Organised criminal gangs are increasingly targeting high-end cars with keyless security systems, a motoring industry group has warned.
The thieves are acquiring equipment intended only for legitimate mechanics, the Society of Motor Manufacturers and Traders (SMMT) said.
Manufacturers are trying to stay ahead of the thieves by updating software.
www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-29786320
Some London-based owners of Range Rovers have been denied insurance over the issue.
www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/life/motoring/article4248707.ece
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To do this however, they need access to the inside of your car.
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How do they do it?
What a joke.
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I assume they either break into the car to access to OBD port or use a jammer to prevent the car from actually locking and then gain access to the OBD port.
The next we'll hear is how thieves are now using the 3D printers to create bump keys for Yale style locks using a photo of the lock to get the key's profile right. The proof of concept was shown earlier this year.
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I have never seen the advantage of keyless cars.
This news item has helped to confirm that view.
Honestly! what's it for?
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I love them. No faffing around with keys, just so I've the fob in my pocket. Excellent.
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I liked it when car keys went into a chrome lock in the centre of the dash and your bunch of other keys jangled gently as you drove along, their noises slightly muffled by their contact with the teardrop shaped leather key fob with the manufacturers logo. The angle they achieved on a tight bend was a sort of primitive but pleasing indicator of your bravery or stupidity however you wanted to look at it. That and the Feu Orange thingy also dangling from a light switch or choke knob. Getting them both at 45 degrees to the perpendicular simultaneously without destroying any hedges was a temporary if pointless hobby.
Double de-clutching too. I still do that sometimes for no reason at all.
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>>
>> Double de-clutching too. I still do that sometimes for no reason at all.
While braking on the downchanges too I hope.
Have to keep the old skills up :)
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The Westfield appreciated a bit of heel and toe. The Qashqai is much less keen on it.
;-)
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>> The Westfield appreciated a bit of heel and toe. The Qashqai is much less keen on it.
The Cruiser hates it too. The Arna I used to have absolutely loved it especially as the synchromesh had been damaged by previous drivers.
I hate the idea of keyless entry. Mechanical things are trustworthy. Electronic ones just go phut and you're, er, phutted.
Last edited by: Armel Coussine on Mon 27 Oct 14 at 18:57
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>>>Double de-clutching too. I still do that sometimes for no reason at all.
And without the clutch at all? It's important to keep the old skills alive!
Last edited by: Fenlander on Mon 27 Oct 14 at 16:07
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If you can't double declutch, pointless trying to drive my three wheeler. Clutchless? Not a chance, you'll be doing astoundingly well to get it out of gear, but you'll never engage another.
There is a key for the battery, but as you can start, and drive without it, not much of a security point. In any event, there is only one design of isolator key and it's a safe bet any real thief will carry one in case. Pointless adding an ignition key as you can start magneto engines as soon as you remove one wire from the magneto.
So away from home, often has a serious chain and padlock.
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>> >> Double de-clutching too. I still do that sometimes for no reason at all.
>>
>> While braking on the downchanges too I hope.
>> Have to keep the old skills up :)
In an automatic Mercedes estate?
I don't get keyless entry to be honest. Maybe keyless start.
An advantage of electronic handbrakes is it is more difficult to brake in an push the car onto a lowe loader to steal it - the brake won't release with the ignition off. Likewise the locking of an auto style transmission.
Last edited by: rtj70 on Mon 27 Oct 14 at 16:48
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Er, no, it's bit too much of a challenge to double de-clutch in the Merc.
Although I do randomly use either foot to brake in it for no justifiable reason other than the relief ( or some might reasonably suggest, creation ) of boredom.
;-)
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>> To do this however, they need access to the inside of your car.
Not necessarily. There was another link in that news article that says it can be done remotely.
www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-28886463
Mr Miller and Mr Valasek literally tore apart the cars they investigated to get at the Controller Area Network (Can) buried in its substructure.
If you can get access to that Can either physically or remotely you can essentially control the vehicle.
At the recent Def Con hacker conference in Las Vegas, the two IOActive researchers presented their latest work entitled, A survey of remote automotive attack surfaces.
It took a close look at the hackability of 21 separate vehicles. Everything from a Toyota Prius to a Range Rover Evoque.
The report found exploitable problems almost everywhere it looked - in wireless tyre pressure sensors, telematics controllers and even anti-theft systems.
Last edited by: VxFan on Mon 27 Oct 14 at 21:29
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This is all terrible.
We need to go back to the days where a double digit IQ scrote could drive away your car in 15 seconds with a pound shop screwdriver while off his face on White Lightning. It was better then.
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>> This is all terrible.
>>
>> We need to go back to the days where a double digit IQ scrote could
>> drive away your car in 15 seconds with a pound shop screwdriver while off his
>> face on White Lightning. It was better then.
