It seems someone told the truth about budget cuts.
tinyurl.com/oxctr64
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Brilliant ! Visions of the driver hanging his head out of the window shouting "Nee Naw Nee Naw Nee Naw..."
;-)
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I am surprised at this, GMP on the other hand are blaming everything on the cut backs, but to be fair they have had to loose a huge number of officers.
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A story that seems to be blown out of all proportion. It was a PCSO who jumped on the bus, none of the regulars probably wanted him in their car.
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A PCSO was on foot patrol, as he should be, and managed to get to the incident in 9 minutes by using a bus.
Sounds like the guy had his head screwed on.
I know the sheep desperately want there to be a story, but seemingly there isn't. Or do they believe that all PCSOs should be shadowed by cars just in case?
Last edited by: No FM2R on Fri 19 Dec 14 at 18:01
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In Scotland the community police team are police officers. This is a team near me, I do not see any PCSOs only an Inspector, Sergeant, and eight PCs.
www.scotland.police.uk/your-community/fife/west-fife/dunfermline-north/
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Could be a Chief Inspector for all I care, it still seems like he had his head screwed on and did the right thing.
What do *you* think should have been the position?
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Maybe you should read the manual.
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Nothing wrong...all credit to the guy. Before 1968 none of us had cars except the divisional Inspector with his black Morris 1000 and the van crew.....who, er......had a van.
It was bus all the time if you had some distance to go in a bit of a hurry. No fares were involved. The bus crew...yes, two of them !...were pleased to have a bobby on the rear platform.
One never sat, of course......dignity !
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>> One never sat, of course......dignity !
Yeah, all those braces-straightening knee bends afterwards like Charlie Chaplin...
:o}
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>>
>> Evenin' all.
>>
A pity the clip round the ear and a word with your dad has gone too.
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>>A pity the clip round the ear and a word with your dad has gone too.
Stuff and nonsense. Apocryphal rubbish.
Had my Father gone home and told his Father that the local copper had clipped him around the ear, he'd have first clipped my Father and then gone looking for a fight with the copper on the basis that only he could hit one of his kids.
My Father would have visited the police station and written letters had it happened to me.
Whereas I would be filing law suits aiming to end a career had it happened to one of my children.
It is not for a policeman to decide whether or not someone else's child should be hit.
A policeman would have to be nuts to follow that approach.
Last edited by: No FM2R on Sat 20 Dec 14 at 13:29
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We seem to be of different generations and backgrounds. Are you one of the "Me, me, me, sue them at every opportunity" one?
Last edited by: Old Navy on Sat 20 Dec 14 at 14:40
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You are so obviously your Fathers son Mark, most Dad's I knew then would have welcomed that approach and backed up the copper, with a threat of worse to come if it ever happened again.
Pat
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So your Father, and the others Fathers you knew, would have welcomed a 3rd party deciding whether or not you should be hit?
That explains a lot.
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>>We seem to be of different generations and backgrounds.
I truly, truly hope so.
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Get off your PC horse, it rarely happened, it was called discipline, unfortunately not a concept that many youngsters have come across.
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I'm with ON and Pat really, being more of their generation.
The combination of soppiness and self-righteous pugnacity seems very unattractive and annoying to me, FMR. It seems to have become fashionable especially among what used to be called the lower classes. But no doubt it passes unnoticed among whippersnappers these days.
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"Clip round the ear" = child hit on the head by adult = child abuse, not discipline.
If you were hit on the head by a by a policeman because of a perceived minor offence would you accept it and call it discipline?
No? Then why you would think that the same procedure applied to children is acceptable.
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I dunno CGN... can't remember being clipped round the ear much at all, and certainly not for a 'minor perceived offence'. The clip round the ear or resort to force would normally be for deliberate defiance or cheek on the part of the miscreant.
Such behaviour is quite usual among boys and the short sharp shocks were designed to prevent them from growing up into nasty dangerous teenage hobbledehoys and spivs. Or so I always thought. It didn't work on everyone. Very few things do. We're a cartload of monkeys who need to be kept in check whether we admit it or not.
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Because it worked.
Children didn't end up brain damaged, adults realised they had to do it lightly, children respected knowing the boundaries they had and we have constant proof that the discipline worked.
We see now the results of the lack of that sort of discipline in many ways....as well as lack of respect for the Police who dished it out.
Pat
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I think that you "do gooders" who have been responsible for some parents, the po!ice and to some extent the armed forces being hobbled and unable to apply discipline where it is nessisary should go and live on an estate plagued with gangs of feral children who respect no one.
How about the ones who set fires so that they can stone the fire appliance and its crew? The parents don't care, the police are powerless and worried about their jobs, and getting sued by some people on the take. I believe some expats moved out because of falling standards.
