tinyurl.com/p3aglpz
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I don’t want to hijack another thread so thank you for being concerned Duncan.
This was one of our drivers and it happened so close to home. Phil had been with us around 15 years and we all knew him so well, both as a work colleague and friend.
We all found it hard to deal with, so many questions, no answers.
I went to his funeral on Monday and his Harley was ridden by a close friend and led the coffin through March to the crematorium followed by 12 more behind the hearse.
I wanted to post about it, I needed to post about it but knew I couldn’t handle it if it went the way some threads do.
Pat
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Terrible whenever something like this happens, but of course knowing someone involved makes it harder. Thoughts are with you all ,and of course his family Pat.
Peter.
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I did hear about that, and hoped that is wasn't someone you knew Pat, not that, that makes the incident any less horrific.
My thoughts are with you Pat, and all family and friends.
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Condolences. Horrible thing to happen.
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You've been through worse Pat, you'll bounce back.
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Yes - for what little it's worth, sympathies, Pat.
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Really sorry to hear that, met quite a few of the drivers there as you know and they were all a lovely bunch :(.
Last edited by: RattleandSmoke on Wed 25 Mar 15 at 12:25
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Yeah, horrible. Sorry about yr colleague Pat of course.
We car drivers tend to think that we are at risk from lorries which are much bigger than us. But those processions of trucks in the n/s lane of motorways can turn very nasty when something goes wrong.
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Pat emailed me about this the other day and was in two minds whether to post about it or not.
Glad you have Pat, and like others have said, condolences.
Hope you're ok.
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Really sorry to hear about this Pat, I had actually been thinking about you last week.
On Tues night me and the missus had an overnight in a hotel in Newtonmore near Aviemore. The following night there was a fatal accident involving 2 HGVs on the A9 and the road was closed and all the traffic was diverted along outside the hotel.
Yet another person going out to work like normal and sadly never returning home.
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So sorry, Pat. May he rest in peace.
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Sorry to hear this bad news too.
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The same from me too Pat. I'd be interested to know the outcome of the arrest in the fullness of time.
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Lost a few former colleagues in unexpected circumstances over the last few years. Sad news indeed Pat.
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Thanks for all the kind thoughts, they really do help.
We know very little of what actually happened at the moment and I suspect it will stay that way until the court case.
Strangely, we all stood talking on Monday and not one of us has any animosity to the other driver. We all recognise that it could so easily have been one of us making a wrong decision, however that could change I suppose, when we know more of the actual cause of the accident.
I will post any news on the case.
Pat
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I note the other driver has been charged and kept in custody.
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Yes, we noticed that too. Unusual, I think.
Pat
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Condolences from here too Pat.
I guess we've all lost colleagues to illness but something 'out of the blue' like this makes it much worse.
Very early in my career we sent a colleague in his twenties off to admin an event in Bristol. Usual joshing about picking up a girl and we added several unnecessary heavy text books to his bag.
He died of a cerebral aneurysm on the train. Somebody else had to go to Bristol, calling at Swindon to identify the deceased.
Was long time before practical jokes were funny again.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Thu 26 Mar 15 at 10:45
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>> Was long time before practical jokes were funny again.
Not surprised, someone had to go and retrieve the heavy books. (sorry couldn't resist it)
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Here we are
www.cambridge-news.co.uk/Driver-Vasile-Chindris-jailed-death-loveable/story-26657301-detail/story.html#comments
I would appreciate WP's thoughts on this one and wonder if Bromp knows any way of finding the transcript of the case please?
Pat
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Pat,
In cases that are high profile (eg Rolf Harris or child murder) the judge's sentencing remarks are usually placed on the judiciary website. Don't know if that's a transcript or something the judge writes on his computer. I doubt that will happen in this case and can only suggest 'phoning Cambridge Crown Court and asking them.
I suspect that, although the proceedings are taped, the tape is only transcribed if needed (eg for an appeal). Transcription is expensive so anyone wanting it may be asked to pay.....
Death by careless is an offence introduced after a public campaign. Sentences are always going to look lenient because in reality whether a given incident results in death is almost a lottery.
The sentence in this case contrasts with that afforded to the Albanian illegal we were discussing last week. Both would have got a discount for guilty but his behaviour was much closer to 'dangerous' than here.
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Thanks Bromp.
I've got very mixed feelings about this but a lot of people are wondering why the charge would be reduced.
Pat
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>> Thanks Bromp.
>>
>> I've got very mixed feelings about this but a lot of people are wondering why
>> the charge would be reduced.
The CPS says:
The offence of causing death by careless driving under section 2B of the RTA 1988 is committed when the manner of the suspect's driving causes the death of another person.
