Motoring Discussion > Pedestrian crossings - know what is legal ? Miscellaneous
Thread Author: henry k Replies: 23
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New Thu 13 Mar 14 09:00 
 Pedestrian crossings - know what is legal ? - henry k
www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2578995/Council-CCTV-spy-car-nabs-motorist-allowing-children-cross-zebra-crossing.html

When Graham Wilkinson’s 12-year-old son got out of his van as he stopped at a zebra crossing, he thought nothing of it.

‘I’ve been getting quite worked up about it. It’s a ludicrous decision – it’s not like I have parked up and got out.

I even spoke to a police officer to see if I was breaking some road traffic law but they said I wasn’t.

We share the roads with these people:-(
There are extended pedestrian guard rails at our local pedestrian crossing so it is quite common to see cars stop ON the zebra stripes to allow a passenger to exit at the gap.
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New Thu 13 Mar 14 09:59 
 Pedestrian crossings - know what is legal ? - commerdriver
The report I saw seemed to be saying the child got out when Dad stopped to let someone across.

I know it's illegal to stop on the zigzags to let someone out, is it still illegal if someone jumps out when I am stopped anyway.
Sounds like a bit of a jobsworth situation
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New Thu 13 Mar 14 10:02 
 Pedestrian crossings - know what is legal ? - Zero
Yees - interesting scenario
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New Thu 13 Mar 14 10:37 
 Pedestrian crossings - know what is legal ? - Slidingpillar
I suspect the council will argue that the moment a door opens and a passenger steps out, the purpose of stopping has changed from stopping for a pedestrian on the crossing (legal) to stopping to let a passenger out (not legal).

The question is though, will a magistrate see it this way? And since it is a magistrate court, the case of precedent does not arise, so even if the driver of this van is found innocent, the exact same charge and circumstances could lead to a successful prosecution the following day.

Last edited by: Slidingpillar on Thu 13 Mar 14 at 10:37
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New Thu 13 Mar 14 11:01 
 Pedestrian crossings - know what is legal ? - Bromptonaut
It's a Penalty Charge issued by the Council so would presumably go to the Traic Penalty Tribunal rather than Mags Ct. Same principle about cases decided on their own facts though without precedent being of any value.

Indeed, the Chief Adjudicator has made it clear that she will not allow appeals for obvious yellow lines even if there's a missing T bar down the road.
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New Thu 13 Mar 14 11:35 
 Pedestrian crossings - know what is legal ? - Zero
>> I suspect the council will argue that the moment a door opens and a passenger
>> steps out, the purpose of stopping has changed from stopping for a pedestrian on the
>> crossing (legal) to stopping to let a passenger out (not legal).

Noo, because he can still not proceed while the crossing is occupied. Knocking them over is even more illegal.
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New Thu 13 Mar 14 12:14 
 Pedestrian crossings - know what is legal ? - Manatee
The photograph clearly shows two people on the crossing. Stupid penalty.

Had he stopped solely to let his son out, he would more likely have stopped ON the crossing, by the gap in the railings, or just before/further on.
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New Thu 13 Mar 14 12:44 
 Pedestrian crossings - know what is legal ? - zippy
As you have to stop when someone is looking to cross and not actually on the crossing, what is the chances that you get a doctored photo showing no one on the crossing and a fine in the post?
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New Thu 13 Mar 14 12:54 
 Pedestrian crossings - know what is legal ? - Bromptonaut
>> As you have to stop when someone is looking to cross and not actually on
>> the crossing, what is the chances that you get a doctored photo showing no one
>> on the crossing and a fine in the post?

Stopping for someone waiting is a should in the HC, needs them to step out for it to be MUST.

Had a barney with a taxi driver who hollered at me on bike for failing to stop when two peds were on the kerb.

In fact they were not even about to step out, I'd tried for eye contact but they were yammering to each other in French.
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New Thu 13 Mar 14 13:04 
 Pedestrian crossings - know what is legal ? - Zero
>> As you have to stop when someone is looking to cross and not actually on
>> the crossing,

Do you?
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New Thu 13 Mar 14 13:10 
 Pedestrian crossings - know what is legal ? - No FM2R
Not in a rental.
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New Thu 13 Mar 14 13:15 
 Pedestrian crossings - know what is legal ? - Bromptonaut
Rule 195


- look out for pedestrians waiting to cross and be ready to slow down or stop to let them cross

- you MUST give way when a pedestrian has moved onto a crossing
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New Thu 13 Mar 14 13:12 
 Pedestrian crossings - know what is legal ? - Armel Coussine
>> As you have to stop when someone is looking to cross and not actually on
>> the crossing,

The law is vague on this, and jobsworth officials can give you a bad time over nothing.

I am polite to people crossing the road, not just at pedestrian crossings but anywhere. However if they are just crossing the other half of the carriageway - even on a crossing - I usually just drive on. People stopping in the road when they don't need to is a pet hate of mine, along with pushy self-righteous pedestrians and cyclists, ghastly passive-aggressive wimps begging to be run over by a texting white van driver.
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New Thu 13 Mar 14 13:14 
 Pedestrian crossings - know what is legal ? - Slidingpillar
Noo, because he can still not proceed while the crossing is occupied. Knocking them over is even more illegal.
True in terms of naughtiness, but the point being argued by the council must be what I said, otherwise they could not issue the ticket.
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New Thu 13 Mar 14 13:21 
 Pedestrian crossings - know what is legal ? - Manatee
>> Noo, because he can still not proceed while the crossing is occupied. Knocking them over
>> is even more illegal.
>> True in terms of naughtiness, but the point being argued by the council must be
>> what I said, otherwise they could not issue the ticket.