Last edited by: Old Navy on Sat 20 Dec 14 at 18:02
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Conversely, I and two friends were dragged up an alley and systematically beaten up by 4 police officers when we were teenagers because they mistook us for a different group of lads who had assaulted someone. We knew nothing of and had nothing to do with the incident but just happened to vaguely fit the description a witness to the attack had given and we happened to be in the area .
It was getting really nasty for us when another police patrol found the real culprits. We were told in no uncertain terms that it would do us no favours at all to complain or report the matter.
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Here is another extreme but not unusual one.
tinyurl.com/om4fxod
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>> I think that you "do gooders" who have been responsible for some parents, the po!ice
>> and to some extent the armed forces being hobbled and unable to apply discipline where
>> it is nessisary should go and live on an estate plagued with gangs of feral
>> children who respect no one.
That is rather well said ON.
There has to be a happy medium of course, so that the unpleasant among us don't take liberties, but IMO the pendulum has swung badly too far the other way.. and we are reaping what we have sown.
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>> >> I think that you "do gooders" who have been responsible for some parents, the
>> po!ice
>> >> and to some extent the armed forces being hobbled and unable to apply discipline
>> where
>> >> it is nessisary should go and live on an estate plagued with gangs of
>> feral
>> >> children who respect no one.
The last time the police tried "discipline" we had the Brixton Riots.
By discipline you mean violence and brutality. The police can police without resorting to brutality. Robust policing in the face of threat maybe.
The british police can only police by consent of the majority of those policed. Violence and brutality keeled out by those forces will soon loose that.
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Because it worked?
Did it.? I don't think so. Arbitrary violence inflicted on indiviuals never works. Just ask yourself woluld you respect a policemen who hit you round the head for arguing the toss after being stopped. Of course you wouldn't . You might try to avoid contact with the police in future. You would probably end up despising the police . What makes you think that children act and feel differently to adults?
The idea that hitting children was somehow OK and that they had no right of address is part of the culture that that has led to so many stories of child abuse emerging from those "good old days"
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>> Did it.? I don't think so. Arbitrary violence inflicted on indiviuals never works. What
>> makes you think that children act and feel differently to adults?
>>
>> The idea that hitting children was somehow OK and that they had no right of
>> address is part of the culture that that has led to so many stories of
>> child abuse emerging from those "good old days"
Total cobblers.
I was caned twice as a child at secondary school.
Once was when I threw a stone at another child and just missed his eye... I thoroughly deserved it. That one got it over the backside.
The second time I was stood on a hedge outside the front of the school when I shouldn't have been.. and my form tutor noticed me and a thwack over the hand it was.
I have no problem with it.
I didn't do it again.
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>> The second time I was stood on a hedge outside the front of the school
>> when I shouldn't have been.. and my form tutor noticed me and a thwack over
>> the hand it was.
don't you consider physical assault for what appears to be a trivial incident a little over the top?
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>> don't you consider physical assault for what appears to be a trivial incident a little
>> over the top?
>>
Physical assault, do me a favour, you must have led a sheltered life. What it does do is give a rapid understanding of the rules and boundary's.
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>> Physical assault, do me a favour, you must have led a sheltered life. What it
>> does do is give a rapid understanding of the rules and boundary's.
Hitting someone for standing on a hedge?
Sheltered life? At least i didn't do a runner from London because I couldn't take it.
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>> Hitting someone for standing on a hedge?
It was outside the school boundary, so against the rules and harder for them to keep you safe
It was also right next to the vehicle entrance to the school, so there was a small element of risk from vehicular traffic.
In the big scheme of things, as you suggest, it was sod all... however, I was stretching the boundaries as kids do... so a short sharp shock put me back in line.
What's the problem?
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>> >> Hitting someone for standing on a hedge?
>> What's the problem?
Are you going to hit your child if you find them standing on a hedge?
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>> >> >> Hitting someone for standing on a hedge?
>>
>> >> What's the problem?
>>
>> Are you going to hit your child if you find them standing on a hedge?
Hmm seems this one has gone unanswered. I'll take that as a yes then
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>> >> Are you going to hit your child if you find them standing on a
>> hedge?
>>
>> Hmm seems this one has gone unanswered. I'll take that as a yes then
>>
Didn't see your post.
The answer is 'no', I wouldn't.....unless?
The 'unless' might be if we'd told him the hedge across the road was a out of bounds for safety reasons, he'd been caught up there several times, received a rollocking and then still chose to ignore it....unlikely because he's not like that, we've trained him not to be.... however, if it were for his own good, long term, then it's still an option, albeit not used nowadays as we don't have to.
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>> it's still an option,
thats a yes then.
>> albeit not used nowadays
with past history of it.
