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6 die in Glasgow, and its all over the news headlines - expressions of sadness, sad day etc etc from all and sundry in power
4 die in Bath (inc a child) and, well its well down the front page, not a murmur from anyone of note. not even a mention on here.
Just thought I would stick this in as a placeholder, the next time someone moans about the press being "London or Southern" centric.
Last edited by: VxFan on Thu 12 Nov 15 at 10:14
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4 died in the Bath? Blimey.
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The difference is that the Bath lorry did not go through Christmas city center shoppers. Less opportunity for the press to sensationalise it, sad but just another RTA.
Last edited by: Old Navy on Tue 10 Feb 15 at 08:36
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Story has been on every five live bulletin since last night and covered in the Guardian.
www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2015/feb/10/bath-tipper-truck-crash-police-continue-investigations
But as ON says it's basically just another RTA.
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Used to cycle or run from the office in Bath back up to the Lansdown park & ride, and it's one heck of a hill. Wouldn't be at all surprised if that was a significant factor.
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Just another day at the office in terms of road deaths, it will have next to no impact on overall statistics.
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>> Just another day at the office in terms of road deaths, it will have next
>> to no impact on overall statistics.
Exactly. So why did we get all "national mourning - sadness of a nation' sheet over a glasgow bin lorry?
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>> Exactly. So why did we get all "national mourning - sadness of a nation' sheet
>> over a glasgow bin lorry?
Because it was more shocking. It involved more people, all pedestrians Christmas shopping, a large part of one family was wiped out etc.
And anyway the Bath case is actually getting proportionate coverage. Headline on Mail website for example.
www.dailymail.co.uk/home/index.html
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>> And anyway the Bath case is actually getting proportionate coverage. Headline on Mail website for
>> example.
>>
>> www.dailymail.co.uk/home/index.html
Not.
Headline is First picture of British ex-pat accused of beating German tourist to death 'for filming his daughter on an iPad' at Spanish restaurant
But it is the mail.
Its 4th item on BBC lunchtime news. Your idea of proportionate is a little off kilter. We had much more coverage and longer for Glasgow incident than the Bath incident, despite the casually and death numbers being similar.
So as I say, just sticking this in as a pace holder for those who claim the regions don't get the same coverage.
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At the time I posted the Bath accident was first up on Mail. It's now moved down the running order a bit. Web news changes its lead all the time. Anyway, Bath's too far from the M25 to count as London and SE coverage. Wonder where story would be if skip lorry had run amok in Westminster
It's still far more prominent than you'd expect for a provincial RTA though.
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>> it's one heck of a hill. Wouldn't be at all surprised if that was a significant factor.
Having delivered to a few private addresses in Bath, this was my first thought.
I can't immediately see how an HGV with a conscious driver can "run away" to such a tragic extent. They're all automatic transmission now so continued acceleration is feasible I suppose. But lorry brakes are supposed to fail safe.
I'm not sure what I would do differently in that situation; it escalated quickly from simple brake failure to the certainty of a damage collision occurring. It seems the driver steered into many parked cars in an unsuccessful attempt to avoid the final outcome.
Last edited by: Dave_C220CDI on Tue 10 Feb 15 at 10:23
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The age of the driver of the tipper lorry is being reported as 19:
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-bristol-31359495
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I've seen an 8 wheel tipper's front pair turning in different directions. This was in Hanwell in the late Seventies. It was very messy with damage to buildings and cars.
Most, but not all tipper drivers seem to think that they are a law unto themselves and think that they are in sports cars when empty. Boy can those things fly. One company here seems to be calming down a bit poss due to the BIB attention they keep getting for some unknown reason!
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>> Most, but not all tipper drivers seem to think that they are a law unto
>> themselves and think that they are in sports cars when empty. Boy can those things
>> fly.
Which is why they feature so strongly in London bike accidents.
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>> Which is why they feature so strongly in London bike accidents.
Not because they have poor visibility, are more prevalent and have unprotected wheels?
Speed is rarely an issue in london.
