Motoring Discussion > Parking charge appeal	Legal Questions
Thread Author: Rick O'Shea	Replies: 38

New Thu 23 Apr 15 14:22   Parking charge appeal - Rick O'Shea

www.brentwoodgazette.co.uk/Barry-Beavis-parking-appeal-Supreme-Court/story-26379652-detail/story.html And so it goes on..... Reply to this message | Report message

New Thu 23 Apr 15 14:30   Parking charge appeal - No FM2R

As I understand, and please correct me if I'm wrong; He parked somewhere on private land. Correctly displayed were conditions about parking there (2hr time limit). He breached those condition with no particular justification He's trying to get out of the charge anyway on the basis that he can do what he likes on their land, but they can't charge him what they like. Good luck to him if he can, even if I do think he's totally in the wrong, but... "He fumed: "When I read the judgement I felt physically sick."" Bless. I'm not sure he's got the stamina for such a fight. Reply to this message | Report message

New Thu 23 Apr 15 14:39   Parking charge appeal - Rick O'Shea

Must be good money in Fish 'n' Chips, I don't think I could afford the legal/court costs that he must be incurring. As somebody who paid a similar penalty amount for falling asleep in a motorway service area, and didn't have the nerve to challenge it I say good luck to him. Reply to this message | Report message

New Thu 23 Apr 15 14:43   Parking charge appeal - No FM2R

Were you in the car asleep?? Because if so that's pretty unfriendly of them. As for this bloke, the car park management people should do their job properly and if they don't and he can get around it, then good luck to him and a lesson to them. But this self-righteous indignation, hero complex really irritates me. Last edited by: No FM2R on Thu 23 Apr 15 at 14:45 Reply to this message | Report message

New Thu 23 Apr 15 18:30   Parking charge appeal - Rick O'Shea

>> Were you in the car asleep?? Because if so that's pretty unfriendly of them. >> Yes I was in the car asleep, I presume it was purely done with ANPR cameras so they wouldn't know I was in the car. Reply to this message | Report message

New Thu 23 Apr 15 16:49   Parking charge appeal - CGNorwich

He's not a happy haddock is he? Reply to this message | Report message

New Thu 23 Apr 15 17:34   Parking charge appeal - legacylad

As Battery Sargeant Major Williams would say ''Oh dear, how sad, never mind'' Reply to this message | Report message

New Thu 23 Apr 15 17:53   Parking charge appeal - Manatee

Are we missing the point here, which is that people have hitherto been advised to ignore these disproportionate overstay penalties which have previously been judged unreasonable. If a court with power to set precedent is now saying, albeit on a different construction, that Parking Eye can enforce these penalties/deterrents then things have changed for all of us. Reply to this message | Report message

New Thu 23 Apr 15 17:56   Parking charge appeal - Bromptonaut

Here is the full judgement: www.judiciary.gov.uk/judgments/parkingeye-ltd-v-beavis/ Not had time to read it yet. Reply to this message | Report message

New Thu 23 Apr 15 18:16   Parking charge appeal - CGNorwich

The point is that the the court had decided that £85 is not a dis-proportionate amount of damages for a breach of the contract that is entered into when you enter a Parking Eye car park and that the courts will enforce such a contract. A lot of the barrack-room lawyers, blokes down the pub and parking experts on the internet have been proved wrong. It's s good thing really. We now have certainty. Best to simply comply with the rules but I know a lot of people find that difficult for some reason Reply to this message | Report message

New Thu 23 Apr 15 18:29   Parking charge appeal - Manatee

>> It's s good thing really. We now have certainty. Best to simply comply with the >> rules but I know a lot of people find that difficult for some reason I can't really go with that. I'm all for following the rules but sometimes things happen - a simple oversight, being 10 minutes late and £85? Come on. £5 an hour would be more like it. That's the point here. The view hitherto has been that the £85 is not representative of the loss/damage. They have tried to argue previously that it is, and failed. So now they have dropped that and claim it is a deterrent (I infer - I'll let Bromp read the judgement and report!) But that seems flawed to me. Reducto ad absurdum, what if it was a £1,000 deterrent? £2,000? Even a deterrent must have a common sense proportionality. A much lower sum would deter most people. Reply to this message | Report message       1

New Thu 23 Apr 15 18:44   Parking charge appeal - Armel Coussine

>> Even a deterrent must have a common sense proportionality. A much lower sum would deter most people. Yes. CGN is being a bit pathetic. These aren't even rules, they are just a pickpocketing scam by privatized local authority stand-ins. Reply to this message | Report message

New Thu 23 Apr 15 19:14   Parking charge appeal - CGNorwich

Judging by the number of people who overstay in car parks it clearly need a fairly substantial charge to deter them. I really don't think a deal that is saying we will give you two hours free parking our nice car park absolutely free but if you choose to stay longer it will cost you £85 is a bad deal. If you don't like it you don't have to park there. I really think people start taking responsibility for their actions in many areas of their lives. Reply to this message | Report message