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>>we've trained him not to be.
Not "taught"?
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>> >>we've trained him not to be.
>>
>> Not "taught"?
>>
I've never claimed to have the best command of the English language.
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>> Sheltered life? At least i didn't do a runner from London because I couldn't take
>> it.
>>
London was absolutely fine when I left, it is now almost unrecognisable, I have seen foreign countries that look more like England than some London inner suburbs. The people even spoke English.
Last edited by: Old Navy on Sat 20 Dec 14 at 19:17
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>> London was absolutely fine when I left, it is now almost unrecognisable, I have seen
>> foreign countries that look more like England than some London inner suburbs.
Ah! there we go your true light shining through.
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>> Ah! there we go your true light shining through.
>>
Is he not entitled to his own opinion? Are some people's opinions worth more than others?
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>> >> Ah! there we go your true light shining through.
>> >>
>>
>> Is he not entitled to his own opinion? Are some people's opinions worth more than
>> others?
As indeed am i am I not?
That was my opinion, you got a problem with that or is yours the only one allowed?
Last edited by: Zero on Sat 20 Dec 14 at 19:24
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>> That was my opinion, you got a problem with that or is yours the only
>> one allowed?
>>
I happen to think it 'takes all sorts to make a world'.
So why did you pull him up on it then?
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>> So why did you pull him up on it then?
I expressed an opinion about my distaste to his attitudes, which I believe I am allowed to do and I really think he is big enough and ugly enough to look after himself don't you?
Last edited by: VxFan on Sun 21 Dec 14 at 04:33
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>> I expressed an opinion about my distaste to his attitudes, which I believe I am
>> allowed to do and I really think he is big enough and ugly enough to
>> look after himself don't you?
>>
Looks like a Zero wriggle to me.
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you think? fine whatever.
Didn't know he needed a chaperone.
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>>I really think he is big enough and ugly enough to
>> look after himself don't you?
>>
Of course I am both big and ugly but it is always handy to have the local bobby around. :)
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>> Of course I am both big and ugly but it is always handy to have
>> the local bobby around. :)
>>
Who is.. er.. big and ugly...;-)
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>> Ah! there we go your true light shining through.
>
Shock, horror, non PC truth!!!!!!!
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>>London was absolutely fine when I left, it is now almost unrecognisable, I have seen foreign countries that look more like England than some London inner suburbs. The people even spoke English.
Ah yes, the evil immigrant ruining everything. Do you have any other chains?
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>> At least i didn't do a runner from London because I couldn't take
>> it.
I've done a runner from London ..and think it's a sensible option.
My IBS has improved dramatically, my blood pressure is down and I've lost a stone in weight (just another 4 or 5 to go).
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>>What it does do is give a rapid understanding of the rules and boundary's.
You mean, if you're bigger you can hit?
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>> don't you consider physical assault for what appears to be a trivial incident a little
>> over the top?
Not really.
At the time I felt hard done by.
However, looking back on my life, I truly wish I'd had more teachers like him.
For my first year and a term of secondary school I went to a school that you had to pass the 11+ to get in... and they were as strict as hell... and I was doing very well.
Then I moved to a rural area and went off to the local comprehensive, where there was sod all discipline... and surprise, surprise it started going south.
Thank Christ I was naturally bright otherwise my life would have been a different story.
At one point I had dreams of being a lawyer or a journalist.. well forget that from the comprehensive.
My old form tutor from the first school was also my human biology teacher.. and I reckon I could still make a passable attempt at drawing a human heart, one of his homework demands, because you didn't dare ignore him.
I'd shake his hand now, if he is still about.
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>>>Thank Christ I was naturally bright otherwise my life would have been a different story.
At one point I had dreams of being a lawyer or a journalist.. well forget that from the comprehensive.<<<
why?
If you were 'bright' it was possible. OK, it may have been that you ended up in a very poor comprehensive (or just had poor teachers), but what makes you think you would done differently at the grammar school.
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>> why?
>>
>> If you were 'bright' it was possible. OK, it may have been that you ended
>> up in a very poor comprehensive (or just had poor teachers), but what makes you
>> think you would done differently at the grammar school.
The discipline was crap.
I drifted and was not pushed.
My results would not have been good enough, whereas they would have been at the grammar type school.
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Maybe it's a generation thing, or more like geographic, but I went to a comprehensive and, along with pretty much everyone else, left with a perfectly good education. No corporal punishment, and none the worse for it. We were certainly not hit as children, and I don't recall any of my friends being either.
If it had come to that then all respect would have been lost straight away, which surely is instead a reason not to? If we were doing something we shouldn't we generally knew it, and expected, if caught, to be called on it. Consequences could have been extra chores, or not being permitted to do something we wanted, but it would never occurred to us tht we would be hit for it. The subsequent disappointment we'd caused was enough!!