The definition of this offence is linked to the provisions of section 3ZA of the RTA 1988. The section stipulates that a person is to be regarded as driving without due care and attention if (and only if) the way he drives falls below what would be expected of a competent and careful driver.
The clear difference between this offence and an offence of causing death by dangerous driving is the standard of driving. For causing death by dangerous driving, the standard of driving must fall far below what would be expected of a competent and careful driver; whereas for this offence the standard of driving must merely fall below what would be expected of a competent and careful driver.
www.cps.gov.uk/consultations/draft_driving_2012_consultation.html#a30
A possible nuance here (in my mind only) is that for a professional driver qualified to a higher standard than a car licence holder needs to be, the expected standard might be higher.
Note that the distraction to which he admits was caused by a broken down vehicle. If the distraction had been because he was changing the CD, using a phone etc. then that would probably have promoted the charge to 'dangerous' - see below.
www.cps.gov.uk/news/fact_sheets/dangerous_driving/
This suggests to me that 'careless' is the right level.
As to the sentence...8 months is a long was from the maximum of 5 years.
I think it is on the low side. There is no margin for error on a road like that with 2 LGVs going in opposite directions, and they would have seen each other from a long way off. Even allowing that nobody's concentration is total 100% of the time, it should have been in that situation.
But depending on one's point of view, one might think it was a case of a ghastly accident that could happen to anybody, or a serious case of irresponsible driving that was likely to have fatal consequences. Had it been your colleague who "caused" the collision, what would you have thought (serious question, not making an argument).
Last edited by: Manatee on Tue 9 Jun 15 at 13:56
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Thanks Manatee, that explains so much.
To clarify, there was a broken down van parked on his side of the road and it is a long sweeping bend. He pulled out to pass it and then saw Phil coming the other way, and swerved to avoid him.
His tipper trailer had a Hiab Crane attached to the vehicle which is top heavy, and would have easily caused the vehicle to go out of control when he swerved.
His tacho records couldn't be checked because it was destroyed in the fire but Phils were checkable, and totally legal, from the historical tracker trace in the office IT system.
He is very young and may also lack the experience of having to swerve with a high centre of gravity (which isn't his fault)
Phil's family and colleagues feel the punishment is too little as he's been in custody since March and will be released in about a month or so.
I, on the other hand, can recall many a time having to make a split decision and getting away with what in hindsight, may not have been the best decision I could have made.
Added to this I am training at the weekend and this will obviously be the topic they will want to discuss and criticise, so I need to decide how to counter this beforehand and to do that I need to get it straight in my head first.
Thanks
Pat
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I think that also one has to consider the actual action/guilt...
What would people have believed would have been a reasonable punishment if your friend's truck had not been coming the other way and it has just been the one truck on its side and the only person injured had been the driver?
Because the level of guilt is the same. And as you say, we've all been there.
The difference is that this time there was some poor bloke in the way.
Last edited by: No FM2R on Tue 9 Jun 15 at 15:49
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Sorry Pat, I meant to say one other thing...
It works the other way as well. Perhaps some drivers should think carefully about the things that they did which didn't have consequences;
Turning without looking, reversing without checking, narrowly missing a parked vehicle, bit close to a cyclist etc. etc.
Because all it takes is some poor person in the wrong place at the wrong time, to turn a bit of carelessness into tragedy and a jail term.
Last edited by: No FM2R on Tue 9 Jun 15 at 16:02
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The holes-in-the-cheese principle. It usually requires several holes to line up for an accident to result. I find air accident reports curiously comforting because they reveal just how many improbable events happened all at once - the leaky fuel pump, missed by both technician and supervisor, the miscalculated fuel load, the unexpected headwind...take away any one and it would just have been a near miss.
Car driving is not such a well-ordered system - just as well or we'd all have to get up an hour earlier just to do the pre-drive checks before going to work - but the same principle applies; there just aren't so many slices of cheese, so you don't need so many holes to line up.
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The important thing, as I meant to say in support of NoFM, is to look at those situations where we noticed just in time that while we were busy with phone / fag / CD, the traffic ahead had stopped, or where we took a corner too fast and just collected the car short of the hedge, and understand not that our road hero reactions mean we can do what we like, but that we've been lucky. And by doing that - and not repeating the error - we fill in a hole.
I can hear AC's 'tchah!' from here. And I know he only does it to be contrary, so I'll ignore it.
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>> so I'll ignore it. <<<
So will I, because that is so true to everyday life on the road.
Pat
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news.stv.tv/west-central/1322712-steven-wood-accused-of-causing-death-by-careless-driving-in-largs/
Another case of tragic consequences for something that we may all have done at one time or another.
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Close to home - PeterS
