Motoring Discussion > Citroen Berlingo Multispace - 2005 1.9 Head Problems Fix or Sell? Miscellaneous
Thread Author: Bromptonaut Replies: 91
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 Sat 16 May 15 09:41 
 Citroen Berlingo Multispace - 2005 1.9 Head Problems Fix or Sell? - Bromptonaut
My 2005 Berlingo, written of previously in this forum, has finally developed a major fault. It's a 1.9 IDI engine type WJY (DW8B)

Rough starting (see www.car4play.com/forum/post/index.htm?f=1&t=17062 ) has returned. It's also begun to sound off definitely beat when cold although seems OK once it's run for 20-30 secs. Not noticeably down on power/up on fuel use nor losing oil or coolant either.

Investigation though reveals low compression in nos. 1 and 2 cylinders. Interim diagnosis is that head gasket has 'gone' creating a leak between those two cylinders that probably closes up at least in part when head warms up.

According to my garage's workshop time software CHG replacement on this car is a major job due lack of space in engine bay. FWIW though Haynes says that while that's true of HDi version the 1.9's head CAN be removed with engine in situ. They're same block with different heads and fuel system.

Garage advice is that cost of lifting engine, stripping etc together with risk that head itself will require testing and may be damaged, make an exchange engine considerably cheaper than a full repair. Cost from £900 up either way. WBAC values vehicle at £500.

So questions are:

(1) Any experience of head removal on this engine?
(2) If I stick with it do I go for repair or exchange motor?
(3) Take £500 and run.....

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 Sat 16 May 15 09:45 
 Citroen Berlingo Multispace - 2005 1.9 Head Problems Fix or Sell? - Duncan
(3)
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 Sat 16 May 15 09:49 
 Citroen Berlingo Multispace - 2005 1.9 Head Problems Fix or Sell? - RichardW
Before they start ripping the head off, they have checked the valve clearances with the engine stone cold?

If you could DIY then I would probably do the head gasket (although I have done a head gasket on a BX TD and it's not particularly an experience I would want to repeat!), but if you have to pay labour then spares / repair ad and move on to something else seems the way to go....
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 Sat 16 May 15 11:39 
 Citroen Berlingo Multispace - 2005 1.9 Head Problems Fix or Sell? - Bromptonaut
>> Before they start ripping the head off, they have checked the valve clearances with the
>> engine stone cold?

No. I've mentioned them becuase it's come up here before and my Brother in Law had a similar issue with his older XUD version. Garage dismiss it as a possibility.

Would incorrect clearance (valve seat recession?) be consistent with the low compressions?
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 Sat 16 May 15 12:02 
 Citroen Berlingo Multispace - 2005 1.9 Head Problems Fix or Sell? - Zero

>> Would incorrect clearance (valve seat recession?) be consistent with the low compressions?

Does cause low compression, but the fact you have two adjacent cylinder with problems is more consistent with head gasket.

Exchange engine? Who knows how good that is.

TTM&WA

(take the money and walk away) - it owes you nothing
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 Sat 16 May 15 14:26 
 Citroen Berlingo Multispace - 2005 1.9 Head Problems Fix or Sell? - RichardW
It's the same engine more or less underneath, so it can cause the problem - the exhaust valves close up, and are held open when cold. It's a relatively easy check to drop the rocker cover off and check them, but correcting them is rather more involved, as the cam shaft has to come out to have new shims fitted. Head gasket failure on the XUDT was more or less guaranteed, but it's rarer on the DW8 engine - and they usually let go to the water jacket rather than across cylinders, but it's not impossible it's gone that way....
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 Sat 16 May 15 09:53 
 Citroen Berlingo Multispace - 2005 1.9 Head Problems Fix or Sell? - Skip
I think that I would move it on as if the rough running from start up from a year or more ago was being caused by HGF there will almost certainly be damage to the head and once you have got to the stage where this may (or may not) be the case of the engine will have been stripped and the car undriveable. Then you do not have the option to trade it in and it is either scrap or you pay a lot more then the car is worth to have it put right.
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 Sat 16 May 15 11:17 
 Citroen Berlingo Multispace - 2005 1.9 Head Problems Fix or Sell? - R.P.
3.
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 Sat 16 May 15 11:24 
 Citroen Berlingo Multispace - 2005 1.9 Head Problems Fix or Sell? - Runfer D'Hills
3...soon.
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 Sat 16 May 15 11:35 
 Citroen Berlingo Multispace - 2005 1.9 Head Problems Fix or Sell? - PeterS
If I recall correctly you've already got a replacement for this, in the form of a new Berlingo, but I can't remember if you kept the old one just because it was worth more to you than you'd have got by selling it (if that makes sense?), or because you needed 2 cars? If the former then I'd definitely go with option 3

If you do need the second vehicle I guess it depends what you'd actually replace it with. If it would be with something costing a few grand I have to say I'd be tempted to stick with the know quantity and fix what I'd already got. If however you're in a position to, and would, replace with a new or much newer vehicle then again I'd be taking option 3

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 Sat 16 May 15 12:05 
 Citroen Berlingo Multispace - 2005 1.9 Head Problems Fix or Sell? - Runfer D'Hills
If the numbers crunch for you Bromp, you'd maybe do worse than one of those Dacia Dusters in 4wd form now that they say they've sorted the rust issues. Good shed tugging potential one might have thought without huge costs.
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 Sat 16 May 15 12:15 
 Citroen Berlingo Multispace - 2005 1.9 Head Problems Fix or Sell? - WillDeBeest
3. But is that £500 for a Berlingo with a sound engine? (Coincidentally that's barely less than WBAC offered for my 2002 S60.)
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 Sat 16 May 15 13:35 
 Citroen Berlingo Multispace - 2005 1.9 Head Problems Fix or Sell? - No FM2R
I think there's a couple of things to take into account.