Being hit would have been just one step above 'because I said so' in its level of pursuasiveness. If you can't articulate why, don't expect me to blindly follow ;-)
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>> Being hit would have been just one step above 'because I said so' in its
>> level of pursuasiveness. If you can't articulate why, don't expect me to blindly follow ;-)
>>
I think you are right it is a generational thing, but I also think it has slipped in the wrong direction.
If I think back to my Physics lessons, because a group of us found it hard to grasp, we sodded about. The teacher on reflection was a nice man, knowledgeable etc... but had no control of the class, so because we didn't have to, we didn't.
It is my perception that many of our modern secondary schools are like that... and that is why we as a country have gone backwards with our education standards.
No one wants the bully or violent individual to have a free hand...but... neither should the caring parent or caring teacher be held back from disciplining those that need it for theirs and others ultimate benefit.
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Same with maths. Lost the thread early doors and if you don't get the foundations right you cant build on them. Got a scrape O level in the end.
Teaching and training has changed from the didactic approach. Its important to check and assess every students understanding before moving on.
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IMO if a 'caring' teacher can't control a class then they've no business being a teacher - it's a key requirement of the job. Getting round their lack of ability by allowing them, or someone else, to hit a child just teaches children that if you can't get what you want then try violence. And that's to no ones benefit...
Of course raising the standard of teaching means measuring teachers performance and, in my view, linking in some way part of their pay or progression to performance. Something the NUT, along with many unionised professions often seem against... I do think there are fewer places for poor teachers to hide nowadays, so I think it's more likely that there's less of the low level mucking about in class than there used to be (in the 80s when I was at school) though perhaps a smaller had core of trouble makers? I still don't think violence is the answer - it just normalises and then perpetuates it...
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Although I don' t think there is any place for corporal punishment in school at least there was some regulation and recording of punishment. Condoning the random hitting of children by police officers without any authority so to do is quite another matter.
Like you I was caned a number of times at schools. Sometimes I was guilty of the offence for which I was being punished. Sometimes I wasn't The punishment was usually inflicted by the weaker teachers who were unable to control their classes without the sanction of violence. The best teachers commanded the respect of the class without needing the cane .
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>>I was caned twice as a child at secondary school.
Clearly where you learned you belief in violence as a solution. Rather proving my earlier point.
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>> Clearly where you learned you belief in violence as a solution. Rather proving my earlier
>> point.
Well that's certainly an option.
On the other hand it might well be the case that I have a fair degree of balance on the subject matter.
I've always been the sort of person that makes his own mind up, a 'do my own thing' person.
Nice try.
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Nice try? Don't understand.
In any case, it seems that you believe it is acceptable for a 3rd party (in this case a policeman) to decide whether or not my child should be hit.
I believe nobody other than my wife or I can decide that one of our children should be hit (and we decide that they should not be).
And you wonder why I dislike the idea that someone of your mentality was a policeman. I am glad that you no longer are in such a position.
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>> Because it worked.
Nah it never did.
>> Children didn't end up brain damaged, adults realised they had to do it lightly,
If you do it lightly, it doesn't hurt, if it doesn't hurt it has no effect. If it hurts its medically dangerous.
>> we have constant proof that the discipline worked.
No we don't. Certain kids are are as bad as they have always been. for every example of modern day "decline in standards" i can show you a corresponding example from 50/60/70 years ago.
>>as well as lack of respect for the Police who dished it out.
You do not respect someone in power who abuses that power and gives you a wallop.. Clearly you have never been on the end of a beating by the MET SPG.
Last edited by: Zero on Sat 20 Dec 14 at 18:56
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.
Last edited by: MD on Sat 20 Dec 14 at 20:18
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If one has a brain then one should instinctively know what effect their actions are likely to engender. For example. I knew of a boy who was caught having a tinkle outside of the doors of a local West London Cinema and was unfortunately spotted by Plod. That boy, although he didn't get whacked, never done it again cos (allegedly) the dressing down was sufficient to cure his future flow! However I can also tell you that if the Copper had used excessive force on that boy then that Copper would have needed to keep his eyes peeled for a very long time. That boy had the memory of an Elephant, but he also knew that when he'd overstepped the mark then reasonable punishment should be accepted and to 'move on'.
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>>Because it worked.
No it didn't.
>>and we have constant proof that the discipline worked.
How's that then? Seems to me we have constant proof that it did not.
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>> it was called discipline
Call it what you like, its violence towards a minor at the discretion of an independent 3rd party.
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>> I'm with you O.N.
