Odd tale - car reported to have left the M9 carriageway and Police attend 3 days later to find a dead driver and critically ill passenger on board.
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-tayside-central-33438667
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Shame for the couple.
Not only had this been reported to the police on Sunday but last night the Police were tweeting messages asking if they had been spotted as were reported missing.
If only they had been speeding by 2mph then you can be certain Police Scotland would have found them!
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Sadly, the lady has now died as well. Kidney failure due to dehydration was mentioned.
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The one size fits all Police Scotland project and its Chief Constable which have already been heavily criticised will come under even closer scrutiny now. Stop and search policy, the arming of police on routine patrols, and the Glasgowification of rural areas have all caused concern. As has the lack of local knowledge in cetralised contact centers which has been causing problems. In some areas it is known as Glasgow police Scotland. I know that our local traffic police were not impressed when their newish cars were transferred to the west to be replaced by older cars when the single force was set up, although they seem to have newer cars again now.
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It is, to be sure, a severe and tragic cock-up by the jock plod.
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>> It is, to be sure, a severe and tragic cock-up by the jock plod.
>>
Whatever you do, do not drink and drive (even the day after), and be careful of your speed up here. That they are good at.
Last edited by: Old Navy on Sun 12 Jul 15 at 15:16
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>> Whatever you do, do not drink and drive (even the day after),
Frankly, more power to their elbow on that one. DUI on the 'morning after' is far too prevalent though it needs public education as well as enforcement.
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I think the lower drink drive limit up here has had more of a psychological effect than anything. I saw some figures about convictions recently and the people caught in the bracket between the new and old alcohol limits were very few, most would have failed the test on the old limit.
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Presumably there will be a full inquiry in due course with all facts on the table. One thing if multiple calls were overlooked/ignored another if a single isolated report was filtered out or the location was erroneously reported. Since there were no further sightings it seems likely the car, having left the road, was well concealed from passing traffic.
IIRC there was a similar incident in the Home Counties ten or so years ago. In that case the coppers sent to look didn't try hard enough and were disciplined.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Sun 12 Jul 15 at 15:35
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>> IIRC there was a similar incident in the Home Counties ten or so years ago.
>> In that case the coppers sent to look didn't try hard enough and were disciplined.
>>
There have been reports in the press that the call was not logged into the police computer system. It has raised questions about centralised contact centres, procedures, not scapegoating anyone if there has been a systemic failure in the unified Police Scotland. As in politicians on the bandwagon.
Last edited by: Old Navy on Sun 12 Jul 15 at 15:42
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When the police made the announcement that the male had been killed and female injured, they announced in the same statement that it had been reported on the Sunday but not followed up.
I have wondered if there is anything to be read into that. Obviously it is good that there was no hint of trying to cover it up but it also seems overly transparent to announce in the same statement?
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>> One thing if multiple calls were overlooked/ignored another if a single isolated report was
>> filtered out or the location was erroneously reported. Since there were no further sightings it
>> seems likely the car, having left the road, was well concealed from passing traffic.
You have tho, the left hand working on a reported but not found accident, and the right hand working on a "have you seen" missing persons, the arms and body in the middle cocked up.
All WTBOH of course.
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>> Whatever you do, do not drink and drive (even the day after), and be careful
>> of your speed up here. That they are good at.
>>
Depends where you go. If you are near a large town or city, maybe so...out in the sticks, forget it.
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Agreed, it is a big place and a lot of it is thinly populated. It is a case of knowing your patch. :-)
Last edited by: Old Navy on Sun 12 Jul 15 at 15:34
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Tragic cock-up, yes. But also I would think very, very unusual.
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>> Tragic cock-up, yes. But also I would think very, very unusual.
>>
Don't forget that nine police forces have been combined, many people moved around, procedures changed, and many functions centralised. Basically Strathclyde police have taken over responsibility for the whole of Scotland. The old favourites have been rolled out as PR, Speeding and drink driving crackdown. You can see above some of the problems it has caused above.
