Extreme example of the kind of idiocy every motorway user sees every day at junctions: complete failure to position a joining vehicle into a gap in the traffic on the motorway. All that distinguishes this one is that (a) the Honda driver wasn't lucky, and (b) there was a camera to capture it.
I suspect the Honda driver had had years of seeing traffic move over to lane 2 and got the idea that this was the norm, so never learned to look for and align with a gap. Lamentable.
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When will that man learn that Windsor knots are SO yesterday!
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At the bottom of the frame you can see the lorry drivers speed - is it my imagination or does the lorry take some time to slow down? OK, an emergency stop may not have been appropriate, ( undoubtably a lorry tight up his back side, on the M25).
Post accident justification of his actions shows he did the right thing, parking everything neatly on the hardshoulder, but if the outcome had been different, would he have been criticised?
Interesting that the woman interviewee regards it as ' a near miss'. Make sure that you do not park near her in a supermarket carpark.
Last edited by: sherlock47 on Thu 23 Oct 14 at 07:38
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Perhaps someone else can explain the reasons Sherlock, but for some reason, if you brake hard in that situation it sends the car spinning off into the other 2 lanes of traffic, so slow and measured is the order of the day.
If you know why, perhaps you can tell me!!
Pat
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>> Perhaps someone else can explain the reasons Sherlock, but for some reason, if you brake
>> hard in that situation it sends the car spinning off into the other 2 lanes
>> of traffic, so slow and measured is the order of the day.
>>
>> If you know why, perhaps you can tell me!!
>>
>> Pat
Its a smart and cool piece of driving. If you look closely at that clip, you will see the lorry driver deliberately keeps the car "trapped" in front of him, where under those circumstances its the safest place to be rather then be spun out into traffic to be broadsided.
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>> Its a smart and cool piece of driving. If you look closely at that clip,
>> you will see the lorry driver deliberately keeps the car "trapped" in front of him,
>> where under those circumstances its the safest place to be rather then be spun out
>> into traffic to be broadsided.
>>
I agree.
The driver appeared to know exactly what was the best way to deal with the situation.
It was almost as if he had trained to react in that way.
No following traffic got in the way. Apart from probably some some smoke from the car tyres, those following were probably totally unaware of the situation other than a truck drifting towards the hard shoulder.
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I guessed that something like that may happen, since the car may spin (or roll sideways) when the pushing force from the lorry is suddenly lost.
So it is taught/recommended behaviour on the part of the lorry driver? If so, what is the rec? I guess that modern lorries have sufficient 'cow catcher capability' to prevent the car going underneath?
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>> If you know why, perhaps you can tell me!!
It depends on the relative slowing effect of a lorry with its brakes on compared with a car scrubbing its tyres sideways. The lorry brakes are presumably the more efficient, so unless the lorry driver deliberately brakes very cautiously, the car will pull ahead opening up a gap.
Once the car is no longer safely trapped under the front of the lorry iit could go anywhere, probably into the next lane, as started to happen in the moments before they both stopped.
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>> Once the car is no longer safely trapped under the front of the lorry iit
>> could go anywhere, probably into the next lane, as started to happen in the moments
>> before they both stopped.
Yup - the truck driver had to adjust the angle a wee bit to keep it there.
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>> Once the car is no longer safely trapped under the front of the lorry it could go anywhere, probably into the next lane, as started to happen in the moments before they both stopped.
>> Yup - the truck driver had to adjust the angle a wee bit to keep
>> it there.
I have it on good authority that that particular lorry driver was actually one of the drivers in the "Top Gear Car Rugby at Twickers" video.
www.topgear.com/uk/videos/2789690729001
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I'm impressed the lorry driver so calmly worked out what best to do and executed that plan. The driver of the car was very fortunate.
I too thought the woman's 'near miss' comment was odd!
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>> The driver of the car was very fortunate.
Yes, only 4 flat spotted tyres, a couple of dents in the offside doors....
and most probably soiled underpants ;)
Last edited by: VxFan on Thu 23 Oct 14 at 10:31
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Hmmm...OK, very much caused by the Civic driver, BUT, the truck driver appeared to have no awareness that the Civic was there as he didn't back off in the slightest.
I know the Civic would have been in his blindspot at impact, but wouldn't he have seen it coming up the inside?
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He may have seen it coming up his nearside but he would think it was still accelerating once it went into his blind spot. I suspect the first time he realised there was a problem was feeling the impact. The camera will have a better field of view than the driver.
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>> He may have seen it coming up his nearside but he would think it was
>> still accelerating once it went into his blind spot. I suspect the first time he
>> realised there was a problem was feeling the impact. The camera will have a better
>> field of view than the driver.
That would be my guess too. The Honda actually seems to slow down in close vicinity to the truck. Either she lost it completely in her blind spot (mirrors not set correctly?) or she was first buffeted and then discombobulated by it's slipstream ?