1) *If* you were going to do such a thing, what could you buy the same model/ year etc. for using Autotrader?

2) Do you want the car or would you prefer different / newer / better in any case?

3) Is there anything else about the car or your plans / desires which may cause you to replace it soon anyway, other than this current issue?

I always think that the first step is to understand what you would like to do and then work out how and/or if.
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 Sat 16 May 15 17:59 
 Citroen Berlingo Multispace - 2005 1.9 Head Problems Fix or Sell? - Boxsterboy
3 is the logical option, given your previous level-headed run-it-into-the-ground mentality with your cars.

Plus it means we can then all offer opinions on what you should replace it with.

May I be the first to say 'Mondeo estate' whatever your actual requirements are?
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 Sat 16 May 15 21:32 
 Citroen Berlingo Multispace - 2005 1.9 Head Problems Fix or Sell? - Duncan
Why isn't this in Technical?
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 Sat 16 May 15 21:42 
 Citroen Berlingo Multispace - 2005 1.9 Head Problems Fix or Sell? - Zero
so we can annoy you.
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 Sat 16 May 15 21:53 
 Citroen Berlingo Multispace - 2005 1.9 Head Problems Fix or Sell? - WillDeBeest
Because it's not essentially a technical problem. The question is, 'Supposing I have this technical problem, what should my strategy be?'
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 Sat 16 May 15 22:03 
 Citroen Berlingo Multispace - 2005 1.9 Head Problems Fix or Sell? - Duncan
>> Because it's not essentially a technical problem. The question is, 'Supposing I have this technical problem, what should my strategy be?'

Oh! That's a novel approach.

We could do the same thing in the Motoring Matters section.
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 Sat 16 May 15 22:10 
 Citroen Berlingo Multispace - 2005 1.9 Head Problems Fix or Sell? - No FM2R
Don't quite get the issue;

How do I fix my head gasket? - Technical
Should I sell my car with its head gasket problems? - Motoring Discussion
Are threads in what I consider the wrong section annoying? - Non-motoring
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 Sat 16 May 15 22:00 
 Citroen Berlingo Multispace - 2005 1.9 Head Problems Fix or Sell? - Duncan
>> so we can annoy you>>

Effective.
Last edited by: Duncan on Sat 16 May 15 at 22:04
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 Sun 17 May 15 05:45 
 Citroen Berlingo Multispace - 2005 1.9 Head Problems Fix or Sell? - Duncan
Please try not to worry too much please, chaps.

I was being somewhat TIC when I made my comment at 21.32.

We get little enough real discussion in the threads. In a way it's nice to have Brompy's head problems to talk about.

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 Sun 17 May 15 08:30 
 Citroen Berlingo Multispace - 2005 1.9 Head Problems Fix or Sell? - swiss tony
NOT 3..

WBAC are rip off merchants.

What you need to do is stick it on autotrader/ebay/gumtree as spares or repairs.

By the time WBAC look at it, it will be down to £400.
'Engine issue? we can give you £200 tops....'
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 Sun 17 May 15 08:59 
 Citroen Berlingo Multispace - 2005 1.9 Head Problems Fix or Sell? - Bromptonaut
Been away overnight with carp WiFi. Thanks for all contributions so far. Will reply fully when home tonight.
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 Sun 17 May 15 09:36 
 Citroen Berlingo Multispace - 2005 1.9 Head Problems Fix or Sell? - bathtub tom
I'll second the Gumtree suggestion.
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 Sun 17 May 15 11:11 
 Citroen Berlingo Multispace - 2005 1.9 Head Problems Fix or Sell? - Boxsterboy
Yes when i said 3 i meant sell it but not to WBAC. Because you would not actually get £500 from them, whereas you should get more than that from a private sale 'sold as seen'
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 Sun 17 May 15 21:43 
 Citroen Berlingo Multispace - 2005 1.9 Head Problems Fix or Sell? - Bromptonaut
Thanks all.

Answering the 'issue focussing' questions asked by Mark and Peter S it's our second car. the other is a 63 reg 1.6 Hdi 115 Berlingo which is notionally Mrs B's and tows the caravan. Although I'm early retired I do voluntary work for Citizen's Advice which I'd like to further on to paid employment. That and need to fulfil family commitments while Mrs B does peripatetic supply teaching means we need two cars.

While there's another thread to be had on whether I could manage with something smaller current thinking is that a pair that are broadly interchangeable fit the bill. Both our adult kids are insured to drive it and while Miss B is now settled with a partner the lad uses it while at home in uni vacs. We've had from new and know full history. It's been serviced spot on with proper oils etc and has new clutch and exhaust. Not keen on swapping for an engine that might have been misfuelled/thrashed/poorly serviced etc.

If it were written off my start point would be like/like replacement via Autotrader etc. Not that many with same engine as mine but I've no reason to rule out an HDi so say £1500-£2k.

The car suits me down to the ground. We've had it from new, we all like it and can all happily drive it. It it were not faulty I'd be looking to push it to 15yrs/200k miles.

We're on holiday from Friday and have too much on in next four days to faff about looking at cars. I'm going to contact garage tomorrow and ask them to check the valve clearances. If they're out and can be sorted then all's dandy(?). O/wise it can come home and sit on drive. The Lad won't have use when he's home next week but tough scheisse - he'll have to use bus/bike/taxi.

I'm holidaying on a Caravan Club site so will have wi-fi and can look at alternative cars and refine repair options for current one with garage.

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 Sun 17 May 15 21:51 
 Citroen Berlingo Multispace - 2005 1.9 Head Problems Fix or Sell? - Zero
somewhere on here, there was a thread about throwing some miracle snake oil in the coolant that fixed HGF failures.