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The blind ignorance of a large number of tipper drivers cannot be ignored.
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That was often the case in the seventies for sure. Whether it's the same now who knows.
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>> That was often the case in the seventies for sure. Whether it's the same now
>> who knows.
HAs to be posted - Again
www.youtube.com/watch?v=B5MtiQ1pjXc
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>> and think that they are in sports cars when empty.
>>
This one was full of gravel.
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How does an automatic lorry work?
If the "brakes fail", as is speculated happened here, then can the driver manually make it change down into lower gears to control the speed by engine braking?
If both the brakes and the gearbox have failed, is there a handbrake that can provide an emergency way of stopping?
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There isn't on a bus or coach so I can't imagine that there would be one on a lorry.
The lorry involved in the awful incident yesterday in Bath appears to be a Scania. I'd presume that it had a manual gearbox as it didn't look new enough to be fitted with an automatic gearbox. As far as I know, lorries have only been fitted with automatic 'boxes as standard over the last three or four years or so.
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There will be an air handbrake but, as with buses, no "park" position on the auto selector. IIRC the Scania OptiCruise autobox has a clutch pedal which is only used when pulling away from rest; once on the move the gears change automatically. I moved a brand new 08 plate one forward by its own length once, that's the only experience I have of the things. There will be a lady along soon with far more Scania knowledge than I.
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>>There will be a lady along soon with far more Scania knowledge than I.
Who's that? ;>)
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She must be doing 'er 'air.
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I don't recognise the place, it's a long time since I lived there, but Bath used to be the nearest thing I have to a home town. It's in a cup with some very, very steep roads in and out, although there's a level way in too.
In the Stanley Baker film Hell Drivers there's a sequence in which a lorry has had its brake lines cut. It's a crap movie though, ruined by speeded-up shots, no class at all apart from Baker and his arch-thug gangmaster enemy whose name (the actor's I mean) I always forget although he was a neighbour of ours in the Grove and drank in a pub I frequented. Herself may remember but I dursen't ax her for fear of a whomp upside mah haid for bein a old onanist...
On subject, no brakes with 20 tons of gravel in the back down one of those hills isn't a pretty thought at all. Will the truck owners have to do a runner to some remote part of the world to avoid being done for failing to maintain the thing? I'm holding my breath.
Last edited by: Armel Coussine on Tue 10 Feb 15 at 18:51
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I'm not very well briefed on Scanias and have never used one with automatic transmission; but I will suggest that one factor which might be of consequence is that drivers are no longer taught to use their gears to slow the vehicle.
Back in the day, if you were going to descend a hill like this one fully laden (and let's face it 1 in 5 isn't by any means the steepest in the UK) you'd approach the hill in a low gear and use the engine to hold the lorry back, using your brakes as little as possible to avoid overheating. It's a technique I still use today in places like mid-Wales and the valleys where steep hills like this are the rule rather than the exception. It should not really matter if the transmission is manual, semi or fully automatic since all of them, as far as I am aware, have an option for manual selection which in this case should have been used. It seems from the reports that the tipper driver was fairly young and so may never have had that kind of experience with both older vehicles and also the older training methods.
I would suggest that this driver has relied too much on his service brakes, they have overheated and faded with tragic consequences. Why, however, he did not apply his handbrake we have yet to find out. This at least would have locked the third axle which even with a full payload (in fact perhaps even more so) should have at least slowed his progress to a point which would have reduced the severity of the collision.
Bath is a horrible place through which to drive an HGV. I do regular trips to Radstock and going through the middle of Bath is the only viable option without encountering considerable diversions. The stretch between Radstock and the M4 is one I'm always glad to put behind me as I'm usually fully laden that way. I cannot comment either on whether the driver should have been in that place or not. Construction vehicles often have to go where other lorries have no need to.
There is no parallel whatsoever with the Glasgow incident BTW. I do however predict the usual bandwagon-jumping lorry ban campaigners to turn up hoping to burn a witch or two.
