Seeing pictures of pretty expensive Police logo clad cars in the North East these last couple of days makes me wonder.
Why do they buy say a BMW X5 say, when many a good car at half the price will do ?.
This is not a police bashing thread for me it's a simple (?) question of economics.
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It is partly image. The X5s tend to do a lot of high speed motorway work, if you have an X5 chasing after you might give up, if you have a Kia 4X4 chasing you will probably put your foot down and try and get away!.
I know GMP have always been fond of Range Rovers but have a few X5s now.
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I have a feeling we'll be seeing a lot less of that kind of expense in the future, once the public sector cuts start to bite.
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I used to shoot with a Police Business Manager in another life, certainly in those days the discounts the Police were getting had to be seen to be believed. Quantity and maker's image all contribute to a good deal. At one time BMW would offer a deal such as buy five BMW patrol cars and get a bike free. Possibly these days they are leased.
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I would think that the deal is good enough that it works out cheaper than alternatives. BMW get the vehicles visible doing a role and the Police get a capable vehicle that they get a good ROI for. Maybe a cheaper vehicle list price wise is not cheaper. Remember these have to carry a lot of equipment and still be used.
In the past we had big GM's and Ford's that they used but I bet they could not carry all that is needed now safely.... and I know the biggest Ford and GM are Mondeo and Insignia respectively and both are as big as the Granada/Scorpio and Carlton/Senator of past.
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Looked like an ARV to me so it'll have to carry a safe large enough for various weapons, ballistic shields and blankets (bulky) and likely has dual purpose traffic capability so all the usual RTC kit. There are few vehicles that combine these requirements both capably and within manufacturers weight limits when you add 4 crew in some situations. It's also highly unlikely that they paid anywhere near full price for the things.
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I didn't think many bought them anymore. I know the force in my area leases them. They are going from RR to X5s nothing else out there to do the job that they need. RR were always like as when the M62 got bad good in the snow and a very high towing weight. Now too pricey so X5s are bought not as good but good enough. Most estates seem to be a mix of 5 series and volvos.
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If most of the work is patrol type stuff, there's not many better choices than an X5 kicking about. RR's can be made to handle (in relative terms) but they don't come that way out of the box. Easily serviced, much easier than comparable Merc ML(!)
Plus on a non functional point, i prefer that our police aren't a laughing stock. I'd rather they had the right kit (doesn't have to be over the top, but don't scrimp with an estate car when a jeep would be the better fit) than the Lithuanians who commissioned Skoda to make Octavia Vrs lookalikes with 67bhp engines!!
WHY?!?!?!??!?!?!
EDIT: not a typo, 67bhp not 167bhp or anything, just 67bhp
Last edited by: CraigP on Wed 7 Jul 10 at 13:32
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I would imagine that X5s are used on Motorways for patrol work so they don't need to handle that well !
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Hmmm at 65mph, i'd rather my bus could handle :-P At 85mph i just wouldn't do those speeds in something that couldn't change lanes safely.
EDIT: missed a bit... safely, under mild (or above) duress
Last edited by: CraigP on Wed 7 Jul 10 at 13:56
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Any discount will most likely be reflected in the lease cost i.e. BMW will probably give any police discount to the leasing company who can then reduce the lease cost as it's main component is depreciation.
The reason that Volvo / BMW / Jaguar or whoever discount their cars to police is brand image, nothing more than (rather effective) marketing. Whereas seeing your pride and joy as a hire car should leave you feeling cheated as I suspect that these really suppress second hand values (Ford, VW, Fiat, Vauxhall and even Audi/Merc these days).
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Yes, I would have thought that an S-Max at less than half the (list) price could do all that is needed of an X5, and have more room inside to boot.
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What bemuses me is that if X5s are so suitable / essential for motorway patrol work then why aren't they used exclusively?
In Cheshire they have some Vectra estates apparently doing the same job. Of course they have X5s too, and BMW 5 Series estates.
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Those who haven't driven an X5 might be surprised how good they are.
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Cars go through rigourous testing before they are selected for Police work. We've just tried the Insignia for motorway work. The interior trim fell off within a week and the fuel costs were horrendous. The initial cost of the car was only slightly less than the Jag XFs and BMW 5 Series we use. We get massive discounts from manufacturers. The Jags cost us less than 50% of list.
What many who complain about Police 'luxury' vehiclesare unaware of is the through life costs. A Vectra/Mondeo (even a Volvo) is worth pennies after 18 months and 150'000m of hard use. An 18 month old Jag or BMW will still be worth a sizeable sum and so the taxpayer ends up getting a better return after they've been sent to auction.
Frankly, most Officers couldn't give a monkey's uncle what the badge on the front says. We just want a car that does the job safely (a fully loaded car needs to be safe at high speed, many are not) and doesn't break all the time.
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How are the XFs standing up, mlc?
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One new engine, but that appears to be a one off. A few minor niggles, but I think that's down to the fitting of Police spec equipment. They do the job very well and are comfortable, which is important when you're spending 12 intensive hours behind the wheel.
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I remember many years ago when Hampshire (i think) bought BMW 2500/2800's, boy did they get some flack in some papers for not buying British.
I seem to recall them defending their choice quite rigorously though stating their chosen cars could cover 250K with just servicing and only the odd failure...something British makes of the day could never match, so overall costs worked out favourably without taking into account downtime.
Quite obvious the need for capable and quick 4x4's for plod, does winter time work in the X5's favour though.