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>> Hmmm...OK, very much caused by the Civic driver, BUT, the truck driver appeared to have
>> no awareness that the Civic was there as he didn't back off in the slightest.
>>
>> I know the Civic would have been in his blindspot at impact, but wouldn't he
>> have seen it coming up the inside?
Looked as cool as a cucumber to me. I wouldn't have expected him to back off before the impact.
When it did happen the lorry driver's reaction was perfect - I think he (or she) might even have moved right slightly to 'capture' the Civic before pushing it onto the hard shoulder. He should get a RoSPA commendation for that, I hope the car driver understands that he probably saved her life.
You can't be backing off for every person trying to join from a slip road, when you know there is a space ahead that the car is perfectly capable of accelerating into, and that it is that driver's decsion whether to speed up or slow down to merge.
We all know what happens when you back off for ditherers - half the time they slow down as well, instead of joining ahead of you.
All I want when I join is a gap big enough, as long as the traffic in lane one holds station I'll deal with it.
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>> You can't be backing off for every person trying to join from a slip road,
>>
If one is already on the motorway, one could always move into lane 2 before the junction.
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>>
>> If one is already on the motorway, one could always move into lane 2 before
>> the junction.
>>
Why? There is a give way double dotted line at the end of a junction slip road, but not a merge junction. There is usually too much traffic to move over if the motorway is two lane or you are south of Carlisle.
Last edited by: Old Navy on Thu 23 Oct 14 at 15:48
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>> Why? There is a give way double dotted line at the end of a junction
>> slip road, but not a merge junction. There is usually too much traffic to move
>> over if the motorway is two lane or you are south of Carlisle.
Not always the case, I often find room to slide over and let traffic join.
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>>
>> Why?
Maybe to avoid crashing?
>> There is a give way double dotted line at the end of a junction
>> slip road,
Oh no there isn't.
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But on a busy motorway that just compounds the problem, forces traffic in the lanes to the right to slow, and sends a wave of retardation backwards along the motorway. It's precisely why traffic grinds to a standstill at junctions at busy times. Stay in lane, maintain speed with a decent gap in front and everyone keeps moving.
Joining drivers can do their bit by not bunching up. Simple enough, if you give it a moment's thought.
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Joining drivers can do their bit by ruddy hitting the motorway slip at a decent speed. A timid 50 mph wont cut it. You can loose speed faster than you make it up, so have some MPH in your pocket I say,
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As a lorry driver I like to see someone coming down a slip road with a purpose.
It tells me he knows what he's doing and that he's going to slot in front of me, so I'll ease off a bit and he goes straight into the middle lane and away.
Job done!
Ditherers are the ones to be wary off.
Pat
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>>
>> Ditherers are the ones to be wary off.
>>
Yes - it's easy to imagine how if the truck driver had backed off then the car might have done too, and you could end up with both vehicles stopped.
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>> >> You can't be backing off for every person trying to join from a slip
>> road,
>> >>
>>
>> If one is already on the motorway, one could always move into lane 2 before
>> the junction.
One could, and one sometimes does. I do it routinely when I am blocking nobody, it reduces risk for me and helps somebody else.
But it isn't necessarily a sensible thing to do if if holds up faster traffic. Why transfer the slip road problem on to the main carriageway? That's not what motorways are about. There's also a world of difference between an agile car and a loaded, speed restricted LGV.
And it is usually unnecessary. Always unnecessary in fact, if the joiners are competent. All that is reasonable is to leave a big enough space.
Why do so many people have difficulty with the idea that it is the joiner who must merge or give way?
Frankly, in terms of her driving, she was 100% responsible there.
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Great mind think alike (and post at the same time) Manatee!
Pat
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>>Great mind think alike (and post at the same time) Manatee!
:)
To suggest that the driver in lane one should merge in to lane two (x the number of junctions he passes?) so that the driver on the slip doesn't have to merge into lane one is the logic of the mad house.
Anyway you can't tell other people how to drive by telepathy. You speed up so they can slot in behind, and they race you. You slow down to let them in, and they slow down. You move into lane two and they cut you up by leaving lane one immediately (that's the slow lane you know).
Best to make sure there's space ahead of you, and avoid doing anything unpredictable. The rest is up to them, though I'll try to avoid them if they are determined to make contact.
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>> Great mind think alike
Great minds only have to focus on this stuff when someone else screws it up.
A couple of times over the years I've seen people in lane 1 on a motorway deliberately matching speed with a slip-lane joiner to obstruct them and force them to stop. Usually incompetence, once in a blue moon dangerous monkeying around.
I don't agree by the way that moving into lane 2 before a junction causes a reverse buffer slowing down effect in that lane. Surely when you nip into a gap in a faster lane you boot your jalopy instantly up to the correct speed? It's all a matter of how it's done. If you simply waddle into a gap without accelerating and force others to back off or brake, you're a ******* **** who ought to be banned.