Last edited by: Harleyman on Tue 10 Feb 15 at 20:29
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>>There will be a lady along soon with far more Scania knowledge than I. <<
I was at work all day yesterday and in meetings where my phone was off.
When I came out I had 22 missed calls from both Jeremy Vine's researcher and a Sky News researcher wanting me to comment live about the accident.
My answer to them was when I have the FACTS, I'll comment.
It's the same on here.
I will say I'm saddened to see that speculation is rife and many of the 'facts' I have read on this thread are wrong though.
Off to work again now.
Pat
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The lorry driver in question had only just passed his test.
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-somerset-31454693
Inexperienced driver, or a fault with the lorry?
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>> Inexperienced driver, or a fault with the lorry?
Both perhaps. An inauspicious combination.
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Worth pointing out that the allegation that he'd only had his licence for 5 days is factually incorrect.
He had in fact passed his C+E test for artics 5 days previously, but he'd have had to pass a Category C test before that which is the one he would require to drive the lorry involved in the crash. He could easily have held this since not long after his 18th birthday, as the law now stands.
Details of how you can do this are here;
www.uk-trucking.net/driverdevelopment/yds.asp
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To the BBC's credit (for once) they have amended the article to include what I said above. Wasn't me who told them though!
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>> To the BBC's credit (for once) they have amended the article to include what I
>> said above. Wasn't me who told them though!
Perhaps they read C4P?
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The Wail has still printed the old version
Killer driver,19, had passed HGV test just 5 days before horror.
What is their excuse for that bold headline ?
It appears that PA may be the source
Online there is now a different report
www.dailymail.co.uk/wires/pa/article-2953271/Truck-driver-just-passed-test.html
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>> The Wail has still printed the old version
That really is an awful newspaper.
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>>drivers are no longer taught to use their gears to slow the vehicle.
I learned to double-declutch changing down as the manoeuvre was essential on the vehicle I learned to drive on, a Bren gun carrier. There is a warning sign on the main road south of one of the French Channel ports before a hilly portion to "Use Your Engine Brakes". I don't know if it would work on this lorry when changing from top to 1st. for maximum braking.
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>> I don't know if it would work on this lorry when changing from top to 1st. for maximum braking.
You'd have to be going very slowly in top gear to change into first without breaking the gearbox. You'd have to brake to the best of your ability and change down in sequence.
Can't help thinking a new driver with an obviously dodgy old truck might not be able to get it all together. It would be pretty fraught for anyone.
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>>That really is an awful newspaper. ( The Wail)
Also
The Daily Belly Laugh has a very bold headline on an inside page
"Lorry crash driver had licence for five days"
item starts "THE teenager who was driving a runaway tipper lorry that killed four people including a four year old girl had been qualified to drive it for only five days, it has emerged."
I think it might be that the trusted PA has made a mistake and this trusted report has been parroted by the daily press. I guess it is the norm to accept such copy.
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It wouldn't really matter if he had only held his qualification for five days would it? Qualified is qualified. At 19 he hasn't had it very long, regardless.
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There are signs on the M90 northbound for HGVs to use low gear prior to the descent to Bridge of Earn. On the Great Eastern Highway descent into Perth WA road trains have to stop in a lay by at the top, stay in a low gear when they move off, and there are gravel filled emergency runoffs to stop any runaway lorries. So using low gears is nothing new, I was taught it when I did my HGV training, if it is no longer taught it is a backward step. Can anyone with up to date HGV knowledge tell me if downhill starts are still taught?
Last edited by: Old Navy on Sat 14 Feb 15 at 15:02
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Local rag here have also back tracked on the "only qualified a week" line.
Turns out he grew up on a farm and had been driving farm vehicles for years. Also local reports are that he was sounding his horn repeatedly before the event, so my thoughts are that its most likely a mechanical issue rather than experience related
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.
Last edited by: Zero on Sat 14 Feb 15 at 21:16
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Unlike you to bite your tongue Z. :)
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>> Unlike you to bite your tongue Z. :)
>>
Hope he's immune to his own venom. :-)
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I merely put the wrong reply in the wrong thread. Old age I guess.