Last edited by: Old Navy on Sun 12 Jul 15 at 16:03
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So you think political monkeying around is going to lead to a lot more of the same ON? You could easily be right.
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>> So you think political monkeying around is going to lead to a lot more of
>> the same ON? You could easily be right.
>>
It has not gone well, just what the politicians need for a hot air exchange.
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Met 2 coppers 2 miles from their car on the Forth & Clyde canal with 3 guys who looked as if they had been fishing. One guy had got away from them, I cycled on to see if he was about but wasn't.
Wondered what the police were going to do next, frogmarch them back?
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Hmm.
Sunday Times has a piece saying a police whistle blower contacted a Lib Dem politician a month before this tragedy stating there were 'a catalogue of failings due to crippling staff shortages and cutbacks' and that "this has disaster written all over it".
No link as it's a subscription only and you can only read the first bit.
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This is a terrible sequence of events. The person who dialled 101 to report a car off the road must be feeling terrible. Surely they should have stopped and checked the car at which point they'd know that dialling 999 was appropriate. And if you didn't know the car was empty, why dial 101 as this could have been (and was!) an emergency situation.
For all we know, the officer answering the 101 call thought this was a non-emergency accident but he should still have recorded the details for someone to check this out.
The poor woman passenger might still have died from other injuries but dying from kidney failure sounds like she'd be alive if someone had got her to hospital sooner.
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>>Surely they should have stopped and checked the car
It was off a Motorway, and as far as I know the crash had not been witnessed by the person.
The acted correctly.
>>The poor woman passenger might still have died from other injuries but dying from kidney failure sounds like she'd be alive if someone had got her to hospital sooner.
Obviously this will come out in the wash, but I expect you are right unless she had suffered a massive brain injury.
Last edited by: Lygonos on Mon 13 Jul 15 at 10:44
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>> >>Surely they should have stopped and checked the car
>>
>> It was off a Motorway, and as far as I know the crash had not
>> been witnessed by the person.
>>
>> The acted correctly.
If it was not a motorway I would have (and have done in the past have) checked the car for occupants if at all possible. Thats the reason for "police aware" stickers.
The bit that gets me is than in press photos of the scene, signs of an accident (skid marks, torn up soft grass shoulder, beaten down foliage) are all easily apparent. Based on that and later reports its pretty clear no-one from the force went to (or were asked to) go to the approximate area.
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>>The bit that gets me is than in press photos of the scene, signs of an accident (skid marks, torn up soft grass shoulder, beaten down foliage) are all easily apparent. Based on that and later reports its pretty clear no-one from the force went to (or were asked to) go to the approximate area.
We know no-one went to investigate as the info wasn't passed to the officers on the ground.
My colleague passes the crash site every day and says there is almost nothing to see - the skidmarks have been highlighted with yellow paint but otherwise are very missable when driving past.
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>> My colleague passes the crash site every day and says there is almost nothing to
>> see - the skidmarks have been highlighted with yellow paint but otherwise are very missable
>> when driving past.
>>
The guy who originally reported the car was quoted on the lunch time TV news. He saw it from the quiet road that runs alongside the motorway, it was not visible from the motorway.
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Many moons ago on a nice sunny day, in Holland somewhere, we were being driven by a friend and I saw a van on its side down an embankment. We immediately stopped and went to check things out.
The driver was still in the vehicle with the radio playing and a smell of petrol.
We did not see the van leave the road and we assumed nobody else did.
No idea how long it had been there but we were glad we stopped.
We flagged down locals who called the boys. No idea of the outcome.
With l so many mobile phones, events are much more likely to get reported these days.
I have always reported " events" to 999 just in case I am the the first.
e.g a woman, apparently on her own, in the dark, late a night standing on the hard shoulder of the M25 near a car. Not happy at seeing that sort of scene.
I have only once got a not very helpful operator who couuld not understand that I was in a totally unfamiliar are so it was difficult for me to zero in on where I was .
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A long and very scary story cut short -
New Years Day, 6:00am, icy and freezing cold. Going up the A34 to the M4 on my way to a surfing competition, driving a Frontera pulling a trailer full of surfing / windsurfing gear..