The classy scroats used the one key flits all fords method. My old man was horrified when I moved his Cortina off the drive with my Capri key.
Last edited by: Zero on Mon 27 Oct 14 at 22:22
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My old man was
>> horrified when I moved his Cortina off the drive with my Capri key.
>>
I remember going to a lock out on a Mk 1 Fiesta. Before I got my big bunch of old keys or the parcel tape out I stuck the Nissan Patrol key in...just to see. It unlocked straight away.
The young lady owner thought i was a God................probably !
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I do remember unlocking the doors of some Austin my friend's parents had in the 70s with the end of a zip... No idea why we knew it would work but it did.
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>> This is all terrible.
>>
>> We need to go back to the days where a double digit IQ scrote could
>> drive away your car in 15 seconds with a pound shop screwdriver while off his
>> face on White Lightning. It was better then.
>>
R4's You and Yours covered this today. Despite the scaremongering over thefts of expensive cars by skilled operators car theft is down considerably over the last couple of decades. Bit of a pain if someone drives off in your 60 grand Flashwagon GTi but at least it's a simple insurance payout because you'll never see it again. Much better than having to get a bus to a dodgy estate in Custom House where plod eventually found your Capri, finding you had to buy a battery before you could recover it and having the oil light flickering on at tickover because to toerags who borrowed it had given it a combined Italian/Greek/Argentinian tune up.
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>>Bit of a pain if someone drives off in your 60 grand Flashwagon GTi
>> but at least it's a simple insurance payout because you'll never see it again.
>>
Exactly what happened to a friend.
His relatively s/h 7 series went. "Here is a crime number to give to the insurance company . You will never get it back".
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>> The report found exploitable problems almost everywhere it looked - in wireless tyre pressure sensors,
>> telematics controllers and even anti-theft systems.
But none of them were actually exploited because it was a theory.
As I said, to remote program keys, as the BBC article states, you need access inside the car. This is watchdog news reporting. Pretty short on reality but heavy on outrage.
Last edited by: Zero on Mon 27 Oct 14 at 21:57
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And as I said at 18.54,
"I hate the idea of keyless entry. Mechanical things are trustworthy. Electronic ones just go phut and you're, er, phutted.'
Almost everything said in this thread seems to endorse that view.
I agree with wicked old copper Ted. A really huge bunch of variegated car keys, and a sensitive jiggling hand, will get you into a proper real car in fairly short order. Pity I'm so moral really because I'm not a bad car thief at all and can even blag coppers off me while I'm doing it.
Not this modern electric carp though. Too dumb for that. Have to consult someone.
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And here's another old one. Down a Kensington alley which Humph will know, I once worked the remote door lock of I think my disgraceful Escort, but it might have been the Cruiser. Anyway the alarm on a nearby Jaguar went off, and the owner came out miffed to turn it off. I said what I thought had happened and offered to do it again so we would know. But the geezer didn't want me to, so I didn't. Struck me as very odd and rather stupid on his part.
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>> Not this modern electric carp though. Too dumb for that. Have to consult someone.
Wonder how the Sheikh is fixed for random scallywagging? That rangy youth, actually not really a youth when you get up close, with that battered laptop, sharp and chipped along its edges, swinging dangerously by a loop from one knobbly wrist.
You know where I rabbit Sheikha...
:o}
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A friend spent some years as a screw in a prison remand centre. His view was that it was the scrotes university with car theft a popular subject. Apparently there was a car where you could disable the sophisticated (for its day) alarm and immobiliser by removing a rear light bulb. Driving a car of this model with the appropriate rear light damaged was an automatic police stop. These were the days when we had traffic police. :)
Last edited by: Old Navy on Tue 28 Oct 14 at 08:51
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Well we had a Megane in 2003 with keyless go. No one tried to steal that ;-)
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>> Well we had a Megane in 2003 with keyless go. No one tried to steal
>> that ;-)
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I'll have you know it was faultless over 10 months and more than 3,000 miles... ;-)
It met a premature end after being shunted at high speed on the A3 by Volvo. It's replacement, a Megane CC, also had keyless go, and again no one tried to steal it... :-)
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Our second-hand S-Max came with Keyless entry & go. I couldn't see the point, and didn't want it, but the rest of the deal made sense. I suppose a 4+ year old Ford is not the kind of car these high-tec thieves will be targeting, but my worry is if the fear of it in the car market leads to the car being less sought after when we eventually sell it?
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Keyless entry is the best thing since hot MILFs. Of all the Lexus LS luxuries, that's the one thing I can't do without. No more faffing around for keys, no more struggling to get keys out with 6 bags of shopping, no more having to put down suitcases on the floor in the rain to unlock a door, no more taking out a key and aiming it at the car and pressing a blipper. Utter faff. The car locks and unlocks itself by just touching the handle. Life is heaven. It senses the key as I approach and the interior lights come on. It's inviting me. It wants me to slip inside and drive it.