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At least you were alert enough to beat the edit.
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The press reports on this are appalling and wherever the fault is found to lie eventually, this driver will always be blamed as a result of the press in some peoples eyes.
I've been training this weekend and in a room of 15 lorry drivers there were five who had read the reports and thought the driver had only been driving for 4 days ...quite wrongly.
We had a bit of a straw poll and between 16 of us (myself included) there were only 3 of us who had ever experienced brake fade as the brakes overheat.
We agreed that left 13 drivers, with years of experience behind them, who had no experience whatsoever of how to deal with it should it happen.
It is pure speculation to suggest brake fade I must add, but the point we all made was that until something actually happens, none of us have any experience of how to deal with it.
The only possible advantage of years of experience is recognising the very subtle lack of performance of the brakes in the early stages to avoid it.
Pat
Last edited by: Pat on Sun 15 Feb 15 at 04:35
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There is a rock quarry near here which has a dirt road which runs parralel with the public road. Until it changed hands some years ago it had a series of signs along it. The first read 30 mph brake test, then good, followed by OK, then poor. This bit of road was only used by off road dump trucks, has no relevance to any accident, but is the only time I have seen this.
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>> The first read 30 mph brake test, then good, followed by
>> OK, then poor. This bit of road was only used by off road dump trucks,
To make it complete it needed a hairpin bend with a 100 foot drop off a cliff behind it. Just on the edge you could have the sign "This is BAD really really BAD"
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>>Just on the edge you could have the sign "This is
>> BAD really really BAD"
>>
The best way of ensuring well maintained brakes would be to set the test up so that the last sign is is on the workshop door.
Last edited by: Old Navy on Mon 16 Feb 15 at 07:30
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"We had a bit of a straw poll and between 16 of us (myself included) there were only 3 of us who had ever experienced brake fade as the brakes overheat."
That's about 20%. Which in comparison to smaller vehicles is quite significant. The majority of the population will never experience brake fade and probably don't even know what it is.
Training issue??
Last edited by: Fullchat on Sun 15 Feb 15 at 10:39
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So how many here then? I've had brake fade twice, the second time was on the flat too.
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>> So how many here then? I've had brake fade twice, the second time was on
>> the flat too.
>>
More than once on a drum braked Marina. Mind you, the brakes on those were so bad you hardly noticed.
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Me. In the Andes in my Dodge Ram. Quite worrying at the time.
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I've certainly experienced that in drum braked cars - Mini, Morris Minor, Morris Oxford, plenty of hills where I was brung up. My brother went a step further and boiled the brake fluid in a Viva GT.
Viva GT: goo.gl/d4RTNx
Pedal to the floor, no discernible retardation at all. That calmed him down a bit.
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>> My brother went a step further and boiled
>> the brake fluid in a Viva GT.
>>
>> Viva GT: goo.gl/d4RTNx
>>
>>
Great looking car, so sleek compared to the ungainly designs of today with their lumps and bumps sticking out everywhere. A neighbour had a Brabham Viva in red with that matt black bonnet, I used to lust after it.
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Viva GT. Now that's a classic I would like on my drive for some bizarre reason. Very few and far between now. The auction description states that they were only painted Glacier White. If I recall they were also painted in Le Mans Blue.
Last edited by: Fullchat on Sun 15 Feb 15 at 12:58
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>> Viva GT. Now that's a classic I would like on my drive for some bizarre
>> reason.
Oh come on. Viva Gt or Mk1 Escort Gt?
No choice is it really. I know which one would be on your drive. And mine.
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Indeed the Escort would take pride of place. But the Viva GT is different and with its air scooped matt black bonnet has a certain something.
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>> So how many here then? I've had brake fade twice,
A couple of times, notably in an Austin A55 many years ago (see my post of yesterday in Unusual Sightings).
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I have a a few times in drum braked cars, only once with disc brakes, and never in a lorry.