Dual carriageway, metal central barrier.
I saw a Ford Orion upside down in a ditch on the opposite carriageway, lights on, engine running, baby [silent] in child seat in the back, woman unconscious upside down in the drivers seat in the front.
Got them both out, later discovered to be uninjured, into my car having smashed the drivers window to get into the Orion. A passing gritter with CB whistled up the police after a while. [Remarkably ungracious when they did show up].
All very scary.
I've never driven past without stopping and checking at an accident or incident since.
Last edited by: No FM2R on Mon 13 Jul 15 at 21:42
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>> >>Surely they should have stopped and checked the car
>>
>> It was off a Motorway, and as far as I know the crash had not
>> been witnessed by the person.
>>
>> The acted correctly.
Yes, IMO the person did act correctly. It would be a bit different if he'd witnessed the crash, but he didn't. As far as I am concerned he did his civic duty bit and called it in.
I've always been a bit Capt Sensible and will still call things in now, despite being out of that game for 4 years now... however, unless i'd just witnessed it going off the road.. or there was some other obvious sign of recent accident or need for help... I wouldn't stop on a fast road and traipse down an embankment...i'd ring it in... and expect the police to do it.
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>> Hmm.
>>
>> 'a catalogue of failings due to crippling staff shortages and cutbacks' and that "this has disaster written all over it"
The Police Scotland project has been seen as a cost saving process similar to the closing of some A&E units. There have been a lot of problems with the dilution of local knowledge particularly at management levels and with the centralisation of contact points with people being moved about. This has been in the local press, a national level cock up might just concentrate a few minds on the problems. Maybe nine police forces was a few too many particularly in the central belt and south but Joe public see a decline in the service provided. The arming of police concern (IMO) was caused by the armed response unit police wearing their pistols when they were backing up the local PCs sorting out routine incidents like the scrotes having a domestic, the obvious armed response was seen as OTT. It also puts the armed copper in a difficult position, his priority will be protecting his weapon. Not easy when sorting out a bunch of drunks shouting " Give us a go of your gun " or even trying to grab it. In the military you learn very early not to mess with armed sentries, you will get flattened and then locked up
Last edited by: Old Navy on Mon 13 Jul 15 at 11:04
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Don't know too much about the Scottish governmental hierarchy, but whoever took the decision to create the Glasgow centric police force should be considering his/her position!
I bet the Sturgeon woman was involved!
Last edited by: Rick O'Shea on Mon 13 Jul 15 at 13:00
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>> Don't know too much about the Scottish governmental hierarchy, but whoever took the decision to
>> create the Glasgow centric police force should be considering his/her position!
It's all about money saving.
I'd hazard a guess that someone at the coal face will cop it... now if they've badly neglected their duty, then fair enough... however, if it's someone juggling a work load that is grossly unrealistic and working in an environment where they virtually have to cut corners to make the system work... then it will be unfortunate.
Time will tell.
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SQ for LB
>> Time will tell.
and with such a large restructuring, there are bound to be back office process and procedure failures. I bet its not the first time stuff like this has happened since the smash together.
Last edited by: VxFan on Mon 13 Jul 15 at 19:53
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>> and with such a large restructuring, there are bound to be back office process and
>> procedure failures. I bet its not the first time stuff like this has happened since
>> the smash together.
>>
What I used to find exceptionally frustrating and irritating.. was when there was a problem, you had to just get on with it... until it all went wrong.
Then you were criticised for the bit that went wrong.. and for not doing something about the problem...yet everyone knew about the problem.
Stroppy sods like me would on occasions become a real pain in the rear about it... submit formal reports, speak with more senior managers on a one to one basis, raise it with the Federation, speak about it at training events when a senior manager attended at the end.... but it was like swimming in quicksand... (on one occasion, as a sergeant, I submitted a report asking for permission to speak with my MP, because I couldn't get any help anywhere else... my Chief Superintendent called me up to his office, laughed at my bolshy approach...and agreed he'd kick butt and sort it out for me, which he did. I could never work out why the tits in the middle hierarchy couldn't see it and deal with it).
