He only asked for it to be locked not hidden!
We should be told.
Last edited by: sherlock47 on Sun 20 Apr 14 at 19:01
|
The idiotic, immature pfd decided to ask a dramatic "look at me" question, but then wussed it when all and sundry decided he was an irresponsible pfd, so he pleaded for his rather sad thread to be deleted and one of the more reactionary mods hid it.
Or at least, that's my guess.
Last edited by: VxFan on Mon 21 Apr 14 at 01:39
|
Perhaps every time the pfd asks yet another ridiculous question, we should check whether or not this will be yet another thread that he will ask to be hidden when it gets uncomfortable, before anyone puts any effort into considering the point.
Because this wasn't the first time.
Last edited by: VxFan on Mon 19 May 14 at 01:39
|
|
I hid it -purely at his request.
|
He may be silly at times but I always enjoy his sagas and judging by the number of posts they engender so do others. He seems to have enough problems in his life without people insulting him on here so I don' t blame him for asking to have his post hidden.
There seems to be an increasing amount of what is simply abuse on this forum these days. Is this no longer a matter for moderation?
|
>> He seems to have enough problems in his life without people insulting him on here so I don' t blame him for asking to have his post hidden.
So, your assumption is that he asked it for to be hidden because he was being insulted?
Because as far as I could see he was merely getting the answers he specifically requested but didn't like them.
He opened a door into an oncoming car and wanted to know how he could dodge responsibility for it since he was drunk but not mature enough to cope with being drunk.
He didn't like being told to "man up" so he asked for it all to be sent away.
I wonder how that works out when he's talking to real people. Perhaps that's why he doesn't.
|
I suspect that in the cold light of day he realised that his post was ill considered and was best forgotten.
Calling people immature idiotic prats on a forum is uncalled for and unhelpful.
|
>>Calling people immature idiotic prats on a forum is uncalled for and unhelpful.
If someone posted something worthy of respect and admiration, I would mention it without issue.
As I would if they posted something ridiculous.
Its a reality of life, take ownership and responsibility for what you do and say. That doesn't mean you won't screw up, that doesn't mean you won't improve. But why should anybody else modify their behavior around your mistakes?
Do any of you do it around mine? ( I hope not).
|
>> Do any of you do it around mine? ( I hope not).
Well of course. I just hovered for some time over the post button before retracting it. Post in haste repent at leisure, all that.
So now you won't know what I was going to say, because I didn't want to then spend eternity justifying it to you, Mark.
I suspect, but have no way of knowing, there may be others who choose not to comment on these kind of faintly intemperate posts but that doesn't mean their online behaviour isn't shaped by their opinions.
|
>>because I didn't want to then spend eternity justifying it to you, Mark.
Am I that bad? I don't see it that way.
I'll stand by anything I post, including apologising if I screwed up.
I don't see that I expect anything else from others.
|
|
Yeah - Mark will apologise. The only thing I'll say is I rarely if ever edit anything on here, I remember in HJ's day we were forever doing it. One thing that stuck in my mind from the old place was if a poster wanted anything removed we did it.
|
>>Am I that bad?<<
Sometimes, you do seem to get something of a kick out of putting down others, or atleast that is how it comes across online.
Rattle might be a whiny so and so but there is no real harm in him and ive no doubt that you know berating him wont change him at all, so knowing that, why would you do it?
|
>> so knowing that, why would you do it?
I wrote a long, and somewhat pompous reply. And then deleted it which was probably one of my better decisions.
Because if one chooses to behave like an pfd, than one should accept being treated as an pfd. And all anybody interceding on one's behalf does is shield one from the ramifications of one's own pfd-ishness.
A bit more personal responsibility is what this world needs;
Especially amongst those who choose to go out and get drunk when they are not grown up enough to keep themselves and others safe while they do it.
Last edited by: VxFan on Mon 19 May 14 at 01:39
|
BTW, just so people understand, to my way of thinking band-wagon jumping (i.e thumbs up or frownies) says far more about your courage with your own convictions than it does about mine.
And it'll be a cold day in hell before I worry about popularity over my principles.
|
>>Because if one chooses to behave like an pfd than one should accept being treated as an pfd<<
So OK, Rattle is not grown up, whats your excuse? This temper tantrum of a thread is ridiculous.
Last edited by: VxFan on Mon 19 May 14 at 01:39
|
>>Rattle is not grown up, whats your excuse? This temper tantrum of a thread is ridiculous.
No excuse, nor do I feel the need for one, although I don't agree with your assessment of this thread really. Rattle behaved, in my opinion, as an pfd. He was deservedly, in my opinion, treated as one. Seems pretty clear, really.
I sometimes, albeit vaguely, prefer that I hadn't react strongly to something, even though it was honestly done, but on the other hand I'm old enough to know that I'm doing it.
One accepts and lives with the consequences of one's own behaviour. Or at least, I do.
Last edited by: VxFan on Mon 19 May 14 at 01:38
|
>> He seems to have enough problems in his life without people insulting him on here so I don' t blame him for asking to have his post hidden.
>>
>> There seems to be an increasing amount of what is simply abuse on this forum these days. Is this no longer a matter for moderation?
>>
I hope what I posted isn't regarded as abuse.
I did post a comment previously, but decided it wasn't in the best taste (it was meant as a lighthearted joke) so deleted it.