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Never. Somebody else on same camp-site as us at Alpe D'Huez c2002 did though. Car was a five yo Astra. Suspect brake fluid had never been changed and that he rode the brakes while descending rather than using the 'frein moteur' as suggested by signage.
Interesting to watch how other drivers deal with long Alpine or similar descents.
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Never brake fade, had total brake failure once tho in a mates Jensen Interceptor when the brake pedal and the master cylinder detached itself from the rusty firewall and disappeared into the engine compartment.
The hump on the roundabout and the handbrake finally did the job.
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Couple of times; once many years ago in an old Ford D-series which served to reinforce the lessons I mentioned above about choosing the right gear to start the descent. Second one was about 2004 descending a long steep hill coming down into Llanrhystud, off the mountain road from Llanybydder; 18-tonne ERF loaded to max with paving slabs. Nowhere near as bad as the first one but enough to tighten the sphincter.
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Long wheelbase Landrover Safari with 19 ft trailer............ going down from the Woodhead Road over the top into Holmfirth. I had an early thirties RR Phantom on the back.
Started getting less and less braking and more and more pumping on my bendy way down. The handbrake, on the propshaft would just have ripped the transmission off. Made it into a rough layby with a bit of an old uphill quarry track at the end. Was taking it to Nostell Priory for Sotheby's.
Total failure on the Jowett approaching traffic lights at Bucklow Hill in Cheshire. They were on red with standing traffic. I managed to whip it across to the right and into the car park of the Swan Inn. A trip round the empty car park slowed me down and the rescue brought me home. A wheel cylinder seal had failed.
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In the Scottish Highlands in a 1946 Rover 16 (immaculate, beautifully maintained), rod operated drum brakes front and rear. A long descent down a 1 in 4 hill with runoff places, . Car was in second gear and the freewheel locked so I had full engine braking. It was warm and dry.
By the end of the descent I had smoke pouring from the front drums which were glowing a dull red having burned off all the (expensive) heat proof paint..To make it even more terrifying, the rear drums had faded as well as I discovered when I tried to use the handbrake...
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Very early Nineties. Descending in to Lee Bay near Woolacombe/Mortehoe, my Bedford CF2 owned from new, developed brake fade. I was loaded to the Gunwales and all I could do was ride it around the corner as it loomed. My backside...................well, that's another matter.....
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Triumph Vitesse. Previous owner had skimmed the discs, unknown to me. Caliper piston must have pushed out a little too far and jammed, lightly holding pad against disc. Fluid boiled as I was approaching a roundabout on the A2. Three passengers commented I took it a bit fast!
Austin Princess wedge. I'd just fitted new Moprod brand pads from Halfords. They faded to nothing coming down a Welsh hillside with a caravan on the back. Handbrake and banging it in second saved the day. I don't think I've bought anything from that place since.
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>> Previous owner had skimmed the discs, unknown to me. Caliper piston must have pushed out a little too far and jammed, lightly holding pad against disc.
>> Moprod brand pads from Halfords.
I do know that some of those sintered-metal pads can gnaw through an old scored thinning disc very quickly, until high-speed braking starts to make an untoward noise and sensations.
New seals (or if necessary calipers etc.), new discs and new asbestos OE pads are the way to get all-disc brake systems working properly. Then you just have to avoid abusing them for the short time before you have to cough up for the same stuff all over again.
'Cars are expensive by nature, essentially a plaything for the rich'.
(AC, ad nauseam).
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>>.... new asbestos OE pads are....
>>
I don't think you will find any asbestos in OE friction material these days.
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The only time I suffered brake fade was in my MkII Cavalier. It had unventilated front discs which only worked for the first half-a-dozen hard stops... A teenager's lightning dash across Milton Keynes with its 70mph-limited dual carriageways and roundabouts every 1000 yards was only ever going to end one way.
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>> I don't think you will find any asbestos in OE friction material these days.
Pity. Really good stuff.
I guess Zimbabwe's going to have to rely on biltong and tourism from now on.