Then I went and bought another Lexus six months ago - an RX - and it doesn't have keyless entry and it drives me crazy. Fumbling and faffing and blipping. I hate it. How my times have I walked away with the key still in the ignition? A lot. Did it again yesterday. Leave the supermarket get the key out, blip and it opens the tailgate, you load all the shopping, you sit down, fasten your belt, fire up the engine but... a damned key? Where's the damned key? In your damned pocket. You have to unfasten the belt, squirm and faff, try and rearrange your testicles but to no avail, you have to open the door, stand up, shake down your pants and locate the key. How many times have I stood there tapping the handle, expecting it to unlock the doors. A lot. How many times have I tapped the handle and walked away, leaving it unlocked. A lot.
I hate blippers. Awful damned dated things, go blip yourself. I love keyless entry. And it loves me.
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Door? What's one of those?
A real car looks like this:
www.slidingpillar.co.uk/images2/littleside.jpg
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>> Keyless entry is the best thing since hot MILFs. Of all the Lexus LS luxuries,
>> that's the one thing I can't do without. No more faffing around for keys, no
>> more struggling to get keys out with 6 bags of shopping, no more having to
>> put down suitcases on the floor in the rain to unlock a door, no more
>> taking out a key and aiming it at the car and pressing a blipper. Utter
>> faff. The car locks and unlocks itself by just touching the handle.
It's not like the door senses your presence and opens itself though - so you still need a hand to actually open the door!
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>> It's not like the door senses your presence and opens itself though
But there's a request button for opening the door. And some cars will auto lock when you walk away. Although the Mazda6 I tried wouldn't deadlock the doors.
Waving a foot under the rear bumper to open the boot must be handy when you've selected that option.
I prefer to use a key fob. And with the A3 I'm back to having to turn a key instead of stuffing the key fob in the dash slot. :-)
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"It's not like the door senses your presence and opens itself though - so you still need a hand to actually open the door!"
Of course not. That's the chauffeur option. It costs £35k a year.
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You don't of course, on the LS, need a hand to completely close the door, or at least not fully, as it shuts itself once it gets to nearly closed.
Pretty well pointless but great fun.
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I love that too Crankcase. I keep driving off with the driver's door partially open in the RX.
I agree it's pointless, the one good thing is leaving really early in the morning without slamming doors.
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Ah, but unless you have the hybrid version you still have to start the engine. (About the only time I purposefully put mine (Toyota, not Lexus) into EV mode is on the drive in the morning, as we leave before the neighbours are up and it seems only courteous, given it can be done.)
Last edited by: Crankcase on Wed 29 Oct 14 at 10:28
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One's butler takes care of chores like opening the door, surely?
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>> One's butler takes care of chores like opening the door, surely?
Only if one can't afford a chauffeur.
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I believe my chauffeur has employed his own butler for tasks such as this.
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I agree with BBD. Great life being keyless. I miss it a lot.
In 76,000miles, no problem. On at least three occasions I put my jacket in the back of the car on a hot day and got out. Pressed the handle button to walk away and the car squealed at me. What's up I thought, the b-thing is refusing to lock. Big sigh of relief when I realised why. How it knows the key signal is coming from inside the car, I have not established.
3 months on I too leave the key in the ignition occasionally, when running on auto, and get out fumbling in my pockets for it --- to lock the car. Concentrate, get with it, I scold myself, but it still happens. After 11 years use the brain cells are stuck.
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How it knows the key signal is coming from inside the car, I have not established.
Triangulation, I imagine. Two receivers would do it, three would be better. A key that's a metre from all three must be inside the car - or underneath, or on top, which would also be worth squealing about.
Last edited by: WillDeBeest on Mon 3 Nov 14 at 17:08
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Or perhaps range if the receiver is near the middle of the car?
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Seems you're mostly right.
This seems as clear as most..
www.thecarexpert.co.uk/how-smart-is-your-car-key/
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>> Or perhaps range if the receiver is near the middle of the car?
From using the Mazda6 system for a few days earlier this year, I concluded there were 3 sensors. One to handle each of the front doors and one for the boot. If you are stood at the boot and pressed the request switch it unlocked and opened. But a passenger at their door could not use their request switch.
So yes I think it uses triangulation. When I got out of the car with the key in my pocket it complained. A vaguely remember something about putting the key in the upholder. Not sure if it was that it would remind you by not locking or had a problem with the signal when it was in there.
Annoyingly the Mazda system did not deadlock the car if you programmed it to auto lock when you walked away. But with the key you had to press the button twice. Deadlock was not the default on my previous Mazda6 unlike VAG cars.
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Keyless cars becoming more of a thieves target - Zero