New Thu 23 Apr 15 19:43   Parking charge appeal - Armel Coussine

>> I really think people start taking responsibility for their actions in many areas of their lives. They do, do they? I think you really think they SHOULD start taking responsibility for their actions... But honestly CGN, what makes you think they don't? Do these council carphounds take responsibility for setting thieving 'rules', often poorly explained in small, rare notices? My impression is that they just take the money and slither... slimy gits. Reply to this message | Report message

New Thu 23 Apr 15 19:51   Parking charge appeal - CGNorwich

Yes you are right I missed out "should" There were over twenty notices in that car park explaining the terms and clearly setting out the overstay charge in a legible print. What on earth do they have to do? Hand out a note personally to each motorist explaining in words of one syllable what the terms are and get them to counter sign the agreement to acknowledge they understand? Reply to this message | Report message

New Thu 23 Apr 15 19:44   Parking charge appeal - CGNorwich

The judge said: "The real question is whether the imposition of a charge of £85 - or £50 for prompt payment - in order to promote a regular turnover of vehicles for the benefit of the community as a whole creates a significant imbalance in the relationship of a kind which renders the term unfair, given that the motorist is made aware of the term when he enters the car park. "In the end I am satisfied that in this case the amount payable by the appellant is not extravagant or unconscionable and that the court should therefore not decline to enforce the contract. "I would therefore dismiss the appeal." Sounds eminently reasonable to me. Reply to this message | Report message

New Thu 23 Apr 15 19:48   Parking charge appeal - Armel Coussine

>> Sounds eminently reasonable to me. Sounds like typical pompous meaningless legal guff to me. Judges are lawyers and very often appalling old ruffians. But they talk the talk for what it's worth. The rest of us are putty in their hands. Reply to this message | Report message

New Thu 23 Apr 15 19:55   Parking charge appeal - CGNorwich

'Judges are lawyers and very often appalling old ruffians. But they talk the talk for what it's worth. The rest of us are putty in their hands. ' On the other hand many motorists are terminally thick as you often point out. I'm with the judges. Reply to this message | Report message       2

New Thu 23 Apr 15 20:14   Parking charge appeal - Armel Coussine

>> On the other hand many motorists are terminally thick as you often point out. I'm with the judges. You can sympathize up to a point with a thicko driving a car. We've all been that in our time. But it takes years of gruelling effort, and serious brains (of a certain sort), to become a barrister then judge and hold the power of life and death over anyone brought before his or her court. Not death any more, in this country, but they still had that power in my youth and sometimes abused it. Give me a half-witted motorist any day before a wicked old beast of a judge. At least the motorist means no harm. (Of course there are good judges too. But the power they have would corrupt them if they weren't corrupt in the first place, a qualification for the job). Oh yes as Mr Major would say. Reply to this message | Report message

New Thu 23 Apr 15 20:20   Parking charge appeal - CGNorwich

Law or chaos. Simple choice really. Not a big fan of chaos myself. Reply to this message | Report message

New Thu 23 Apr 15 20:30   Parking charge appeal - Armel Coussine

>> Not a big fan of chaos myself. Nor me CGN, and I've seen some chaos in my time. Nevertheless we don't have to idealize the law or judges. Indeed after seeing a few judges and brushing up against the law you really don't want to. In fact you can't. Keeping order is a rough business and the people we employ to do it tend to be rough. Reply to this message | Report message

New Thu 23 Apr 15 19:51   Parking charge appeal - Bromptonaut

Judge has taken a pragmatic approach, differentiating parking from the more complex commercial arrangements referred to by appellant etc as authority for overturning 'unreasonable' penalties. Viewed that way it's difficult to argue; as CGN says (in one sense at least) it's eminently reasonable. Case is likely though to go to the Supreme Court where, as they say, all is still to play for. Reply to this message | Report message

New Thu 23 Apr 15 20:17   Parking charge appeal - legacylad

Another 14 fish, chips & curry sauce and its paid for. Personally I would devote all that energy to my business, but fortunately we are all different. Reply to this message | Report message

New Thu 23 Apr 15 21:01   Parking charge appeal - Manatee

I don't suppose a senior judge thinks £85 is a material sum. The reality is that these 'retail parks' need to deter people from parking there all day. They can't stop them parking there and shopping elsewhere very easily, and the majority will accomplish that in two hours or an immaterially longer time. A £5 an hour charge would deter the office workers. It's a racket. I hope Parking Eye's CEO's armpits are infested by the fleas of a thousand camels. s/he should be ashamed of him/herself. Reply to this message | Report message       1