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>>Training issue??<<
That's why I allowed the group discussion to continue on the subject this weekend and although we're not allowed to alter the approved course in any way, I shall include it in depth for approval in next years course.
Pat
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The tipper driver if he passed his test at 17, only had a year or so before he qualified as an LGV driver.
Not enough road experience IMO to drive LGVs properly. He had the input to pass a test or tests without the necessary road skills learned in a car in all weathers, seasons or types of road. In his little time from car to truck, he may have never driven down/up a steep hill, been on a motorway or driven in fog. Yet he stepped from one category of licence to another so easily. And in a relatively short space of time.
I suggest that to migrate from car licence to LGV or PCV, you must have at least 4 years driving experience in a car from the time you take your car test until you can undertake any large vehicle driving.
I have LGV and PCV categories on my licence and over 20 years experience, before you ask Pat.
Last edited by: Mr. Ecs on Mon 16 Feb 15 at 13:11
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>>I have LGV and PCV categories on my licence and over 20 years experience, before you ask Pat<<
Then you will fully understand that however long you drive a car, you will never experience 32 tonnes pushing you down a steep hill.
Pat
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May be Pat.
But too many new car drivers are taught to rely on braking to slow down, when an experienced driver might use gears to slow to prevent brake fade. Relying on braking over a distance is a recipe for brake fade.
I still think his driving experience was not condusive with an ability to read the road or his vehicle.Brake fade is a fundamental part of LGV instruction. I was taught about it when I started and it was covered in my PCV input as well.
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Certainly got the impression when my children were learning that the teaching was very much "gears to go, brakes to slow". Would that really have been the same in the last say 10 years, for lorry / coach drivers?
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One of the demonstrations required during a HGV test with a manual box in my day was to to go from first to top gear and back to first again. Get any gear change wrong and you fail. Is this still a requirement? The hill would need to be extreme in gradient or length to require engine braking in a car with modern brakes.
Last edited by: Old Navy on Mon 16 Feb 15 at 17:10
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>>
>>The hill
>> would need to be extreme in gradient or length to require engine braking in a
>> car with modern brakes.
That's true in strict sense of needing engine braking to stay out of trouble. Doesn't stop me using it anyway. Just lifting the right foot is enough to get retardation on either of my current cars. On a steep rural>urban road such as we're discussing here I'd be using third gear, dropping to second as needed.
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>> Certainly got the impression when my children were learning that the teaching was very much
>> "gears to go, brakes to slow". Would that really have been the same in the
>> last say 10 years, for lorry / coach drivers?
Hand up to knowing sod all about LGV and PCV driving; but aren't many automatic now? Easy to get into the habit of letting the automatics do the work as the vast majority do in automatic cars - does that happen in buses and lorries, at least to an extent?
If "brakes to slow, gears to go" has been taught for decades on cars, then it will in any case have been taught to a lot of LGV/PCV drivers when they first learnt to drive.
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>> Hand up to knowing sod all about LGV and PCV driving; but aren't many automatic
>> now? Easy to get into the habit of letting the automatics do the work as
>> the vast majority do in automatic cars - does that happen in buses and lorries,
>> at least to an extent?
>>
Unfortunately, yes. The vast majority of new LGV's, and virtually all PSV's, are either automatic or at least a clutchless manual like the Volvo i-shift.
I am given to understand that one need only pass a test in a car with a manual gearbox these days, for that to qualify you to take vocational licences (LGV and PSV) on automatic vehicles and still be able to drive the manual versions.
Our old friend gordonbennet used to wax lyrical about Eaton Twin-split and David Brown gearboxes, along with such exotica as Foden's "Chinese puzzle" and the American Mack "quad box"; the latter has two gear levers and twenty forward gears and whilst I'd love to have a go at it I'm glad I don't have to drive one every day like my father's generation did. I could at need though, and indeed would derive considerable satisfaction from having done so. I've come across situations in recent years where a driver has refused to take out a manual LGV with a "four over four" gearbox (which can be learned by a child inside five minutes) because it was "too complicated".
