Motoring Discussion > travelling with eurotunnel on minibus	Miscellaneous
Thread Author: SFB	Replies: 50

Mon 7 Apr 14 00:22   travelling with eurotunnel on minibus - SFB

Hi, I wondered if anyone can help with my query. We are planning to travel by eurotunnel next month in a Ford transit 17 seater minibus.  However, there are 18 people in my family which includes 2 babys aged one and two year old. The babys will therefore by sitting on their mum's laps. Does anyone know if we be allowed to cross by eurotunnel with 18 people since there is enough space in the 17-seater minibus as the two baby's will be sitting on Mums laps? Reply to this message | Report message

Mon 7 Apr 14 00:41   travelling with eurotunnel on minibus - No FM2R

Now I have no idea of the rules on the EuroTunnel, but no doubt someone here will. But aside from that is it really safe (never mind legal) to travel holding babies in laps? Certainly not something I would do. Reply to this message | Report message

Mon 7 Apr 14 00:55   travelling with eurotunnel on minibus - Harleyman

>> But aside from that is it really safe (never mind legal) to travel holding babies >> in laps? Certainly not something I would do. >> It is neither safe nor legal. In fact it's downright stupid and irresponsible. I'd also question whether you'd be legal to drive a 17-seater bus without the driver holding a PSV licence, even if it is for private use. There is also the indisputable fact that if there are more people in the bus than seats, irrespective of the age or size of the passengers, your insurance would be null and void. Last edited by: Harleyman on Mon 7 Apr 14 at 00:57 Reply to this message | Report message

Mon 7 Apr 14 08:22   travelling with eurotunnel on minibus - CGNorwich

By breaking the laws of both England and France you would indeed be in breach of Eurotunnel's terms and conditions and may be refused travel. Reply to this message | Report message

Mon 7 Apr 14 08:31   travelling with eurotunnel on minibus - Bromptonaut

Driving a minibus up to 16 seats in UK or for trips abroad is reasonably straightforward for drivers who passed their test before 01 Jan 1997. More complicated for those who passed after: www.gov.uk/driving-a-minibus At a glance more than 16 seats is PSV licence or at least permit territory. In any event, going over capacity with babes in arms is, to put it tactfully, high risk. It would be difficult to deal with police stop in UK, shared language etc, without probability of bus being impounded. The thought of tackling issue in France, where I have a bit of the language, is bad enough. In Germany or Italy???? My advice to OP is to go back to the drawing board and split the party into two vehicles. A 12 seater bus and large 6 seat MPV type car would do the trick. Otherwise can some fly or Eurostar and hire locally. Reply to this message | Report message

Mon 7 Apr 14 09:36   travelling with eurotunnel on minibus - Bill Payer

>> It is neither safe nor legal. In fact it's downright stupid and irresponsible. >> From a quick glance, it doesn't look illegal to me. I can't imagine Eurotunnel would care less. Reply to this message | Report message

Mon 7 Apr 14 09:47   travelling with eurotunnel on minibus - Zero

>> >> It is neither safe nor legal. In fact it's downright stupid and irresponsible. >> >> >> >> From a quick glance, it doesn't look illegal to me. Hypothetically - As far as I can tell its not. Kids in restraints only applies to cars, not busses. Therefore no offence in UK, no idea at all about France. If its not an offence in France then its not against Eurotunnels conditions of carriage Stupid and ill advised it may be, but perfectly legal. Reply to this message | Report message

Mon 7 Apr 14 08:25   travelling with eurotunnel on minibus - Zero

this is a wind up. Reply to this message | Report message

Mon 7 Apr 14 08:33   travelling with eurotunnel on minibus - Bromptonaut

>> this is a wind up. That thought crossed my mind too. A plain factual reply answers question if it is real but will not satisfy a troll. Intemperate language however is his rich meat. Reply to this message | Report message       2

Mon 7 Apr 14 08:39   travelling with eurotunnel on minibus - Dieselboy

Why not use a minibus with a roofrack? You could then take turns on top and there would be none of this dangerous business of sitting on laps. Reply to this message | Report message       2

