someone invents Lunar panels (h/t Aardman animation).
Last edited by: J Bonington Jagworth on Wed 30 Sep 15 at 12:56
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There was another proposal that charging circuit will be built in to the roads - similar to how model trains pick up power from track. Or more like an overhead wire for train but implanted in road (like tram lines).
As cars travels along the road, it will be charged continuously.
So as long as you remain on motorways or A roads, the car will get charged continuously. Once you are out from those roads, it will run using on board battery.
This concept is far more interesting.
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>>
>> This concept is far more interesting.
>>
Interesting in a completely bonkers way. So many reasons that's not going to work.
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>> >>
>> >> This concept is far more interesting.
>> >>
>> Interesting in a completely bonkers way. So many reasons that's not going to work.
It has given me a brilliant idea for something I will call the "trolley bus".
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It's great for those who want to commit suicide but are short of ideas and opportunities.
And for normal people who are short of commonsense and/or brains..
And no doubt the recharging of power usage to users will be fun..
So an idea written by someone without one scintilla of common sense.
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>> >> >>
>> >> >> This concept is far more interesting.
>> >> >>
>> >> Interesting in a completely bonkers way. So many reasons that's not going to work.
>>
>> It has given me a brilliant idea for something I will call the "trolley bus".
>>
Yes that was pretty much my first thought!
..or Scalextric writ large.
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It will never work, it would fry too many cyclists that would insist on their right to ride along the tracks. :-)
Last edited by: Old Navy on Wed 30 Sep 15 at 15:39
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>> It will never work, it would fry too many cyclists that would insist on their
>> right to ride along the tracks. :-)
>>
On second thoughts, it might be a good thing..:-)
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Electric cars are just a distraction, for both manufacturers and the politicians to play the 'green game'. Apart from very niche roles they just don't work in reality. All these claims about the mileage they will do on a charge - I wonder how that holds up in winter driving, with five adults plus luggage in the car. There needs to be a massive leap in battery technology before many will consider them: they need to be cheaper, lighter, much greater range and a much faster charge time. Busy people are not going to wait even twenty minutes for a fast charge. I can refuel my works car in a few minutes and can drive for 700 miles. Battery needs to compete with that.
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>> Electric cars are just a distraction, for both manufacturers and the politicians to play the
>> 'green game'. Apart from very niche roles they just don't work in reality.
Someone I know has a Leaf and loves it. He's got a fairly normal life, he's not a travelling salesman or anything like that. I thought the range would be an issue but he's had very few issues. Infact he likes it so much he's buying another.
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There will always be some whose motoring pattern is compatible with electric. But I don't think at the moment there are enough. And no-one will convince me that even if we had only 20% shift to electric, the national grid would cope. There would need to be massive investment in that area. Maybe one day technology will be sufficiently improved and the battery car will rule but I don't think I will see it in my life.
The future to me is - and has always been - smaller, lighter, more economical petrol cars (or diesels if people must), possibly some return to lean-burn but the environmental lobby might have to take a back seat.
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Maybe one day technology will be sufficiently improved and the battery car will rule but I don't think I will see it in my life.
[silvery bead curtain effect and harp music]
Welcome to 1986.
Mobile phone? Do me a favour! Look at the thing - needs a battery the size of a portaloo, only works for ten minutes an' costs a thousand quid a call. Who's ever going to want one of those? Now excuse me, need to make a call. Phew! This phone box is a bit whiffy. Who lets 'em get like this? Bleedin' disgrace.
Of course, we don't know how much melting our Snowman still has to do but if it's much more than ten years, he's wrong.
Last edited by: WillDeBeest on Thu 1 Oct 15 at 21:17
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>> Mobile phone? Do me a favour! Look at the thing - needs a battery the
>> size of a portaloo, only works for ten minutes an' costs a thousand quid a
>> call. Who's ever going to want one of those?
ROFLOL!!
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>> Of course, we don't know how much melting our Snowman still has to do but
>> if it's much more than ten years, he's wrong.
He's right.
Look at our mobile phone,Whats the technology thats still holding it back, what about it, user wise, has gone backwards? Battery life My 10 year old nokia had talk time in the 10s of hours, and standby times in the hundred of hours. The battery was easy to change in and out.
Now? A battery you can't change and a standby time in 10s of hours.