Progress does not however mean that all the experience and learning of the past should be jettisoned in favour of the allegedly foolproof technology of today. Dependence on the latter might reduce accidents (at least on paper) but it will not, and indeed cannot, make us better drivers.
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>> Certainly got the impression when my children were learning that the teaching was very much
>> "gears to go, brakes to slow".
The Lad passed his test in October 2012 and I'm still offering 'advice' about easing off the throttle and letting the speed decay instead of using brakes (late!!).
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>>The Lad passed his test in October 2012 and I'm still offering 'advice' about easing off the throttle and letting the speed decay instead of using brakes (late!!).
Frightening for the passengers. I remember my father teaching me the same, and I've certainly provided similar advice to girlfriends.
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>> The Lad passed his test in October 2012 and I'm still offering 'advice' about easing
>> off the throttle and letting the speed decay instead of using brakes (late!!).
>>
I recognise that stage B, it's the "delay" before the brakes come on when I would have lifted off already that gets me, although to be the brakes are not applied particularly heavily, just more than if I were driving
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>> But too many new car drivers are taught to rely on braking to slow down,
>> when an experienced driver might use gears to slow to prevent brake fade. Relying on
>> braking over a distance is a recipe for brake fade.
Nowadays, in a modern car, in the UK?
I don't think so.
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I am a light brake user, there must be thousands of occasions where I have lifted off the accelerator when approaching a stop or almost stop situation, only to have someone pass me at relatively high speed only to brake heavily and us both to arrive at the stop together. I am sure you all know the ones, they only use full acceleration and braking and have never heard of smooth rapid progress. :)
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>> I am sure you all know the ones, they only use full acceleration and braking and have never heard of smooth rapid progress. :)
They won't be in the way for long ON. Unless they're spectacularly incompetent they are sure to be going faster than relaxed old mimsers like you and me.
The more I mimse the more I enjoy it. But of course I have an addictive personality.
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>> mimsers like you and me.
Speak for yourself. :)
Last edited by: Old Navy on Mon 16 Feb 15 at 19:20
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>> I suggest that to migrate from car licence to LGV or PCV, you must have at least 4 years
>> driving experience in a car
You can suggest that. But the DVLA does not require it otherwise it would be... well a requirement. But it is not.
None of us know how much experience he had of driving LGVs and equivalent (he was from a farm family wan't he so possibly had some relevant experience off public roads). We shouldn't speculate as we do not know what caused the accident. Perhaps he shouldn't have been on that hill. Perhaps the brakes had a problem and then quickly faded on the hill....
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Experience is only of use to people who learn from it. If it made a good driver then we wouldn't have seen the motorway pileups on Saturday, which included LGV and PCV drivers.
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>>>>which included LGV and PCV drivers<<
One of the accidents involved a PCV driver but the other one involved 3 HGV's and almost 10 times as many cars.
Mostly nose to tails shunts by cars failing to anticipate the road conditions so why is your focus on only the three 'Professional drivers'?
Does driving 'only' a car mean it is a licence to be thoroughly unprofessional and leave common sense at home?
I remember joining this forum some years ago and asking if being a lorry driver made me a professional....the answer was a resounding NO.
It should have been 'until something goes wrong' then all of a sudden we get the status so we can be slated for it.
Pat
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>> >>>>which included LGV and PCV drivers<<
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>> One of the accidents involved a PCV driver but the other one involved 3 HGV's
>> and almost 10 times as many cars.
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>> Mostly nose to tails shunts by cars failing to anticipate the road conditions so why
>> is your focus on only the three 'Professional drivers'?
It isn't, I said "included".
I'd like to think that LGV drivers are professional in every sense, and I have absolutely no doubt that many are. There are also some absolute menaces.
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Huge multi-vehicle shunts happen because people follow each other too closely in the n/s lane where the trafic is often batting along at 50. I always try to let a big gap open in front of me when there's a Pat breathing down my neck. That way when something silly starts to develop in front you can slow down gently and give the trucker time to stop cooking his or her supper and do likewise.
It's never happened yet but it can as we all know.
