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Does anyone have any experience of the VW Group DSG auto box with flappy paddles? Reliability and longevity for instance....just wondering because......
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7 speed dry clutch or 6 speed wet clutch?
The 7 speed is in the less torquey engines like the 1.2 TFSI and 1.4TFSI.
I can't comment because I've done only 2500 miles or so in a 1.4TFSI DSG 7 speed dry clutch. Next time I choose car, DSG might be chosen again. And no BIK charge for diesels either.
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6 speed wet clutch.....
Probably not as good as the BMW 8 speed auto which gets very favourable reviews. Although again, I have no idea of its reliability.
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I'lll report back in October 2017 about this DSG 1.4T car I guess. No idea what I'd get next but I like the auto type DSG without there being a BIK penalty.
Maybe the sums work out for the future Passat GTE. Who knows. I'd not plug it in but overall costs might be low.
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Dunno in truth, but what I can tell you is that we have a 2012 Golf on the company fleet with a DSG box which broke at 16,000, was repaired under warranty and seems ok now...We also had a DSG equipped Passat on which the gearbox failed but at a much higher mileage. We'd be reluctant to have any more DSG cars until the apparent reliability problems are definitely resolved. Contrarily, a powershift Mondeo we sold recently at 130,000 was never a problem.
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Keep hearing lots of stories about the dsg box reliability, but not seen anything statistical to show there is a problem.
My only experience was of a 6 speed dsg in a sharan on hire for a couple of weeks. I liked it and thought it performed very well, but I have also driven a 1 series with the ZF 8 speed unit and that was a fantastic piece of kit.
The ZF box is in various applications, but I've not heard any grumbles about reliability
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My pal really likes the 8 speed Autobox in his 235i. Which is why I am having reservations about the Audi/VW DSG. Never having owned an auto, maybe it's the future. But then again, if I keep it for6 years +, like my 330, it will be long out of warranty.
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If you're looking at a GTi, it's got to be manual hasn't it? Sort of the law really. Not for wafting those. Can't have tartan seats and an auto. What's more, I think you only get the golf ball on top of the gearstick on the manual, wouldn't be right without one of those. No brainer to be honest. Like I said, we've no empirical evidence for or against DSGs but 100% ( both ) of the cars we've had with them had faulty gearboxes...your call of course...
;-)
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I had a manual Golf GTI 1.8T in 1999 followed by a manual Passat 1.8T Sport in 2000. Both manual gearboxes. Both had replacement gearboxes in a few weeks. Actually the Passat should have only had to turbo replaced.
I'm not sure I'd go for a dual clutch car as a private second hand buy. And if it's wear and tear then the warranty soon won't cover it.
Handbook for my DSG/S-Tronic said always hold it at standstill on the brakes, i.e. don't let the clutch slip. Same reason why you shouldn't do that in a manual. But I wonder if the clutches heat up much quicker.
It would be interesting to know whether the Golf and Passat had the 7-speed dry clutch or 6-speed wet clutch. If they were diesels or petrol above 250Nm torque, they'd be 6-speed wet clutch.
I know these dual clutch boxes are popular with manufacturers to get down emissions. VW will have a 10 speed DSG soon. But BMW and Mercedes keep emissions low with TC gearboxes. Is a DSG cheaper? Lighter?
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Both 2.0 diesels but wouldn't like to say which version.
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Her indoors wanted to buy a VW auto, which meant a DSG box. I told her only when hell froze over. Fine if the car is under warranty, not a thing to own when you are paying.
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>> Both 2.0 diesels but wouldn't like to say which version.
So wet clutch 6-speed then.
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Hmmm,...the more I read into the trouble free longevity of DSGs the more I think I should avoid them. OK if the vehicle is always under warranty. My 330 was bought at either 3 or 4 yo, privately, obviously out of warranty. Hasn't missed a beat in my 6 years of ownership. The way I feel at the moment is that if I plumped for a 135i, or 330 estate, bought privately of course, I would go for the 8 speed auto. Anything from the Audi/VW camp would be a manual.
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No car is perfect but I do wonder if the DSG fears are exaggerated? VW have been selling them for over 10 years now, and if they were that bad, surely they would be shunned in the trade? I don't think that's happening, is it?
We had a Golf TDI that did 120,000 with no problems, a Passat estate that did 25,000 trouble-free miles, and my Transporter has been fine so far (again, 25,000 miles so far).
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>> No car is perfect but I do wonder if the DSG fears are exaggerated? VW
>> have been selling them for over 10 years now, and if they were that bad,
>> surely they would be shunned in the trade? I don't think that's happening, is it?
First introduced in 2003, since 2009 over 2 million vehicles around the world have been recalled ( 6 and 7 speed boxes) for various issues.
there are reports that they suffer a 5% failure rate.