We have reached the chemical / mechanical limit of battery technology, and have been for a few years now.
Look at Dreamliners, even had to regress technology.
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>> Maybe one day technology will be sufficiently improved and the battery car will rule
>> but I don't think I will see it in my life.
>>
>> Mobile phone? Do me a favour! Look at the thing - needs a battery the
>> size of a portaloo, only works for ten minutes an' costs a thousand quid a
>> call. Who's ever going to want one of those? Now excuse me, need to make
>> a call. Phew! This phone box is a bit whiffy. Who lets 'em get like
>> this? Bleedin' disgrace.
>>
>> Of course, we don't know how much melting our Snowman still has to do but
>> if it's much more than ten years, he's wrong.
>>
..but battery and electric motor technology have already seen more than a century of development, and yet still we have electric cars which are much more compromised than their IC counterparts - despite first appearing on our roads at much the same time. The 'easy wins' of electric vehicle technology were had decades ago, we're in the 'long tail' now
Compare that with mobile phone technology which developed in the post war "white heat of technology" era, off the back of silicon chip developments. How many major advances will be made in mobile phone technology in 70 years' time?......
Last edited by: spamcan61 on Fri 2 Oct 15 at 08:22
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>> The future to me is - and has always been - smaller, lighter, more economical
>> petrol cars (or diesels if people must), possibly some return to lean-burn but the environmental
>> lobby might have to take a back seat.
The future, for passenger cars, is still the nitrogen fuel cell.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_Mirai
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>>still the nitrogen fuel cell.
Oooo not heard of that one unless you mean the liquid nitrogen -> gaseous nitrogen nonsense.
Anyhoos, typo aside, I don't think Tesla are quaking quite yet: In Germany, pricing starts at €72,000. Former European Parliament President Pat Cox estimates that Toyota will initially lose between €50,000 to €100,000 on each Mirai sold in 2015
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>> Anyhoos, typo aside,
yes of course it was a typo, as the link indicated.
I don't think Tesla are quaking quite yet: In Germany, pricing starts
>> at €72,000.
They should be. a Tesla costs £55,000, thats €74,000
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Tesla make £10k + on each car.
Toyota lose £50k +.
Seen any hydrogen pumps recently?
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>> Tesla make £10k + on each car.
>>
>> Toyota lose £50k +.
>>
>> Seen any hydrogen pumps recently?
No of course not there are no fuel cell cars yet, just as there were no charging points for electric cars at first, but I have seen and see more regularly some poor sap stuck on a electric charging station for hours on end.
Still, clearly you have some anti fuel cell axe to grind
Leave you to it.
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>>Still, clearly you have some anti fuel cell axe to grind
>>Leave you to it.
Ooo that's a good argument.
Maybe it really is feasible to use massive amounts of electricity to generate hydrogen, then freeze it, then stick it in trucks, then drop it off at 'hydrogen stations' and use pretty much the same electric motors that you find in, um, electic cars, but power them with a technology that has been 30 years in the making and is only just about looking feasible....
Rather than using a pre-existing network to supply the electricity you had in the first place straight to peoples' houses to recharge overnight, or in charging stations if they need to travel more than a couple of hundred miles.
Suuuuuuure.
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>>electic cars
A car which chooses to use batteries?
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Next you'll be telling us how they hold elections in China ;-)
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>>They should be - a Tesla costs £55,000, thats 74,000 euros
You get a RWD 70kWh version for £51,180 (still not exactly cheap) which is just over 69,000 euros.
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"There needs to be a massive leap in battery technology before many will consider them"
Exactly, and my understanding is that we are already pretty much at the limit of what is possible with chemistry.
Also, at a time when power stations are being closed to meet EU directives, the wholesale movement to electric vehicles would cause blackouts everywhere, so there is a bit of a disconnect (pun intended) between Green aspirations and real life. No battery gets anywhere near the energy density of liquid hydrocarbons, which is why you don't see too many electric airliners...