Wouldn't touch it myself, but you may wish to give it a crack as you have nothing to lose
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 Sun 17 May 15 21:58 
 Citroen Berlingo Multispace - 2005 1.9 Head Problems Fix or Sell? - WillDeBeest
Radweld, was it? Probably a Rats thing but I can't really remember.
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 Sun 17 May 15 22:10 
 Citroen Berlingo Multispace - 2005 1.9 Head Problems Fix or Sell? - Zero
It was K seal. On send thoughts tho, he has a leak between cylinders, not into the coolant jacket so it would be a waste of time. Ignore me.
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 Sun 17 May 15 23:34 
 Citroen Berlingo Multispace - 2005 1.9 Head Problems Fix or Sell? - No FM2R
So, if a repairs is going to be circa £1,000 and the answer to this earlier question is no;

"3) Is there anything else about the car or your plans / desires which may cause you to replace it soon anyway, other than this current issue?"

I would try a "simplistic" repair; yank the head, if there's nothing obviously serious, replace the HG and put it back together and hope for the best.

If that works, great but if it fails it shouldn't have cost very much because with the engine in it is not a long job.

If I discover something bad, or my quick repair didn't work, I would then put in a replacement engine.

Accepting that you don't know the history of that engine, its still not likely to be a disaster since they normally come with some level of warranty.

If you don't like, or don't feel comfortable with, the end result you have got something you could sell to cover most of the repair bill and be no worse off.

I do think it hangs on my question above though. And of course the valve clearance check.
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 Mon 18 May 15 00:33 
 Citroen Berlingo Multispace - 2005 1.9 Head Problems Fix or Sell? - Lygonos
I'd chuck in some BARS Leaks or similar.

Pro: might sort the problem.

Con: might do nothing - but you're at the brink of Gumtreeing it anyway.
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 Mon 18 May 15 01:00 
 Citroen Berlingo Multispace - 2005 1.9 Head Problems Fix or Sell? - Armel Coussine
In my experience that coolant gunge won't stop a big hole in a radiator tube and will block small water passages in the engine causing patchy overheating.

But used sparingly it will stop a small weep in one of these crappy plastic radiators cars often have these days. It worked on the Chrysler, and so far so good a couple of years on.
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 Mon 18 May 15 01:43 
 Citroen Berlingo Multispace - 2005 1.9 Head Problems Fix or Sell? - Lygonos
Have seen a few CHG successes with it - considering the amount of dregs I've seen come out of radiators I doubt a small blob of flax seed flour will wreck a block.

BARS Leaks is used by a few manufacturers to 'fix' shonky HGs - I believe the US Subaru 2.5 non-turbo engine had a dodgy HG 10 years or so ago - the fix was to add 'CHG conditioner' aka Bars.


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 Mon 18 May 15 09:01 
 Citroen Berlingo Multispace - 2005 1.9 Head Problems Fix or Sell? - bathtub tom
From Bromp's op: Investigation though reveals low compression in nos. 1 and 2 cylinders. Interim diagnosis is that head gasket has 'gone' creating a leak between those two cylinders that probably closes up at least in part when head warms up.

As there's no suggestion of coolant loss, I fail to see how adding anything to the cooling system will help.
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 Mon 18 May 15 11:57 
 Citroen Berlingo Multispace - 2005 1.9 Head Problems Fix or Sell? - nice but dim
Bromp,

What is the rest of the car like? Gearbox, clutch (DMF?), suspension, body work. I've not read the whole of the other thread to fully establish the problem.

Is it just the starting that is the issue? Does it run ok when started.

As you've had new and know the history, i would look to either put up as it, repair (with in reason) or a decent replacement engine. Second car too so you can afford to have it off the road longer than most would.

I've always believed £2-3k is others peoples junk territory and not best if you want to avoid repeated low- medium cost maintenance tasks.

I've had my 07 plate Corolla (bought for £3,600) for 6 months now - now 82k and apart from a oil change and a set of rear brake pads (front due this year) but now is sounding tired up front on braking and low speed manoeuvring, maybe bushes or a link of some sort. It can wait until the MOT next April as tyres next £200+ then VED £180. Tsch motoring!
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 Mon 18 May 15 12:24 
 Citroen Berlingo Multispace - 2005 1.9 Head Problems Fix or Sell? - Bromptonaut
NbD,

Overall it's in pretty good condition. Got the inevitable trolley/door dings accumulated over 10yrs/150k of course and a bit of rust bubbling on bonnet. I had the worst scrapes tidied up earlier in the year while it had a roofline ding repaired at the borough council's expense - car park barrier dropped on it.

The gearbox is fine and the clutch has only recently been replaced. Exhaust and alternator are recent too. No DMF. Four good tyres (BF Goodrich).

Spoken to garage proprietor this morning and they're going to check the valve clearances. If he reports them as out then I'll get them sorted. If not then it's coming home and I'll mull over options while on holiday next week.

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 Mon 18 May 15 14:49 
 Citroen Berlingo Multispace - 2005 1.9 Head Problems Fix or Sell? - Westpig
>> I've always believed £2-3k is others peoples junk territory and not best if you want
>> to avoid repeated low- medium cost maintenance tasks.

Couldn't agree more.

I've been trading cars until recently (just packed it in... too much hassle and work for not enough return).

For the price bracket you are in for the second car, if it were me I'd avoid a diesel, as they have a helluva lot more to go wrong and even petrols can have some interesting bills.

As an example, for our personal circs, having sold my business 4x4, I needed a cheap second car in your price bracket... I was still in the trade, with access to my brother's garage...so ideally placed to get something decent. I ended up digging out my old S Type from the shed, spending £400 on this and that, getting an MOT and using that, because I know what's what with it. The excessive local only fuel costs are covered by me not spending £2-3K on something else potentially troublesome.