Mon 7 Apr 14 09:03   travelling with eurotunnel on minibus - Mike H

School holidays have started...... Reply to this message | Report message

Mon 7 Apr 14 09:48   travelling with eurotunnel on minibus - VxFan

EDIT - self moderated and slapped on wrists. The OPs email address looks legit. Back to the question please, and apologies to the OP for any finger pointing. Last edited by: VxFan on Mon 7 Apr 14 at 12:19 Reply to this message | Report message

Mon 7 Apr 14 12:43   travelling with eurotunnel on minibus - jc2

Don't forget to use the tachograph Reply to this message | Report message

Mon 7 Apr 14 12:49   travelling with eurotunnel on minibus - BobbyG

And the OP has changed their name already - blending in well with some of the regulars!!! Assume was result of information disclosed? Going back to their question, do they mean "how many people are allowed on a minibus when travelling on the train" as opposed to what the road traffic laws are? There may be two vehicles going down to the tunnel but everyone is piling into the minibus just for the tunnel part and another vehicle waiting at the other end to split up again? If OP is seriously considering having unrestrained passengers of any age, but especially children or babies, then I would suggest that is a very silly thing to do. Yes I know 30 years ago we all did it and we used to sit in the boot of dad's Cortina Estate but that was then and this is now. Reply to this message | Report message

Mon 7 Apr 14 13:00   travelling with eurotunnel on minibus - rtj70

Like the others on here, I'd seriously reconsider sitting with babies in the laps of mothers regardless of the law. In terms of driving a 17 seater mini-bus (including driver), you only have this on your licence if you got it before 01/011997 otherwise you need to pass a PCV test. But in this day and age, for the safety of these children, put them in child seats. It does mean you cannot then take everyone in a 17 seater mini-bus. And on a more practical note, how much experience has the driver of such a large vehicle with 16+ passengers? Last edited by: rtj70 on Mon 7 Apr 14 at 13:00 Reply to this message | Report message

Mon 7 Apr 14 13:06   travelling with eurotunnel on minibus - Fenlander

As rtj says.... Also it is not unknown for dreadful accident reports in the paper where extended members of one family/group have been crammed to capacity in a minibus. Last edited by: Fenlander on Mon 7 Apr 14 at 13:08 Reply to this message | Report message

Mon 7 Apr 14 13:24   travelling with eurotunnel on minibus - Manatee

My first reaction was to think 'what is the problem?', based on what happens with everyday bus travel. However I wouldn't tempt fate either from a compliance perspective, or a safety one. A long journey on unfamiliar roads at probably higher speeds than the average bus journey too. Our children have always used seats/boosters/belts as appropriate. When we took our 6 month old daughter to France in 1981, I bought and installed a baby seat. Few people used them then. My 1980 Fiesta didn't even come with rear belts, and I used the anchorages for the seat. My view then and now was that children can't properly make the choice for themselves and rely on adults to keep them safe. In 1988 we were all in the car (daughter 7, son 3) when it was heavily rear-ended at a junction. I shudder to think where they would have ended up had they not been restrained. Reply to this message | Report message

Mon 7 Apr 14 13:54   travelling with eurotunnel on minibus - rtj70

I remember in the 80s our school minibus of the time had bench seats in the back and we went on a trip to London with the crammed full of us (15-18 year old). Not comfortable and would not have been safe in any sort of accident. Different times and now a mini-bus would have seat belts etc. I think the OP has got the message - whether it's legal or not... don't do it. And the driver might not even have the necessary category on their licence anyway. Reply to this message | Report message

Mon 7 Apr 14 13:59   travelling with eurotunnel on minibus - TheManWithNoName

Save money and climb underneath an HGV. The authorities in France probably won't be expecting people to be hitching a ride coming FROM the UK. Reply to this message | Report message       1

Mon 7 Apr 14 14:07   travelling with eurotunnel on minibus - Fenlander

>>> authorities in France probably won't be expecting people to be hitching a ride coming FROM the UK. They may have to reconsider if UKIP ever get in.... Reply to this message | Report message       4