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>> No car is perfect but I do wonder if the DSG fears are exaggerated? VW
>> have been selling them for over 10 years now, and if they were that bad,
>> surely they would be shunned in the trade? I don't think that's happening, is it?
>>
To a certain extent, it's the old story that you only hear about the problems, and the satisfied owners don't shout as loudly. It's a good point you make about the trade, they soon identify cars with known problems and price them accordingly.
I can say, and there's a bit of wood-touching going on here, that the TC auto box in my Saab 9-5 Aero seems absolutely fine after 10 years and 221,000 miles. I change the oil more frequently than Saab recommend (75k instead of 90k), so it's just coming up to its third change. And it's still clean and bright.
Still leaning towards a TC auto in my next car though, whatever it is, just in case you know.....
Last edited by: Mike H on Fri 23 Jan 15 at 10:58
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Had mine since 2006 without any issues (6 speed), make sure it has had it's oil/filter change every 40K.
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A work colleague is having lots of issues with the DSG in his 2014 CC TDI 177PS. There is an intermittent problem when it down-shifts to accelerate, such as for an overtake. The 'box selects Neutral and all drive disappears. Lift the throttle, wait, reapply, and it recovers and is fine again. Until the next time.
To my mind it sounds like a software bug rather than a mechanical fault, but the dealers have had it back several times and cannot find a fault as it's not logging a code.
As Rudedog says, the 40k oil/filter change is critical. Dealers also don't necessarily do this without being prompted. A friend took his DSG A3 in for a service at 40k and had to take it back to get the DSG service done. It wasn't picked up automatically.
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If my dual clutch Audi had such problems I'd soon be dumping it at the dealers and getting a hire car until fixed. It's fine so far but only done just over 2500 miles since early October 2014.
I do wonder if some of the issues are maintenance or driver abuse. I have no evidence but when I looked at the service display a few days ago the first oil change is due at around 19000 miles (approx) and in 565 days. The first proper inspection is due about 500 miles later and about 630 days from now (so at 2 years).*
At this rate I will again get one service and one oil change for the car over 3 years. If it was mine oil changes would be yearly. And when my Passat CC was close to going back I got a call from the VW garage about a brake fluid change that was due. I explained it was a lease car and was going back soon they said the lease companies usually didn't bother.... So cars go to auction and should have had a brake fluid change by then....
I still think this Passat CC is sat somewhere unsold. It does not show as insured.
* Suggests the two timings have diverged and it might need doing sooner still for oil change. No doubt they normally coincide.
Last edited by: rtj70 on Fri 23 Jan 15 at 17:48
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Modern maintenance schedules are incredible. The 320d will go back in 6 weeks with about 54k on it. It will have had two oil changes from new. The A4 Multitronic I took through Europe in summer had 16k on it when I started, and had never been serviced. It was still 1000 off when I returned.
Apart from possibly towing something too heavy, I can't see how you can abuse a modern electronically controlled automatic transmission. The gear selectors are electronic switches and can be overruled by the ECU if it deems you are doing something silly. Likewise fluid temperatures and other parameters are continuously monitored and the transmission will protect itself if any damaging conditions arise. I think the DSG is just a bit flaky, personally. Most are OK but a lot aren't. Seems to be pot luck.
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Been away 'hooning' a ute around dirt roads, nice to drive a manual and pretend I'm a rally driver but....
I have experience of both manual and DSG Golf VIs - a 122TSi manual in the UK then a 160TSi (118TSi in KWs) with the DQ200 DSG in Australia.
I liked both cars but I have to be honest, there is NO WAY I would ever be persuaded to buy another car with the DQ200 Dry Clutch DSG. I might however consider a wet clutch derivative, but then again maybe I wouldn't.
IMHO the DSG actually drives rather nicely in many circumstances, the gear changes are very quick and generally smooth, however (at least with the DQ200) they can be jerky under some conditions.
The DQ200 had the well documented oil change and electrical corrosion problem, interestingly my (2012 built) late model VI had mineral oil so was not subject to recall, however later (possibly 2012 built VIIs) had synthetic oil and required the recall/change.
Similarly my 2012 built car had the supposedly modified clutches, however that didn't prevent it requiring the clutch packs to be replaced at 9000 miles as they had warped. The challenge for this 'box is heat and if you buy an auto (DSG) to ease your urban/commute/stop-start motoring then you might be disappointed. It is also at low speeds that the DQ200 is often jerky and most obviously different to a TC auto.
So, there you have it - an 'auto' (DSG) that is nice to drive on the open road but flawed around town.
What I would say is that both TSi engines (the 122 and the 160) were crackers, the twin-charger (also reputedly a ticking reliability bomb) was really very nice to drive and fairly economical.
I like Golfs, in many circumstances I liked the DSG but the reputational damage in Aus harmed VW residuals and I paid the price, I might be bitter ? VAG won't get my money for a while that's for sure.