So in the end you just get on with it, do your best ... and hope to hell it doesn't go breasts up on your watch.
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>> and with such a large restructuring, there are bound to be back office process and
>> procedure failures. I bet its not the first time stuff like this has happened since
>> the smash together.
>>
Yes there have been cock ups, I am sure more than have been reported in the local press, as far as I know this is the first one with fatal consequences.
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Police Scotland and SNP really have their challenges. For some reason the two seem hand in hand especially Stephen House and the previous SNP justice guy McCaskill. Not surprisingly, they have both announced they are leaving their jobs next year, I wonder if they have a joint working plan up their sleeve.........
I have also heard from a very good source that House has one of those "super" things that can't be talked about.
In Scotland we also have the Offensive Behaviour at Football Act which basically means that if you sing something that can be deemed to be offensive within a mile of a football ground , you can be charged. This has more holes in it than a Tetley T Bag and someone I know was up in court for this today and he received an absolute discharge.
The worrying thing is this was the 15th appearance in court for this charge. What a humungous waste of resource, money and time. This is the SNP's making.
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>> Police Scotland and SNP really have their challenges. For some reason the two seem hand in hand
'For some reason'? Do me a favour. What serious political party doesn't cosy up to the fuzz, local and national? Like Parliament and the armed forces they are a main pillar of the state (I won't add 'God help us').
You're right about the rest of it Bobby. Far too much political faffing and far too many silly laws and regulations, enough to send a decent copper mad if he's got tiresome superiors...
(Naturally of course I agree that Jock footy hooligans should be suppressed when possible).
:o}
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Just a cautionary note as to why you should not stop your car in the middle of nowhere at night:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=RU8nalnppLk
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An indication of the money saving chaos that the closing of many police control rooms has caused in Scotland.
www.thecourier.co.uk/news/scotland/police-control-room-staff-told-to-log-calls-with-pen-and-paper-1.889692
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We used to have a manned police station.I think now it is used to have a kip in.Three days in a car whilst it was reported off the road.Somebody cocked up but who is willing to take responsibility or blame for this.
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>> An indication of the money saving chaos that the closing of many police control rooms
>> has caused in Scotland.
>>
>> www.thecourier.co.uk/news/scotland/police-control-room-staff-told-to-log-calls-with-pen-and-paper-1.889692
>>
Well that's looking better for the sergeant who took the first call then.
Untrained in the computer, unsure of the procedures and a chaotic system of paper and e-mails.
Meanwhile two people died.
I know exactly how this has come about. They've centralised everything to save money and the civilian staff who habitually work in that environment have declined to move when their local control room has shut down (as they didn't want to work a great distance away from where they live).. so police officers have been drafted in, as they can be told to work anywhere you want them in their force area, (which in this case is anywhere in Scotland).
Trouble is police officers don't tend to work the control rooms much in this day and age (for money saving reasons), so not many now have the skills.
Sounds like very poor transitional planning and a haphazard approach to risk.
Maybe the coalface can breathe a little easier and someone in a management grade is sweating now.
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When you consider they are shunting calls between Glasgow, Inverness (170 miles) and Dundee (80 miles) you can see the lack of local knowledge. Satnav is good but does not compare with local knowledge. WP you are right about many civilian control centre staff being made redundant, same has happened with the fire service. There was a plan to combine all emergency services control rooms, I think the fire service union stopped that one.
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Different problem BUT has a connection to M9 deaths.
11 days ago - Police Call Centre could not locate Pensioner reporting a problem.....
Operator has no "local knowledge" after Dumfries call centre closed!
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-south-scotland-33367973
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>> WP you are right about many civilian control centre staff being
>> made redundant, same has happened with the fire service. There was a plan to combine
>> all emergency services control rooms, I think the fire service union stopped that one.
>>
I'm generally in favour of the cutbacks this country has done to save money, we had to do something and Greece is a good pointer at how it can ultimately all go wrong.
However, there have to be some balances and checks.