I then decided to post what I did, not to upset him, but because I have seen people start the slide down that slippery slope to alcoholism, and I firmly believe (if 1/2 what he posts, is true regarding his drinking, and the way he sometimes posts, does point to being well drunk) that he could well be starting the slide.
I would not wish that on anyone - not even Zero. :-)
|
In fact, because I am quite annoyed;
Rattle, every time you post *any* question in the future, I will immediately ask if the thread will be long lasting, or you will weep and beg to the moderators for deletion if you see anything you don't like.
...and we all know I am an irritating, obsessive git who has a great deal of time on his hands.
|
If he wants it hidden, then he should not post a thread that requests other people to comment.
Clearly he puts as much thought into starting a thread as he does into working out whether or not he is man enough to drink.
I am annoyed.
|
|
Although I am surprised that RP hid it, since I would not regard him as "one of the more reactionary mods".
|
|
:-( :-) - that's me being passive/aggressive...!
|
|
I've never really mastered the "passive" side.
|
Doesn't a site like this encourage allcomers? Aren't we all different? Is it really necessary to call someone a pfd on here?
All that will happen is more and more people will stop posting.
I think you should request your comments be deleted.
Last edited by: VxFan on Mon 19 May 14 at 01:40
|
>>I think you should request your comments be deleted.
That'll happen.
If the mods want them hidden, then they will be hidden. If I *wanted* them hidden, then I should have had more sense than to write them.
|
|
p.s. come back Zero, I've picked up the git-torch so you're welcome again.
|
I feel you have taken this a bit too much to heart FMR. Sure, the Sheikh needs to be teased and shoved about sometimes, but he doesn't deserve a savage kicking. It's his nature to faff and fall about. He's shy and gauche.
So are many of us, or anyway so we once were.
As for his incipient alcoholism, I'm sure it does him more good than harm. I find it invaluable in my own case.
|
AC,
And how much do you seek to avoid responsibility for your behaviour? Rather the opposite I feel. Its called being a grown-up.
I don't necessarily like how you are, but I respect that you always take responsibility for your own behaviour.
|
>>I feel you have taken this a bit too much to heart FMR
And perhaps you are correct, but it is something that genuinely bothers me.
Southern counties always do.
|
|
However, I can't see that I can, or need, to pursue my point any further. People will agree or not.
|
"...I can't see that I can, or need, to pursue my point any further."
Thank goodness.
"People will agree or not."
Quite.
Both the initial post and the reactions to it were probably ill-considered - for different reasons. Uncomfortable reading.
|
>> However, I can't see that I can, or need, to pursue my point any further.
Something to be thankful for then.
You started off by putting the boot in, then made a further 16 posts justifying it. Are you protesting rather too much?
You call it honesty, principles, whatever. Sometimes it looks more like bullying.
|
Why say ""Something to be thankful for then." and then carry the discussion on, especially with a question?
Why complain about my 16 notes or whatever it is of justification/explanation, and then ask for more?
Last edited by: No FM2R on Sun 20 Apr 14 at 22:57
|
>> Why say ""Something to be thankful for then." and then carry the discussion on, especially
>> with a question?
>> Why complain about my 16 notes or whatever it is of justification/explanation, and then ask
>> for more?
I'm sure you can spot a rhetorical question when you want to.
|
Ideally this sort of forum should be a group of people who gather round as friends if someone has a problem, rather than putting the boot in.
I remember a few years ago asking, in a slightly tongue-in-cheek musing, why it was that even a 1950s Austin could start and be ready to go in a second, whereas computer software takes long enough to get going as would disgrace even a Ford Popular.
Several people thought I was a complete plonker even to ask; but Rattle gave a thoroughly professional, un-patronising answer explaining the reasons.
I won't forget that.
(Software has got quicker recently, but it's still not as quick to start as a car - and modern cars have plenty of software in them!)
|
OK, here's my twopenn'orth,
I say thingsin this forum, mainly of a political nature, with which quite a few of you disagree and are not shy of telling me so. Sometimes the responses are personal and acidic .
I'm a big boy - well, an old boy - and I am able to let unpleasantness wash over me, or make an equally acidic retort.
I do not think that our young fellow forum member, has a tough enough skin not to be affected by many of the derogatory comments in this particular thread and I say, categorically, that if I was a moderator on this forum, I would delete the whole thread..
|
Remember Rats is from a younger and different generation from most of us. Social media where they bare all is in their time. We (rightly) treat it with scepticism. I believe the creation of this thread is just such an example.
However if you don't like the content of a thread why not just ignore it?
|
>> if you don't like the content of a thread why not just ignore it?
I'm with ^this^ geyser.
|
>> >> if you don't like the content of a thread why not just ignore it?
>>
>> I'm with ^this^ geyser.
I'm glad you understand that then, because I don't.
You don't have to like a thread to have a view on it. And most are a curate's egg anyway.
|
>>You don't have to like a thread to have a view on it. And most are a curate's egg anyway.
True but, some eggs are more orf than others ;)
|
>> Remember Rats is from a younger and different generation from most of us. Social media
>> where they bare all is in their time. We (rightly) treat it with scepticism. I
>> believe the creation of this thread is just such an example.
>> However if you don't like the content of a thread why not just ignore it?