Last edited by: J Bonington Jagworth on Thu 1 Oct 15 at 21:28
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Electric cars are OK for the station run part of a commute or very local SDP use but what about the likes of Zero who chases trains around the country and myself who travels anything up to 100 miles several times a week? I am not going to drive 50 miles ( if an electric car can go that far ) and then wait for it to recharge so that I can get home. Not all pensioners sit in front of a TV for 18 hours a day. As for business use forget it. I did a 400 mile round trip at least a couple of times a month in what most of you would consider to be very remote areas (Scottish Highlands ) in one job I did. I will stick with an ICE and it is unlikely there will be a viable alternative to petrol and diesel in my lifetime.
Last edited by: Old Navy on Fri 2 Oct 15 at 08:39
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That's the point ON its not meant to replace every single type of persons journeys. But it can cover quite a few peoples typical journey. Its not meant to be a catch all for everyone such as travelling salesmen etc.
100 miles is realistic in current electric cars. I think they can be a part of the future for travel. I'd have a tesla tomorrow if i won the lottery, i think they look spot on. Seen a few more about recently as well.
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>> That's the point ON its not meant to replace every single type of persons journeys.
>> But it can cover quite a few peoples typical journey.
>>
However, even those of us doing, normally, shorter domestic runs locally, do from time to time need to do a longer run when we will want to have heater, air con, radio blasting away. Which electric cars will do a run of over 100 miles?
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Can't say I've researched it, off the top of my head, two.
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>> Can't say I've researched it, off the top of my head, two.
>>
And, after being parked up for a couple of hours, will they take me home again?
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>> >> Can't say I've researched it, off the top of my head, two.
>> >>
>>
>> And, after being parked up for a couple of hours, will they take me home again?
>>
Being left charged up i believe so yes. Although i don't own one so i can't know for sure.
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>> >> And, after being parked up for a couple of hours, will they take me
>> home again?
>> >>
>>
>> Being left charged up i believe so yes. Although i don't own one so i
>> can't know for sure.
>>
Blimey. Yes, of course, you can leave them for weeks (although not a good idea to do that when they are at 100% is all).
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>> Can't say I've researched it, off the top of my head, two.
>>
Three, now.
Tesla, 200-250 real range miles now, likely 300 in a year or so, but billions of quid.
Nissan Leaf with the just-announced-last-week 30Kwh battery, published range something ludicrous like 150, real range, probably about 110. Costs about 16-20k depending on trim.
Zoe - 100-110 real range, still very cheap (but it's a Renault, which might or might not put you off).
Leaf recharge time about 20-30 minutes (on a charger for free in a motorway service station etc, will be longer on other types of charger though) so 100 mile trip is all the way there on a charge, stop for 30 mins, off you go again. Long journeys do-able but not very practical yet, although someone did Lands End to John O'Groats over three or four days a week or two ago, at a total cost in fuel of, well, nothing.
If your commute fits the bill, and running around to the shops and visiting family is in range, then you're covered for most of your journeys. The outliers (like holidays) Nissan will lend you an ICE car for up to 14 days a year if you buy a new Leaf. After that, you either take longer or you hire a car at whatever a day. But as you have no tax and tiny "fuel" bills you have a pot for that.
More inconvenient, yes, in some circs. For someone who has limited miles to do, perfect. For business salesman, useless. Only you can decide how well it would fit your driving pattern of course.
New Leaf due 2017, bigger battery yet. Nissan "aiming for" 200 miles range with that one.
Last edited by: Crankcase on Fri 2 Oct 15 at 10:10
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A Leaf will not fully recharge in 30 minutes, it gets to a nominal 80% I think on one of the high rate 'pumps'.
Without a recharge, you could contemplate a 50 mile journey and hope to get home, but would you really? I don't run around with half a gallon in the tank. Run into a traffic problem and you'd be on the edge.
We do regular visits to family in Cambridge at the moment, about 60 miles for us. In theory we could use a Leaf and cut the fuel bills, if we could recharge there for 8 hours on a 16A home charging unit (which they haven't got). But that would mean not being able to use the car while we are there, and no flexibility.
You really have to be a creature of great predictability to rely on electric only.
Last edited by: Manatee on Fri 2 Oct 15 at 10:50
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>> That's the point ON its not meant to replace every single type of persons journeys.
>> But it can cover quite a few peoples typical journey.
Indeed. There are many thousands, million even, of cars in UK that never, or only very rarely go more than 50-60 miles in a day. If the cost per mile of electric motoring an be significantly less than IC engines then electric cars will be a real option for many commuters, school run/shopping drivers etc. If my only need was my three round trips a week to work plus down to Towcester or the shopping now and then I'd have one.