In my old lot, there's some quite considerable griping and some sane people are telling me they are nearing a point where they can't cope. I'm beginning to see old faces leave early.
I don't have all the answers, we do need to rein in our spending, yet some things should not be cut to the absolute bone.
It would be wrong of me to say the Old Bill need to be left alone for a bit... because no doubt others will say likewise... however, I do think it and... there are going to be big problems ahead.
The most senior managers will not call it as it is, they constantly keep trying to fudge it and make things work, even if it is an impossibility. The truth would do us all a favour.
I suppose the politicians will just move on a Chief Constable who gets awkward.. and replace them with someone who won't.
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Are you or your colleagues prevented from working efficiently by a huge excess of petty regulations enforced by brainless jobsworths Westpig?
There's a lot of it about I sometimes think.
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>> Are you or your colleagues prevented from working efficiently by a huge excess of petty
>> regulations enforced by brainless jobsworths Westpig?
Do you mean HR?
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>> a huge excess of petty regulations enforced by brainless jobsworths Westpig?
>> Do you mean HR?
If that's what they call it now, probably yes.
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The chief constable must be on thin ice, I can't see the politicians taking any responsibility for their decisions.
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>> Still not getting any better for Police Scotland:
>>
>> www.express.co.uk/news/uk/592312/Police-Scotland-staff-crisis
>>
Not sure that means much - if they're cutting the numbers of contres from 8 to 3 then a lot of people are going to lose their jobs anyway, or be asked to comute to some distant location.
When the Insolvency Service, whom my wife used to work for, offered voluntary redundancy just after the last election (5yrs ago) slightly over half of the the staff across the country applied (not just expressed interest, as in the above article). They wanted 25% and in the end let about a third go. And that was a cushy Civil Service job, but people could see the writing on the wall.
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Although you can possibly see how easy this was to happen, it makes things even worse for Police Scotland
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-tayside-central-33688928
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This country is quite thinly policed having few of the security problems that plague less fortunate places.
Unless there are black marks and tussocks all over the road it must be easy for cruising plod to miss someone upside down in the ditch.
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>> This country is quite thinly policed
So shouldn't they take more notice of alerts from the public?
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>> So shouldn't they take more notice of alerts from the public?
When there are any.
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>> >> So shouldn't they take more notice of alerts from the public?
>>
>> When there are any.
...which is (mainly) what the fuss is about in these cases - the alerts, such as they were, were ignored.
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Daily Mail reports
It turns out the car driver did not, and never possessed, a full driving licence.
He was a provisional licence holder and the passenger was not a licence holder.
Apparently he had driven for years - obviously illegally.
I know the main issue is the Police did not follow up on a car being reported as having run off the road BUT the fact he was driving without a licence is significant in some respects.
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Thought they looked like meth-heads.
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>> I know the main issue is the Police did not follow up on a car
>> being reported as having run off the road BUT the fact he was driving without
>> a licence is significant in some respects.
FWIW I'd be prepared to try and explain why Scotplod apparently failed to find the car. In what respect exactly, even if inexperience was contributory to car leaving road, does it make a difference that driver was unlicenced?
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does
>> it make a difference that driver was unlicenced?
>>
Contributed to them being off road to start with?
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Bromp's point is that the Emergency Services' duty is to clear up first and investigate later.
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>> I know the main issue is the Police did not follow up on a car
>> being reported as having run off the road BUT the fact he was driving without
>> a licence is significant in some respects.
Its significant in no respects. Nothing to do with why they died.
Last edited by: Zero on Sat 19 Sep 15 at 22:23
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>> Its significant in no respects. Nothing to do with why they died.
>>
I beg to differ.
An inexperienced driver who habitually flouts the law is considerably more likely to have an accident...and this one did... a bad one, which seriously injured him and contributed to his death.
Separate to that, Scottish Old Bill badly messed up because of their control room issues, which exacerbated the above.
There were two wrongs.
You cannot state that some clown who habitually drove with no licence, who had a bad accident due to his own failings had 'nothing' to do with his own death. If he hadn't driven down an embankment at speed he wouldn't be dead.