Over a period of 3 years selling cars, I had to get three replacement engines for cheaper second hand cars (the cars a lot of people want, so in theory is worth considering trading in). Two of them had significant problems.

If you go down the 'repair it' route, I'd recommend an engine repair rather than a replacement. Yes it will cost you more, definitely... but you then know the car is 'right'.

A lot of garages will recommend the replacement rather than repair route, because it is easier for them/ cheaper for you... and they don't like one of the ramps being used up for days on end when they could be earning money on other jobs.. but at the end of the day, it's the customer's choice.
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 Mon 18 May 15 15:19 
 Citroen Berlingo Multispace - 2005 1.9 Head Problems Fix or Sell? - Bromptonaut
Thanks for that post WP. As above I'm waiting a call back to say they've checked the valves and an outcome.

I'm kind of firming up on idea that it's better to do a 'proper job'. It might mean I've spent pushing £2k in current calendar yr on it but if I then get it back on its previous regime of service every 10k + consumables and run it for say 3 more years I'll be OK breaking even again.

Probably a better outcome than trying to pick up an equivalent for sums you and others say are potential trouble territory. Otherwise it's another £1-2k on top for something like a 4/5yo Nemo Multispace, its Peugeot brother or Fiat cousin.
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 Mon 18 May 15 15:33 
 Citroen Berlingo Multispace - 2005 1.9 Head Problems Fix or Sell? - Manatee
If you want to run an older car without doing most of the work yourself, you probably need to budget £1,000 a year (average) plus servicing for repairs and replacements. Or so I keep telling myself...

Depreciation on a new one is obviously going to be significantly more than that, and running newish second hand ones might not be a lot cheaper if you buy them retail.
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 Mon 18 May 15 20:19 
 Citroen Berlingo Multispace - 2005 1.9 Head Problems Fix or Sell? - spamcan61
>> If you want to run an older car without doing most of the work yourself,
>> you probably need to budget £1,000 a year (average) plus servicing for repairs and replacements.
>> Or so I keep telling myself...
>>
>> Depreciation on a new one is obviously going to be significantly more than that, and
>> running newish second hand ones might not be a lot cheaper if you buy them
>> retail.
>>
In 12 years of bangernomics, driving leggy Vauxhalls (2 Omegas, 2 Vectras and my current Astra) I don't think I've ever had a burn a grand in a year - and I don't DIY much these days, other than oil changes. That's doing 20-30K per year.
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 Mon 18 May 15 20:22 
 Citroen Berlingo Multispace - 2005 1.9 Head Problems Fix or Sell? - Manatee
>> In 12 years of bangernomics, driving leggy Vauxhalls (2 Omegas, 2 Vectras and my current
>> Astra) I don't think I've ever had a burn a grand in a year -
>> and I don't DIY much these days, other than oil changes. That's doing 20-30K per
>> year.

So you would have been ahead, and very happy then :)
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 Mon 18 May 15 16:03 
 Citroen Berlingo Multispace - 2005 1.9 Head Problems Fix or Sell? - Westpig
>> Otherwise it's another £1-2k on top for something like
>> a 4/5yo Nemo Multispace, its Peugeot brother or Fiat cousin.
>>
If your budget allows it i'd go newer if you could, even if you had to have a bit on a loan or something, far less chance of problems.

Bangernomnics are fine if you can fettle them yourself. I can't.
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 Mon 18 May 15 20:31 
 Citroen Berlingo Multispace - 2005 1.9 Head Problems Fix or Sell? - sooty123
I've always believed £2-3k is others peoples junk territory and not best if you want
>> to avoid repeated low- medium cost maintenance tasks.
>>

I nearly always buy in that price bracket. I think at that price you still get something fairly new and easy to get spares. Can't say I've had too many issues and certainly nothing expensive. But luck plays a part I suppose.
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 Wed 20 May 15 09:47 
 Citroen Berlingo Multispace - 2005 1.9 Head - Update - Bromptonaut
Report from garage: It has no valve clearances ie they're tightly closed up

Tw options

(a) re-shim - say £300
(b) head off and overhaul - re seat valves, renew stem oil seals etc.

Waiting for a price on (b) but will be £1k plus.

Any opinions?
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 Wed 20 May 15 10:15 
 Citroen Berlingo Multispace - 2005 1.9 Head - Update - Manatee
If you think you'll keep it a year or two, just do the clearances. If it's an heirloom then consider a head rebuild.

Does it really cost £300 to do the tappets?
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 Wed 20 May 15 10:28 
 Citroen Berlingo Multispace - 2005 1.9 Head - Update - MJM
>>Does it really cost £300 to do the tappets?<<

If the cam lobe is bearing directly on the follower and the shim is under the follower and on top of the valve stem then, in Bromp’s case the cost doesn’t look out of order. All the clearances will have to be measured and in the case of the no-clearance valves a shim fitted to give “some” clearance to enable the correct shim to be decided. To change the shims the camshaft has to be removed and new shims of the correct size bought, fitted and checked. With the no-clearance valves this is camshaft out twice. The cam belt will be disturbed and the decision made on whether to re-fit the old or fit a new one.
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 Wed 20 May 15 10:56 
 Citroen Berlingo Multispace - 2005 1.9 Head - Update - Manatee
>> >>Does it really cost £300 to do the tappets?<<
>>
>> If the cam lobe is bearing directly on the follower and the shim is under
>> the follower and on top of the valve stem then, in Bromp’s case the cost
>> doesn’t look out of order. All the clearances will have to be measured and in
>> the case of the no-clearance valves a shim fitted to give “some” clearance to enable
>> the correct shim to be decided. To change the shims the camshaft has to be
>> removed and new shims of the correct size bought, fitted and checked. With the no-clearance
>> valves this is camshaft out twice. The cam belt will be disturbed and the decision
>> made on whether to re-fit the old or fit a new one.