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Driving a lorry takes more skill than driving a car in my opinion. I would class a lorry driver more professional than most drivers.
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>>Perhaps he shouldn't have been on that hill.
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I did read one , just one, press report that there was a a width restriction on the hill but the " resrtriction device had been damaged.
Now found some more detailed reports
www.telegraph.co.uk/news/11401597/Four-dead-after-tipper-truck-goes-out-of-control-in-Bath.html
"The lane has a 20 per cent gradient at the top and a width restriction of 6ft on vehicles. "
"Parents speculated that the lorry's breaks had failed "
"there is supposed to be a six-foot width restriction on the lane but they just ignore it.â€
Quite a few folks know the road etc or were there see :-
www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&f=205&t=1483524&mid=0&nmt=Tipper+Truck+incident+in+Bath
"I drove down it about 2 hours earlier. As it happens the width-restriction sign at the top has been flattened by someone earlier. So I guess the tipper driver if not local may not have seen it."
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As Pat said earlier, some facts would be better than guesses.
Quick edit that wasn't meant to be aimed at you HK
Last edited by: commerdriver on Mon 16 Feb 15 at 16:55
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Any width restriction may be subject to an 'except for access' qualification. Don't know how planners in Bath control such things but there are clearly designated and equally clearly barred routes for access to various new developments in this village.
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This is an interesting development
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-31499753
Two men?
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>> Two men?
Who owned and or operated the truck?
The campaign around these things and cyclist deaths in London has attempted to spotlight one or two cowboy companies.
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That will be the driver and the person responsible for the maintenance.
Could be the owner/operator or the contractor (if used) for the maintenance.
Only other possibility would be the weighbridge operator if the load was weighed and allowed on the road overweight but it's very unusual for that to happen.
Pat
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More information from Wales Online
>>A spokesman for Avon and Somerset Police said: "We have this morning arrested two men following the death of four people in Bath last week.
"It follows the incident in Lansdown Lane on Monday evening (February 9) when a tipper truck carrying aggregate was in collision with a number of vehicles and two pedestrians," the spokesman said.
"A 19-year-old man has been arrested on suspicion of causing death by dangerous driving and manslaughter by gross negligence.
"A 28-year-old man has been arrested on suspicion of causing manslaughter by gross negligence.
"Their arrests follow the deaths of four-year-old Mitzi Steady, Robert Parker, Phillip Allan and Stephen Vaughan.
"The girl's grandmother who was also injured in the incident remains in a critical condition in Southmead Hospital."<<
It's not looking good.
Pat
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So it looks like the fitter and the driver. As always the buck stops on the lower rungs. Would be nice to see some managers in the dock sometimes.
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I understand it's a small firm and have only been in business around a year.
The buck does always stop with the lower rung but with the obligation to complete daily walk round checks before starting a days work, it means that as soon as a driver goes onto the road he/she has signed a bit of paper to say that vehicle is safe.
It takes some backbone to refuse to take a vehicle out if there should be a fitter and the owner there telling you 'There's nowt wrong with that', specially when you have little experience of that fault to be sure of your own facts.
Brick wall and a hard place spring to mind but we may well be barking up the wrong tree here yet, who knows?
Pat
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The DM is reporting the driver and company boss arrested.
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I know that hill well, many many years ago as a youth we used to play football up near the racecourse. Also at one time I worked at the MoD site, which is now being flattened for houses. As long as I can remember there has always been a width restriction on that hill, we used to have to take the long route back to Weston village via the centre of Bath to avoid the hill, the mini bus must have been too wide. It's a dangerous hill will steep sections and sharp bends and undulations. In my opinion it is not a particularly suitable road for a HGV, even if the law may be on the side of the truck driver. The official investigation will reveal all no doubt. I don't particularly like driving down that hill in a car, although it's quite good fun on a motorbike :-)
Last edited by: The Melting Snowman on Fri 27 Feb 15 at 20:18
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Glasgow Bin Lorry, Bath Tipper truck. - BiggerBadderDave