New Thu 23 Apr 15 21:55   Parking charge appeal - Fullchat

There's a huge difference between those that abandon their car all day for a freebie and those that overstay a short while whilst they spend their hard earned. The 'enforcers' do not differentiate between the two. The industry is awash with bandits who take great please extracting the cash and then making you fight to prove your case. Many can't stomach the fight, roll over and pay up. They are all mugs to the 'enforcers'. The use of Police type bags and the printing of stationary to look like proper enforcement notices all goes to show the psychology behind the industry. The bedrock of law on the back of Human Rights is reasonability and proportionality. This type of decision falls into their hands and gives them credible licence to extort money. If you could guarantee that all car parks where enforcement takes place where correctly policed with adequate signage clearly displaying terms and conditions then so be it, but they aren't and these cowboys will always operate on the fringes. Life is complicated enough with ever increasing attempts to steal your savings in more and more elaborate ways. This is just another example which has tried to gain some respectability. Its an industry - nothing else. Last edited by: Fullchat on Thu 23 Apr 15 at 21:58 Reply to this message | Report message       1

New Thu 23 Apr 15 22:56   Parking charge appeal - zippy

The parking companies can only take action against the person who parks the car and not the car's keeper as local councils can so as long as you don't tell them who parked the car then there is no problem. At a local shopping centre car park the penalty notices are at the junction just off a very busy roundabout. I can imagine chaos if all the drivers stopped to read the notices - queues would stretch for miles! Reply to this message | Report message

New Thu 23 Apr 15 23:02   Parking charge appeal - Bromptonaut

>> The parking companies can only take action against the person who parks the car and >> not the car's keeper as local councils can so as long as you don't tell >> them who parked the car then there is no problem. No longer the case. See s.56 and Sch. 4 to Protection of Freedoms Act 2012. Reply to this message | Report message

New Thu 23 Apr 15 23:08   Parking charge appeal - No FM2R

Your choices; 1) Don't park on my land at all. 2) Park on my land and obey my rules 3) Park on my land, ignore my rules, and get sued for £100 As ever, the Daily Mail readers want to go for; 4) Do what you like on someone else's land and then whine like a stuck pig This is all game playing on the part of people trying to avoid thinking. I do not really believe that any significant amount are people who have overstayed by 10 minutes. If that were the case, can they charge anybody who is 15 minutes late £10 and then double the charge for every 15 minutes? Reply to this message | Report message

New Thu 23 Apr 15 23:25   Parking charge appeal - CGNorwich

"and then double the charge for every 15 minutes?" I think the parking firms would go along with that. After two and a half hours the £10 charge would have doubled ten times in increasing to £5,120 Probably best to stick with a flat £85 ;-) Reply to this message | Report message

New Thu 23 Apr 15 23:34   Parking charge appeal - zippy

>>No longer the case. See s.56 and Sch. 4 to Protection of Freedoms Act 2012. I think it is understandable that councils (authorities who have to abide by certain rules) get to go after the keeper of a vehicle if a fine is unpaid but for a private company that clearly is in it for profit motives only - is a step too far! Reply to this message | Report message

New Thu 23 Apr 15 23:42   Parking charge appeal - legacylad

NO FM2R Stuck pigs squeal, not whine Have you not seen Deliverance? Reply to this message | Report message

New Thu 23 Apr 15 23:50   Parking charge appeal - No FM2R

Seen it? I was in it. That was me standing there watching Zero dancing to the duelling banjos. Reply to this message | Report message

New Thu 23 Apr 15 23:59   Parking charge appeal - Armel Coussine

>> I was in it. That was me standing there watching Zero dancing to the duelling banjos. I thought you were the better of the two banjo players. The halfwit with the blank eyes. Reply to this message | Report message

New Fri 24 Apr 15 23:47   Parking charge appeal - Fullchat

www.youtube.com/watch?v=1tqxzWdKKu8 Reply to this message | Report message

New Sat 25 Apr 15 00:08   Parking charge appeal - Armel Coussine

Thank you Fc. Good isn't it? The technical term is sh**kicking I believe. Reply to this message | Report message

New Fri 24 Apr 15 00:17   Parking charge appeal - legacylad

Very droll Like it! Reply to this message | Report message

New Fri 24 Apr 15 12:23   Parking charge appeal - Bill Payer

I suppose a chunk of the charge will be admin costs - they've got to pay to get the RK's name and address, and have an office with staff, equipment etc to do that, and send the invoices out. So charging a fiver is never going to happen. Reply to this message | Report message

New Sat 25 Apr 15 08:43   Parking charge appeal - Zero

>> Seen it? I was in it. That was me standing there watching Zero dancing to >> the duelling banjos. Oh Har de Har Reply to this message | Report message

New Sat 25 Apr 15 08:50   Parking charge appeal - Zero

>> This is all game playing on the part of people trying to avoid thinking. I >> do not really believe that any significant amount are people who have overstayed by 10 >> minutes. If this leads to a significant proportion of people getting stung for outrageous "penalties" for short periods of overstay, there will be a backlash. Public backlash against the retailer who employs them who in turn will dump them, or a backlash in government where some backbencher will choose 15 minutes of fame to introduce a private members bill or a prospective party will make it a cornerstone of policy. If however its fairly rare then it will continue. I hope this fish and chip bloke employs better council at the appeal, the last fella sounded like a real numbskull. Reply to this message | Report message