Mon 7 Apr 14 14:14   travelling with eurotunnel on minibus - Fenlander

>>>remember in the 80s our school minibus Likewise in the 70s our ex-ambulance we called the Ambo was driven by various seemingly suicidal teachers. Side benches all the way down in the back and very hard to stay on them during spirited driving. The spirited driving was usually unintentional but all that drove it said brakes were near non-existent and we often went towards Wales where the downhill twisty bits just got faster and faster. Last edited by: Fenlander on Mon 7 Apr 14 at 14:16 Reply to this message | Report message

Mon 7 Apr 14 14:24   travelling with eurotunnel on minibus - Armel Coussine

It's all very well to be finicky about the alleged laws and regulations and to condemn people to hiring a proper coach and driver or just getting 15 taxis. But it's perfectly possible that the OP can't afford these choices and has to use what's available. The risk of accidents can be minimised by choosing a sane competent driver. A small child sitting on the lap of an adult wearing a safety belt, outside the belt but firmly held by the adult, is pretty safe. And I agree that the authorities will only notice any irregularities if something happens to underline them. Reply to this message | Report message

Mon 7 Apr 14 14:42   travelling with eurotunnel on minibus - Duncan

>> it's perfectly possible that the OP can't afford these choices and has to use what's >> available. >> How about if we return to Protestant values and ethics - if you can't afford it, then you can't do it! Reply to this message | Report message

Mon 7 Apr 14 14:56   travelling with eurotunnel on minibus - Armel Coussine

>> return to Protestant values and ethics - if you can't afford it, then you can't do it! That isn't Protestant, it's smug, heartless and bourgeois. Anyone worth their salt would risk it, seems to me. I certainly would. Reply to this message | Report message

Mon 7 Apr 14 15:02   travelling with eurotunnel on minibus - Alanovich

>> That isn't Protestant, it's smug, heartless and bourgeois. Bit harsh on Protestants there, AC. I mean, what makes them any different in this regard to other Christian cults? Reply to this message | Report message

Mon 7 Apr 14 15:07   travelling with eurotunnel on minibus - Armel Coussine

>> Bit harsh on Protestants there, What do you mean? I said that attitude wasn't Protestant but was those other things. Perhaps I was wrong though. If you are a Protestant you can set me straight by assuring me that these are consistent Protestant qualities. Reply to this message | Report message

Mon 7 Apr 14 15:24   travelling with eurotunnel on minibus - Alanovich

Never mind AC, wrong end of stick grasped there. I was a Protestant, raised by a Catholic. Smug, heartless and bourgeois are epithets which fit a huge number of the practitioners of both of those cults in my experience though, one of the elements in helping me seeing through the bullshine once I was old enough. Off to the workhouse with them! Send the orphans to live and work in the laundries! Reply to this message | Report message

Mon 7 Apr 14 16:03   travelling with eurotunnel on minibus - Armel Coussine

>> Smug, heartless and bourgeois are epithets which fit a huge number of the practitioners of both of those cults in my experience though Er... amen to that, so to speak. However the same qualities can be found in freethinkers, unbelievers and so on. And rational, kindly, humane types willing to stretch a point are to be found in all the categories. Not all believers are fundamentalists and not all fundamentalists are brutal and irrational. Reply to this message | Report message

Mon 7 Apr 14 22:39   travelling with eurotunnel on minibus - Duncan

>>it's smug, heartless and bourgeois. >> So what if it is. If you can't afford to do it (legally). Then you shouldn't attempt to do it! Reply to this message | Report message

Mon 7 Apr 14 14:24   travelling with eurotunnel on minibus - Zero

I once set a lap record at Brands Hatch for a minibus full of disabled kids. Arms, legs bodies and wheelchair bits everywhere. They loved every single second of it, alas they would only let me use the indy circuit as the bus wouldn't fit under the bridge on the GP circuit Last edited by: Zero on Mon 7 Apr 14 at 14:25 Reply to this message | Report message

Mon 7 Apr 14 14:25   travelling with eurotunnel on minibus - R.P.

