Motoring Discussion > The Chinese are cloning vehicles again	Buying / Selling
Thread Author: VxFan	Replies: 32

New Wed 26 Nov 14 12:54   The Chinese are cloning vehicles again - VxFan

This time the Range Rover Evoque tinyurl.com/ps3as8w - www.autocar.co.uk Reply to this message | Report message

New Wed 26 Nov 14 13:46   The Chinese are cloning vehicles again - TheManWithNoName

I saw this on FB yesterday. Incredibly many people were saying they'd buy one and it proves what a massive markup LR loads for their badge. Mind you the one thing the chinese can't clone is the NCAP rating. I've heard Chinese cars fold like a napkin at the merest hint of a collision. Reply to this message | Report message

New Wed 26 Nov 14 14:01   The Chinese are cloning vehicles again - Zero

>> Mind you the one thing the chinese can't clone is the NCAP rating. I've heard >> Chinese cars fold like a napkin at the merest hint of a collision. Perhaps the name is not the only thing the massive markup gets you. Reply to this message | Report message

New Wed 26 Nov 14 14:26   The Chinese are cloning vehicles again - Armel Coussine

>> I've heard >> Chinese cars fold like a napkin at the merest hint of a collision. From a geezer down the pub? I can't help wondering how much truth there is in that. People used to say much the same about Japanese cars, but somehow they seem to have given that one up. Perhaps - although one would have to know, and personally I doubt it - Chinese cloned Land Rovers are significantly weaker and worse assembled than the ones made here with the authentic badge. I've seen people here banging on endlessly about crap build standards from former BL assembly plants. If the price difference is equally marked, a lot of buyers in all countries will be tempted to give the clone a try. Last edited by: Armel Coussine on Wed 26 Nov 14 at 14:28 Reply to this message | Report message

New Wed 26 Nov 14 14:31   The Chinese are cloning vehicles again - rtj70

Some previous Chinese cars when crash tested really did perform VERY badly. Geely was one I think (now own Volvo). They got 0 out 5. www.youtube.com/watch?v=INsrUGV3rww www.drive.com.au/motor-news/chinas-crashtest-flunky-20101021-16v6c.html Would you travel in that particular model car in 2010? I wouldn't. Maybe they improved overall now. www.youtube.com/watch?v=yW6eV2V0G4Y Last edited by: rtj70 on Wed 26 Nov 14 at 14:34 Reply to this message | Report message

New Wed 26 Nov 14 15:53   The Chinese are cloning vehicles again - Cliff Pope

>> >> I've heard >> >> Chinese cars fold like a napkin at the merest hint of a collision. >> >>People used to say much the same about Japanese cars, That was origami, not napkins. Reply to this message | Report message

New Wed 26 Nov 14 14:59   The Chinese are cloning vehicles again - Enderman

I may be wrong, but did I read somewhere that, ironically, the company doing this are part of the group that manufactures the REAL chinese-market Evoque for JaguarLandRover ? I must admit, it does kind of expose the inflated price Brits pay for what must be a very very similar thing. I also think buying one of these pulls the rug out from under the feet of the types that tend to buy an Evoque anyway - they're usually bought as fashion accessories for yummy mummies. Imagine their horror when Chanteline from the sink estate turns up in an identical-looking machine that cost less than half the price... I'm also sure that if the Chinese really wanted to match the Evoque's NCAP score, they could ascend the learning curve in pretty short order, and still not add much cost to the car. Remember how Korean Hyundai were pooh-poohed in the days of the Pony and Stellar - now they're pretty-much mainstream, and often a better bet than the European offerings. Reply to this message | Report message

New Wed 26 Nov 14 16:11   The Chinese are cloning vehicles again - Zero

>> I also think buying one of these pulls the rug out from under the feet >> of the types that tend to buy an Evoque anyway - they're usually bought as >> fashion accessories for yummy mummies. Imagine their horror when Chanteline from the sink estate turns >> up in an identical-looking machine that cost less than half the price... Errrr, Its been on show at the Chinese Motor Show, that is not the same (nor is it ever likely to be) as "on sale in a showroom in Corby" >> Remember how Korean Hyundai were pooh-poohed in the days of the Pony and Stellar - That was when they were really really cheap motors. >> now they're pretty-much mainstream, and often a better bet than the European offerings. At European prices. See the correlation here? Trying to compare a real RR Evoque with a cheap Geeley copy for the chinese market is like trying to compare Apples to Longan (龍眼) Last edited by: Zero on Wed 26 Nov 14 at 16:14 Reply to this message | Report message