PLenty Leafs, Twizzys etc in central London. I've commented before here on the Twizzy's incredible acceleration in traffic - I'd love that.
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>> PLenty Leafs, Twizzys etc in central London. I've commented before here on the Twizzy's incredible
>> acceleration in traffic - I'd love that.
And the bonus is that cyclists can't hear them coming.
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>> Indeed. There are many thousands, million even, of cars in UK that never, or only
>> very rarely go more than 50-60 miles in a day. If the cost per mile
>> of electric motoring an be significantly less than IC engines then electric cars will be
>> a real option for many commuters, school run/shopping drivers etc. If my only need was
>> my three round trips a week to work plus down to Towcester or the shopping
>> now and then I'd have one.
But its not, so you don't, just like all the other millions of drivers for whom electric cars are not practical. I bet you 90% of electric car drivers have another IC engined car as well. Creating a need to double the amount of cars on the road is a great idea.
At the end of the day, electric technology is nowhere near as practical as an IC, its been that way for over 100 years, and there is at present no solution in sight to change that.
Last edited by: Zero on Fri 2 Oct 15 at 10:00
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>> But its not, so you don't, just like all the other millions of drivers for
>> whom electric cars are not practical. I bet you 90% of electric car drivers have
>> another IC engined car as well. Creating a need to double the amount of cars
>> on the road is a great idea.
>>
>> At the end of the day, electric technology is nowhere near as practical as an
>> IC, its been that way for over 100 years, and there is at present no
>> solution in sight to change that.
>>
Like Zed said. In order for electric cars to be a practical proposition for some people some of the time we need all the required charging infrastructure all of the time. Which isn't going to happen, for reasons already stated.
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>> But its not, so you don't, just like all the other millions of drivers for
>> whom electric cars are not practical. I bet you 90% of electric car drivers have
>> another IC engined car as well. Creating a need to double the amount of cars
>> on the road is a great idea.
There are plenty of families with 2+ cars already. The only one car household in my road is No23 and she's a divorcee living alone. If the cost of electric miles was low enough to be an incentive then you'd get a take up of e-cars. If no other way Road User charging, which will eventually happen, ould be designed to that end.
We currently run two interchangeable cars 'cos it's convenient with kids at Uni etc and the older one is paid for and still functions. If, in 2-3 years time, the older 'lingo has reached the end of the road and an e-car offered significantly cheaper commuting we could organise around it.
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Yeah, on the ev forums nobody is buying a new ev as WELL as an ice. They are retiring the second run around ice car or swapping it out as the time comes.
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I bet you 90% of electric car drivers have
>> another IC engined car as well. Creating a need to double the amount of cars
>> on the road is a great idea.
I wonder how many are changing one of their ic cars for an ecar rather than buying an extra car?
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I've mentioned this here before but you're all assuming the only viable model for electric vehicles is a fixed battery that must be recharged in situ. But consider the bottled gas model: users exchange an empty cylinder for one that's been refilled somewhere else. Petrol stations in France have racks of the things outside from which customers help themselves. (Not sure how they pay but I presume they do.)
So instead of a gas cylinder, how about a standard battery pack that can be swapped for a full one by a robot installed in the floor of a station forecourt? The empty pack goes to an underground charging chamber (plenty of space where the hydrocarbon tanks used to be) to be replenished ready for the next customer. No need to rewire anyone's home, and the whole exchange (with payment online by a subscription model, like motorway toll tags) would take no longer than filling up does today.
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Battery swap is exactly the business model Renault said they were going to do about five years ago, and then abandoned.
Last edited by: Crankcase on Fri 2 Oct 15 at 10:13
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>> So instead of a gas cylinder, how about a standard battery pack
there is no standard, there is no standard size of pack, there is no standard capacity of pack and there is no standard shape of pack. The packs are so big and take up so much room that each is different depending on how the makers packages the rest of the car.
>> forecourt? The empty pack goes to an underground charging chamber (plenty of space where the
>> hydrocarbon tanks used to be)
So we all have to give up using our hydrocarbon based cars all at once do we. How about, say, on monday week? It will only take about 10 years to dig up all the forecourts across the country. Maybe the industry might have standardised on battery by then.