>>
I think it's exactly because 'his generation' grew up with social media that he should know better. Kids today are well aware what happens once they've posted; they might not think through the consequences but by the time they're a but older they do. Certainly by their early twenties a bit more circumspection is apparent. So why Rattle treats this site differently is a mystery. I'm not sure Marck Zuckerberg would respond to his demands for stuff to be removed quite so swiftly ;-)
Though I also suspect Rattle is actually slightly to old to be truly from the social media generation. I'm guessing he was born in the early to mid 80's so left school in what, late '90s or early '00s? The use of mobiles among teenagers wasn't anywhere near as prevalent as it is now, let alone web based social media sites, so he really should know better!!
|
Rattle should think before posting in future. I know this thread is avoiding saying Rattle.... but we all know it relates to him. And if this gets censored through a request of his (this is not his thread) then what does that say about this site.
I wish Rattle all the best - he alluded to something before his thread was hidden.
|
>> I do not think that our young fellow forum member
Rattle is about 30 years old. Not that young. Old enough to get/have a mortgage on a house. Before 40 I was lucky enough to be able to be mortgage free. The sooner Rattle starts the better. We have now saved money for a place overseas via various means (some matured savings etc).... and only 4 years after getting rid of a mortgage. It can be done.
Last edited by: rtj70 on Mon 21 Apr 14 at 00:19
|
I haven't been on forum for a few days and so I am seeing a thread all about another forum member, regarding a thread that isn't actually visible for me to see!
So its a thread about a thread that's not a thread anymore!!
And we want to attract new members to this forum???
|
>> And we want to attract new members to this forum???
How will that happen though? I'm not sure there's a plan for that to be honest. It's been running for over 4 years with the same central members and few new ones.
But it's hosted on spare capacity of Khoo Systems (well this forum is going to take little resources with so few members). And it does generate some income for Stephen. Not much but it consumes little/no extra overhead. Probably a fraction of a server in a data centre in the north of England somewhere.
Taxis and Rattle were more interesting than my post!
|
>> I do not think that our young fellow forum member, has a tough enough skin not to be affected by many of the derogatory comments in this particular thread and I say, categorically, that if I was a moderator on this forum, I would delete the whole thread..
No one's invulnerable Rastaman, but surely the Sheikh has enough brains and stoicism not to be destroyed by a few rude remarks? I often tease him and he doesn't seem too worried by it.
|
I was up in the middle of the night last night for an hour trying to will a couple of painkillers to work and saw The thread just after it was posted. There were no replies and I had an opinion on it which I almost posted but realised it was coloured by my discomfort and lack of sleep.
I looked in the morning and saw a couple of constructive replies and thought it would develop during the day.
When I finally got back on here it was missing without trace at tea time! Now I can see why.
Life isn't a trial run at the real thing, there's no practice session and what you do in terms of making decisions, is important.
Rattle chose to make the post (albeit through the bottom of a beer glass) and part of growing up is learning to face up to your own decisions, or think before making them.
The post should have stayed, but the fault is not with the mods, Rattle shouldn't have asked for it to be removed.
Life isn't like that where most of us live.
Pat
|
|
Many other sittes (pprune for one) have the possibility to edit or delete posts indefinitely, which may or may not be a good thing. I imagine this is a feature of the software but could the 3 minutes we have here not be extended to something a bit longer?
|
Your example of prune is the best example of why not. Deleted postings cause confusion when other posts have referred back to them. making it almost impossible to follow.
Extended edit time can also lead to confusion if the OP decides to modify 'post answer'.
I think the 3 minute period could be extended subject to no answer having been posted (or even started?).
Last edited by: sherlock47 on Mon 21 Apr 14 at 09:00
|
>> Your example of prune is the best example of why not. Deleted postings cause confusion
>> when other posts have referred back to them. making it almost impossible to follow.
>>
>> Extended edit time can also lead to confusion if the OP decides to modify 'post
>> answer'.
>>
>> I think the 3 minute period could be extended subject to no answer having been
>> posted (or even started?).
>>
Agree with Sherlock about pprune though I think what he describes is part of a wider thing about how that site functions. A serious incident, never mind something on scale of MH 304, generates literally thousands of posts. A lot are removed by the mods for reasons of speculation, repetition and strong evidence that posters posing as pilots have no experience beyond MS flight sim.
Cyclechat allows a long edit interval which doesn't seem problematic but again it's a big site with multiple moderators 'on watch' 24/7.
The edit time here could be longer though, enough to allow full correction of mistypes and 'subbing' wording without damaging the continuity over much.
|
I agree with Pat. Rattle's not exactly young anymore so should be well aware that if you post on a public forum you have to expect responses, and responses that you might not like. It's a bit naive to think you keep control once you've posted, and IMO it's unfortunate that the post was hidden at his request because he'll continue to believe that problems can be made to go away, rather than putting some thought or effort in preventing them in the first place! Unfortunately in real life there are sometimes unintended or unwanted consequences to actions, and there's not always someone else to make things better...
Though when I read his post I though he just asked for it to be locked, not hidden...
|
|
He sent me an e-mail asking me to remove it.
|
To the best of my recollection, Rattle has never insulted other forum members and is usually polite even when in drink.
He may sometimes reveal too much of himself or his affairs and subsequently ask for posts to be deleted, which is mildly annoying but I think it is reasonable to comply with that request.
I shouldn't have needed to, but I have just made a point of reporting the second post in this thread which is offensive and insulting to a forum member.
