Many of you will be aware of my intense loathing for cars fitted with French electronics- ie. French cars. Many of you no doubt think I am a prejudiced old nasty smelly ejection of wind from a rear orifice and am prejudiced for no reason but spite....
Just read the Telegraph's long term fleet comments of the Twingo :
" but there are a couple of things that I'd like addressed. Nothing serious, but the brakes seem to have become a little bit spongey, necessitating braking earlier and more softly than I'd like, while the driver's side electric window is a little arthrithic in operation."
www.telegraph.co.uk/cars/long-term-tests/renault-twingo/
and the 308SW:
"The engine management light has come on and won’t go off again – and each time I start the car, a big orange warning saying "Engine repair needed" flashes up on the screen."
www.telegraph.co.uk/cars/long-term-tests/peugeot-308-sw/
Both of these cars are the ONLY French cars in the fleet, both brand new and they have fundamental faults ..
I remain convinced my prejudices are totally justified.. :-)
Last edited by: madf on Mon 8 Jun 15 at 16:49
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They can tell you don't like them and are winding you up madf.
They're alive you know. They have opinions and make judgements.
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Until recently I've been working with some people with similar views to yours on French cars.
I could hardly call them prejudiced, since they were all French.
Their preferred manufacturers were Toyota and Honda (mainly Toyota).
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I've a Toyota, made in France................................................................
........
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>> I've a Toyota, made in France................................................................
>> ........
>>
>>
Is it an Auris or Avensis? If it is, I'll have to tell them and have a laugh.
If not, then I suppose that they are safe.
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I think the auris was, certainly many of the parts are.
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My French built Yaris is now a year old and has been totally defect free. (Up to now). Only four years warranty left.
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That's because it was designed in Japan and built to Japanese standards of quality. The same goes for Toyotas, Hondas and Nissans built in the UK. I don't think there's anything wrong with the workforce in the factories, provide that they're properly managed and are given decent material to work with.
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With the first generation Auris, the three door was built in Turkey, and the five door built in the UK. The second generation Auris is built in the UK for the European market.
The Avensis is solely built in the UK.
Petrol and hybrid engines for the Auris and Avensis are built at Deeside, and are also exported to South Africa, Turkey, Brazil and Japan. The new 1.2 turbo petrol engine is also being built at Deeside.
Last edited by: Auristocrat on Wed 10 Jun 15 at 10:48
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>> Their preferred manufacturers were Toyota and Honda (mainly Toyota).
Mine too, although in recent years I've been very impressed with petrol Fords (no diesels in our household)
Lift the bonnet on a Japanese car and you can see some thought has gone into the layout, most items you need to get at are easy to do so. The Ford Focus we have is very good as well. I don't think it's any coincidence that you see so many Japanese cars and 4x4's in the poorer parts of the World. Aside from their reliability, they are easier to fix when they do go wrong.
I've found the French cars we've had to be pigs to work on. Any car that needs a stupid amount of effort to change a light bulb is immediately off my shopping list.
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>>I've found the French cars we've had to be pigs to work on.
Tell me about it !! .. I used to wonder if the frogs went out of their way to make their cars as difficult to work on as they could. I used to luv it when after tuning say a Citroen GS, my next car would be a nice 'n easy Ford/Vauxhall/Jap/Volvo etc. etc. Anything other than a french car!
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On the Yaris the brake fluid reservoir and battery seem to be well back under the scuttle. There are easily unclipped access panels, also easily accessible front bulbs, the rears are LEDs which would probably mean replacing the whole light unit.
Last edited by: Old Navy on Wed 10 Jun 15 at 10:28
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Came up behind a newish Yaris at the lights this morning and was surprised by the LED brake lights on a small and moderately-priced car.
I think the greatest benefit of LEDs here is in illumination time rather than length of life; those few milliseconds saved by not having to heat up a filament might be enough to prevent an accident. Pretty sure my S60 left us with its original tungsten brake lamps after 13 years and 140,000 miles, so they're not a high-wear item.
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My Yaris has nine LEDs in each rear light, they have a dual rear and stop light function. The centre brake light has a further six LEDs. I assume that any single LED failure would be a MOT fail.
Last edited by: Old Navy on Wed 10 Jun 15 at 13:09
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>> I assume that any single LED failure would be a MOT fail.