Oh wait,
Technology might have changed, different batteries coming in. Make that 20 years.
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>> Oh wait,
>>
>> Technology might have changed, different batteries coming in. Make that 20 years.
>>
Or even dig up the forecourt yet again to install tanks for liquid hydrogen. If it hasn't been sold for housing. :-)
Last edited by: Old Navy on Fri 2 Oct 15 at 10:36
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Obviously many here aren't particularly interested in the whole EV thing, and that's fine of course. No reason why you should be if it's not your thing.
But if you DO want to find out a bit more, or want some of these questions answered, I can recommend a trip over to
speakev.com/
Where a friendly bunch, admittedly converts to the cause of course, discuss every conceivable wrinkle about ev motoring in Britain today.
No drum to bang, not (quite) gone for it myself, but it's very much in the "might just try that" box for me. I just can't QUITE make the sums work out yet, and I'm motivated only really by finance, not by greenery.
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>> Obviously many here aren't particularly interested in the whole EV thing, and that's fine of
>> course. No reason why you should be if it's not your thing.
Of course we are interested, but for many, most of us, its not practical, and it certainly wont be in my remaining lifetime.
In my own case, I have averaged 20k miles a year for the last 5 years, and use my car every day. No way is that kind of usage feasible with current battery technology, from any maker. .
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>> In my own case, I have averaged 20k miles a year for the last 5
>> years, and use my car every day. No way is that kind of usage feasible
>> with current battery technology, from any maker. .
Sure, but you seem to be saying that because it doesn't fit YOUR needs, which are not those of a Large Chunk of the population, it's never going to happen. It's never going to happen for YOU, but it might well happen for someone else with a different pattern. Does Mrs Z have a car? Does she do 20k a year? How about all your neighbours?
It's certainly true that as I sit in my lovely Volvo in narrow Cambridge streets day in day out with the diesel ticking over in traffic jams, I do wonder from time to time if it would be better to not do that, and kind of hope that the equivalent pollution back at the power station would be better managed if I went electric. For example.
Then I think how nice the Volvo is and put off thinking about it all a bit more, but that may not always be true as the ev offerings improve.
Last edited by: Crankcase on Fri 2 Oct 15 at 11:18
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>> Does Mrs Z have a car? Does she do 20k a
>> year?
Yes she does, no she doesn't. She does a 5 mile each way daily commute. BUT on occasion she will do a longer trip. A longer trip that will leave her stranded by the roadside with zero volts, or stuck at a charging station for hours on end.
So its no good for her either. And the fact that no-one is buying them, despite the idea they are very cheap to run, suggest its not good for mr or mrs average.
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"I'm motivated only really by finance, not by greenery"
You can be certain that if EV's are taken up in quantity, the VED rules will be changed! The Norwegian government has already removed a tax break for such vehicles because it/they suddenly became popular.
In any case, the notion that they are 'zero emission' is completely bogus - like all cars, they consume large quantities of energy and materials (batteries especially) during manufacture and unless they are exclusively charged from a nuclear or hydro-electric plant, the electricity will involve some fossil fuel in the making.
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>> You can be certain that if EV's are taken up in quantity, the VED rules
>> will be changed!
Dead right, which is why now is a great time to take advantage of free or really cheap charging, no tax, 5k purchase price subsidy and free home charger. Likely to be that way for a couple of years at least, which is just long enough for a pcp deal to run and then one can review the landscape then.
If one were in the market, of course.
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So we all have to give up using our hydrocarbon based cars all at once do we?
Where do I say that? I'm describing a to-be situation; of course there'll be a transition, probably a long one. Remember that it took a long time for diesel pumps to become commonplace on forecourts; I'm sure there were people in the 1970s who insisted diesel cars would never catch on because there was nowhere to fill up.
As for Renault, presumably their replaceable battery model was a proprietary one, which presents obvious practical problems. I'm suggesting a standard, or a small set of standards, as we have with hydrocarbon fuels. Yes, other developments will be required, but are you assuming everything else will remain exactly as it is today?
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>> Where do you say that? well you said we need to start digging out the tanks of the hydro carbon garages. Unless of course you plan to double the size of all forecourts.
Neither is practical, neither is going to happen.
>> with hydrocarbon fuels. Yes, other developments will be required, but are you assuming everything else
>> will remain exactly as it is today?