NoFM2R could have made his point without referring to another member as an idiotic, immature [----]. I don't understand why the noun was deleted and the adjectives left in place.
Do we really think it is acceptable to talk about other members like that?
This whole thread should go, now, so we can go back to being civilised.
|
"Do we really think it is acceptable to talk about other members like that? "
Personal insults have unfortunately become more prevalent over recent weeks. A note from the moderators reminding offenders of the house rule would be appropriate.
|
>> "Do we really think it is acceptable to talk about other members like that? "
>>
>> Personal insults have unfortunately become more prevalent over recent weeks. A note from the moderators
>> reminding offenders of the house rule would be appropriate.
>>
I agree fully.
I've lost count of the times I have written a post, and then deleted it because of the tedious sniping and insulting responses of a few forum members. Z and AC deserve a dishonourable mention here.
I generally value Mark's posts, because he's one of the very few clear thinking members of this forum, but, insults detract from this quality.
|
>> I've lost count of the times I have written a post, and then deleted it because of the tedious sniping and insulting responses of a few forum members. Z and AC deserve a dishonourable mention here.
I don't think that's true N_C. You are exaggerating at the very least. I don't snipe and I don't insult people, and if I did it certainly wouldn't be 'tediously'.
I could expand on tedium in this connection, but I won't. It would be sure to lead to a lot more tedium.
|
Well I got the rough side of your tongue! I take this as insulting. "Yes, he's a nasty sour character, or posing as such"
|
>> the rough side of your tongue!
I thought we had explained that misunderstanding to each other Meldrew. I didn't even register that the post I took offence at was a reply to someone else!
Look, it would be absurd to claim my tongue doesn't have a rough side. But I'm certainly not alone in that. And I go to some trouble not to seem insulting or offensive to people who appear fragile.
Sheikh Rattleandroll is not one of these. He seems a model of stability and stoicism. More generally though, are we supposed to refrain from saying things here because some weak sister might burst into tears and run wailing to teacher? I thought we were adults.
|
>>are we supposed to refrain from saying things here because some weak sister might burst into tears and run wailing to teacher? I thought we were adults.
It would appear (to me) that some peeps are more adult than others.
:-)
|
I think not but no matter - it was a week ago and I wasn't aware of any discussion or apology, either way so let's leaave it there.
|
2:31
If you could change one thing - Armel Coussine
>> I tried to make a short point and have been given earache by AC
Apologies Meldrew. I was affronted, wrongly perhaps, by yr very cryptic post on that poem, and was of course unaware of the tragic events in your family. It's always a mistake to react emotionally to what people put here, and I have just made it again.
I suppose I should risk coming clean here. The poem is by my father, the subject my younger (by less than a year) brother who managed to poison himself at the age of two, being an enterprising child. My parents blamed themselves subsequently. I think the poem is moving. It may not be absolutely perfect in form, but very few poems are. I'm sure you can understand that its attribution to a lady doggerel writer could have caused irritation.
The old man was a far better poet than I am. Another of his verses elicited a flood of letters from the parents of missing pilots during the battle of Britain and after it.
I don't really understand why N_C has chosen to put the boot in. I thought I was OK with him despite our ongoing squabble about yaw stability.
Reply to this message | Report message
Fri 18 Apr 14 13:23
If you could change one thing - Meldrew
Return apologies too! Perhaps I misread some of the poems. I said that The Boy stood on the Burning Deck was written by Mrs. Felicia Dorothea Hemans. We are at cross purposes or my information is incorrect. My post at 1520 was in reply to Mike Hannon's of 1052. My information was "The poem 'Casabianca' was written by Mrs. Felicia Dorothea Hemans. It starts out with the well known line, "the boy stood on the burning deck".
I was making not denigrating any poem you had posted and I am sorry if you got that impression, wrongly.
Reply to this message | Report message
Short memory comrade...
|
|
Water under the bridge, near the burning deck, new things to worry about in a stressful retirement. Memory overload
|
>> stressful retirement. Memory overload
Excuses, excuses... but we mustn't bind on for too long. It would embarrass the Sheikh.
|
|
At my age all excuses are reasons - LOL!
|
>>More generally though, are we supposed to refrain from saying things here because some weak
>> sister might burst into tears and run wailing to teacher?
Well, yes actually. Or at least consider what we say and its likely effect, especially as it's far easier to do that when writing than talking, and it's harder to take something back when it comes out wrong.
>> I thought we were adults.
No need always to walk on eggshells.
Bantering adults accept and overlook the odd bad tempered snap, especially when a quick apology follows.
The thing is, we know each other and we don't; the internet separates as well as connecting us.
|
>> we know each other and we don't; the internet separates as well as connecting us.
Yes, it's a pretty lethal place. Very easy to be misunderstood, and one can't help forming images which must often be wildly inaccurate.
It's fairly important to focus exactly on what people say, not just on the gist which can mislead. Even then what is written may be misleading in itself. It's all a bit approximate, and without goodwill squabbles arise out of nothing.
|
>> I thought we were adults.
We are, absolutely.
But, participating in a forum like this is supposed to be a pleasure, not a chore.
Perhaps a little more thought and restraint might make this place a bit more inviting for new contributors, and might make the place ever so slightly more interesting.
|
>>I don't think that's true N_C
How on Earth can you say that? You aren't looking over my shoulder; you don't see what I do with my computer. Yet you seem able to pronounce as if you did.
|
>>How on Earth can you say that? You aren't looking over my shoulder; you don't see what I do with my computer. Yet you seem able to pronounce as if you did.