>>
Thanks. I suspect are a silent majority who also agree but keep their head below the parapet. All we can do is vote.Those who make the most noise are often the ones who realise the have got it wrong and changed this country forever, and not for the better. I am old enough to to have enjoyed it as it was and won't have to live with the consequences for more than a decade or so. Good luck to today's youngsters.
Last edited by: Old Navy on Sat 20 Dec 14 at 21:59
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Any chance of remembering we're talking about >>A pity the clip round the ear and a word with your dad has gone too. <<
From that we're now accused of supporting the Brixton Riots....only on car4play!
Pat
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>> Any chance of remembering we're talking about >>A pity the clip round the ear and
>> a word with your dad has gone too. <<
>>
>> From that we're now accused of supporting the Brixton Riots....only on car4play!
>>
>> Pat
Caused the riots dear, get it right.
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Pat I find it difficult to believe that you honestly believe an adult casually inflicting physical pain on a child is a justifiable thing to do. You never answered my question as to whether you think a similar action directed against an adult would be be justified.
I rather suspect that if someone were to hit one of your cats you would be upset and complaining but you think hitting a child is OK. I am amazed.
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>>Pat I find it difficult to believe that you honestly believe an adult casually inflicting physical pain on a child is a justifiable thing to do. You never answered my question as to whether you think a similar action directed against an adult would be be justified.
<<
I find it impossible to justify my meaning to anyone who can be as obtuse as that.
You are of an age that is familiar with a 'clip round the ear', you know exactly what it meant, in it's time.
It didn't consist of 'inflicting physical pain' as you seem hell bent on making out.
In most cases it simply hurt the dignity of the offender in front of his or her friends, far more effective and certainly not physical either.
Now do stop trying to dramatise something that doesn't exist in those of us who consider a 'clip round the ear' as effective punishment.
Pat
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>> Now do stop trying to dramatise something that doesn't exist in those of us who
>> consider a 'clip round the ear' as effective punishment.
When my son (now aged 7) started toddling, I vowed to my wife that our Sky box and DVD player were not going to be trashed like my sisters was and my mother's, due to the normal actions of my nieces when they were that age... and by them fiddling with them or posting things through the apertures.
So, when the inevitable happened and my son got to those boxes under the t.v. and we sternly told him "no"...and he laughed and ignored it.. as they do.... he had two of my fingers slap him on the wrist, together with a firm "no". So he cried.
Didn't take long... and he worked out that was a no-no. Never happened again.
Lawful chastisement of a child it is called.
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Morning all, that generated a good evenings chat. Just so that know that I don't beat up toddlers I was "Father Christmas" at two toddler groups at our church last week, an enjoyable extension to the job of professional grandad. My kids and grandkids have never been hit, are all polite well adjusted adults (grandkids teenagers) and even wear seatbelts as a natural part of being in a car (motoring link). As WP says, early training reaps many rewards.
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>> Morning all, that generated a good evenings chat. Just so that know that I don't
>> beat up toddlers I was "Father Christmas" at two toddler groups at our church last
>> week, an enjoyable extension to the job of professional grandad.
Shame you didn't do your zip up....Jimmy.........;-)
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>> Shame you didn't do your zip up....Jimmy.........;-)
>>
Typical copper. :)
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There's a big difference between a sharp slap and and a violent beating by a thug. The former is sometimes necessary as has been pointed out above and the latter will go whatever laws you bring out about smacking children.
To automatically equate the two as the same thing and the people who carry them out as the same types of person is incorrect.
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>> There's a big difference between a sharp slap and and a violent beating by a
>> thug. The former is sometimes necessary as has been pointed out above and the latter
>> will go whatever laws you bring out about smacking children.
>>
>> To automatically equate the two as the same thing and the people who carry them
>> out as the same types of person is incorrect.
>>
The voice of reason. Amen to that.
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>> The voice of reason. Amen to that.
Yes. What the modernists here don't seem to understand is that these small slaps on the wrist or clips over the ear aren't meant to 'cause pain' and usually don't in the physical sense. Any pain (and it isn't very grave for a well-balanced child) is from being pulled up short perhaps in front of others. Children know that life isn't always fair and are tolerant of a little unfairness. A teacher or relation who has it in for a particular individual or is often unfair will become well known and a bit despised by sensible nippers.
Another thing these modern wimpy types don't seem to understand is that the difference between children and responsible adults isn't simply a matter of size. That's a stupid, two dimensional and sentimental view. The real point is that adults have more sense than children too, a much better idea of what's risky or permissible behaviour, and of course a child may be putting itself in danger or being seriously objectionable, needing to be stopped sharply and promptly.
Family, class and local cultures ensure that there is some variation in the degree and type of force considered acceptable. Once or twice I have come across families which seemed surprisingly harsh by the standards of my own (which were themselves quite variable). Very extreme differences were rare though when I was young. Naturally one's parents tended to oppose association with people they considered too rough.