Yes, that will be it. No way of knowing what shim is going to be needed on the tight valves.

Incidental story - a friend nearby has a reasonably valuable classic with a 31/2 litre XK engine, 6 cylinder DOHC, shimmed head. The car was gone over last year, with the exception of the head which had been acquired relatively recently as a "rebuilt" good one and had done only a few thousand miles. The short engine was fully rebuilt at considerable expense. The clearances were checked and some shims changed, other than that the head wasn't touched. Since then, and with some fairly energetic use, the clearances have gone all over the place - some have as in Bromp's case lost all clearance and the compression is affected. Turns out that some bodger has actually adjusted the clearances at some point by shortening some of the valve stems, possibly in situ with a file! Now there's an idea...
Last edited by: Manatee on Wed 20 May 15 at 10:57
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 Wed 20 May 15 15:42 
 Citroen Berlingo Multispace - 2005 1.9 Head - Update - bathtub tom
>>some bodger has actually adjusted the clearances at some point by shortening some of the valve stems

Was the only way of adjusting valve clearances on some Ford side valve engines. Although it was more usual to remove the valve and get the necessary metal accurately ground off.
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 Wed 20 May 15 10:33 
 Citroen Berlingo Multispace - 2005 1.9 Head - Update - Manatee
>> If you think you'll keep it a year or two, just do the clearances. If
>> it's an heirloom then consider a head rebuild.
>>
>> Does it really cost £300 to do the tappets?

Now using PC, not phone...with old cars, spend what you need to spend to keep it running well and safe, and no more. Unless you plan to keep it forever, as with a classic, when doing the job perfectly becomes an investment.

If you are going to trade it in, don't do anything. If your conscience bothers you, tell them truthfully that it needs the tappets doing.

£300 is not a ridiculous amount to spend on fettling to keep a car going if you are keeping it another year. But it might not be the only money you have to spend, that's the nature of the beast.
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 Wed 20 May 15 10:16 
 Citroen Berlingo Multispace - 2005 1.9 Head - Update - nice but dim
I would still repair IMO.

This is what you could get for a possible sell as is, probably more as it is in better condtion and a "runner"

tinyurl.com/qjlw68u

but what can you get for say £1500, without adding more cash?

tinyurl.com/o4j6ozf

For £1500, you could get the same model for 2 or maybe 1 year older with sinilar miles.

You know your car, its history and once fixed can balance the books by running hopefully for a further 3 years. Thats assuming you have the ready cash.

I cant offer any advice on the mechanical fault.
Last edited by: nice but dim on Wed 20 May 15 at 10:20
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 Wed 20 May 15 12:22 
 Citroen Berlingo Multispace - 2005 1.9 Head - Update - Bromptonaut
>> but what can you get for say £1500, without adding more cash?
>>
>> tinyurl.com/o4j6ozf
>>

Top of that list is a Xsara Picasso. That introduces a complication only relevant to replacement; Mrs B needs to be able to drive it. She has very short legs which means she cannot easily get a comfortable pedal/steering wheel set up. One of the garage's courtesy cars was a Picasso and she really struggled with it.
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 Wed 20 May 15 13:40 
 Citroen Berlingo Multispace - 2005 1.9 Head - Update - nice but dim
Sorry it was a link to a 53 plate, 135,000 mile example of what you have for £1295.

Don't know what went wrong with the link :)
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 Wed 20 May 15 10:17 
 Citroen Berlingo Multispace - 2005 1.9 Head - Update - WillDeBeest
Don't really know what re-shimming involves but aren't we back at the beginning? Old, low-value car requires expensive engine job. If the re-shim would genuinely turn back the clock and buy you, say, two more years, then why not? But a four-digit bill to put you back in what is still an old, low-value car seems poor value.
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 Wed 20 May 15 20:06 
 Citroen Berlingo Multispace - 2005 1.9 Head - Update - Bromptonaut
>> Old, low-value car requires expensive engine job.

In this case it's engine but it could be brakes/supension or bodywork.

Key points for me are (a) I need a second car in this size/load group for the foreseeable future and thus, (b) what's most price efficient way of meeting that need from where I am now.

This Berlingo is not just any old car, it's one I've owned from new with every fail and foible logged. OTOH it's easy for me to anthropomorphise 'Enrico'. From there, am I really any better off than if I chop it and spend £3k on something second-hand?

From where I sit it's simply a question of whether I throw £ at (a) repairs or (b) depreciation.

I'll go for (a) on basis I'm betting on a known quantity.
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 Wed 20 May 15 20:37 
 Citroen Berlingo Multispace - 2005 1.9 Head - Update - WillDeBeest
It's where I am too, Bromp. Well, almost; the S60 has no immediate crisis but it could easily happen and I haven't the time any more to mess about with fettling it. Like yours, I know exactly where it's been, but its age (three years older than yours) is really showing now, although the engine still makes me smile, as I wrote in another thread at the weekend.

I've taken the view that it's time to start afresh, not with a new car but a good approved used one, as we did with the LEC. That's as close to an entirely known quantity as we can afford and sets us up for the next few years. We don't need first and second cars so much as two first cars for different missions, and the S60 isn't really first-car material any more.

Earlier in its life, though, we've been closer to your situation and opted to keep it going. £1600 on DMF and handbrake shoes at eight years has been money well spent; £400 last autumn on two injectors to cure (successfully) a starting problem, arguably less so. I'm just sceptical that what sounds like a horribly complex and error-prone operation on the valves can be had for £300. Fingers crossed for you.
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 Wed 20 May 15 10:22 
 Citroen Berlingo Multispace - 2005 1.9 Head - Update - Duncan
>> Report from garage: It has no valve clearances ie they're tightly closed up
>>
>> Tw options
>>
>> (a) re-shim - say £300
>> (b) head off and overhaul - re seat valves, renew stem oil seals etc.
>>
>> Waiting for a price on (b) but will be £1k plus.
>>
>> Any opinions?
>>

(3)
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 Wed 20 May 15 10:34 
 Citroen Berlingo Multispace - 2005 1.9 Head - Update - No FM2R
I would definitely go with a).

