Motoring Discussion > HGV secondary brakes.	Miscellaneous
Thread Author: Old Navy	Replies: 46

New Tue 23 Dec 14 20:40   HGV secondary brakes. - Old Navy

HGVs are fitted with a secondary braking system which is operated by a lever on the steering column (in my day anyway). Someone in the media has latched onto this and called it a "dead mans handle" when reporting on the Glasgow bin lorry tragedy. They questioned whether the two crew members in the cab had been trained to use it. I doubt if a non HGV qualified driver would even know it existed, did any of you guys and girls? Reply to this message | Report message

New Tue 23 Dec 14 20:51   HGV secondary brakes. - Robin O'Reliant

Heard the term years back, I never quite knew what it meant and wouldn't even think of looking. Especially if my trousers were in the process of turning a rich shade of brown, the only handle I'd be thinking of is the door handle. Reply to this message | Report message       1

New Tue 23 Dec 14 21:51   HGV secondary brakes. - Harleyman

Not in my experience they don't. They have a footbrake and a handbrake just like a car. The lorry in that accident looks like a DAF CF to me; in which case the handbrake lever would be on the dashboard to the driver's left; air-operated of course and if you do hit it, it would bring the vehicle to a very smart stop indeed and probably would have catapulted the crew into the windscreen. It would probably have automatic transmission, virtually all purpose-built dustcarts do today; and yes they can accelerate pretty smartly. Worth pointing out that the crew tend to sit behind the driver on a bench seat, probably out of reach of the controls; also that it's quite possible, as you say, that none of them could drive themselves and therefore may not have known what to do. Reply to this message | Report message

New Tue 23 Dec 14 22:12   HGV secondary brakes. - Rick O'Shea

Endurance brakes or exhaust brakes, maybe electric retarder mainly fitted to coaches. Reply to this message | Report message

New Tue 23 Dec 14 22:17   HGV secondary brakes. - Harleyman

>> Endurance brakes or exhaust brakes, maybe electric retarder mainly fitted to coaches. >> They, as you're probably aware, wouldn't have stopped the lorry; in fact in urban driving I doubt they'd have had any effect at all. In any case the exhaust brake on a CF is on a stalk on the steering column, and the crew wouldn't have been able to get to it as the driver was in the way. Reply to this message | Report message

New Tue 23 Dec 14 22:35   HGV secondary brakes. - rtj70

No doubt many will now say the crew should have had a way to stop the vehicle. Maybe they should on future designs. But how often has this happened? If it was an automatic car it could have been nearly as bad. Maybe lampposts would have stopped it sooner but a car could have got up to much higher speeds. Reply to this message | Report message

New Tue 23 Dec 14 22:52   HGV secondary brakes. - Ted

I'm sure I remember a secondary, emergency brake on the Leyland Beaver I passed my test on in about 1971. ISTR it was a small lever painted red which fired up the air brakes. The instructor referred to it as the Dead Man's Handle although, it wasn't, strictly, as you didn't have to keep hold of it as with the dead man's pedal or handle on a train. Reply to this message | Report message

New Tue 23 Dec 14 23:07   HGV secondary brakes. - Harleyman

>> No doubt many will now say the crew should have had a way to stop >> the vehicle. Maybe they should on future designs. But how often has this happened? Precisely. It could just as easily have been a delivery lorry, with only the driver on board. I wouldn't even consider it on a future design. Only the driver should be able to access the controls; otherwise there is too much risk of someone either accidentally or even deliberately (in the case of an argument) hitting the "dead man" and causing an accident. Imagine somebody doing that at 50 mph on a dual carriageway? Carnage would result. Too easy for the uneducated, for want of a better word, to equate the matter with trains, where such a device is available. Trains however work in an environment which is effectively separated from pedestrians and other steerable vehicles, lorries and cars don't. I do however predict that this accident, for all the wrong reasons, will bring renewed calls for lorries to be kept out of urban environments. Last edited by: Harleyman on Tue 23 Dec 14 at 23:08 Reply to this message | Report message

New Tue 23 Dec 14 23:34   HGV secondary brakes. - rtj70

>> I do however predict that this accident, for all the wrong reasons, will bring renewed calls for >> lorries to be kept out of urban environments. I hope not. If councils did that who would collect our refuse! Reply to this message | Report message

New Wed 24 Dec 14 00:05   HGV secondary brakes. - BobbyG

I would imagine a normal bus would do the same damage as that lorry did. Reply to this message | Report message