A lap record ??? How many were on your lap ? :-) Reply to this message | Report message

Mon 7 Apr 14 14:34   travelling with eurotunnel on minibus - Zero

Just me, but how many other 18 seat LWB transits full of disabled kids has scraped door handles round the indy circuit at Brands? Last edited by: Zero on Mon 7 Apr 14 at 14:34 Reply to this message | Report message

Mon 7 Apr 14 14:40   travelling with eurotunnel on minibus - bathtub tom

Rydell was fairly close, Neal and Sheddon are currently doing a good impression albeit with fewer passengers. Reply to this message | Report message

Mon 7 Apr 14 16:17   travelling with eurotunnel on minibus - Zero

>> Rydell was fairly close, Neal and Sheddon are currently doing a good impression albeit with >> fewer passengers. Rydell did it in an estate with a dog in the back. And whilst I agree Neal is a complete spastic, I don't think Honda Yusa Racing would accept their civic looks and handles like a 1986 LWB Ford Transit minibus. Reply to this message | Report message

Mon 7 Apr 14 14:24   travelling with eurotunnel on minibus - bathtub tom

The OP never questioned the need for a PCV licence. I understand it's only necessary for carrying fare paying passengers. Some volunteer drivers could be in trouble otherwise. Reply to this message | Report message

Mon 7 Apr 14 14:38   travelling with eurotunnel on minibus - Runfer D'Hills

As children we used to be packed wholesale into the back of my mate's mum's Austin Mini van. No seat belts or seats come to that. Just a sheet of foam rubber on the floor to make it a little more comfortable. No airbags either but the prudent would brace themselves against a fat kid on longer journeys just in case. Reply to this message | Report message       1

Mon 7 Apr 14 14:52   travelling with eurotunnel on minibus - No FM2R

>>My first reaction was to think 'what is the problem?', based on what happens with everyday bus travel. Which in turn made me think. However, a minibus at 60mph (or whatever) on a motorway driven by a presumably relatively inexperienced driver, versus a blooming great bus at 20mph (or whatever)in a town is quite a different thing, I think. Reply to this message | Report message

Mon 7 Apr 14 16:56   travelling with eurotunnel on minibus - Mapmaker

>>versus a blooming great bus at 20mph Buses go on Motorways too. Reply to this message | Report message

Mon 7 Apr 14 17:33   travelling with eurotunnel on minibus - No FM2R

>>Buses go on Motorways too. And I would have a child seated properly on it in that case. However, I feel sure you got my point. Reply to this message | Report message

Tue 8 Apr 14 10:05   travelling with eurotunnel on minibus - Mapmaker

>> >>Buses go on Motorways too. >> >> And I would have a child seated properly on it in that case. >> >> However, I feel sure you got my point. >> I was making a different point, I think. Buses are allowed to have twenty standing passengers and don't have seat belts. And I'm pretty sure that school buses squeeze a lot more on than that. (Our school bus used to be a double decker bus that was loaded to the gunwales; three on some seats, and as many standing as you could imagine. Being children that would have been a goodly number. And it went on the motorway.) Reply to this message | Report message

Mon 7 Apr 14 17:52   travelling with eurotunnel on minibus - rtj70

>> The OP never questioned the need for a PCV licence. I understand it's only necessary for >> carrying fare paying passengers. If you passed your driving test after 01/01/1997 you do not have the entitlement to drive a 17 seater minibus at all. Before that you did as long as not for fare paying passengers. So if the driver of this mini bus passed their test after 01/01/1997 you need to do a PCV test. Hence it being raised. And if there are 18 on the bus including the driver, only one baby needs to be held. Minimise risk by swapping them around... I'm not serious of course. Don't do it. Last edited by: rtj70 on Mon 7 Apr 14 at 17:53 Reply to this message | Report message

Mon 7 Apr 14 15:33   travelling with eurotunnel on minibus - Bill Payer

>> I remember in the 80s our school minibus of the time had bench seats in >> the back and we went on a trip to London with the crammed full of >> us (15-18 year old). Not comfortable and would not have been safe in any sort >> of accident. Different times and now a mini-bus would have seat belts etc. >> I remember going on along journey from college is such a vehicle and in adition there were several 10 gallon tins of fuel (pretty sure it was petrol as the fumes made everyone feel sick)) in the back too. :yikes: Reply to this message | Report message