Last edited by: idle_chatterer on Tue 27 Jan 15 at 10:52
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>> there is NO WAY I
>> would ever be persuaded to buy another car with the DQ200 Dry Clutch DSG.
>> Similarly my 2012 built car had the supposedly modified clutches, however that didn't prevent it
>> requiring the clutch packs to be replaced at 9000 miles as they had warped. The
>> challenge for this 'box is heat
I agree - it's pretty clear from the little you can glean from the manual. They tell you NOT to hold the car on the accelerator, and that there is an 'overheat' light for the gearbox, which will also limit its functions, or something like that, if it overheats.
It's also obvious to me that a lot of people with these will have driven TC autos, be absolutely uninterested in technical features, and will treat the DSG just the same. That is potentially destructive because if what they are in the habit of is holding the car on the accelerator (or what little 'creep' there is) will clearly heat up the clutches, and the surrounding components.
Our second car is a Skoda with the 105PS turbo petrol (1.2TDI) and the DQ200. It's fine to drive when you have an idea of how it works - from rest, coming off the brake on to the accelerator it is best not to hurry it as it has to bring the clutch to the bite point - rushing it just means setting off with a lurch.
I reasoned that if it is used considerately then then will be significantly less chance of its being a problem.
Incidentally, my daughter and her husband have an A6 3.0 diesel with DSG (presumably a wet clutch one as it has mega torque and about 270bhp). It seem no better at fine manoeuvring than than our Skoda, especially on a slope - if you want to creep forward a foot or so, there's no creep, and you gingerly press the accelerator until it lunges forward about 18"! That is the sort of thing you should try out if you test drive one. Just wafting around it's fine, but it would be unfortunate to buy one and find you can't live with the flaws.
Last edited by: Manatee on Tue 27 Jan 15 at 14:20
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>> It seem no better at fine manoeuvring than than our Skoda, especially on a slope - if you want
>> to creep forward a foot or so, there's no creep, and you gingerly press the accelerator until it
>> lunges forward about 18"
Sounds like auto hill hold to me. I had it on the Passat CC. And didn't like lake of creep in the DSG I demoed. Later I figured out why there was no creep when trying to park it carefully.
If it hill hold there will be a button, probably next to the electronic hand brake switch, and it will be turned on by default. Turn it off and it will no longer hold the brakes when you come to a stop.
When disengaged it also won't auto apply the EPB when you take your seatbelt off or stop the car.
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>>
>> It's also obvious to me that a lot of people with these will have driven
>> TC autos, be absolutely uninterested in technical features, and will treat the DSG just the
>> same. That is potentially destructive because if what they are in the habit of is
>> holding the car on the accelerator (or what little 'creep' there is) will clearly heat
>> up the clutches, and the surrounding components.
>>
I'd contend that we didn't drive ours like a TC auto, moreover when you hold it on the foot brake the DSG shifts into neutral anyhow, you can creep like a TC auto but I don't think we did that. However ours still started to judder at 9000 miles. As I understand it, the ECU programming shifts very quickly into 2nd - a bit like dumping the clutch in a manual with all the stress that might be imagined to cause. All in the name of that extra 0.1% lower CO2 emission (irrelevant outside the EU).
When working properly I'd imagine that the wet and dry clutch derivatives behave very similarly. ECU programming has certainly improved as the DSG 'boxes have developed such that my only real concern regarding longevity would be with the DQ200 dry clutch derivative, other foibles would likely be common to all DSGs perhaps ?
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You are right about the change to second. I'd forgotten that I drive around that in certain circumstances, mainly in traffic jams. I move the lever over and knock it into first. From a driving point of view I don't need to, but I see that repeated unnecessary change in my minds eye and instinctively want to avoid it in stop start queues.
We've decided to keep it at least while it's under warranty, then I'll think about it. I probably wouldn't buy another.
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>> We've decided to keep it at least while it's under warranty, then I'll think about
>> it. I probably wouldn't buy another.
>>
Probably the best idea, over in Australia the DSG is now warranted for 5 years but residuals have tanked and I suspect that the MK7 will suffer as people realise the widespread fitment of the DQ200. At 2 years old I probably got back half what I might have 'expected' from the research I undertook when I bought our MK6 in 2012. We needed a bigger car with higher ground clearance and 4WD so I took the hit but I appreciate others would likely be less fortunate.
That's why VAG won't be getting my money for a while - if ever again.
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>> Similarly my 2012 built car had the supposedly modified clutches, however that didn't prevent it
>> requiring the clutch packs to be replaced at 9000 miles as they had warped. The
>> challenge for this 'box is heat and if you buy an auto (DSG) to ease
>> your urban/commute/stop-start motoring then you might be disappointed. It is also at low speeds that
>> the DQ200 is often jerky and most obviously different to a TC auto.