You may have read that wrong NC, he's saying "I don't snipe and I don't insult people"
|
>> he's saying "I don't snipe and I don't insult people"
I didn't take that bit seriously!
|
>> I didn't take that bit seriously!
I doubt that you can find many examples of me 'sniping' or insulting people N_C. It's true I am sometimes a bit acerbic, even rude, when goaded. But so are others.
However in the present thread you've singled out Zero and me as examples of people whose gratuitously unpleasant posts frighten people away, including you apparently. Zero has hardly said a word and what he did say was appeasing. My own posts have been kind and supportive to Rattle while maintaining a distance.
Yet you single out FMR as an example of your sort of chap, one of the few rational thinkers on the site you claim in rather de haut en bas fashion. FMR if you remember has put the boot into Rattle repeatedly using somewhat immoderate language. Meaning no harm of course but causing the atmosphere you and others are complaining about.
I can do de haut en bas too. There's a damn sight more to rationality than the narrow conception you find in the natural sciences and their associated technologies comrade.
Sheveral mishtakesh shurely?
|
>> you find
Again, you try to judge me. You know nothing about me. Yet you feel you can write that?
My views and comments which I wrote above are more general observations, and not directly linked to how people have responded to Rattle in this thread.
|
|
Perhaps you can help us with the F1 thread N_C - have you any interest in F1?
|
>> Again, you try to judge me. You know nothing about me. Yet you feel you
>> can write that?
With respect Number_Cruncher are you not guilty of the same here...
''I generally value Mark's posts, because he's one of the very few clear thinking members of this forum, but, insults detract from this quality.''
Unless of course you have met and know Mark.
Pat
|
>> you find
Tsk! One finds. I wasn't talking about your attitudes but about certain disciplines.
It isn't quite the case that I know nothing about you. Not a lot of course, but not nothing either. You do seem to take offence quite easily thinking words are being put in your mouth or thoughts in your head.
I suppose it's equivalent to me thinking I have been misunderstood and wishing people could read properly. Probably makes us both seem difficult.
|
>>You do seem to take offence...
I would be a lot happier if YOU could stop the ill founded personal comments, insults, and observations about me.
|
>> stop the ill founded personal comments, insults, and observations about me.
If they are ill-founded, it can only be because you have misrepresented yourself here since they are based only on what I know of you which comes from your posts.
Most people don't mind the odd 'personal comment' and take mild insults in good part. You appear from your posts to be extremely prickly about anything like that. Nevertheless I have continued to try to converse with you avoiding anything that might seem insulting despite your cold, unjustifiably haughty responses to these attempts.
This is now at an end. I will give up trying to converse with you with a parting, deliberate insult. You are a prat, pain in the backside and frankly too thick for me to waste any more breath on. Goodbye.
Last edited by: VxFan on Mon 19 May 14 at 01:40
|
Come in Kettle, come in Kettle, this is Pot, are you black? Over.
We all know I step over the line from time to time AC, but it would appear to be your turn.
That was over the line. And in the case of the accusation of thickness, actually very, very wrong.
IMHO, of course.
To whoever clicked on the thumb;
Somebody giving a thumbs up to an insult is pathetic. Someone may be annoyed and say something in the moment. But the thumber-uppers ought to be ashamed and embarassed.
Last edited by: No FM2R on Thu 24 Apr 14 at 00:13
|
>> That was over the line. And in the case of the accusation of thickness, actually very, very wrong.
I've stepped over the line a good few times, and apologised for it too. This is not such an occasion.
I don't expect you or anyone else to be up to speed on this FMR. But I am. That insult was completely deliberate and is well deserved. As is the accusation of limited intelligence. I'm not going over it in detail here now or ever. The person concerned should understand but probably won't, as if it mattered.
|
Well you can count me as thick too, because I certainly can't comprehend the name calling.
No reply required. I give up.
|
>> A note from the moderators reminding offenders of the house rule would be appropriate.
The culprits are fully aware of the house rules, but still think it's clever to ignore them and push their luck.
It's not big, nor clever, but they seem to think it is.
As for moderating, Damned if we do, damned it we don't.
|
>> Damned if we do, damned it we don't.
Of course!! *YOUR* fault!!
I knew it couldn't have been mine.
|
>>NoFM2R could have made his point without referring to another member as an idiotic, immature [----].
True. I apologise for the actual insulting word(s).
Not for the message though.
|
>> True. I apologise for the actual insulting word(s).
Noted, thank you.
|
I don't want to cause anybody else any more trouble, I've caused enough of that this weekend. The reason I asked it to be removed is I saw how many people have viewed it and as legal action may be taken against me I thought it was best hidden.
I tend to forget that this is not some small tiny website with a few regular members but is in fact a very public forum on google etc.
Going out is the only pleasure I really get, if I stopped doing that I would have nothing to work for. I normally don't drink a lot, but in case I had more than I would normally drink. My own fault I know and it is a lesson.
Now can we just drawer a line on the entire thing or I can see this dragging on and dragging on.
|
I didn't see the original thread, Rattle, but I do wish you well. You clearly posted on here looking for support and friendship, but didn't get it from everybody. What a shame, particularly at the time when we're celebrating the risen Christ.