Last edited by: Webmaster on Tue 6 Oct 15 at 08:55
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Was the cause of the off road excursion ever found out? Blown tyre? Maybe swerved to avoid an animal? It might never be known, although as Westpig says, and two local police friends confirm, those driving illegally are statistically more likely to have an accident, although this one wasn't necessarily of the drivers own doing. I could be wrong of course.
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>> I beg to differ.
Well I blowed, what a suprise.
>> An inexperienced driver who habitually flouts the law is considerably more likely to have an
>> accident...and this one did... a bad one, which seriously injured him and contributed to his
>> death.
>> You cannot state that some clown who habitually drove with no licence, who had a
>> bad accident due to his own failings had 'nothing' to do with his own death.
>> If he hadn't driven down an embankment at speed he wouldn't be dead.
How does "habitual" and "Inexperienced" co exist in the same statement? Could it not be that he habitually got away with it because he remained under the radar by not having accidents and getting caught?
Given that can you categorically state the accident was his own fault? No you can't, nor can I.
They died because the police cocked up. .
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Let us imagine a scenario where police have already stopped investigate 'odd' number crimes, the next stage is to stop recording them.
The police already do not pursue TWOCers due to the risks involved. Then move on on to a a future with a further reduction in available funds , do they stop 'investigating' the deaths of unlicensed drivers, where no other parties are involved?
Perhaps the ambulance service will leave them by the roadside until next of kin salvage the bits?
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The "odd" number crime is a myth, already de-bunked on here weeks ago. The Police failed in their basic duty of protecting life in this instance. The "off" that this guy suffered has nothing to do with the incompetence of the way the subsequent RTC it was handled by Police Scotland - thy failed on a massive scale. Discrediting the deceased driver is well out of order. No-one deserves to die in a civilised society in these circumstances - illegal driver or not. Police cock-up. Get over it.
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I'm not sure it's a case of 'discrediting' him. More a case of looking at the whole event in the round. There will be contributory factors, it's not a case of either or.
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>> I'm not sure it's a case of 'discrediting' him. More a case of looking at
>> the whole event in the round. There will be contributory factors, it's not a case
>> of either or.
Yes it is. They were either alive when the incident was reported, or they were not.
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You might think differently if as an unlicenced and uninsured driver he took you off the motorway when he went off.
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>> You might think differently if as an unlicenced and uninsured driver he took you off
>> the motorway when he went off.
He didn't. There is no evidence to suggest he did it to anyone else either. So like any sensible person I don't think differently about it, merely about what actually happened.
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You might think differently if as an unlicenced and uninsured driver he took you off the motorway when he went off.
You mean expect the police to rescue me, but not tell them he was there too? Er, no. Surprised you don't get that rescue and investigation are two entirely separate duties. WP at least seems to understand that.
Last edited by: WillDeBeest on Sun 20 Sep 15 at 10:15
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>> Yes it is. They were either alive when the incident was reported, or they were
>> not.
or both?
A real life Schrodinger?
Last edited by: VxFan on Sun 20 Sep 15 at 23:09
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>> Yes it is. They were either alive when the incident was reported, or they were
>> not.
>>
Others might be i can assure you I'm not. Just looking at it in the whole rather than one part.
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Of course it's reasonable to speculate that the driver's level of competence and general attitude, as illustrated by his lack of compliance with licensing requirements, will have contributed to the accident and hence to the deaths.
WP made the point that there was a police cock up. But the driver's unlicensed condition or other habits cannot have affected, and could not excuse, the police response since they would have had to find him to know about them.
As usual we have righteous finger pointing here for no good reason at all.
Last edited by: Manatee on Sun 20 Sep 15 at 10:32
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>> How does "habitual" and "Inexperienced" co exist in the same statement?
People at that end of the spectrum have a mindset and skill set that is not up to general lawful driving.
