The car has been running a lot better since the plugs were changed but I had a journey of 10 miles today to the builders merchants to pick up a new sink basin and Peglar taps and within the first 2 miles, the car surged forward as I began to release the clutch and the ECU light came on, and about 6 miles later it stalled when I had the clutch down to the floor at a junction.
I am getting a bit sick of this now, in an ideal world I would go to the main dealer and let them sort it out, but once I know what the fault is I am sure I can fix this quite cheaply just need guidance.
People may remember one of my plugs was fouled, so I am guessing the same fault I am having now is what caused the plug to go faulty. Is it likely to be something as simple as a duff coil?
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Get the codes read, although with your IT experience you've probably got the tools to do yourself. Any problems should be stored in the memory. Don't take what they tell you as gospel, but analyse the results.
I'm sure any Fiat/Panda forums could give you advice on how to do this better than us.
For what it's worth, my guess is dodgy coil pack (previous spark plug discolouration) or MAF (Mass Air-Flow sensor).
Don't go throwing money at it on cowboy diagnosis (I mean me) until you take time to consider the results.
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You bought it new. It's still under warranty. Take it to the dealer and tell them to sort it.
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www.fiatforum.com/blogs/x-frankie-rabbit-x/1486-help.html
I think FIAT programme in faults to pop up at 37 months.
Maybe time for an i10 or Picanto ?
Last edited by: Lygonos on Wed 5 Feb 14 at 23:14
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My money is on the coil pack too, I think the Panda has two packs, which feed two cylinders each. There is some cosmetic damage in the back of the car due to me using as a van in recent months with all the DIY projects. I am half tempted to buy a new car but providing this is a simple fault it is not worth it. Other than this issue, the car is running very well and frankly have better things to spend money on than cars at the same time my 4 year old Panda will still be worth something when it comes to trade in.
I must say I am impressed with Hyundais warranty with my dads i10, I am so impressed with all the work is has needed under the warranty.
Brompton my Panda is now well out of warranty, and yes it is amazing how times fly, it was 7 years ago since I first started posting with the woes of Rattle on HJ!
Lygonos thanks for that, not read that myself :(. That makes me want to get rid :(.
Last edited by: RattleandSmoke on Wed 5 Feb 14 at 23:20
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I really don't want to buy a new car, that will only be a last resort. I am planning of going part time with my business in September 2015 and going to university full time to my teaching (lecturing) qualification.
I might not need a car then so the last thing I want to do now is get bogged down with more finance.
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Put some of that red stuff in a tank of petrol, recruit three of your maddest friends and drive to the South of France as quickly as possible, changing the oil and filters first if necessary (but it probably isn't).
I absolutely guarantee that your car will run better when you get back. Honestly Sheikha you neglect and ignore the thing and choke it to death pootling round longsight or wherever... what d'you expect? Wellie, man, wellie!!!!
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I am quite offended that you think I potter about Longsight :p. Although I was in the Longsight area today as my main computer suppliers is near there as in Selco.
I do need to put some redex into it, I am just a bit worried that it could be something more serious such as a bad wiring loom etc.
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>> a bit worried that it could be something more serious such as a bad wiring loom etc.
Why should it be? In the unlikely event that it is, you are covered by warranty. The reason your car isn't running properly is that you drive it too little and too slowly. You are choking it to death just going down to see your dealer in Longsight and pootling back again.
Don't get offended. I mean well by you. Drive the goddam thing, give it a lot of revs for a long time.
I don't think Redex is the best stuff. There's something better, can't remember its name. But I guess Redex will do. Lots of it, and lots of revs.
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I have to say I can't be bothered reading all if the thread on this. 'cos
What is the car reporting via the diagnostic port? Errors etc
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I could help you read codes. Not tomorrow.
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That is the problem no error code is showing up, my indie has very expensive equipment but I don't think he pays to have it up dated, so I suspect my ECU generates some codes that his machine cannot read. Really need to get my own USB or blue tooth one.
Having a code will certainly help but doesn't always show that the actual problem is.
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>> going to university full time to my teaching (lecturing) qualification.