Nope. Would only fail if inoperative or less than 50% of the light sources illuminating.
www.motuk.co.uk/manual_110.htm
www.motuk.co.uk/manual_120.htm
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We ran Pug 309s (x2), 205s (x4), 106 (x2) and Saxos (x3) as driving school cars over the years and had no qualms at all about reliability. They ran to 100k each and rarely let us down. Unlike the Ford Fiestas and Escorts we used prior to that, most of which were a PITA.
Last edited by: Robin O'Reliant on Wed 10 Jun 15 at 15:22
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>> We ran Pug 309s (x2), 205s (x4), 106 (x2) and Saxos (x3) as driving school
>> cars over the years and had no qualms at all about reliability. They ran to
>> 100k each and rarely let us down. Unlike the Ford Fiestas and Escorts we used
>> prior to that, most of which were a PITA.
This was the last era of French stuff that I would entertain. Mechanically robust, seriously rot-resistant, easy to work on, and free of the unreliable and hideously complex electronics that plague most 2000 onwards models.
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And about as much crash protection as a wet tea bag.
Not that I didn't like them. I had a 309, and use of several 205s. Just glad I never pranged any.
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>> And about as much crash protection as a wet tea bag.
>>
>> >>
If you're a biker and/or a cyclist you learn not to worry too much about crash protection and concentrate on avoiding the things.
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Yes, yes they are. Especially Mk2 Meganes. Electrics made by cadburys. Not too bad mechanically, but the electrics just about everything packed up, eat coil packs for breakfast.
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>> Yes, yes they are. Especially Mk2 Meganes. Electrics made by cadburys. Not too bad mechanically,
>> but the electrics just about everything packed up, eat coil packs for breakfast.
Such a pity, it was a fantastic package, and I loved the looks.
There are very few left now,, most got scrapped.
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>> Such a pity, it was a fantastic package, and I loved the looks.
>>
They weren't bad I suppose, the MK1 Focus was much better though.
>> There are very few left now,, most got scrapped.
>>
No great surprise there.
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Citroen GS - brings back bad memories of trying to adjust the points, with the distributor buried right down at the bottom of the engine. Some clown also put the oil filter on the top of the engine, with the predictable mess when doing a service.
That funny shaped rear of the Megane MK2 may have been distinctive but it seriously affected the usefulness of the boot space.
We also ran a Focus, not as comfortable or refined but overall a far better car. The Focus worked, day in, day out, only needing to go near a garage for a service or MoT.
>> There are very few left now,, most got scrapped.
Rejoice at that news. There is a God.
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>> That funny shaped rear of the Megane MK2 may have been distinctive but it seriously
>> affected the usefulness of the boot space.
>>
By that time some bright spark moved it to the side of the block. Far too simple to have it under the engine. Oh and right next to the alternator, very clever. To the French.
>> >> There are very few left now,, most got scrapped.
>>
>> Rejoice at that news. There is a God.
>>
Amen brother.
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>> Citroen GS - brings back bad memories of trying to adjust the points, with the
>> distributor buried right down at the bottom of the engine. Some clown also put the
>> oil filter on the top of the engine, with the predictable mess when doing a
>> service.
Not alone in French cars of that period in being a pain to service and a liability to repair. The engine in the Peugeot 104 was almost on it's side under the bonnet with the oil filter on top. The filter's fitting was so close to the alternator mountings that some pattern parts would not tighten securely. ISTR that the points had to be set on the bench using some proprietary Peugeot tool.
Anything more than setting the valves, and one set of those was accessed from below, was an engine out job. Being a wet liner jobbie with a propensity to run far too warm (due dodgy earthing of the cooling fan) gasket type fails were distressingly common.
OTOH my BX's, 205, Xantia and Berlingos (excepting the recent starting issues) have all been OK.
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>>ISTR that the points had to be set on the bench using some proprietary Peugeot tool.
S'right, called a feeler gauge ;-)
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>> >> I assume that any single LED failure would be a MOT fail.
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>> Nope. Would only fail if inoperative or less than 50% of the light sources illuminating.
>>
>> www.motuk.co.uk/manual_110.htm
>> www.motuk.co.uk/manual_120.htm
I am surprised, I wonder what Toyota consider a failed unit for warranty replacement.
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>>> Many of you no doubt think I am a prejudiced
Indeed and that is an entirely legitimate position to hold but those with a more open mind have an expanded range of vehicles to choose from... often at keen prices due to a "down the pub" reputation French cars hold.
Mind you now and again a genuine tear your hair out case Renault or Citroen will pop up... but usually only with a non-believer owner.