I would respectfully suggest that this thread goes read-only.
|
|
Or we could all move on !
|
I've come late to this thread. What a lot of self-important self-appointed pseudo agony aunts you all are!
Chap gets drunk, writes a lot of nonsense, sees things differently in the cold grey light of dawn. His friends draw a discreet veil over the episode, life moves on.
|
|
Oh look, some embers. Just the place to keep a bit of petrol...............
|
I come here for a chat and to challenge and be challenged on opposing views. It's not quite the pub because the subtleties of irony and face/face conversation don't carry to the medium. But then again neither does the risk of a flat nose.
AC's literary style is such that his punches are pulled. Zero is Zero, like one of those dogs that nips your ankles if you don't kick it soon enough - I'm prepared to give as I get.
NoFM reminds me of what i suspect is his profession - one of those 'interim' managers paid an enormous fee to sort out stuff that Ministers/The Board think (with or without justification) is too difficult for the salaried bods to deal with.
I've faced a few down in my time and it's even more fun when doing so is risk free. I think though, that like the best of his ilk, he doesn't grudge challenge even if it fails.
|
>>NoFM reminds me of what i suspect is his profession....
Not a bad guess, not complete, but not bad at all. To be quite honest, a little startling.
As for the fee, well it makes me smile just thinking about it.
>>he doesn't grudge challenge even if it fails.
I'm not sure I entirely grasp your meaning? I'd be interested in understanding though.
>>I've faced a few down in my time
You'll not face me down; not a prayer. You may well be right when I'm wrong though, which is not something I have an issue acknowledging, admitting or apologising for. Practice makes perfect, I guess, and I've had plenty of practice at being wrong.
I do like to thoroughly understand the opposing view/stance. I am often surprised how someone will hold a strong view, but then be offended by having to explain and/or justify it when challenged. How else can one improve one's own understanding?
|
>>he doesn't grudge challenge even if it fails.
I spent a few years of my CS career as part of a team working through major change - outsourcing, business system redesign, move to new building with open plan working etc etc . Team was a mix of permanent Civil Servants (both policy 'high flyers' and people who understood the business) and contractor/interim placements.
Some people particularly in the latter roles resented any query or challenge whatever. Just questioning them was enough to damage the challenger even if outcome was agreement that challenge was justifiable but not conclusive.
You are probably out of my league but the guy I particularly recall was charged with designing the facilities and catering 'offer' in new premises. I took his unjustified assertions to pieces and secured a proper staff canteen offering breakfast lunch rather than the coffee/snacks offer he insisted people 'wanted'.
The real knowledge (or rather lack of it) amongst people employed on £1k/day 10 year ago had to be seen to be believed.
|
Many, many people, often referred to as "interims" are in that role because their ability to make themselves look good on paper is so far in excess of their ability to actually deliver in practice, that the short term role is a natural for them.
The thought process seems to be ->
Get in on your outstanding CV, earn some money, play networking/politics, get out before they realise how bad you are, and then use them as a reference because they are too embarrassed to admit they recruited someone as awful as you. In the process, stand on all minions, subordinates and support since you weren't going to achieve anything material anyway you don't need their help and trashing them may make you look good, or at least give you someone to blame.
Truly awful people typically contracted by equally awful people.
I went to a dinner a little while ago, hosted by one of the main interim mgmt providers in the City. The providers were smooth, smart, content free and about 12yrs old. The examples of IMs there were shallow, ineffectual, self-obsessed and are usually first through the door on any organisation I ever take over.
I was quite shocked just how bad they were.
But they spoke well.
Equally scary, or perhaps more so, is how little the client procurement people care about actual delivery. They are as concerned about saying the right things as the potential interim is, and they naturally protect each other.
So you consider your Facilities guy, and if he is bad, just how bad was the guy who contracted him? Therein lies the real problem.
|
>>The real knowledge (or rather lack of it) amongst people employed on £1k/day 10 year ago had to be seen to be believed.
BTW, rates haven't changed much in 10 years, surprisingly. These days you get an employee for about £200/day, a Project Manager for about £500/day, a Director for about £1000/day and an SME for about £1200/day. All of them +/- about 20% depending.
Fortunately for my wife's entirely unnecessary handbag collection I manage to scrape a little more than that.
|
>> Many, many people, often referred to as "interims" are in that role because their ability
>> to make themselves look good on paper is so far in excess of their ability
>> to actually deliver in practice, that the short term role is a natural for them.
>>
>> The thought process seems to be ->
>>
>> Get in on your outstanding CV, earn some money, play networking/politics, get out before they
>> realise how bad you are, and then use them as a reference because they are
>> too embarrassed to admit they recruited someone as awful as you. In the process, stand
>> on all minions, subordinates and support since you weren't going to achieve anything material anyway
>> you don't need their help and trashing them may make you look good, or at
>> least give you someone to blame.
A brilliant summary if i may say so.
|
>>A brilliant summary if i may say so.
Agreed same description be can be used for external consultants, trouble shooters etc.
My friend is one - I think I will send that description over to her!!
|
>>You are probably out of my league
You shouldn't say that and I am not. We may do different things, but that's it. There are things that you do, without doubt, that I would be truly awful at. I hope that there are things I do that you would be awful at.
But "out of my league". No.
|
"You'll not face me down; not a prayer."
Perhaps this is what this whole argument is about; if so, it fills me with despair. The phrase "willy-waving" comes to mind.