New Wed 24 Dec 14 01:57   HGV secondary brakes. - Pat

I agree with HM's replies and the crew seat is right at the back of a very deep cab, making it difficult to reach, even supposing they knew what to look for. There are so many inaccuracies being reported in the media at the moment ( lorry doing over 60MPH, it's limited to 56MPH just like all of us), that it's hard to speculate on what happened. Little information is being given about the driver. which again, is causing speculation. If, as reported by some, he did have a heart attack he will never be able to forgive himself and will find it difficult to ever get back to 'normal' again. He will be local too, and some people always have to find someone to blame. In grief that's understandable, but when your already blaming yourself for something you had no control over, it won't help. ....If it was a heart attack, of course. Pat Reply to this message | Report message

New Wed 24 Dec 14 08:51   HGV secondary brakes. - BobbyG

I am pretty sure if the lorry was doing those speeds, there would have been a lot more structural damage to the hotel where it eventually stopped. Was listening to an "expert" on the radio yesterday and he was talking how crucial it was that the police got to speak to witnesses immediately because very quickly they start to convince themselves of things that happened and they base this purely on what others have said. This was evident in some of the eye witness interviews on the radio where you could almost sense that the words they were using didn't correlate to what they actually saw, dropping in things like "someone said, apparently" etc but saying it all as a first hand witness. Reply to this message | Report message

New Wed 24 Dec 14 09:42   HGV secondary brakes. - henry k

>> quickly they start to convince themselves of things that happened.. >> I have done exactly that without any input from others. Many moons ago, when waiting for a bus, there was the sound of an impact a few feet in front of me. I was at that time looking in another direction but the noise immediately got my attention. I concluded that a car had rear ended another car and the passenger had been thrown through the windscreen. Other witnesses informed me that a pedestrian running across the road had been hit, went across the bonnet, smashed the windscreen ( old type glass ) and the bit I had seen was him rolling off the bonnet. I had guessed another car was involved so as to make sense of my conclusions. Reply to this message | Report message

New Wed 24 Dec 14 12:55   HGV secondary brakes. - No FM2R

>>Was listening to an "expert" on the radio yesterday and he was talking how crucial it was that the police got to speak to witnesses immediately because very quickly they start to convince themselves of things that happened and they base this purely on what others have said. When I had my accident there was one woman who thought, and said, that I had jumped the light. By the time that several other witnesses had spoken to her she was absolutely adamant that the other driver had jumped the light. If she had been the only witness present I would have been in more trouble than you can imagine. It was fortunate that the other witnesses existed and were numerous, and that the Accident Investigators were efficient. I have no doubt that 4 or 5 people on television being interviewed stating how the other driver was entirely at fault and how my actions after the accident helped people ultimately contributed a lot. Very worrying. I make it a habit to not automatically believe witnesses now. Reply to this message | Report message

New Wed 24 Dec 14 13:17   HGV secondary brakes. - Robin O'Reliant

I think I must have missed the conclusion to that incident Mark, I take it things turned out well for you in the end? Reply to this message | Report message

New Wed 24 Dec 14 15:20   HGV secondary brakes. - No FM2R

>> I take it things turned out well for you in the end? Well, the process continues but her guilt is now assumed. She is negotiating. I am out of the process, so that is good news for me. The two poor ladies who lost legs have also lost their jobs, and as yet have no money. I have discretely helped a little. Reply to this message | Report message

New Wed 24 Dec 14 16:15   HGV secondary brakes. - Bromptonaut

As I understand it some artics have (or had) a seperate control on the steering column which operates only the trailer's brakes. Mrs B's cousin certainly had such a thing when he showed us his Scania(?) twenty or more years ago. He claimed that as an owner/driver he made full use as he didn't pay for trailer's tyres (Nick tells a tale well.......). The 'dead man's handle' on a train though is intended to ensure driver is sentient and apply brakes if either a handle is not help positively upwards or driver does not respond to a prompt by operating a button or pedal. Reply to this message | Report message

New Wed 24 Dec 14 16:19   HGV secondary brakes. - Pat

He would have been talking about either the exhaust brake or a jake brake but there is no way the crew members could be expected to know which lever/ what it did in this case. Expect calls for crew to be trained for emergencies now, but absolutely OTT reaction. Sorry Beef is ready to calve! Pat Reply to this message | Report message

New Wed 24 Dec 14 18:19   HGV secondary brakes. - Harleyman

>> Sorry Beef is ready to calve! >> Veal on the menu then Pat? ;-) Last edited by: Harleyman on Wed 24 Dec 14 at 18:22 Reply to this message | Report message