>>
>> So, there you have it - an 'auto' (DSG) that is nice to drive on
>> the open road but flawed around town.
Sums up my experiences/feelings to a T.
I want an auto because pumping a clutch 500 times on a 20 mile commute on roads running beyond design capacity is irritating. If I commuted on open, free flowing roads, I'd choose to stick with a manual.
I think it's a shame VW don't offer the DSG transmission alongside a T/C auto, as the DSG doesn't cope very well with the kind of use that a lot of people choose an "automatic" transmission for.
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>>
>> I think it's a shame VW don't offer the DSG transmission alongside a T/C auto,
>> as the DSG doesn't cope very well with the kind of use that a lot
>> of people choose an "automatic" transmission for.
>>
As I understand it VW do offer the Golf with a 1.8TSi and 'proper' torque-converter auto in the US. That strikes me as potentially a rather nice engine/gearbox combination. I'll bet the real-world fuel consumption is reasonable although it'll fall short of the optimal CO2 figures attainable by (over)blowing a 1.4L and fitting an (overheating) dry clutch DSG..... IMHO of course. Pity they don't sell that derivative in Australia, you can get the engine in a Skoda Octavia over here but the 'box is the DQ200.
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That's a hell of a commute. Assuming that the 20 miles takes 2 hours then you are changing gear around four times a minute. Even more th an Rattle achieves.
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>> That's a hell of a commute. Assuming that the 20 miles takes 2 hours then
>> you are changing gear around four times a minute. Even more th an Rattle achieves.
I know DPs route, and 500 gear changes is not unreasonable. He probably does 400 of those on the M3 from J3 to J2
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Sounds horrendous. Mind you some of Norfolk's dual carriageways can be pretty bad.
www.trucknetuk.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=33738
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>> I know DPs route, and 500 gear changes is not unreasonable. He probably does 400
>> of those on the M3 from J3 to J2
>>
Between 4a and 4, to J3, but yes it's pretty much that bad.
Currently experimenting with flexitime. Leaving the house at 6:30 and going straight up the A30 to Bagshot, then across through Windlesham around the lanes. Usually in the office just after 7. Hoping to make this a permanent arrangement.
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>> I'lll report back in October 2017 about this DSG 1.4T car I guess. No idea
>> what I'd get next but I like the auto type DSG without there being a
>> BIK penalty.
>>
>> Maybe the sums work out for the future Passat GTE. Who knows. I'd not plug
>> it in but overall costs might be low.
>>
wow where you in a dolorean, with time advancce and retard gearing ?
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Thanks for the feedback and personal experiences of the DSG. After trawling various forums, I seem to have reached the conclusion that owning a DSG car out of warranty, and hoping that it will be trouble free over several years, is a gamble I am not prepared to take. OTOH, should I go down the BMW route, then the 8 speed auto seems far more reliable, and I could be seriously tempted by it.
My only decision now is whether to hold onto the 330 until Spring, when prices 'should' firm up a little, or try to find a suitable vehicle during the slower month of January. Two, very reasonable offers IMHO, have so far been declined, and the older I get the less inclined I am to compromise on specification of said vehicles.
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If I had your bread legacy I'd just get a nice V8 Lexus, capable, athletic and surprisingly frugal if pussyfooted, and have done with it.
I mean, I'm a technophile too but why eat your heart out over DSG unless of course you've already taken the plunge and are committed? Seems unnecessary to a simple fellow like me.
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Trouble is yer sea, I need something practical. I have just got fed up with forever attaching the trailer t' 330. I did consider briefly, very briefly, one of those Lexus 4x4 things. Not my style. And the ancients, whom I have to ferry around on occasion could not get into it. My old Mum used to complain long n loud about the stepstool to get into my Transporters. Ungrateful so and do.,So it has to be a 5 door hatch or estate.
My ex ex bought a Lexus Sportcross several years ago on my recommendation. She still loves it to bits. Every panel has a scrape or dent, and it's like a skip inside more often than not, and whenever I drove it you had to rag the a***nal off it to get it to go, but lovely build quality.
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Presumably you've discounted the idea of living up to your nom de clavier and going back to a Subaru?
if so, then a BMW 3 or 5 series Touring beckons surely?
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I simply cannot envisage myself ever owning a Subaru again. The two estates I owned, bought off friends, were three yo, plenty of miles on the clock, and great work horses from a business point of view. Think the most I paid was £3k, then sold after a few years for £1700. Ultra reliable but those days are gone. The 330 has spoilt me. Ideally I could go with a 330 estate, but given I do not drive short runs in my very limited annual mileage, a 330d should be ok, which are far more plentiful. An M135i would be just about large enough, but would suffer horrendous depreciation I fear, even bought privately a few years old.
But would be more FUN.
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Volkswagen Golf VI - Manual vs DSG - rtj70