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Looking at real reliability data shows the first Frenchie in 50th position, BMW not exactly top of the pops either!
www.anusedcar.com/index.php/tuv-report-year-age/2013-2-3/309
with cars like the Megane showing worsening ratings in recent years - newer models presumably
www.anusedcar.com/index.php/tuv-model/renault-megane
Last edited by: spamcan61 on Wed 10 Jun 15 at 21:33
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The current C4 is sorely testing my patience...
Turbo at 69k; oil pick up strainer blocked, so sump off again at 76k and new vacuum pump; repeat performance and sump off again at 80k (this time I removed the strainer - it isn't going to block again!); both front strut top bearings at about 75k; new cambelt at about the same time (noisy); unspecified electrical gremlin that put on the handbrake / ABS / ESP warning (solved it but not sure how - may have been a manky wire in the loom); now it needs an injector seal doing; and today the DPF warning was up (but seems to have cleared, and that may be due to not using it too much due to the chuffing injector).
Still, I liked this sort of grief so much that I bought another 1.6 HDi (307) - which has been much better (engine wise) - but has consumed both front wheel bearings, a CV joint and a lower ball joint in the 20k I've had it (80-100k)
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>>(this time I removed the strainer - it isn't going to block again!)
I would have probably done exactly the same.
Mildly curious where the stuff that was blocking the strainer is now going though.
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>> Mildly curious where the stuff that was blocking the strainer is now going though
'Lubricating' the big ends presumably
Last edited by: Lygonos on Wed 10 Jun 15 at 23:05
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Was the C4 a 1.6 HDi ?
I only ask as that engine has very specific instructions on performing the oil change, and is also sensitive to being performed on time
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Course it's a 1.6 HDi... :-)
This one had been regularly serviced (although not main dealer). The cause of the turbo failures appears to be injector blowby contaminating the oil. A fine mesh filter in the turbo oil feed sees the turbo off as soon as any crud starts circulating.
Re the sump strainer - it's only about 1" in diameter, and only had maybe 1mm of material on - perhaps half a teaspoon - this should be easily caught by the oil filter. He says hopefully! It's on 5-6k oil changes now anyway - but I didn't fancy taking the sump off every time!
Turbo issues on this engine were fixed in 2011 when they went back to an 8V unit, which doesn't seem to cause any where near as much trouble.
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My wife's last car was a 1.6td with stop/start and automated manual. We had it from new in 2012.
In 41,000 kms it broke down three times, twice recovered to the main dealers on the back of an ADAC truck.
We had intended to keep it but three breakdowns was enough of a warning for me.
Replaced by a British built Toyota which has failed to start twice needing to be plugged in to build up enough charge in the starter battery to allow access to the hybrid batteries to drive off. Since this was seen to by the dealership it's been fine. The other issue with the car was it arriving with the wrong glass (factory order), suspect sausage fingered dealer rather problem with factory.
In my experience the cars with lowest required maintenance have been Belgian built Swedes.
Last edited by: gmac on Thu 11 Jun 15 at 17:54
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Hmm. My most reliable car, 85k in 3 years without even a bulb to replace, was a Belgian built Ford.
Hmm.
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Our most reliable car has been a German built Ford (petrol). I will not consider a diesel.
That Ford/PSA 1.6 diesel engine is well known in the trade for being eager to blow turbos. If or when the problem was fixed I don't know.
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>> Our most reliable car has been a German built Ford (petrol). I will not consider
>> a diesel.
>>
Cologne or Saarlouis ?
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Saarlouis. Although current one comes from Valencia. I don't think it matters where the production line is, if the design is poor then it will always be poor.
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>>I will not consider a diesel. >>
My eight-year-old VW Jetta 170PS 1.4 TSi had its MOT a couple of weeks ago and passed without any drama. It's only done around 32,000 miles, but it was interesting to be told by the tester (who has done MOTs and service work for me for around 12 years) that my loyalty to petrol engines was well worthwhile as, if it had been a diesel engine, I might very well have had some problems by now based on common faults.
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That's strange, we are now on our thirteenth diesel car, most run to 100,000 miles. Yet to have an engine related problem and we have run VW x1, SEAT x2, Peugeot x3, Mitsubishi (Renault engine) x1, Ford x3, KIA x1, Hyundai x1, and the current Toyota. The Toyota may be replaced with a petrol powered car as our annual mileage has now dropped, I hope it will be as reliable as our past cars. The only diesel engine failure I have suffered was in a diesel powered submarine.