New Wed 24 Dec 14 19:03   HGV secondary brakes. - Manatee

>> >> Sorry Beef is ready to calve! >> >> >> >> >> Veal on the menu then Pat? ;-) I've got deja vu (again) - didn't the beef calve last year as well? Is that why you keep having it Pat? Reply to this message | Report message

New Wed 24 Dec 14 16:19   HGV secondary brakes. - Pat

He would have been talking about either the exhaust brake or a jake brake but there is no way the crew members could be expected to know which lever/ what it did in this case. Expect calls for crew to be trained for emergencies now, but absolutely OTT reaction. Sorry Beef is ready to carve! Pat Last edited by: Pat on Wed 24 Dec 14 at 16:19 Reply to this message | Report message

New Wed 24 Dec 14 16:27   HGV secondary brakes. - Zero

>> Sorry Beef is ready to carve! yeah, fire up that chainsaw Reply to this message | Report message       1

New Wed 24 Dec 14 16:42   HGV secondary brakes. - Skip

>> >> >> Sorry Beef is ready to carve! >> >> yeah, fire up that chainsaw >> The microwave has just gone "ping" ? Reply to this message | Report message

New Wed 24 Dec 14 17:32   HGV secondary brakes. - bathtub tom

>> The microwave has just gone "ping" ? www.ocado.com/productImages/200/200456011_0_640x640.jpg?identifier=623e5c70c57422b4050d9dd45e9f36f3 Reply to this message | Report message

New Wed 24 Dec 14 18:55   HGV secondary brakes. - Bill Payer

>> Expect calls for crew to be trained for emergencies now, but absolutely OTT reaction. >> Didn't the crew abandon ship anyway? Reply to this message | Report message

New Wed 24 Dec 14 19:08   HGV secondary brakes. - rtj70

>> Didn't the crew abandon ship anyway? I thought they did when it eventually stopped. Reply to this message | Report message

New Wed 24 Dec 14 22:48   HGV secondary brakes. - BobbyG

Would the bin lorry have a tacho? If so this would put to bed the various theories on its speed? Reply to this message | Report message

New Wed 24 Dec 14 22:54   HGV secondary brakes. - Zero

>> Would the bin lorry have a tacho? If so this would put to bed the >> various theories on its speed? What they planning to do, charge the incapacitated driver with speeding? Wouldn't surprise me there is no such thing as a road traffic accident anymore Reply to this message | Report message

New Wed 24 Dec 14 23:11   HGV secondary brakes. - Armel Coussine

>> Would the bin lorry have a tacho? If so this would put to bed the various theories on its speed? I haven't seen any. Speed doesn't seem to be the issue, the issue is relentless progress for nearly 300 yards scraping the fronts of the buildings. Some people managed to get out of the way, others didn't poor souls. I would expect the instinct of a driver suddenly taken ill would be to slow or stop, untidily perhaps but somehow. I won't hold my breath waiting for an intelligible theory on this incident. All sorts of entrenched interests are involved peripherally. Muddy waters. Reply to this message | Report message

New Wed 24 Dec 14 23:25   HGV secondary brakes. - Lygonos

If the driver took a seizure he'd likely stiffen and floor the pedal. If his heart stopped he'd be unconscious within 4 seconds or so. My assumption, purely on the basis that he didn't slow down is that one of these 2 events occurred. Reply to this message | Report message

New Wed 24 Dec 14 23:59   HGV secondary brakes. - Armel Coussine

Well, that's intelligible Lygonos, I was wrong. But one can't underestimate the delaying and fudging ability of those entrusted with official reports. What's a seizure exactly? Is it a term that covers several similar types of event? What it suggests to me is epilepsy, whose fits do involve a sort of tensing and clenching of the body, face etc, causing violent tremors and distressing to witness when you are a child (but by accounts often completely unnoticed by the sufferer who is effectively unconscious). There was a boy in my class and a teacher when I was 8 or 10, who scared the bejasus out of people by having fits. Reply to this message | Report message

New Thu 25 Dec 14 00:22   HGV secondary brakes. - Bromptonaut

>> If the driver took a seizure he'd likely stiffen and floor the pedal. >> >> If his heart stopped he'd be unconscious within 4 seconds or so. >> >> My assumption, purely on the basis that he didn't slow down is that one of >> these 2 events occurred. And I'd suspect the investigators have come to same conclusion. But liability being what it is they'll be waiting until they're (a) 110% sure and (b) exact mode of disclosure has been approved before going public. Reply to this message | Report message