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Formal corporal punishment in schools is another matter, and usually does hurt quite a lot. But you're in the same boat as everyone else and it's a matter of honour not to cry or overreact, although it can be difficult. Other children are usually surprisingly sympathetic if the punishee isn't a notorious bully or similar.
When I was 9 or 10 I got caned twice (a six and a three) and was given four with the headmaster's much-feared hairbrush within three days just before the end of term. My mother made me get in the bath when I came home, spotted some weals and bruises on my bum and called my father. They were both a bit shocked and were toying with the idea of complaining to the school, but I begged them not to so earnestly that they didn't. I didn't want to be known to have soppy parents upset by a few cane weals, which on the whole were seen by us as badges of honour.
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Badge of honour ?.....Yes siree !
I went to an all boys grammar school with all male teachers. Several were WW1 vets. Black robes were the dress of the day and the strap was the head's weapon of choice. I faced it a few times, once for forging a sick note from me ole mam !
We would return to class and everyone would gather round to view the wounds. I wouldn't tell mum though or she'd have walloped me as well! She got me once with the back of the hairbrush when I nicked one of her fags and smoked it locked in the bathroom. I still don't know how she found me out !
Discipline in school was based on violence and lines. I hated lines...remember trying to attach 5 pens together with Sellotape to do five at a time ? Never worked for me. Violence was meted out by both sides.
In the 6th form, In leaving year, most of us had jobs already organised in spite of the total lack of any careers advice or help from the school. We had nothing to lose. Walking down the corridor one day in a group, one of our gang suddenly attacked the deputy head, punching him in the face.........expelled, but he wasn't bothered. A chemistry teacher had the varnished wooden arm af a chair to hit pupils with.....he called it Wally. He was barking mad. I was in his class one day indulging in our regular form work of flicking spit at his back when he was using the blackboard. He turned and caught one of us, picked up 'Wally' and promptly got himself laid out by the 6th former he'd threatened.
Poor guy. He later went to Merchant Tailors in Liverpool and eventually topped himself..
Happy days ? Not a bit of it ! 90% of the teachers were working their tickets after 40 yrs there. Food was foul..never looked at a butter bean since. We had superb metalwork and woodwork facilities and were forced to make an attempt at Latin instead.
I understand they don't hit you now at school !
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Presumably, this lady made it all up
tinyurl.com/lu6orvr
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>> and your point is?
Take a wild guess.
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I know that a story that says "Undercover reporter uncovers good schools' wouldn't be a seller, you wouldn't send an undercover reporter into good schools (the majority) so they managed to find a couple of bad schools in some inner city areas.
If you want me to guess - I assume your view is that these schools are bad because the children are not subject to corporal punishment.
I would also guess, based on your past views, that these are all schools with a majority of immigrant children so they must be "bad uns" and that this is typical of them.
Hows that for a guess?
Last edited by: Zero on Sun 21 Dec 14 at 19:47
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>> I know that a story that says "Undercover reporter uncovers good schools' wouldn't be a
>> seller, you wouldn't send an undercover reporter into good schools (the majority) so they managed
>> to find a couple of bad schools in some inner city areas.
There's validity in that statement. Trouble is the problem is considerably wider (and worse) than just a couple of inner city schools here and there.
My comprehensive was a rural one, in Devon.
>>
>> If you want me to guess - I assume your view is that these schools
>> are bad because the children are not subject to corporal punishment.
No. I want better discipline, however that is achieved. If it can be done without corporal punishment, then so be it..if not, bring it back.
>>
>> I would also guess, based on your past views, that these are all schools with
>> a majority of immigrant children so they must be "bad uns" and that this is
>> typical of them.
Bit of a sweeping statement that only shows you up, not me. I haven't mentioned, hinted at or even thought about immigrants or anything similar. My own schooling years only ever had one black kid in it and only for a couple of years... and who from memory was well respected and was well behaved. Other than that is was 100% white and local.... and the school was of poor quality in some areas.
>>
>>
>> Hows that for a guess?
Typical Zero
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>
>> Bit of a sweeping statement that only shows you up, not me.
Well as you didn't mention anything about the article when you posted it one can only assume it fitted in with your previously avowed views.
>> Typical Zero
Wriggling a bit there westie.
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>> Wriggling a bit there westie.
>>
Frownie isn't me.
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>> Presumably, this lady made it all up
>>
>> tinyurl.com/lu6orvr
>>
Just 2 points; it's trailed as the three most troubled schools in the country, so in no representative of the whole. And it's edited for TV...
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>>Discipline in school was based on violence and lines.
>> I hated lines...remember trying to attach 5 pens together with Sellotape to do five at a time ?