No, but the point is you are expecting us to transition and standardise to a technology that is not mature enough, and will change, and you are expecting us to put in an infrastructure that will take so long we will be forced to accept the old out of date technology.
putting facilities in place to change the packs of 50 million cars on the road is a non starter..
Last edited by: Zero on Fri 2 Oct 15 at 10:59
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This is what happened to the Renault project...
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Better_Place
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"people in the 1970s who insisted diesel cars would never catch on"
And now they'll wish they hadn't! :-)
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Friends have a Tesla and a Leaf. They say the Tesla will do 250 miles and a 170 mile boost takes 20 mins (coffee break). I could live with that, if only they weren't so darned pricey!
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>> Friends have a Tesla and a Leaf. They say the Tesla will do 250 miles
>> and a 170 mile boost takes 20 mins (coffee break). I could live with that,
>> if only they weren't so darned pricey!
>>
Lucky devil, what are their impression of the tesla?
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If, and I stress if, the planned Tesla model 3 does launch in 2017, with the 250 mile range and the price of 35000 dollars that is promised, that will be a shake up in the ev market. They launched their new model X with funky falcon wing doors and a HUGE price tag only, well, yesterday.
Don't forget there already are on sale today electric or hybrid electric cars by BMW, Mercedes, Renault, Ford, Nissan, Peugeot, Citroen, VW, Audi plus whatever I've forgotten...and more coming on stream over the next couple of years. They might be doing it to hit legal emissions targets rather than actually wanting to develop it, but unless something wonderful happens to clean up hydrocarbons it will have to be ev or partial ev, because the legal requirements are only going one way in Europe at least.
Toyota are a law unto themselves at the minute. Remains to be seen if they've backed the right horse or not with that Mirai abortion.
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A 250 mile range, brilliant! There are three Tesla recharge points in Scotland, all south of the central belt so you could almost get to the north coast but not get back. It is a bit like an inner city milk float.
Last edited by: Old Navy on Fri 2 Oct 15 at 18:09
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Well my Volvo has about a 600 mile range but no way it will get me round the moon. No filling stations there. Piece of junk that's entirely useless, obviously, and nobody could ever possibly want one.
:)
Edit: Tesla can charge outside their network too. If you want to see how many public chargers there are already, you may be surprised.
www.zap-map.com/live/
Last edited by: Crankcase on Fri 2 Oct 15 at 18:17
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Edinburgh airport is in the central belt, shirley?
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It is south of the Forth and the north coast is 260 miles away. :-)
Last edited by: Old Navy on Fri 2 Oct 15 at 18:17
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They like it. I must hitch a ride in it and report back!
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>> They like it.
I should hope so, when you look at what the things cost. The thing is, if I'm going to blow approx £50000 on a car, I can think of some very tasty metal. Th fact it might not run on electricity wouldn't even come into it.
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Yes, hopelessly out of my price range, and by the time I could afford a second-hand one I'm sure the electrics would be playing up. Something which you can't really ignore on an electric car!!
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The future is hybrid. Real hybrid, not as we know it. Some form of carbon and or natural gaseus combustion unit, solar charging, energy recovery through braking ( currently p poor in the commercial sector, much more advanced in F1), battery technology actaully forming part of the structure, etc etc.
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There's a lot less energy to recover in road cars. The Outlander PHEV has controllable harvesting, which interested me - I am very light on brakes, consequently I am sometimes overtaken when approaching roundabouts by people who flash by with the brake lights on, as I tend to lift off from 70mph about 400m away: if I could slow down in a shorter distance while recovering the energy, I could delay that lift.
The PHEV can 'generate' marked retardation - a slight concern is that it doesn't activate the brake lights!
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Shame MDI can't perfect their compressed air engine.
It may have the same range as electric cars but it can be refilled in a couple of minutes as convenient as a petrol car
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>> It may have the same range as electric cars
Up to 300 miles?
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Test drove a Leaf yesterday. Interesting experience. We liked it a lot.
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I've been a passenger in one. Driven in the dry and wet.
What no one seems to explain is regardless of road surface or hills the 0 to 60 time is still the same.