New Wed 26 Nov 14 17:09   The Chinese are cloning vehicles again - Enderman

I didn't intend to imply that it would be on sale in the UK - it was a hypothetical scenario. Except, perhaps, for the (no doubt now burgeoning) schoolrun carparks in China. And I do see the correlation that as their products have become more competitive with their European counterparts, Hyundai have taken the opportunity to increase their profits by charging more money. I doubt that the cost of manufacturing them has increased significantly - so they COULD have chosen to still sell them at a lower price. But then the public in general might still tar them with the 'cheap' epithet. So I suppose they'd be damned either way. Point is, it costs the same amount of money to press a sheet of steel into a body panel whether it's ugly or pretty. So there's no real reason why, potentially, Dacia couldn't have made the Duster with outward looks to match or better those of a Freelander. Or even an Evoque. The Chinese prove that it can be done. Dacia would just have to be clever enough not to make it obviously a direct copy. Reply to this message | Report message

New Wed 26 Nov 14 17:23   The Chinese are cloning vehicles again - DP

A few people have commented that LandWind were smart in cloning a vehicle from a manufacturer that they could match for reliability and build quality. ;-) Reply to this message | Report message

New Wed 26 Nov 14 17:38   The Chinese are cloning vehicles again - Zero

>> And I do see the correlation that as their products have become more competitive with >> their European counterparts, Hyundai have taken the opportunity to increase their profits by charging more >> money. At the time of the cheap pony they were not making ANY money, and have been bankrupt several times. >> I doubt that the cost of manufacturing them has increased significantly - so they COULD >> have chosen to still sell them at a lower price. The quality has, quality costs money >> Point is, it costs the same amount of money to press a sheet of steel >> into a body panel whether it's ugly or pretty. It does, but thicker steel costs more money, best designed structure and more steel and more sleds and more rustproofing and more sealing costs more money. >> So there's no real reason why, >> potentially, Dacia couldn't have made the Duster with outward looks to match or better those >> of a Freelander. Or maybe even have put Traction control, or stability control, or intelligent four wheel drive, or better interiors or climate control, even basic aircon, or even a ICE system of any kind. >> Or even an Evoque. The Chinese prove that it can be done. The Chinese have proven they make something look the same, it is in fact nothing like an evoque except the looks, and you are still comparing apples with lychees and claiming fruit should all be the same price. Reply to this message | Report message

New Wed 26 Nov 14 17:48   The Chinese are cloning vehicles again - rtj70

>> Hyundai have taken the opportunity to increase their profits by charging more money. >> I doubt that the cost of manufacturing them has increased significantly - I think you'll find they sell for more because they cost more to make. And the cost of labour in the Czech Republic (Hyundai) and Slovakia (Kia) is higher than the labour costs when they made the likes of the Pony etc. Reply to this message | Report message

New Wed 26 Nov 14 18:00   The Chinese are cloning vehicles again - Enderman

Point was that Evoque is largely a fashion accessory. Land Rover go to all the trouble of making their cars ACTUALLY perform extremely well off road, when 90% of them never get taken off road. So in the school carpark it's all about LOOKS and looks is wot the yummy mummy got the car for in the first place. If the Chinese can make a car that LOOKS the same, that's 80% of the job done. If it needs to actually go off road, cheap crude diff locks would provide more than enough ability for any use to which this vehicle would be put. The yummy mummies are superficial people. The car only has to superficially match the more expensive version. Reply to this message | Report message

New Wed 26 Nov 14 18:36   The Chinese are cloning vehicles again - Armel Coussine

Some posts have vanished from this thread. Is there a reason? Can't imagine what that would be, but it's mildly annoying anyway. Reply to this message | Report message       1

New Wed 26 Nov 14 18:45   The Chinese are cloning vehicles again - No FM2R

>>Some posts have vanished from this thread. Is there a reason? NOTHING to do with me. Reply to this message | Report message

New Wed 26 Nov 14 19:13   The Chinese are cloning vehicles again - Armel Coussine