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Yes but no but...if you are the lorry in the fillum, you won't be doing any sprightly accelerating will you?
And if you are driving for hours, are you going to merge into lane 2 for every junction just so dozens of others don't have to bother to do it once? I will if I have ready access to that lane, otherwise not.
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>> I will if I have ready access to that lane, otherwise not.
Well of course Dugong... when a motorway is very congested you can't do much nipping from lane to lane, and it usually isn't worth it. Conditions dictate speed to a large extent.
Obviously trucks can't nip in the same way that cars can. You have to make allowances for them.
Last edited by: Armel Coussine on Thu 23 Oct 14 at 16:22
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>> Obviously trucks can't nip in the same way that cars can. You have to make allowances for them.
That applies anyway to heavily laden HGVs and lurching farm trucks full of livestock. But some 5 and 7 ton trucks when empty or lightly laden can be very sprightly indeed, terrific vehicles to share the road with.
It's obvious that the faster, more capable vehicle and/or driver has to defer to the less capable. There's no rush, it'll soon be past and away. 'Steam gives way to sail', innit?
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Although no one here would admit to it, if you cock up a slip road merge the hard shoulder usually makes a good escape route, and you should be going fast enough to need it.
Last edited by: Old Navy on Thu 23 Oct 14 at 16:22
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>> if you cock up a slip road merge the hard shoulder usually makes a good escape route, and you should be going fast enough to need it.
Happened to me a couple of times, and no one likes running fast onto a hard shoulder, nasty place strewn with glass and half-bricks.
These days I don't try to hurry, so much more relaxing. Humph is spot on about body language of course, as I have remarked myself in the past... I haven't attempted serious press-on stuff for years. I like to think I could still do it, but I don't want to know enough to bother checking, if you see what I mean.
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Manatee makes a brilliantly simple point that hadn't occurred to me before. In a single motorway trip you might pass ten junctions, but you join only once. So it's reasonable to give way that once to those already there, then simply to leave space for future joiners to fit in around you.
My rule, which I wish everyone would use, is that if the joiner on the sliproad is ahead of me, I'll expect it to accelerate into the gap I've left; if it's level or behind, it's slotting in behind me. The ones I end up obliged to pull out for start ahead of me but dither when they should boot it and pull out. Rather than get stuck in a Dutch speed auction that leaves me boxed in at 35, I'll move over to let them waddle out, channelling AC as I do so.
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The one I remember is the little old lady who stopped in front of me on a slip road to wait for a gap in the motorway traffic. That tested my brakes. :)
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>> Manatee makes a brilliantly simple point
Why, thank you.
And if I may say so, I think you are equally brilliant in your comments about moving into lane two. Even executed cleanly by a motoring elder statesman like AC, all it takes is A Lert three cars back sensibly to dab the brakes as a precaution and the wave effect does the rest.
Steady and well spaced does it when it's busy. If you want to join, play the game. It's not difficult, but I know a lot of people think it is. They should either get trained or hand in their tickets.
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I've never allowed "being right" to be a good excuse to potentially exacerbate a tricky situation. If there's room to move over to allow an easier, safer merge by a joiner I move over.
You can just tell by the "body language" of other vehicles whether they are being driven by someone competent or otherwise. But if in doubt I assume they are a blind, drunk, psychopath with suicidal tendencies and stay out of their way.
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I never disagreed with that. No point being right when you are rammed amidships.
This is the grave of Mike O'Day
Who died maintaining his right of way.
He was right, dead right, as he sped along,
But he's just as dead as if he'd been wrong.
But helping people doesn't always help them, especially if they are ditherers. As much chance of confusing them.
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You are both absolutely right Runfer and Manatee!
Pat
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I am sure I have mentioned this before but when I took my IAM test and joined the motorway, I noticed that lanes 1 & 2 were occupied by HGVs and would be ahead of me at the point of joining. There was a smallish gap before the next HGVs also in lanes 1 & 2. Lane 3 was clear, apart from a car travelling at an estimated 75 approaching the joining slip road, so I gunned it to 85/90 on the slip and joined safely between the HGVs and before the car travelling at 75. No one had to brake or change lanes. Not that the HGVs could have.
To be honest, I though that could have been a fail, but my examiner commented on it afterwards, duly noting that I slowed to 70 after the joining manoeuvre and said it showed a positive attitude to all concerned. Good judgement of speed & distance no less.
I wish all my driving was as good. It isn't .
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One instance I recall down near Besancon I pulled out into lane 2 to make space for joining traffic only to see the lorry that had been following me accelerate and close the gap. Except on the periphique (where the inside lane seems to be solely for joining and leaving traffic) the French rely on the joiner finding and getting into the gap.
These people need to drive in France once or twice just so they realise what priority / give way means.
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>> only to see the lorry that had been following me accelerate and close the gap.
Presumably it was an ickle lorry? The big ones don't do acceleration, more of a slow crawl.
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How not to merge on a Motorway. - WillDeBeest