To avoid further conflagration I will refrain from saying what I really think.
|
>>"You'll not face me down; not a prayer."
> Perhaps this is what this whole argument is about;
Perhaps I mis-explained;
It is true that I will not get "faced down". By which I mean that I cannot be intimidated, scared, bluffed or bullied. If I think I am right (and if I didn't I wouldn't have said it), then you need to show me how I am wrong, not just shout or bring friends.
However, I have no ego (honestly) and have no issue with anybody's view, nor do I have a problem with being wrong, or being improved upon. My skill is not to know what is right, my skill is to find the people that do know and support, protect and grow them. And often the emphasis is on the protect.
It doesn't happen that often, but that's because I'm good at my job and I learn something from everyone I meet, not because I am closed to other's ideas and input.
|
>>To avoid further conflagration I will refrain from saying what I really think.
Don't worry about me, say it. If you have a point it'll cause me no issue. If you're wrong, it won't cause me any issue to point out that, either.
Because if you're not prepared to say it, then why bother mentioning that you had anything to say? Unless you were trying to disparage without having to justify?
Last edited by: No FM2R on Mon 21 Apr 14 at 23:50
|
"Because if you're not prepared to say it, then why bother mentioning that you had anything to say? Unless you were trying to disparage without having to justify?"
Disingenuous. My thoughts were pretty clear in my previous post. There was no point in saying anything more explicit because it seems from this thread that you're spoiling for a fight, which your comment above seems to confirm. Sorry - I'm not taking the bait.
Perhaps you don't realise the impression you create in much of this thread, but the word "I" gets used an awful lot and you have dished out a lot of criticism. It matters not that you know (or at least believe) that you're right, nor that you're intelligent and articulate.
It still leaves a bad taste.
|
|
.
Last edited by: No FM2R on Tue 22 Apr 14 at 22:07
|
>>My thoughts were pretty clear in my previous post.
Were they? Surely clarity of communication is something to be judged by the listener/reader, not the writer/speaker? For the avoidance of doubt, I did not find them to be clear.
>>To avoid further conflagration I will refrain from saying what I really think.
That suggests, or at least I inferred, that you had not said what you "really think".
>>but the word "I" gets used an awful lot
I genuinely don't understand your point. Of course I use "I", I'm typically talking about why/what I think or I've done. I'm not sure how else it should be.
>>It matters not that you know (or at least believe) that you're right, nor that you're intelligent and articulate.
Well, firstly thank you for the compliment.
However, it matters to me a great deal that I believe I am right, and I try very hard to be so. Surely you must be the same, as indeed is pretty much anyone, I would think.
Why would on earth would I say something that I did not think was right?
And as for "bait", I suggest you review your assessment of your relevance in my world. I have no interest in baiting you.
Its a discussion forum. Discuss or don't, its a free world.
|
>> Perhaps I mis-explained;
>>
>> It is true that I will not get "faced down". By which I mean that
>> I cannot be intimidated, scared, bluffed or bullied. If I think I am right (and
>> if I didn't I wouldn't have said it), then you need to show me how
>> I am wrong, not just shout or bring friends.
I too took your original response in the 'willy waving' sense.
Personally I'm pretty well incapable of bluffing, bullying etc. Certainly so when dealing someone vested with authority far in excess of my own.
OTOH that authority doesn't make these guys immune to rational argument. It's also true that provided I don't overplay my cards even pretty senior bosses will say 'B might not be a high flyer but he know his stuff'.
And that's how I've faced down 'interims'.
|
Been out on the ElectraGlide most of the day; glorious ride down the Gower to Port Eynon then back up the north side through Penclawdd into Swansea, to finish up down the Mumbles.
Have I missed anything? ;-)
|
>>
Have I missed anything? ;-)<<
No HM, just two regular forum members managing to get the attention they both secretly crave;)
Pat
|
>>I too took your original response in the 'willy waving' sense.
Sorry about that, wasn't how I meant it.
|
>>I'm pretty well incapable of bluffing, bullying etc.
Nobody who is good at what they do, needs to. In fact, probably wouldn't be able to.
>>OTOH that authority doesn't make these guys immune to rational argument.
I find that questions that shift responsibility normally cause them to unravel.
As in;
"That's seems to be an excellent way forward. Just for my own benefit, could you help me understand the factors that drove you to recommend our organization make this choice?"
|
Interesting exchange, gents. I took Bromp's 'I've faced down a few...' to mean that he's resisted others' attempts to intimidate, not that he himself tried to intimidate. I've met the types he and NoFM describe, too, and they are peculiarly awful.
What NoFM says about purchasing departments is true, too. There's often a lot of interest at the early stage of a project, making sure the 'approved supplier' is used, and very little understanding of whether that supplier is suitable for the job - or even any good at all.
I suspect it's due to the old problem of perverse or conflicting incentives: tell the travel department to save money on travel and employees find themselves having to fly from distant airports and stay in unsuitable hotels because of 'policy' - even though it costs far more in taxi fares and wasted time.
Or make your project manager personally responsible for the financial success of the project. Brilliant - should focus his mind. Trouble is, he's now so afraid of failure that he insists on overspecifying everything to the point of overpricing and losing the deal.
I'm sure none of this stuff happens in any organization once NoFM's finished with it.
|
Is it just me who has got no idea what's going on here? :confused:
And who is "R"?