>> NOTHING to do with me. Did anyone say it was FMR? Anyway it left you free to say the same things more or less, at much greater length. Tsk. Reply to this message | Report message

New Wed 26 Nov 14 19:17   The Chinese are cloning vehicles again - VxFan

>> Some posts have vanished from this thread. You're hallucinating again AC. I've just checked the RSS news feed and nothing is missing or has been deleted from this thread. You sure you're not looking at a Chinese clone of this forum instead? ;) Reply to this message | Report message       2

New Wed 26 Nov 14 19:23   The Chinese are cloning vehicles again - Armel Coussine

>> You sure you're not looking at a Chinese clone of this forum instead? ;) Perhaps, but I'm sure I remember saying I didn't fancy the Evoque and thought a half-price Chinese one might make a good buy for some people. Then Robin O'R asked if I had been at the sherry, and I asked him if he'd been believing racist bigots down the pub again, adding a grin so he wouldn't think I was calling him one. All gone without a word of explanation. Could there be a rogue moderator with hacking skills? Reply to this message | Report message

New Wed 26 Nov 14 19:25   The Chinese are cloning vehicles again - No FM2R

>>Could there be a rogue moderator with hacking skills? Or some bloke who has been on the sherry? www.car4play.com/forum/post/index.htm?v=t&t=18571&m=409493 www.car4play.com/forum/post/index.htm?v=e&t=18571&m=409496 Wrong thread, AC. Wrong thread. Last edited by: No FM2R on Wed 26 Nov 14 at 19:26 Reply to this message | Report message

New Wed 26 Nov 14 19:30   The Chinese are cloning vehicles again - Armel Coussine

>> Wrong thread. What a relief. Er... sorry I suppose. Damn. You're jolly clever at finding things FMR. I suppose you have to be when you live in a thinly populated thin country 4,000 km long. Reply to this message | Report message

New Wed 26 Nov 14 20:18   The Chinese are cloning vehicles again - MD

Narrow Reply to this message | Report message

New Wed 26 Nov 14 19:27   The Chinese are cloning vehicles again - VxFan

>> Perhaps, but I'm sure I remember saying I didn't fancy the Evoque and thought a >> half-price Chinese one might make a good buy for some people. Then Robin O'R asked >> if I had been at the sherry You posted it in the "check your licence" thread. That's why it's not here. www.car4play.com/forum/post/index.htm?t=18571&m=409493&v=e If I get time later, I'll try and stitch it into this thread. Edit - Mark beat me to it. Last edited by: VxFan on Wed 26 Nov 14 at 19:28 Reply to this message | Report message

New Wed 26 Nov 14 19:27   The Chinese are cloning vehicles again - No FM2R

Soooo slow. Reply to this message | Report message

New Wed 26 Nov 14 19:29   The Chinese are cloning vehicles again - VxFan

Doing 101 other things as well, that's why. Last edited by: VxFan on Wed 26 Nov 14 at 19:29 Reply to this message | Report message

New Wed 26 Nov 14 18:45   The Chinese are cloning vehicles again - No FM2R

Various Chinese brands are very common here and I've driven quite a few. They don't feel like they will fall apart, but they seem have been put together with the accuracy of Leyland. Various gaps, such as between body panels, or in the dashboards, or on the doors, vary. The cars seem to suffer wear quite badly. When new they didn't seem to fit together very well, and that seems to get worse with glove boxes not closing, mirrors wobbling, etc. etc. So, as I say, kind of like Leyland. But they are cheap, and they do look pretty good. So right now there is a market for such thinks, often amongst the aspirational. By the time the market tires of sub standard products, I suspect that the manufacturers will have grown and the products will no longer be immature. Pretty much as has previously happened with various Asian manufacturers over time. On another subject, I don't understand the disparaging comments about "yummy mummies". Car purchasing is typically not about looks, it is about perceived quality and aspirational desire. Where the words "perceived" and "aspirational" are very important. But I neither see that restricted to mothers, nor mostly involving mothers. Car purchasing is typically a fashion driven market, whoever is doing the buying. Perceptive and selective purchases are few and far between - that's why advertising works. Reply to this message | Report message