Why do you need a 'qualification' for this. With a degree you can teach at university level surely? Or is your Salford degree not the equivalent?
We had lecturers with only BSc teaching us. Some now professors without a PhD. And one co-designed ARM.
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I do have a full honours degree, I have a 2:1 BSc (Hons) but to teach in colleges you need DTLLS or above. The easiest way to get a job is do to a PGDE in Adult Education. It is a one year course and is very similar to a PGCE but also includes the DTLLS qualifications.
I also have a PTTLS qualification which is the legal minimum I need to teach in colleges, but the reality is you can't get a job with just that. To teach at universities now you really need a PhD or a heck of a lot of industry experience.
A lot of my lectures only had BSc degrees or masters but things have changed a lot now sadly. I found the researchers were worst lecturers as they felt they were above teaching because they were a professor or had doctor in their title.
Last edited by: RattleandSmoke on Thu 6 Feb 14 at 00:29
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Many lecturers will have just got jobs... for knowing their 'stuff'
Best of luck but the course is no guarantee of anything. Because most of what you want to do needs a qualification you've got.
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>> That is the problem no error code is showing up
We had an error via light on the Seicento. Indy used their 20 quid probe and showed nothing. Phone rang and I had a look.
I then bought a £7 device to check this. I posted in another thread of yours. It told me the problem... bought the part and all sorted.
You make this hard. This Blueooth OBDII device was £7 and the software to read codes free!
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I need to get one, I just thought the problem was sorted as the car has been running a lot better since I had the plugs changed until today. Now I realise the fact the plugs have needed changing so early is a symptom of the problem and not the cause.
I will order one, I will get the same one you did as there is more chance of it working (tried and tested). What software did you use?
The problem is with these testers is a lot of garages buy them and they think they will solve everything but if they are not updated they are useless. I think my ECU was revised in 2009 so a reader older that won't be able to see some of the codes I am guessing.
Last edited by: RattleandSmoke on Thu 6 Feb 14 at 00:32
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How about we try mine tomorrow for you?
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That would be very kind of you, my last job is at 2:00 but that won't take long, so should be free from 3pm onwards if that suits?
Thanks :).
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How I hope rtj is going to get his hands and feet on Ratto's poor little motor and give it a proper blast.
If he doesn't do that he can read error codes till kingdom come and it will still be asthmatic. For blindingly obvious reasons.
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For once in your life, do what you are told on here, and take the ruddy thing to the FIAT dealer.
"I might have to buy a new car" honestly you are a complete wazzock at times.
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>> For once in your life, do what you are told on here, and take the
>> ruddy thing to the FIAT dealer.
+1 to everything Zero says, but take it to the dealer in Carlisle, and give it a blast up the motorway to get there. Eighty in fourth.
If I didn't know better, I'd think you were employed by the site owner to generate traffic. This thread (which could be shortened into "take it to the Fiat dealer (and read the code first if you insist)") will doubtless reach a couple of hundred posts.
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On Thursday 6th Feb Mapmaker wrote:
>If I didn't know better, I'd think you were employed by the site owner to generate traffic.
>This thread (which could be shortened into "take it to the Fiat dealer (and read the code f
>first if you insist)") will doubtless reach a couple of hundred posts.
I think I sadly underestimated the popularity of this thread... 211 and counting.
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>> On Thursday 6th Feb Mapmaker wrote:
>> >If I didn't know better, I'd think you were employed by the site owner to
>> generate traffic.
>> >This thread (which could be shortened into "take it to the Fiat dealer (and read
>> the code f
>> >first if you insist)") will doubtless reach a couple of hundred posts.
>>
>> I think I sadly underestimated the popularity of this thread... 211 and counting.
>>
>>
You shouldn't underestimate how long a rattle thread can run for!
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>> I think I sadly underestimated the popularity of this thread... 211 and counting.
>>
>>
I had planned to monitor the posts on this thread and when it got to 179, I was going to post:-
ONE HUNDRED AND EIGHTY!!!!!!
But I blinked.