I think some people take forums far too seriously.
|
|
Do you mean Mr and Mrs Jimlad amd their son R Jimlad?
|
>>And who is "R"?
Think of a snake, and what babies play with.
(*_*)
|
>> Adderpenis?
I had to Google that, and I'm still non the wiser!
|
|
I think it's a made up word based on a snake and what a baby plays with...
|
50 % of babies are girls....
I think Arjades had something more unisex, and more innocent, in mind.
|
|
Rats, I can't figure that out. :-)
|
>>I think it's a made up word based on a snake and what a baby plays with...
What kind of scary nursery did you go to?
Last edited by: VxFan on Mon 19 May 14 at 01:40
|
That would be telling - the fees were appalling...
|
|
"The threat of envenomation, advertised by the loud shaking of the titular noisemaker ("rattle") at the end of their tail, deters many predators"
|
>> Is it just me who has got no idea what's going on here? :confused:
>>
>> And who is "R"?
>>
>> I think some people take forums far too seriously.
>>
It's all a great lark, though.
"Humour is the most serious occupation there is" - Oscar Wilde
Have you solved the Mystery of R yet BP?
R is one of the greatest actors in this C4P soap, and always initiates the longest running threads. It's fascinating that one of the longest should be the one in which he never actually appears in person.
|
"R is one of the greatest actors in this C4P soap, and always initiates the longest running threads. It's fascinating that one of the longest should be the one in which he never actually appears in person."
He has that soap opera knack of turning something quite trivial into a fascinating saga to which other can relate or have an opinion. I hope he returns soon.
|
>>> It's fascinating that one of the longest should be the one in which he never actually appears in person<<<
He did make a cameo appearance at 21 Apr 14 13:30. Perhaps in this non-visual medium he is adopting a Hitchcock-like role, instead of carrying a musical instrument he uses a keyword in his post:)
|
|
I think he's busy playing another role. That argumentative bloke from Chile.
|
I like Rattle, I'd have a beer with him anytime.
For starters, he's a Manc, crucially he has a sister, creme de la creme he has a Milf.
Win, win, win.
|
>> I like Rattle, I'd have a beer with him anytime.
Doesn't everyone?
I too would be happy to take a jar with the Sheikh, but I would stop after two or three and let him guzzle seven more if he felt like it.
Although outlandish I don't think his Mancunian accent or delivery would prove a serious problem. We would understand each other perfectly:
'Ooh, ah, Sheikha, knowImean?'
'Eh?'
'What? Er... '
Would be the work of a moment to find out why he doesn't like driving, and cure him. Or so I dream in optimistic moments.
|
>>
>> Would be the work of a moment to find out why he doesn't like driving,
>> and cure him. Or so I dream in optimistic moments.
>>
>>
Therapists don't nowadays think so much in terms of 'curing' a disorder but instead of celebrating difference. I think your own expressed "dream" of effecting such a cure perhaps betrays indicators of what we call Bonnington-Jagworth Syndrome.
|
>> what we call Bonnington-Jagworth Syndrome.
Is that what you call it? My view is that anyone who doesn't want to cure the Sheikh of his wimpish aversion to the automobile has no place on this site.
No offence though CP. I know you're just teasing.
|
"Although outlandish I don't think his Mancunian accent or delivery would prove a serious problem. We would understand each other perfectly"
www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZDKF8KkD7rE
|
|
Excellent BBD. I love Harry Enfield's pastiche Mancunian. And the Mancunian walk is superb.
|
Would be the work of a moment to find out why he doesn't like driving, and cure him. Or so I dream in optimistic moments.
I used to harbour a similar delusion about 'curing' a particularly splendid female friend of her preference for ladies over gentlemen - specifically, me. Never did - although she's been a good friend for a very long time now. Probably better that way, as it turned out.
|
Just need someone to invoke Godwin's Law, someone else to boast about doing a 3rd party's mum (where's BBD when you need him) and I've filled my "Whiny Crap Thread" bingo card.
Once that card is full NO-ONE gets an antibiotic for their cold.
|
>> Once that card is full NO-ONE gets an antibiotic for their cold.
>>
That's the sort of thing Hitler would have done.....;-)
....over to BBD
|
>> NO-ONE gets an antibiotic for their cold.
>>
Er... aren't most colds viral Lygonos?
A propos, visited my local GPs yesterday to ask for some antibiotic for one of my two overlapping current coughs: one my own doing entirely resulting from many years of smoking, the other the tail end of a cold caught from the nippers.
One cough produces the usual nasty catarrh, the other a lime-green product that I identified as bacterial. The charming young lady doctor agreed and wrote me some capsules.
|
>>The charming young lady doctor agreed couldn't be ringed to explain that the colour in spit is simply pus and has no real bearing on whether it is viral or bacterial, and wanted to have her tea-break and wrote me some capsules.
Of course if you were a bit breathless or had a grotty sounding chest it may have been entirely appropriate ;-)
Last edited by: Lygonos on Thu 24 Apr 14 at 17:44
|
She had a listen Lygonos and said she could hear something. I'm not surprised because I often can without the need for a stethoscope.
You may be right though, she may just have thought it more expedient to agree. Absolutely sweet girl, but you are all inclined to leave the patient in the dark when you can. Just in case you need to change your diagnosis in hindsight I sometimes suspect.
:o}
|
What happened to R's alcohol induced saga ? - No FM2R