However, is it going to be re-shimmed by a garage who wanted to replace your head gasket? Perhaps not the most expert people.
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 Wed 20 May 15 10:47 
 Citroen Berlingo Multispace - 2005 1.9 Head - Update - Zero
Not sure how no valve clearances (ie closed up valves) can lead to low compression?

I suspect there is more than one thing going on here

Its pretty sure however, based on his previous comments, Brompy is going to spend serious money on fixing it.
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 Wed 20 May 15 10:55 
 Citroen Berlingo Multispace - 2005 1.9 Head - Update - No FM2R
>>Not sure how no valve clearances (ie closed up valves) can lead to low compression?

I get that bit, presumably the valve is either not completely closing or closing for only a short period of time.

But wouldn't it be worse when hot?
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 Wed 20 May 15 12:16 
 Citroen Berlingo Multispace - 2005 1.9 Head - Update - Bromptonaut
>> But wouldn't it be worse when hot?

I thought that at first but on reflection the cause effect sequence is slightly counter intuitive.

Problem is that valve is receding into head, albeit by fractions of a mm. Result is that when closed it's sitting high in relation to cam follower and cannot close fully. Situation is at worst when head and valves are cold and fully contracted. As soon as there is heat in head/valve and a modicum of expansion takes place normal service is resumed.

If I'm following that correctly then there's reason why it mimics glo-plug trouble where severity of symptoms varies with air temperature, second and subsequent starts OK and no loss of performance fuel use etc.
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 Wed 20 May 15 12:38 
 Citroen Berlingo Multispace - 2005 1.9 Head - Update - RichardW
Description spot on Bromp - as I said, well known on this engine family at 150k or so.... 6 or so hours labour probably about right - although if the cambelt is in good condition, no need to remove the bottom end. I don't know if the follower will sit right down with no shim, and therefore whether you can just remove the shim, measure the gap, and then calculate thickness of new shim, or whether you just have to put something in to get a gap, then take it from there, which means cam in and out a few times. No need to put the belt back in between times though, just rock the crank back 1/4 of a turn then you can play with the cam no problem, then on final assembly set the cam then turn the crank forwards to timing position and refit the belt.

I shan't mention that this was amongst my first responses to your original thread.... :-))
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 Wed 20 May 15 15:21 
 Citroen Berlingo Multispace - 2005 1.9 Head - Update - Bromptonaut
@ Richard W,

Thanks - virtual pint owed. I think you even suggested the problem last year in original tech thread.

Rationale for head overhaul as suggested by garage is that valves may be burned. Do you think that's seriously likely.

ATM I'm minded to just get the valve clearances sorted. I take very slow progress of problem and fact that car runs normally as soon as it's warm as an indication that the valves are probably only issue.
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 Wed 20 May 15 15:44 
 Citroen Berlingo Multispace - 2005 1.9 Head - Update - bathtub tom
>>Rationale for head overhaul as suggested by garage is that valves may be burned. Do you think that's seriously likely.

Yes!

I've experienced the same problem and got away with just using grinding paste to re-seat the valves (and re-shimming). Although that was a petrol engine.
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 Wed 20 May 15 16:00 
 Citroen Berlingo Multispace - 2005 1.9 Head - Update - No FM2R
>>Rationale for head overhaul as suggested by garage is that valves may be burned. Do you think that's seriously likely.

No.

Because that would not likely be improved as the engine heated up.

Since the problem seemingly goes away when the engine is warmer, then you're probably only looking at variable problems, not constant ones. Burned valves are reasonably constant.

If one does the clearances, then I presume that will solve the problem when the engine is cold.

When it is hot then worst case it will perform as now, perhaps a bit better.
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 Wed 20 May 15 16:15 
 Citroen Berlingo Multispace - 2005 1.9 Head - Update - RichardW
^^ wot he said!
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 Wed 20 May 15 16:18 
 Citroen Berlingo Multispace - 2005 1.9 Head - Update - Zero
"burned" valves is more of a petrol engine issue init?
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 Wed 20 May 15 16:24 
 Citroen Berlingo Multispace - 2005 1.9 Head - Update - No FM2R
And BTW, are you *sure* that you're in the right repairers?

"diagnosis is that head gasket has 'gone' creating a leak between those two cylinders that probably closes up at least in part when head warms up"

"According to my garage's workshop time software CHG replacement on this car is a major job due lack of space in engine bay. FWIW though Haynes says that while that's true of HDi version the 1.9's head CAN be removed with engine in situ."

"I've mentioned them [valve clearances] because it's come up here before and my Brother in Law had a similar issue with his older XUD version. Garage dismiss it as a possibility."

"Garage advice is that ......... make an exchange engine considerably cheaper than a full repair.

"Rationale for head overhaul as suggested by garage is that valves may be burned."

In any given circumstance they seem to consistently recommend the bigger and usually more expensive route, irrespective of the actual likely fault.
Last edited by: No FM2R on Wed 20 May 15 at 16:26
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 Wed 20 May 15 16:41 
 Citroen Berlingo Multispace - 2005 1.9 Head - Update - Bromptonaut
Mark,

No I'm not. I've been a long term customer (15+yrs) and over that time experience has been they're friendly, reasonably priced, and usually competent. I'm a known regular customer ad get an element of priority for bookings and courtesy cars. They're also near the station which was a big plus when I was commuting to London.

This experience with what Richard W and others in the Pug/Cit world describe as a known issue is worrying - may have gone off the boil. Mind you, they subcontracted some investigation to diesel specialists who had more diagnostic kit and they didn't hit on this issue either.