Last edited by: Old Navy on Fri 12 Jun 15 at 09:05
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32,000 miles in eight years suggests any engine problems are likely to be related to short journeys and lack of use than any inherent property of diesel or petrol engines. Besides, a tradesman who values your business is hardly likely to say, "You idiot, what did you buy one of these for?"
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It had only done a comparatively low mileage when I bought it four and a half years ago. One of the key reasons for buying it was the 170PS 1.4-litre supercharged and turbocharged engine...:-)
The mechanic in question was giving a perfectly honest opinion - he knows my motoring background well...:-)
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I've never had and engine issues with diesel. Longest experience was the 113K in the recently part exd Sharan. That was the 1.9 130 PD It was on long life servicing 18K oil changes until around 60K and all it had was servicing and 1 cambelt change
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I think it's true to say that actual diesel engines are as long-lasting as ever, but it's the assorted electronic gubbins that they add on to the engines, most in the name of emissions reduction, that give the trouble.
That's perhaps also true of French cars, where the thread started. The electrics go wrong, but there are a lot of ancient Renaults and Peugeots still going strong whose electrics have no doubt been repaired or replaced under previous ownership.
Many French people like to buy the basic models, which give less trouble: it's the Brits who go for the extras, leading to the poor reputation as described up-thread.
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You may be right, although in my experience it wasn't just electrical gadgets that went wrong but fundamental mechanicals as well.
I quite like French cars though, as a lease vehicle I might take a gamble but with my own money I would need to see clear evidence of reliability improvements and ease of repair. Until then Japanese and carefully selected Fords (no diesels) get my money.
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I've not particularly had french cars go wrong more than others, but when they do they're an a***.
Whether that was back in the days when I was fixing them myself (more hours) or more recently when I was paying someone else to do so (more dosh).
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I've just had a thought that now that Renault and Nissan have joined, maybe that will give the perfect car. Some traditional French design flair with Japanese reliability.
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Sadly, I believe that the sharing of parts has led to Nissan's once high reputation for reliability slipping a few notches.
(From what I remember in car reliability surveys)
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>> I've not particularly had french cars go wrong more than others, but when they do they're an a***.
Aren't all cars a***s when push comes to shove? All mine have been.
That said, I love 'French cars', comfortable, rapid and economical.
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Mine is a French car.Economical comfortable and plenty of space.
I've had German and Japanese cars.Somethings are good and others are bad.A bit like the human species none of them where perfect.
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The new Renault Kadjar is a reskinned Qashqai, they are going down the route of few platforms, many models and badges.
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>> The new Renault Kadjar
>>
How do you pronounce that ? It reads like cadger which is a scrounger where I come from.
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>> >> The new Renault Kadjar
>> >>
>> How do you pronounce that ? It reads like cadger which is a scrounger where
>> I come from.
>>
You pronounce it "crap".
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>> >> The new Renault Kadjar
Some exaplanation here: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renault_Kadjar
Sounds a bit too much like Todger as well....
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Sun 14 Jun 15 at 13:42
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Hmmm. Just watched England's new late-order partnership between Willey and Wood. On this occasion, the stand didn't last long.
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>> Willey and Wood. On this occasion, the stand didn't last long.
Tee hee, creative bit of thread drift WDB, chapeau.
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Its never the engines on most cars that go wrong, I've had engines ranging from 70k to 220k and not one mechanical failure, not even near.
Suspension and ride on the other hand a constant nightmare.
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I was reading an article the other day on the Toyota Aygo/108/C1 - as an intro it discussed the Mk1 version - early issues included water leaks, some creaking of interior plastics HOWEVER the real issues are to be found in the electrics - the Toyota /Peugeot/Citroen collaboration divided the work between the partners for their new factory & new model - Toyota got the engine & transmission - the FRENCH designed & sourced the electrical side of things..................Problems, even after a couple of years.
The new Aygo/108/C1 have been kitted with non-French electrics. Whilst not "the best" (according to the author -he liked the VW) UP it is a competitive car in that range with the electrical gremlins a thing of the past.
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Just remember the french designed the SCART connector. That abortion makes all the Citroen/Peugeot connectors look like aircraft grade candidates.
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Um, they also designed the Exocet anti-ship missile and the Super Étendard attack aircraft.
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The SCART connector was invented nearly 50 years ago and was quite a leap forward in its day. Nobody in the UK invented a better product at the time did they? The French have always been early adopters of electronics
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The French are good engineers, especially in theory, if it isn't racist to say that.
A French friend of mine is an engineer (and former naval officer). It was he who told me the above.