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>> Cars go through rigourous testing before they are selected for Police work
This might be old news for some folks, and i don't know if it's from part of the selection process MLC mentions but's the summary version of a police assessment of the Skoda range. There's a longer one of the octavia scout at least but i can't find it.
www.skoda.co.uk/pdf/METROPOLITAN_POLICE_SERVICE.pdf
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...Why do they buy say a BMW X5...
There's an element of needing something with a bit of authority and presence.
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>> police assessment
That 50-stop brake test looks to be pretty punishing! A quick Google shows the test to be 50 repetitions of a 0.5G stop from 50mph to zero in neutral - is this done on a brake roller or by driving the car on a test track?
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>> That 50-stop brake test looks to be pretty punishing! A quick Google shows the test
>> to be 50 repetitions of a 0.5G stop from 50mph to zero in neutral -
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Real life situations can still outdo that test though...it's why some police cars had to retrospectively have alloy wheels fitted, to allow more air in to the brakes e.g. Vx Omegas... and Ford Focus estates (dog vans)
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MLC. we're you around when the Police first started using very early Rangerovers?
Late 70's or early 80's I was supplying Leics Police with replacement parts and they had a problem with the leaf springs on them that resulted in rollovers at speed.
It took a lot of research to find an alternative to do the job for them.
Pat
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>> Those who haven't driven an X5 might be surprised how good they are.
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I read somewhere (might have even been from mlc) that most Police Officers don't like driving them much.
I go back to my point though - if a 4WD SUV is so essential, why are they not used exclusively? I can't imagime that in a mixed fleet the control room doesn't call up particular vehicles to respond to incidents - they surely take whatever is available?
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I don't think they are essential but they are handy to have therefore they are not used exclusively. Looking at the current ongoing police incident, they are saying they have brough some armoured vehicles over from NI as they are ideal for the terrain they are dealing with. So in this case, nothing else will do, but in other cases, they won't be needed.
In most cases a standard patrol car will suffice for motorway work but at times the X5 will be better, better presence, more towing ability (of they are still allowed to tow vehicles off the road) etc.
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>> I go back to my point though - if a 4WD SUV is so essential, why are they not used >>exclusively? I can't imagime that in a mixed fleet the control room doesn't call up >>particular vehicles to respond to incidents - they surely take
>> whatever is available?
In a pursuit you'd want out and out perfromance, so not a big 4x4. For towing something heavy you'd want something like a big 4x4. For joyriders over the local fileds, again a 4x4.
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I was once in a situation where floodlights were required urgently. A radio request resulted in a Range Rover towing a diesel powered lighting unit arriving with blue lights and sirens on and certainly doing more than 60mph. Definitely a suitable vehicle for the job, as would an X5 had they been invented.
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a Range Rover towing a diesel powered lighting unit arriving with blue lights and sirens on and certainly doing more than 60mph
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>>>>really?
now that i would like to see
maybe a little slower and it might be still the right way up when it gets there
eh?
60mph plus pah,thankfully todays police employees have a duty of care to people like me walking under motorway bridges that dont want a tonne of generator on their heads..
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So glad I didn't have a boring life selling cans of beans or cars.
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>> In a pursuit you'd want out and out perfromance, so not a big 4x4. For
>> towing something heavy you'd want something like a big 4x4. For joyriders over the local
>> fileds, again a 4x4.
The car that springs to mind for that set of requirements is the Audi A6 Allroad 3.0T.
290 bhp, 0-60 in 6 secs, 155 mph (pursuit)
5 position height adjustable air suspension and AWD (fields)
450NM of torque (towing)
Would be pretty handy in most situations, I would imagine.
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Firstly, I'm certainly not old enough to remember the first Range Rovers :)
We still use RRs (never driven an X5), very good for removing breakdowns and some of the guys swear by them. I personally avoid the 4x4s. Just don't like them and I'm not brave enough or good enough to drive them like some can.
We've also got a few Toyota Landcruisers as well, but they tip over in a breeze.
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there was a discussion on hj about the reasons for traffic enforcements to have the larger 4x4 type vehicles and it was mentioned due to weight capabilities which is obviously a sensible reason when you think about it,plus the need to remove stricken vehicles off our carriageways
so i still think the police have the vehicles suitable for their job and not just to appease the number crunchers
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dont the police also have to spread the money around so not to upset too many factions.
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>> dont the police also have to spread the money around so not to upset too
>> many factions.
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Nope. Best value wins every time.
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I would think when the XF estate appears there will be a lot of them on Police fleets.
I wonder if moving vehicles from the carriageway is less of a reason for police SUVs like an X5 now with the highways agency using 4x4s?
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MLC, you don't cover the M5 do you?
Saw a marked XF on it this morning, thought of you!!!
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Well you went off at the slip road just as I approached and I was trying to work out what kind of car it was and then it clicked!!
On a separate note, why are those bends on the M5 as you approach the M6 all signed as 50mph and warnings? Carrying the bikes on my roof as I was, I paid particular attention to these but nearly caused an accident with everyone else racing past at speeds of 70+ with no problem.
I am sure they are nbo tighter a bend than many others I have seen on motorways with no warnings? Is there a history here?
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>> On a separate note, why are those bends on the M5 as you approach the
>> M6 all signed as 50mph and warnings?
Could they be there in the hope that drivers will slow down when it is wet or slippery?
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The bends between J2-1 on the M5 are particularly nasty. The road surface is poor, with expansion joints. They might seem ok at 60-70, but in the wet (or at speed) they can induce a 'sixpence-half crown' moment.
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Police BMW X5 - RattleandSmoke