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The basic ECU codes should be EOBD II compliant, and so any scanner will be able to read them. If the EML has been on then there should be a code stored - however, it may be a red herring, as sometimes the light comes on just because the engine has stalled.
Get the codes read and see what it says, but I would whip the plugs out (especially the one that looked duff last time) and see what they look like - they should still look essentially new. Then do as AC says, and go and give it a damn good thrashing with some decent petrol and injector cleaner in it - get it hot and rev it to the red line under load a few times. You might even find you enjoy it :-))
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Also agree with Zero. Just get it booked in and be done with it.
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>> Just get it booked in and be done with it.
Depending on what Rattle's main dealer is like, that could turn out to be a costly option unless it comes under the warranty. Since there's no real indication there's anything wrong with the car, the injector cleaner/Italian tune-up should be tried first being quick and inexpensive.
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>>I must say I am impressed with Hyundais warranty with my dads i10, I am so impressed with all the work is has needed under the warranty.>>
You've got me baffled with that one....:-(
Surely not needing to have work done under the warranty would prove far more impressive....?
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Rattle, you've had some harsh comments above which I won't add to, but I do agree with those who say that your car needs a long run from time to time.
One great virtue of Manchester is that just north of it is some of England's most beautiful countryside. There are plenty of places that Mr Average Tourist hasn't heard of - such as the Trough of Bowland and, a bit further north, the valley well named Eden.
Take yourself - and a friend perhaps - out for a day's drive, just for driving's sake. Drive your Fiat in the spirited way that the Italian designers intended. Get it thoroughly warmed through and I'm willing to bet it'll go one hell of a lot better. And you'll have some fun too.
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The benefit of the Trough is that there are very few opportunities to place speed cameras. On the downside, it is very difficult to get any speed sustained. And the road is narrow twisting and bordered by rock on one side and steep drops on the other. Good for testing brakes.
Now, the road between Macclesfield and Buxton is the polar opposite: fast and open but with a 50 limit thanks to the martyrdom of idiot motorcyclists.
Last edited by: NIL on Thu 6 Feb 14 at 20:40
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I will go on a nice trip into Derbyshire in March when the weather warms up a little bit. I must admit the last time my car went outside of Manchester was in September 2012 and I have done about 8000 miles since then. Even then I only managed to go to as far as Hayfield but I did camp there for the night.
I can do italian tunes up without going too far though, the A34 Kingsway is a 40mph limit but I can just do 40 in 2nd and 3rd for a mile or so will certainly blow the cob webs away although my attract attention from the plod!
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I'm not sure 40 in 3rd will blow many cobwebs away!! The great thing about Italian cars us they thrive on being thrashed. Neglect that and they get all grumpy and unloved :-)
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Well mine was made in Poland so shall I just give it some beer and vodka?
Although the engine and electrics are all Italian.
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It may have been made in Poland, but it's heart and soul are Italian :-)
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>> I can do italian tunes up without going too far though, the A34 Kingsway is
>> a 40mph limit but I can just do 40 in 2nd and 3rd for a
>> mile or so will certainly blow the cob webs away although my attract attention from
>> the plod!
40 in second is not an italian tune up. Its not even half a tune up.
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The Cheshire ring circuit....M60/M56/M6/M62/M60 and home. Pop round it at a steady 75.
Nearer than A34.
HO
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At a steady 75.
Is that in third?
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I wonder what speed a FIAT Panda like Rattle's gets to in third???
I did say earlier today that I could try my code reader if Rattle wanted tomorrow - I hope he didn't think I meant today as the post was after midnight. And earlier in the thread I mentioned not tomorrow when it was still Wednesday.
The fact there are no warning lights on says to me there probably aren't any fault codes*. And I cannot guarantee anything. All I know it worked reading a fault code on our FIAT and it was cheaper than the dealer.
* And Rattle said somewhere else had tried reading fault codes already. Italian tune-up is what I'd try first as well.
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How can the guy not just get in his blinkin car and drive it a couple of junctions on the motorway and back again!!!!
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And he lives near a motorway or two. No idea why he won't or can't.
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>> How can the guy not just get in his blinkin car and drive it a couple of junctions on the motorway?