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From both the Honest John review and from the Aygo forum within Toyota Owners Club, electrics aren't an issue for the first generation Aygo.
Water leaks seem to be a common fault, which can often be easily cured once it is identified from where the leak is coming.
The petrol engine and manual transmission are shared with the Yaris and IQ. The 'auto' option on the Aygo, the Multi Mode Transmission ( a manual transmission with an automated clutch), can be problematical and expensive to repair. The diesel engine was a PSA unit.
The new Aygo/C1/108 retain a reworked version of the 1.0 litre Toyota engine, and the 1.2 versions of the C1/108 have a PSA unit.
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Jay Leno likes French cars:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=kzW_ERSgFRY
I think one of the silliest motoring hookups (like Renault and Nissan today) was Alfa Romeo and Datsun (the old Nissan).
They made a version of the Datsun Cherry called the Alfa Romeo Arna.
Now with Alfa's reputation for poor body work but ace engines one could be forgiven for thinking that Alfa would make the engines and Datsun would make the bodies.....oh no...that would be too simple.
Alfa made the bodies and Datsun made the engines.
Poor car never stood a chance!
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>> Alfa made the bodies and Datsun made the engines.
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>> Poor car never stood a chance!
But it still ended up with the Alfa's inboard brake discs.
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>> Alfa made the bodies and Datsun made the engines.
Actually that's the wrong way round. I had an Arna.
It wasn't a great car, rust-prone at both ends. That was the Datsun bit.
But the engine was a cooking 1350cc Alfa-Romeo flat four, a magnificent unit.
Under the right conditions it was also the only oversteering fwd car I've ever driven. Sorry, boring, posted 100 times.
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There was a Datsun badged version too, the Cherry Europe.
The local dealer had never seen anything like them. All they had to do with the proper Datsuns was fit the carpets and fill up the oil, there was never anything to do on the PDI. The Cherry Europes needed lots of work - I remember they had one with bits of the window lifter missing, so the window fell down in the door when it was opened, and another with the seat not fastened to the runners.
I may have misremembered but I think the last thousand or two were auctioned by BCA to get rid of them rather than sell them as new cars through the network.
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Wife's friend had a major fright on Sunday morning in her Clio - doing '80' (75-ish presumably) in the outside lane of the M42, came up to a gantry showing a 40mph speed limit. Hit the brakes - nothing.
To avoid rapidly approaching vehicles in front she steered into the central reservation, which had a just-wide-enough strip of gravel, slowing her down. Then because the cars behind had seen what was happening and also slowed down, she was able to head through the gap to the hard shoulder and eventually stop.
Very lucky -early so relatively little traffic, she drives ambulances which probably helped reduce the panic, and the gravel in the central reservation at that spot was a big help. It did leave her very shaken up though.
Garage said the brake servo had gone, which I guess means in theory the brakes would have worked if she'd known what the problem was and pressed hard enough?
Anyway, the good news is the Clio isn't worth repairing so she's scrapping it and taking our nice reliable Colt off our hands. (We still don't need 2 cars so we were planning on just running my company A3 - just hadn't got round to selling it yet.)
Are brake servo failures common?
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We had a recall for Mrs ONs SEAT Arosa some years ago, it was for the vacuum pipe to the servo rubbing on something and at risk of leaking. The test for a servo is to pump the brakes with the engine off until the pedal goes hard as the vacuum is depleted and then start the engine with the pedal pressed. If all is OK the pedal should go down as the servo becomes effective as the vaccum builds up.
Last edited by: Old Navy on Wed 22 Jul 15 at 22:44
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Don't know, but you don't tell us anything about the car's age or state of maintenance. I'd imagine servos are made by component suppliers like Valeo, whose bits could equally probably end up in a Toyota or a Mercedes as in a Renault - although I also realize (a) Valeo is French too, and (b) not all its customers necessarily specify components to the same standard.
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>> Don't know, but you don't tell us anything about the car's age or state of
>> maintenance.
Old, and reasonable I think. In fact it had been for a service not that long ago (couple of months?) apparently.
Sorry, wasn't really having a go at French cars - posted it here as I couldn't be bothered starting a new thread and there is a tenuous link. But with hindsight a new thread would have been better.
Last edited by: Focusless on Wed 22 Jul 15 at 22:51
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Not a case of Carry on Cleo then...? :-)
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>> Not a case of Carry on Cleo then...? :-)
>>
Well, after the brake failure it was a case of Carry on Regardless.
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French cars are still carp. - Armel Coussine