John's Motors in Foster's Booth might be worth a look - a local business of whom others think well. No good while I needed to drop car and scoot to London but only 15mins from home on a Brompton.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Wed 20 May 15 at 16:44
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 Wed 20 May 15 17:07 
 Citroen Berlingo Multispace - 2005 1.9 Head - Update - No FM2R
Well watch this one Simon, because this isn't the type of job you want to go wrong. Mind you, neither is it the ideal type of job to try out a new repairer.

You're closer to them, but I'd think about it carefully. Valves & cams & belts can be *REALLY* expensive if they go wrong.

Now if John's Motors is the one one the right as you head away from Towcester that used to have an old light blue, Mk1 Escort estate, then I have used them and I found them really good - old style, sensible mechanics with good problem solving skills, but with the brains and openness to mess around with more modern stuff. They looked after a Landcruiser for me, but that was 5 years ago or so.
Last edited by: No FM2R on Wed 20 May 15 at 17:08
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 Wed 20 May 15 20:17 
 Citroen Berlingo Multispace - 2005 1.9 Head - Update - Bromptonaut
>> You're closer to them, but I'd think about it carefully. Valves & cams & belts
>> can be *REALLY* expensive if they go wrong.

Done that, got T-shirt.

Current garage's MD is fundamentally an honest trader but perhaps less focussed than he should be on the current problems with older examples in his supposed niche of French cars. Looking back to my Xantia he was incredibly good with hydraulics but less clued on the model's appetite for battery>alternator>starter wiring looms due effects of load cycling, temperature and electrolysis. .

>> Now if John's Motors is the one one the right as you head away from
>> Towcester

That's the one.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Wed 20 May 15 at 20:18
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 Wed 20 May 15 21:09 
 Citroen Berlingo Multispace - 2005 1.9 Head - Update - RichardW
Mark Lightfoot in Ilkeston is not that far from you - a day out in the Peaks and getting the car fixed. He posts over on Frenchcarforum and certainly knows what he is talking about - might be a while since he has done a DW8 though - he does lots of 1.6 HDi turbos, injectors etc etc!
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 Wed 20 May 15 13:55 
 Citroen Berlingo Multispace - 2005 1.9 Head - Update - Manatee
>> >>Not sure how no valve clearances (ie closed up valves) can lead to low compression?
>>
>> I get that bit, presumably the valve is either not completely closing or closing for
>> only a short period of time.
>>
>> But wouldn't it be worse when hot?

It's not closed up valves, it's closed up clearances. When the valve is off cam there is no slack left for the valve spring to pull the valve fully shut. Hence no/low compression, and difficult starting.
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 Wed 20 May 15 20:43 
 Citroen Berlingo Multispace - 2005 1.9 Head - Update - Armel Coussine
Valve seat recession will lead eventually to burnt exhaust valves and then you're in trouble. Doesn't take long to make them beyond regrinding.

Can't remember what car it was but I once had to have steel valve seat inserts and new valves. Expensive and not really worth it.
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 Wed 20 May 15 21:01 
 Citroen Berlingo Multispace - 2005 1.9 Head - Update - Dog
Was that the ole Skoda, Sire? Everyone I ever checked had tight or non existent valve clearances.
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 Wed 20 May 15 23:39 
 Citroen Berlingo Multispace - 2005 1.9 Head - Update - Armel Coussine
>> Was that the ole Skoda, Sire? Everyone I ever checked had tight or non existent valve clearances.

I think it was. Can't remember the whole story though. That cast-iron head did let the valves sink down a bit. But I used to adjust them regularly once I twigged... it isn't rocket science.

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 Fri 22 May 15 12:27 
 Citroen Berlingo Multispace - 2005 1.9 Head - Update - Bromptonaut
Returned the courtesy car this morning and took opportunity to recover some bits/bobs - mainly one of my airband scanners* - from the Berlingo. Took opportunity for a peak under the bonnet while one of the techs, a Russian lad who the proprietors wife has previously described in glowing terms (don't smirk at the back!) was working on it.

The camshaft was out and everything clean and tidy, manifold orifices plugged up etc. Tech was working at the bench using a micrometer - presumably to confirm the thickness of shims. Should be ready early next week. I'm away but the Lad will be home and he can collect it.

Local use only though until I've had chance to give it some proper shakedown runs.

*A Maycom A109 bought for £50 on ebay that lives in car and is just the job for using in a pocket with an earpiece.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Fri 22 May 15 at 12:29
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 Fri 22 May 15 13:07 
 Citroen Berlingo Multispace - 2005 1.9 Head - Update - WillDeBeest
Fingers crossed for you, Bromp.

Imagine a whole weekend without one's portable airband scanner!
};---)
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      1  
 Fri 22 May 15 22:20 
 Citroen Berlingo Multispace - 2005 1.9 Head - Update - Bromptonaut
>> Imagine a whole weekend without one's portable airband scanner!
>> };---)

You can mock all you like but it's like being a footie fan this weekend with no access to Premiership scores. :-P
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 Fri 22 May 15 22:53 
 Citroen Berlingo Multispace - 2005 1.9 Head - Update - WillDeBeest
You can mock all you like...

Thank you.
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      1  
 Fri 22 May 15 22:39 
 Citroen Berlingo Multispace - 2005 1.9 Head - Update - sooty123
>> Fingers crossed for you, Bromp.
>>
>> Imagine a whole weekend without one's portable airband scanner!
>> };---)
>>

I wonder do any other sort of spotter have them, are there train and minicab spotters that use them?
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 Fri 22 May 15 22:46 
 Citroen Berlingo Multispace - 2005 1.9 Head - Update - Old Navy
>> I wonder do any other sort of spotter have them, are there train and minicab
>> spotters that use them?
>>

I assume a scanner is essential for cycle spotting. Sweaty blokes in Lycra detector? :-)
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      1  
 Fri 22 May 15 22:51 
 Citroen Berlingo Multispace - 2005 1.9 Head - Update - Zero

>> I wonder do any other sort of spotter have them, are there train and minicab
>> spotters that use them?