So the physical turning the wheel, changing gears, whatever...yes through habit he will have picked up skill... however, with no expert tuition, no passing of a test, no Highway Code input.. and more importantly, no positive mindset, he'll never reach an acceptable level of driving... so in that sense he is inexperienced and always will be.
>> Could it not be
>> that he habitually got away with it because he remained under the radar by not
>> having accidents and getting caught?
You'd have to be seriously bad or unlucky to get caught doing wrong in today's climate, traffic police are virtually non existent and those left don't concentrate on motoring issues.
>>
>> Given that can you categorically state the accident was his own fault? No you can't,
>> nor can I.
No, but I can make an educated guess.. and 'his own fault' would include neglect of the vehicle. You usually create your own luck in life. How does one come off a fast road embankment? Have you ever been near, have I?
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>> No, but I can make an educated guess.. and 'his own fault' would include neglect
>> of the vehicle. You usually create your own luck in life. How does one come
>> off a fast road embankment? Have you ever been near, have I?
K, so from the comfort of your sofa you have not only concluded that he was an habitual criminal, his driving was dangerous and negligent, his car was also unroadworthy.
I am just waiting for the "scroat got what he deserved"
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>> K, so from the comfort of your sofa you have not only concluded that he
>> was an habitual criminal, his driving was dangerous and negligent, his car was also unroadworthy.
Yes, pretty much, that's my educated guess, gleaned from three decades of not sitting comfortably on my sofa.
I'll happily eat my words if i'm wrong....and you?
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>> I'll happily eat my words if i'm wrong....and you?
Me? I'll happily have my dinner knowing I haven't conveniently poked everyone into their respective boxes.
Mean time the real villains of the piece, politicians, police commissioners, and politically motivated police chief constables wander around unscathed. Happy to say tho in this case the CC got his a*** kicked out.
Last edited by: VxFan on Sun 20 Sep 15 at 23:09
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>> Me? I'll happily have my dinner knowing I haven't conveniently poked everyone into their respective
>> boxes.
Not sure what you mean.... although someone must have worked it out as you've got a 'frowny'.
>> Mean time the real villains of the piece, politicians, police commissioners, and politically motivated police
>> chief constables wander around unscathed. Happy to say tho in this case the CC got
>> his a*** kicked out.
>>
True, although there's more to Stephen House's early retirement than this case.
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>> Not sure what you mean.... although someone must have worked it out as you've got
>> a 'frowny'.
I think he meant that he regarded your phrase 'People at that end of the spectrum have a mindset and skill set that is not up to general lawful driving' as pretty appallingly judgemental.
It won't surprise you to know that I agree with him.
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>> I think he meant that he regarded your phrase 'People at that end of the
>> spectrum have a mindset and skill set that is not up to general lawful driving'
>> as pretty appallingly judgemental.
>>
>> It won't surprise you to know that I agree with him.
Why have you come to that conclusion?
I meant, people who are lawless, don't care about the rules. Did you take it another way, perhaps?
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>>I meant, people who are lawless, don't care about the rules
That part of Falkirk, like every town/city, has its tough parts (and really rough parts). The Sheriff / High Court is there - cuts down on the travel time for locals (only joking)
Parts of town appear in the court section of the local paper week in, week out. The local rag used to give full addresses - number, street, area then the town - it now gives street and town - omitting the area so as to lessen the "black marks" on specific areas. Unfortunately it is the same street names that seem to arise every week!
I know a teacher who was in that school area many years ago - "half the class" were related to each other! If you understand the meaning!!!
Since then matters have got a lot worse, instead of the odd case of deprived kids in a few poor/ non-working households it is now much more widespread - unemployment, drink & Drugs, family break-up + the associated crime to fund the d&D has made life for the "average good citizen", who live in that part, a lot more difficult.
I know nothing of the 2 road crash victims but I am sure much will come out about the background to the accident & the Police errors which turned a road accident, where there was a survivor in the immediate aftermath, into 2 fatalities (and 4 x kids who lost a parent(s).
Last edited by: Falkirk Bairn on Sun 20 Sep 15 at 16:28
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>> Why have you come to that conclusion?