>>Never worked for me.
>>
One of the better, younger teachers (subject - English) would sometimes supervise detention.
We knew what was coming. He gently strolled round the ranks of desks with a pile of dictonaries under his chin. At each desk he would place a dictionary in front of the victim and open it.
" Please write 50 words and their definitions in clear hand writing"
He seemed to note the page but we never knew if he really did ..
Very clever idea! He was well respected.
He also doubled up teaching RE. Again " Look pupils, We have to cover this subject so lets all knuckle down to it and if we finish the term early then we cal talk about other ( more interesting) things.
The Chemistry/ Physics teacher every day seemed to visit the local pub for some sort of lunch.
All compasses pointed in one direction (of course) and he got irate when we called them pubometers.
PE master would always run with us on cross country training ( and with every class )
That impressed us rather than, as others did, send us on a run and I will see you back at the gym.
p.s John Disney was his name, a little better known later in life and now.
One of the French teachers would throw the board rubber at a chatterer.
He eased off doing it after one shot bounced off the wall and hit an innocent in the desk behind the target.
My grammar school was going down hill fast especially after I left. We all thought the head was very ineffective.
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>> PE master would always run with us on cross country training ( and with every class )
>> That impressed us rather than, as others did, send us on a run and I will see you back at the gym.
>> p.s John Disney was his name, a little better known later in life and now.
Blimey, I didn't realise how old you are!
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Disney
;-)
Last edited by: swiss tony on Sun 21 Dec 14 at 20:36
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>> Blimey, I didn't realise how old you are!
>> en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Disney
>>
>> ;-)
Nor did I :-)
John Disley was the man.
www.welshathletics.org/about-us/our-history/hall-of-fame/john-disley.aspx
He seems to have kept a low profile ( still around) in spite of all his good work.
Favourite for a gold medal but Chris Brasher got it.
A tiny Wiki write up but by coincidence
www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/life/courtsocial/article3605176.ece
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>> I went to an all boys grammar school with all male teachers.
Sounds like a tough place Ted. I went to 8 schools and none was as bad as yours sounds, not even Dinas Cross Council School or Fishguard County Grammar. Actually the more posh private schools I went to were the most ferocious in their formal punishments, by a wide margin. When you're a new boy, perhaps exotic-seeming, sometimes younger than your classmates, not very tough or aggressive, the others circle round for a while deciding whether to kill you or not, and by the time some have decided on a lynching you've made friends with one or two others, so have tacit protection.
I had a very short, ill-paid and depressing job as a teacher in a small, lousy South London private 'grammar' school. As a teacher I was lousier than the school, impatient, immature, snooty and generally foolish. The job was so depressing that I took to getting drunk at lunch time in the nearest pub with the school handyman, a convivial soul, until it was noticed and I was fired, rather to my relief. God it was awful.
A boy in my class broke a strip of wood off the front of his desk one day and I made him bend over and gave him three with it. He was very indignant and I felt rotten and guilty. I suppose it hurt more than I thought it would. But the modern era was already under way and I was slipping out of synch with it. Not all the changes have been for the good. But I would think that, wouldn't I? Heh heh...
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I meant to add, on Ted's post: anyone who punched or decked a teacher would be expelled immediately in my day and might even get into legal trouble and 'end up in Borstal'. My father when sufficiently provoked would sometimes predict that for me. 'Borstal' certainly sounded terrible, but I knew perfectly well I wouldn't end up there and so did the old man.
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See what I mean up thread about our armed forces being hobbled by the do gooders and PC brigade.
tinyurl.com/k4da38c
I don't believe that prisoners should be mistreated but this is crazy in a war situation. Note the reference to ambulance chasing lawyers and a £31 million enquiry that found no major problems with prisoner treatment.
Last edited by: Old Navy on Sun 21 Dec 14 at 21:16
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Once again O.N. I'm with you all of the way. The world's gone mad.
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Not sure that's related, he was a prisoner of the spams not us.might seem to be a small detail but it's not really.
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>> en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dilawar_(torture_victim)
>>
>> etc
>> etc
>> etc
>>
Not one of our bad eggs. But don't forget that you sleep safe in your bed because there are people who do the unpleasant things that you decry so loudly.
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>> Not one of our bad eggs. But don't forget that you sleep safe in your
>> bed because there are people who do the unpleasant things that you decry so loudly.
You keep saying that, but its rollox. The british army were shooting civilians on sundays in Ireland, but the IRA were still trying to blow me up in London.
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>>But don't forget that you sleep safe in your bed because there are people who do the unpleasant things that you decry so loudly.
Many of the unpleasant things add nothing to our intelligence, dehumanise our troops to enable further atrocities to happen, and are likely counter-productive in the long run. As well as being illegal in many cases.