Trains use one of two methods of communicating. CSR (Cab Secure Radio) and / or GSM/R (essentially the same type of system as police airwave)

Both are encrypted.
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 Fri 22 May 15 22:55 
 Citroen Berlingo Multispace - 2005 1.9 Head - Update - sooty123
But you would if you could?
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 Sun 31 May 15 20:51 
 Citroen Berlingo Multispace - 2005 1.9 Head Problems - Report - Bromptonaut
The re-shimming work was completed by Tuesday last week and, in my absence on holiday, The Lad collected Enrico from the garage on Wednesday. He took it on some 'shakedown runs' locally which were reported as OK but my Father's lack of mechanical feel skipped a generation so I wasn't convinced until I'd tried it for myself which I couldn't do until today.

It now starts immediately on turn of the key then runs sweet and idles smoothly. It's pulling well and there's a realisation on my part that actually the engine had gradually got noisier over an extended period of time.

The Lad did Kettering an back twice yesterday (taxi for his sis) and I'll give it a few leg stretches on the M1 during the week. It'll get a full workout on Friday for the end of Uni year trip to Liverpool and back.

It seems though to be sorted - excepting the o/s rear tyre that I noticed was soft this afternoon. Quick trip to F1 at Sixfields tomorrow should see that sorted.

I've not got the invoice yet but expect around £450 including parts.
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 Sun 31 May 15 21:03 
 Citroen Berlingo Multispace - 2005 1.9 Head Problems - Report - sooty123
>> I've not got the invoice yet but expect around £450 including parts.
>>

Seems reasonable, many 'big' servicings cost more than that on some cars. I know, I've done it!
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 Sun 31 May 15 21:33 
 Citroen Berlingo Multispace - 2005 1.9 Head Problems - Report - Duncan
>> It seems though to be sorted - excepting the o/s rear tyre that I noticed
>> was soft this afternoon. Quick trip to F1 at Sixfields tomorrow should see that sorted.
>>
>>
>> I've not got the invoice yet but expect around £450 including parts.
>>

There you are, 133 posts and 450 quid.

Job done.

I told you so.

;-)

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 Mon 8 Jun 15 17:47 
 Citroen Berlingo Multispace - 2005 1.9 Head Problems - Report - Bromptonaut
Well it's now had well over 500 miles of 'shakedown', including a 300 mile round trip to Liverpool, and is performing flawlessly. Starts on the key and immediately idles smoothly, pulling a bit better than it was too.

Brim/brim fuel check for the Liverpool trip gave 44mpg, pretty much what I'd expect.

Final invoice was witihn a whisker of £500.

Hopefully that concludes the story...

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 Mon 8 Jun 15 20:25 
 Citroen Berlingo Multispace - 2005 1.9 Head Problems - Report - Duncan
>> Well it's now had well over 500 miles of 'shakedown', including a 300 mile round
>> trip to Liverpool, and is performing flawlessly. Starts on the key and immediately idles smoothly,
>> pulling a bit better than it was too.
>>
>> Brim/brim fuel check for the Liverpool trip gave 44mpg, pretty much what I'd expect.
>>
>> Final invoice was witihn a whisker of £500.
>>
>> Hopefully that concludes the story...

And the moral of this story?

Is this!

If you want a job doing quickly, cheaply and efficiently give it to a civil servant!

Started April 19th 2014, so thirteen and a half months later, 137 posts and 450 quid the job is done!

Didn't take long, did it?






Just teasing you, Bromp!
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 Mon 8 Jun 15 20:58 
 Citroen Berlingo Multispace - 2005 1.9 Head Problems - Report - The Melting Snowman
>> If you want a job doing quickly, cheaply and efficiently give it to a civil servant!

Well maybe not always give it to a civil servant but neither is it the case that 'quickly, cheaply and efficiently' are automatically associated with the commercial sector. Based on my experience of working in both sectors. Too much political dogma out there unfortunately, combined with vested interests.

[thread drift alert...]

Last edited by: The Melting Snowman on Mon 8 Jun 15 at 20:59
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 Mon 8 Jun 15 20:59 
 Citroen Berlingo Multispace - 2005 1.9 Head Problems - Report - Bromptonaut
No offene taken Duncan.

I fell of course for another Civil service trait. Mucked about until I found something (new glo-plugs) that seemed to make problem go away and then ignored it for a bit when it came back.
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 Mon 8 Jun 15 23:35 
 Citroen Berlingo Multispace - 2005 1.9 Head Problems - Report - Lygonos
Pity - these guys are doing new ones for a shade over 10 grand:

www.drivethedeal.com/SpecialOffers.aspx


CITROEN BERLINGO MULTISPACE DIESEL ESTATE 1.6 BlueHDi 100 Feel Family Pack [7 Seat] 5dr

7 Seat Citroen Berlingo Multispace. Brand new and unregistered available in either Passion red or Polar white.

Metallic Colours available at an additional £494. All colours have grey cloth upholstery as standard.

We include 12 months tax as standard.

List price £16,890

Our price £10,495
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 Wed 10 Jun 15 21:15 
 Citroen Berlingo Multispace - 2005 1.9 Head Problems - Report - Bromptonaut
Looks as though they've gone now. No surprise at that price.

I'd guess DTD or a dealer was stuck with a cancelled order, probably from a taxi co.

Cannot recall all details of the 7 seat - we've no need - but so far as I do it's got different weights/loads to the BS 5 seater.
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