New Wed 26 Nov 14 18:47   The Chinese are cloning vehicles again - No FM2R

>>Point was that Evoque is largely a fashion accessory. Land Rover go to all the trouble of making their cars ACTUALLY perform extremely well off road, when 90% of them never get taken off road. Because the first level of aspiration is to have an "off road" SUV. The second level of aspiration is to have a "real" off road SUV, and the third to have an SUV that "real" offroaders (rich farmers) are envious of. You can charge more for the second, which only reinforces its position in the market. Reply to this message | Report message

New Wed 26 Nov 14 21:55   The Chinese are cloning vehicles again - DP

Badge is everything in this market in the UK. A "LandWind" will never command the price or desirability of a Land Rover product. It looks like what it is, a cheap knock-off. Reply to this message | Report message

New Wed 26 Nov 14 22:07   The Chinese are cloning vehicles again - MD

A Land Wind doesn't evoke a good feeling does it? Reply to this message | Report message

New Wed 26 Nov 14 22:09   The Chinese are cloning vehicles again - Runfer D'Hills

Does sound a bit dyspeptic. Reply to this message | Report message

New Wed 26 Nov 14 22:30   The Chinese are cloning vehicles again - rtj70

>> will never command the price or desirability of a Land Rover product. And the Evoque has RANGE ROVER on the bonnet. Reply to this message | Report message

New Wed 26 Nov 14 23:10   The Chinese are cloning vehicles again - Fullchat

Which, if you were really sad. you could also stick on a Land Wind bonnet. Reply to this message | Report message

New Wed 26 Nov 14 23:37   The Chinese are cloning vehicles again - Armel Coussine

... to go with the big red 'Turbo Twin Cam' decals you'd stuck down the sides, if you were really REALLY sad. Reply to this message | Report message

New Thu 27 Nov 14 00:19   The Chinese are cloning vehicles again - Enderman

>>>"Or maybe even have put Traction control, or stability control, or intelligent four wheel drive, or better interiors or climate control, even basic aircon, or even a ICE system of any kind." Er, it seems even the most basic £6k Sandero has Stability Control, Traction Control, and Emergency Brake Assist. (and tyre pressure monitoring) The Duster Laureate adds (amongst other things) alloys, cruise, aircon and onboard computer for £1500 more than the Duster Ambiance spec. Hyundai put aircon on an i10 for £660. And these are the costs to the end customer, not the manufacturer. Once you've got ABS, then ESC, TC, EBD, hill hold, hill descent, electronic-limited-slip-diff etc are largely just software, as is cruise. Once you've got basic aircon, climate is largely sensors, stepper-motor ducting flaps, and software. Adding these features doesn't force the manufacturers to add thousands and thousands to the price of the car; they choose to. Regards the spec of the Land Wind X7, for all I know it may well have most of the toys the Evoque has, but it is priced at less than half as much. >>>"the first level of aspiration is to have an "off road" SUV. The second level of aspiration is to have a "real" off road SUV, and the third to have an SUV that "real" offroaders (rich farmers) are envious of." Come on, NoFM, the Evoque must be about the least likely of any SUV to be taken off-road in real life. The cheapest, £29k, model is even 2WD only. I can't see many farmers being envious. Disparaging of the yummy mummy SUV brigade? Hmm... well I've been taking one or other kid to primary school on the odd occasion for about the past 14 years, so I've had time to observe their oneupmanship struggles. One of the funniest moments was when one got a second-hand Discovery 3. Made sure she got a non-dating plate slapped on it pronto, but then spoke to my wife - because she was a 'close-enough' friend to confide in - and actually APOLOGISED that she'd had to get a Discovery 3 because the Discovery 4's were slightly beyond her financial reach... That's the difference between her and my wife, who only usually remembers whether anyone's car is 'big' or 'small' and what colour it is... You're darn right that 'Range Rover' and 'Evoque' are what they desperately aspire to - to 'make an entrance' in. All I'm saying is that they didn't buy it because they required its sophisticated 4WD drivetrain - they wouldn't realise if they'd actually been sold a 2WD one. Seen on the other carriageway, or across the carpark, or passing the pavement cafe, by their clique-members or the general public, if a Land Wind (or some future Dacia) looks like, or as good/striking as, an Evoque, it will have done the job, until viewed close enough to judge the panel gaps. And if it was priced at only £14k brand new, it would, for example, have been within my wife's friend's financial reach, and thus would have soothed her terrible guilt. Last edited by: Enderman on Thu 27 Nov 14 at 00:23 Reply to this message | Report message       1