Mon 7 Apr 14 16:35   travelling with eurotunnel on minibus - Boxsterboy

Our school minibus was a Bedford CF with wooden bench seats running down the sides. The rear doors never shut properly, and the master driving had terrible clutch control (or more likely the van was knackered) meaning that as the van kangarooed down the High Street, the rear doors would fly open and we would hold on for dear life. (OK, so we exaggerated as only school-boys would - it was fun at the time!) Reply to this message | Report message

Mon 7 Apr 14 16:43   travelling with eurotunnel on minibus - Runfer D'Hills

My uncle used to do light removals with a flat bed truck. My cousins and I would help with the lifting and shifting in the school holidays. We'd always try to put any sofas on last at the back of the truck so we could sit on them facing backwards and make faces and rude signs at following drivers. Not a matter of lasting pride but it seemed like fun at the time. Going up steep hills involved linking arms with whoever was in the middle of the sofa to prevent him falling off. Reply to this message | Report message

Mon 7 Apr 14 22:50   travelling with eurotunnel on minibus - Ted

Dangerous things in inexperienced hands. Remember the M40 disaster in 1993.? Teacher and 12 kids killed. Brought about the fitting of crush barriers on the back of MWay maintenance trucks. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M40_minibus_crash Plenty of multiple accidents reported on motorways on Sundays with large families visiting relatives for the day. Must be a fair old weight with a full complement as against when empty. The handling must be a lot different. Reply to this message | Report message

Mon 7 Apr 14 22:59   travelling with eurotunnel on minibus - Armel Coussine

>> Must be a fair old weight with a full complement as against when empty. The handling must be a lot different. Absolutely: slow, lumbering and fragile, although quite perky when empty. That was why I specified a sane competent driver. One is always reading about disasters on the way to Indian weddings and so on, where the driver has stopped in a silly place and everyone swarmed out onto the hard shoulder for some fresh air, or tried an untoward swerve after losing attention for a few seconds... doesn't bear thinking about. You won't necessarily find a sane competent driver in a given busload either. Reply to this message | Report message

Tue 8 Apr 14 10:43   travelling with eurotunnel on minibus - Slidingpillar

M40 disaster in 1993.? Teacher and 12 kids killed. Crash barriers on motorway maintenance lorries was just a part. The law relating to the carrying of kids in minibuses was also changed with the outlawing of longitudinal bench seats. Had normal seats been used it was reckoned some more would have lived as part of the problem was they all slid to the front in a heap. Absolutely: slow, lumbering and fragile, although quite perky when empty. Yes, I've driven a number of minibuses over the years for the local scout group, when empty it's surprising how well they drive. Reply to this message | Report message

Tue 8 Apr 14 11:08   travelling with eurotunnel on minibus - Duncan

Wasn't there also the question that the teacher was tired. having already driven and spent all day working with the children/? Reply to this message | Report message

Tue 8 Apr 14 11:33   travelling with eurotunnel on minibus - Mapmaker

>>Wasn't there also the question that the teacher was tired. having already driven and spent >>all day working with the children/? It always impressed me, after a tiring day in the hills as a schoolboy, we would get in the minibus and go to sleep whilst the masters drove us home. I wonder whether this still happens. They must have been as tired as we were. Reply to this message | Report message

Tue 8 Apr 14 13:20   travelling with eurotunnel on minibus - Slidingpillar

Absolutely. The teacher in the minibus crash had been up for longer than any of the pupils, had driven to the venue, watched the same concert, and was then driving home. Way over what would be regarded as sensible hours of wakening. Peoples reaction to lack of sleep varies, some of us get early warning signs when driving, but some people don't and just drop off to sleep. Being responsible for others can help one stay awake, but it's very dangerous to assume this as lack of sleep on one day may not cause the same reaction on another. Reply to this message | Report message

Thu 10 Apr 14 13:18   travelling with eurotunnel on minibus - IJWS14

The M4 was also a lot quieter then than it is now. Reply to this message | Report message