New Thu 25 Dec 14 00:53   HGV secondary brakes. - rtj70

>> There was a boy in my class and a teacher when I was 8 or 10, who scared the bejasus out of people by having fits. And in your world the child stopped having fits because he was not a child later in life? You post some stupid posts don't you AC/Lud. Who knows if this was anything like a fit, stroke, heart attack,... Reply to this message | Report message

New Thu 25 Dec 14 01:03   HGV secondary brakes. - Armel Coussine

>> You post some stupid posts don't you AC/Lud. You're the idiot my friend. 'My world' is the real world. I didn't mention the boy in later life. Who knows though rtj, perhaps some cure or treatment worked? They do sometimes. But I said nothing about that, and your post struck me as spiteful and yes, deeply stupid. If you have some reason to be emotional about epilepsy, say what it is. If you haven't, STFU, OK? Reply to this message | Report message       4

New Thu 25 Dec 14 08:40   HGV secondary brakes. - Manatee

Goodwill to all men will now resume I hope. No doubt drink had been taken, it has that effect on some people. Reply to this message | Report message

New Fri 26 Dec 14 21:01   HGV secondary brakes. - Armel Coussine

>> Goodwill to all men will now resume I hope. Yeah, OK, STFU is a bit rude. 'Pipe down with the 'your world' stuff' would be politer. But it's annoying to say the least to be misquoted and then scolded sanctimoniously on the strength of it. Doubtless rtj regrets his bit of excess, as I regret mine. Too trivial to need a formal apology either way though. Reply to this message | Report message       1

New Thu 25 Dec 14 02:22   HGV secondary brakes. - Bromptonaut

>> And in your world the child stopped having fits because he was not a child >> later in life? >> Nothing A posted implied that. I had a 23yr ozzie lad old frighten the bejasus out of me by having a diabetic fit in the office kitchenette. Fortunately, Michelle the first aider clocked his problem immediately and sorted him out with a glass of milk. Reply to this message | Report message       1

New Thu 25 Dec 14 03:29   HGV secondary brakes. - Pat

They are exempt from needing a tacho BobbyG. Pat Reply to this message | Report message

New Thu 25 Dec 14 08:56   HGV secondary brakes. - Simon

>> They are exempt from needing a tacho Yes, but if the vehicle is fitted with a digital tacho the device still records the same whether a smartcard is inserted or not. Reply to this message | Report message

New Thu 25 Dec 14 10:44   HGV secondary brakes. - Harleyman

I would suspect that on a vehicle like this, CCTV cameras (if fitted) may provide better evidence than a tachograph would. Reply to this message | Report message

New Thu 25 Dec 14 17:45   HGV secondary brakes. - Pat

Indeed it would Simon but I would imagine they are specced to be supplied without tacho's to save money and falling foul of some of the spurious rules about having to be 'used and calibrated etc. if they are fitted'. Manatee, all went very well, my Daughter in Law cooked:) Pat Reply to this message | Report message

New Fri 26 Dec 14 09:05   HGV secondary brakes. - Simon

>> Indeed it would Simon but I would imagine they are specced to be supplied without >> tacho's to save money and falling foul of some of the spurious rules about having >> to be 'used and calibrated etc. if they are fitted'. They still have a tachograph fitted irrespective of what the vehicle is or is intended to become. Reply to this message | Report message

New Fri 26 Dec 14 09:13   HGV secondary brakes. - Pat

....Errr, no they don't. How many times have you seen a tacho in a Fire Engine? Pat Reply to this message | Report message       1

New Fri 26 Dec 14 09:50   HGV secondary brakes. - Zero

>> ....Errr, no they don't. >> >> How many times have you seen a tacho in a Fire Engine? >> >> Pat Often. My cousin was a fire engine driver in Peterborough, there were Tachos, crisps, nuts, quavers, jelly babies, Ritz crackers, loads of stuff. He was a right porker my cousin. Reply to this message | Report message       1

New Thu 25 Dec 14 11:10   HGV secondary brakes. - Manatee

>>Sorry Beef is ready to carve! Found last year's saga - I hope you are having a less stressful time this year Pat, even if last year's turned out well. Merry Christmas :) www.car4play.com/forum/post/index.htm?t=16019&v=f Reply to this message | Report message

New Thu 25 Dec 14 20:18   HGV secondary brakes. - Shiny

Don't all new trucks from January 2015 have to be fitted with automatic AEBS to avoid such collisions or did I dream it? EDIT** Found it, yes from November 1st 2015 en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collision_avoidance_system Reply to this message | Report message

New Thu 25 Dec 14 22:56   HGV secondary brakes. - Harleyman

I'm not convinced that such a system would have been effective in this kind of relatively low-speed situation. Reply to this message | Report message