Loads of torque like a diesel just in one continuous gear
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Leaf now has option for 30kWh battery instead of 24kWh (costs about £1600 more for 6kWh which seems fairly cheap - presumably a bit of subsidy in there)
I expect that brings range to 120-140miles realistically.
Would be a bigger seller if they pumped the 109PS engine up to 150+ (electric motors are pretty much the same efficiency whatever the nominal power output is... unless you give it more welly of course)
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...regardless of road surface or hills the 0 to 60 time is still the same.
Eh? It must still require grip and be subject to gravity.
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Perhaps it's 'limited' in some way.
If the level 0-60 time is achieved using full power, then it must be slower uphill as the same power has more work to do.
There was one at Kop Hill a couple of weeks ago. It certainly looked lively up the hill. I suspect I saw the same car travelling south on the A1 the previous day; a lustrous metallic red, showroom condition.
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I am not 100% sure if the leaf has it but traction control (if fitted) seems to retard the electric motor better than an ICE engine with traction control. just a little squeel every now and then when pulling away.
as for the 0 to 60 time, I had wondered if it's limited in some sort of way as the one I was in was no different acceleration times if it was just two adults in the car or four and if it was on the flat or pulling away going up hill.
I suspect the range would take a hit if it was constantly floored pulling away up hill.
something has to give. lol
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A bit late to this but have a question.
Niece is a student in Edinburgh, her old Clio has packed up, needs a car for the next 2 years while she is there, most of the travel is in Edinburgh and the outskirts.
An electric car sounds ideal for her needs as long as she could get it charged at her flat.
Thinking if she took a 2 year PCP type thing and then handed it back after the 2 years would it be a cheap way of motoring? A quick glance on Renaults website for a Zoe suggests a monthly payment of about £90 but then need to add battery hire on top of that which makes it much more expensive.
Any suggestions?
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Tricky. You're going to be about £145, probably on a Zoe.
There's not really anything cheaper. You could look at a Peugeot ION or a Mitsubishi I-Miev, which start at about 5k on Autotrader, but monthly over 24 months that's still more than a new Zoe, although of course you'd get something back at the end (who knows how much?).
Those are nice little runarounds, but only runarounds - range is about 35 to 50 miles is all.
There's still a premium to be paid for EV - depends on whether you think the extra cost for the "green" solution actually on the streets and low fuel price is worth it.
Otherwise, buy a secondhand Aygo or something and chop it back in after two years. No tax, cheap to run and insure, sips fuel.
Anyway, doesn't Edinburgh have a fabby tram system?
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Only if you are on the (very limited) route!
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I had Pug iOn for a mornings fun and luved it - good acceleration when you hit the, um, gas - I could live with one.
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>> An electric car sounds ideal for her needs as long as she could get it
>> charged at her flat.
>>
Parking can be a nightmare in Edinburgh, unless she has a dedicated parking space it would be a non starter. :-)
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Ecotricity have a free charger at IKEA in Edinburgh (will give about 80% charge to a Zoe/Leaf in 20-30mins).
There are about 20 other charging points in Edinburgh and I expect more coming online all the time:
www.greenerscotland.org/greener-travel/electric-vehicles/charge-point-map
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>> unless she has a dedicated parking space it
>> would be a non starter. :-)
>>
Only if she was unable to charge it the night before :-)
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I was thinking Aygo as well, although generally I recommend the C1, it's usually a bit cheaper. I have sourced a few of these for friend's sons/daughters in recent years. Ultra reliable petrol chain-cam Toyota engine whichever version you get. Kia Picanto might be another option, similar qualities on offer.
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Had my first, and probably last, good poke around a Tesla today. Can you believe a showroom in a shopping mall? Fashion Square, Scottsdale AZ, a five minute walk from my hovel, I mean motel. Several huge touch screen TVs on the walls giving all the info you could want. It was quiet, being a Monday morning, so I had the salesmans undivided attention. He wanted to know all about dry stone walls in the Dales and JCs recent spat in my part of the world!
Played with the huge touch screen in the Tesla for 30 minutes... 300 mile range at 65mph allegedly. Didn't place an order. No sunroof.
A few people wandered in and bought Tesla clothing merchandise, but no $10 jackets ( I'm on a cheapskates budget trip) so left empty handed. I have a well used 'Grand Depart' TDF tee I would swap but think I'd be on a loser.
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Electric cars - Alanovich