There has been no better recruiting aid for Al Qaeda, the IRA, the Taliban,... than the torture/maiming/murdering/jailing of hundreds/thousands of innocent civilians in various 'theatres' (worst euphemism ever?) of war.
Every time you read of the Israelis blowing up a couple of Hamas commanders with half-a-dozen of their children as collateral damage you know that the conflict is just being extended.
The important work done by the 'Forces in Afghanistan is in education and governance work. Every civvy blown up/killed in captivity will lead to more fresh and idealistic recruits to the cause.
Hearts and minds. Fail to win them and the game's over before it begins.
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>> Hearts and minds. Fail to win them and the game's over before it begins.
>>
I agree, but am far from being clever enough to know the answer. Do you allow the violent unprincipled people to do as they wish to you and yours, or meet them with equal or totally overpowering violence?
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>> I agree, but am far from being clever enough to know the answer. Do you
>> allow the violent unprincipled people to do as they wish to you and yours, or
>> meet them with equal or totally overpowering violence?
>>
You definitely need hearts and minds, no shadow of a doubt... but you also need to show you are principled and are no push over.
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>> But don't forget that you sleep safe in your bed because there are people who do the unpleasant things >>
No. I am not convinced. I don't dispute that men and women are being very brave, but I don't think they should be in Afghanistan/Iraq/a n other country in the first place.
Before you leap in, I have served in the army (if that is the least bit relevant).
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I did not specifically mean the people who do the unpleasant things are the armed forces. I suspect tahat there are things that go on which Joe public (I include myself in that category) have no knowledge.
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Soldiers, and policemen too, are much trammelled by the constant flow of legislation from an often craven parliament. One has to sympathise a little, while remembering that the army (and the police too) have ways of tweaking the gonads of reluctant witnesses to get the information. In the heat of the moment... but those brutes who duffed up Humph and his friends may have felt a little threatened and indignant. Of course it gets more urgent in war zones.
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Up against it you just do what you have to surely.
How did the A4 (paper touching nose scenario) 'get out'??
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There were two things that struck me about the secret teacher clip.
1. The children appeared frustrated by the total lack of continuity in their teaching.
2. They showed an utter lack of disrespect towards a complete stranger.
As we seem to be focused on the respect side of things, respect has to be earned but equally respect has to be given. In order for that to happen there must be boundaries and norms. That particular group of children clearly displayed none of those attributes. You can point a finger at parenting or lack of it. Teachers no longer have the backing to impose discipline so everything slides. There are no boundaries because there are no consequences.
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>> There were two things that struck me about the secret teacher clip.
>>
>> 1. The children appeared frustrated by the total lack of continuity in their teaching.
>> 2. They showed an utter lack of [respect] towards a complete stranger.
>>
It doesn't take many disruptive pupils to make classes like that. Inevitably there will be a lot of factors at work here, but the big one has to be bad parents.
Did you watch the sequel, when the inspection was taking place? The troublemakers were secretly pulled out of normal lessons or sent on trips, and the classes were much better behaved. The inspection found that the school had improved!
It's hard to blame the teachers for this - the school while deemed failing had not been allowed to recruit newly trained teachers (so presumably struggled to recruit any at all). Having "improved", it would be allowed to do so, and so reduce the staffing problems.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=D7ZtMYTY9OU
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>> Paper cut?
The sheet of paper still had the rest of the telephone directory attached to it.
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>> >> Paper cut?
>>
>> The sheet of paper still had the rest of the telephone directory attached to it.
>>
>>
It was you! Do tell us more. :)
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... are not mutually exclusive, as I often have cause to notice.
My own attitude to others' driving isn't vengeful but is extremely - and I mean extremely - critical and polemical. I get slightly irritated by drivers most would think perfectly all right. But a bit of wavering across the centreline, speed too far below the limit, speed varying randomly by more than 1mph, all these things make me gnash my teeth and curse.
On the way to London and back today (don't ask, London was awful although the traffic was quite light) there were a few of the above as there always are, and soon the car began to boom and twitter with my boring monologue (I was alone): 'Qui sont ces cons? Où trouvent-ils (or trouve-t-on) des cons comme ça (or 'des cons semblables')? Fous-le-camp, sacré con! Arrêtes de bloquer mon chemin!' and so on, but in English which is generally thought quite a lot ruder.
On one occasion though, when I hesitated because I couldn't work out what the cat thought he or she was doing, the other car disarmed me totally by giving a polite flash of its hazards as it slipped into my lane in front... 'Jeez, sorry man, I misjudged you...'
Goodness I'm glad to be home. Time for a large one, three hours late. YEE-hah!
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Off message? - Runfer D'Hills