Because it's a reasonable conclusion based on your posts in this thread from early today until that to which Z and I responded.
Even after you've clarified it there's still ambiguity which your last post does not remove.
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So in summary.
Member of the public reports the car going off the road for reasons unknown, not disclosed or not reported.
Police fail to act on the report.
The occupants die some time later.
Whilst the driver of the car may or may not have some culpability for crashing in the first place it still - I think the Police failings trump everything else.
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>> Member of the public reports the car going off the road for reasons unknown, not
>> disclosed or not reported.
>>
>> Police fail to act on the report.
>>
>> The occupants die some time later.
>>
>> Whilst the driver of the car may or may not have some culpability for crashing
>> in the first place it still - I think the Police failings trump everything else.
Don't disagree... mostly... however, I do think there's two parts to it.
1, Driver drives off the road.
2, Police balls up.
Both were needed to have the tragedy... and IMO it is quite likely there was a degree of the driver being a master of his own destiny where the accident comes into being.
If I'm wrong and the enquiry shows the male driver of this case to be a paragon of virtue and I've maligned him on here... then I'll happily say so .... and send a £10 donation to a charity of your choice, with the receipt e-mailed to you.
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Wales Air Ambulance ! ;-)
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I might have missed something here, because it doesn't seem to make sense to me.
The police didn't leave him unattended in his car because of anything about him personally. They screwed it up.
So whether he was an angel or an axe murderer is not really relevant to what happened is it?
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>> Even after you've clarified it there's still ambiguity which your last post does not remove.
>>
Which bit is left ambiguous? It seemed fairly clear to me.
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>> >> Even after you've clarified it there's still ambiguity which your last post does not
>> remove.
>> >>
>>
>> Which bit is left ambiguous? It seemed fairly clear to me.
>>
I think you'll find it's a classic case of what's going on in the mind of the accuser rather than the accused.
I meant people who are lawless, have no regard for the law, engage in criminality. I suspect he thinks I meant poor or disadvantaged people..or something along those lines.
It depends what your interpretation of 'that end of the spectrum' is.
I do find it ironic though that the person who wrote it (me) didn't think that way, but the PC accuser did.
Who is the one with the bad thoughts then?
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When my Father died I returned his licence to DVLA with a covering letter and received a reply thanking me for the return of the licence, expressing their condolences and informing me that their records had been updated accordingly. Fair do's.
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>> When my Father died I returned his licence to DVLA with a covering letter and
>> received a reply thanking me for the return of the licence, expressing their condolences and
>> informing me that their records had been updated accordingly. Fair do's.
>>
Do keep up FC...;-)
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What! Who said that?
Sorry wrong thread :S. Could a mod move to DVLA tread ? Pretty please.
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I was thinking much simpler WP, people who don't have a licence are more likely to have an accident.
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>> I do find it ironic though that the person who wrote it (me) didn't think
>> that way, but the PC accuser did.
Well clearly at least one other person, Zero, read it in same way I did. So not just one PC accuser.
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>>True, although there's more to Stephen House's early retirement than this case
Much of which is "hidden" behind a super injunction that he has had for a few years now.
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Meanwhile, somewhere in Engerland...
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-cambridgeshire-34343385
Three police forces have apologised to a crash victim left in a ditch due to confusion as to which force should attend the call.
The biker crashed near Tilbrook, Cambridgeshire, which borders Bedfordshire and Northamptonshire, on Sunday.
Despite a 999 call going in shortly after 16:00 BST, emergency services did not arrive until 18:40.
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Police Scotland strikes again
88 yr old dementia woman reported missing - police did nothing for 4 days
Body found today - 8 days after initail report to police.
tinyurl.com/nnpd9mm
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Think your text there is slightly misleading - the police did act when reported missing on Wed but they never did anything about the reported sighting they were given on Friday. According to the news there this sighting was then re-reported to them on Tuesday and after this they moved their search to Clydebank and sadly a body was found there today.
Reeks of the same as the M9 case and similar with that, the police have declared this straight away.
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Crash victims in car for 3 days - Bobby