I think you are giving the council (or the bounty hunters) too much credit.
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New Thu 13 Mar 14 13:12 
 Pedestrian crossings - know what is legal ? - Cliff Pope
>> I suspect the council will argue that the moment a door opens and a passenger
>> steps out, the purpose of stopping has changed from stopping for a pedestrian on the
>> crossing (legal) to stopping to let a passenger out (not legal).
>>
>>

Would the same argument apply at red traffic lights? Or in a stationary traffic queue if there are double yellow lines?
Getting out for a pee if stuck in a motorway hold-up for several hours?
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New Thu 13 Mar 14 13:19 
 Pedestrian crossings - know what is legal ? - Slidingpillar
Would the same argument apply at red traffic lights? Or in a stationary traffic queue if there are double yellow lines?
Getting out for a pee if stuck in a motorway hold-up for several hours?

To a rational human being, I'd think not - but a council jobsworth whose aim is to raise money, oh yes (think annoying insurance company dog).

We appear to entered a twilight world of rule enforcement with no consideration of the intent of such rules.
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New Thu 13 Mar 14 13:29 
 Pedestrian crossings - know what is legal ? - Armel Coussine
>> a twilight world of rule enforcement with no consideration

'Will uniformed thugs entangle you in a legal process that can only end in the dungeons and torture-chambers of a utopian state? Will you manage to negotiate the obstacle course of a modern jobsworth city? No one knows for sure. All bets are off when you enter ... The Twilight Zone.'

c. Rod Serling, 1956
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New Thu 13 Mar 14 13:34 
 Pedestrian crossings - know what is legal ? - Slidingpillar
Exactly - if I could have pinned the scary music to my post, I would have!
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New Thu 13 Mar 14 21:49 
 Pedestrian crossings - know what is legal ? - Cockle
I'm afraid this is my local council and common sense is not applied in the case of these camera cars.

One resident was ticketed by one of the cars for parking on a single yellow during the one hour restriction between 10-11 which is designed to prevent commuter parking close to a local railway station. What he had actually done was to drive his car off his driveway to allow his wife to get her car out and then reversed back on to the drive. He was, apparently, stopped on the yellow line for 16 seconds. He won on appeal but the question has to be asked why the ticket was ever issued.

In another case a driver was given a ticket for parking on the thick yellow lines designating a bus stop, on which no stopping is allowed; he was in queuing traffic at a red light...... Again won on appeal.

I fully expect this guy to win on appeal.

Don't get me wrong, I think these cars have a place in traffic enforcement, for instance catching those who stop on the yellow zig-zags outside school entrances in the prohibited times but so often no discretion or common sense is applied and because of that they have become hated by virtually all the locals.
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New Thu 13 Mar 14 22:11 
 Pedestrian crossings - know what is legal ? - Fullchat
Of course this type of 'scamming' is the reverse to the fundamental principle that you are innocent til proven guilty. Now I know this has crept in with the use of automated detection equipment but this is going to the next level. Whereby the 'offender' has to spend time and worry appealing. Now I use the term 'appealing' loosely because there was no offence in the first place to appeal. But there again it could be argued that the process is being 'appealed' as opposed to the offence being committed.

This type of treatment of the motorist should be subject to some heavy penalty on the persons recording and processing the 'offence' which may then introduce some common sense. But that 'aint gonna happen.

All went wrong with decriminalisation of parking and sundry offences.

And of course the use of camera technology rather than the interaction between two humans. No confrontation issues for some little jobsworth.
Last edited by: Fullchat on Thu 13 Mar 14 at 22:15
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New Fri 14 Mar 14 08:50 
 Pedestrian crossings - know what is legal ? - Cliff Pope
I'm afraid it is the invention of cars themselves that started the trend.
Before that time there was a pretty clear distinction between right and wrong, and it was quite easy for an ordinary citizen to live his whole life without ever doing anything unlawful.

But the invention of cars, and the need to police the actions of drivers, has created a vaste field of technical offences, ranging from outright dangerous driving through to overstaying at a parking meter by one minute.
Many of the penalties amount to nothing more than a small automatic fine, and indeed can be bought off legally just by purchasing more parking time in the first place.
The result is that it is impossible to go through life now without committing some infringement of the law. This blurring of the old concept of right and wrong has lowered respect for the law generally, and its enforcers in particular.

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New Fri 14 Mar 14 13:40 
 Pedestrian crossings - know what is legal ? - Armel Coussine
>> it is impossible to go through life now without committing some infringement of the law.

Yes, as I have pointed out briskly several times, all motorists are criminals by definition.
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New Fri 14 Mar 14 09:36 
 Pedestrian crossings - know what is legal ? - Westpig
>> Now I use the term 'appealing' loosely because
>> there was no offence in the first place to appeal.

Exactly.
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