This is a conundrum that has defeated the world's most eminent scientific minds for decades. The world population should prepare for the possibility that no plausible explanation may ever be found.
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And without forward planning he's not going to get my help. Offer still stands but I don't think there are error codes otherwise a dash light would be on.
I have a 'job' to do but Rattle is welcome to come to/near where I am and I can help. But he's not said he wants this tomorrow. He mentioned when he might finish above but I suspect that was yesterday.
For £7 I think the OBDII Bluetooth device was a useful bargain for me. Paid for itself already and now have it.
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Forest of Bowland/Trough of Bowland, 45 minutes from my front door.
Fond memorys.
Mid Week in Summer. Panda 100 HP, engage sport button and drive it like you stole it.
PS....Watch out for the sheep......................
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>> PS....Watch out for the sheep......................
Its ok - He is behind the wheel
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>> For £7 I think the OBDII Bluetooth device was a useful bargain for me. Paid
>> for itself already and now have it.
>>
Where d'you get it?
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Not much response from Rattle for the past 13hrs. Perhaps he has a sore head...
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-26080108
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>> Not much response from Rattle for the past 13hrs.
>>
Maybe he took his Panda on an Italian tune-up and the engine blew up miles from anywhere?!
Oh no, hang on. He doesn't drive that far.
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>> Where d'you get it?
Amazon market place. I checked and it was a few pennies under £7.90 including delivery.
Last edited by: rtj70 on Fri 7 Feb 14 at 10:12
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Was on the verge of getting one of those ELM327 units for sub £7 from eBay a day or two ago - but then discovered it won't work with an iPhone or iPad using bluetooth, in case anyone had that thought. You have to pick a different non bluetooth solution.
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I have Android anyway so will work. I will order one now. Car was running ok yesterday, the EMU light came on in the morning but was running sweet since then. Now have to go to my suppliers to pick up a hard drive, which is about 7-8 miles round trip so I will see how it behaves then. I could do with my own reader anyway as this will not be the last time an engine management light comes on.
I fell asleep early last night as I got little sleep the night before which is why I have not been on. PS never been to a rave in my life :). I prefer the Smiths Disco!
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>>the EMU light
The result of EMU was the ECU.
>>as this will not be the last time an engine management light comes on.
Saying this is just asking for trouble, but they don't come on very often. And if the cambelt goes it's fairly obvious why the light has gone on... (my last light.)
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>> >>the EMU light
>>
>> The result of EMU was the ECU.
ROFLOL
>> Saying this is just asking for trouble, but they don't come on very often.
All the light is telling you is that an abnormality has been detected. Some cars give clue as to type of abnormality by flashing/staying steady. If the fault is transient the light may extinguish after a certain time or after one or more engine restarts.
The Xantia had a part of it's waste gate control that was a bit sluggardly (or maybe premature) ans would cause a 'gag' under hard acceleration. The ECU 'K' light would then illuminate only to extinguish on next but one restart leaving only a tell tale P code behind.
Having ascertained it would not lunch the engine I stopped worrying and just avoided the mid revs right foot heavy behaviour that triggered it.
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>>Now have to go to my suppliers to pick up a hard drive, which is about 7-8 miles round trip
So a 3 or 4 mile journey. Twice. That's hardly going to get the temperature up to proper operating levels!
PS I hear The Smiths are playing a one off gig tonight in Glasgow but is only open to anyone who drives there in a Fiat Panda...........
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ACE! I'll nick rattles panda, thrash it up to glasgow, throw a bottle or ten at morrisey, stay overnight and watch the game to insult Rangers playing in some lower league, thrash his car back down the M6 and leave it steaming and sighing in some manchester back street.
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>> and leave it steaming and sighing in some manchester back street
but probably running more smoothly than it currently is??
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I read some years ago that one of the car manufacturers, possibly Ford, had said that the average driver rarely used more than half the maximum power output of their engine. No wonder that an Italian tune is a benefit to many engines.
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>> I read some years ago that one of the car manufacturers, possibly Ford, had said
>> that the average driver rarely used more than half the maximum power output of their
>> engine. No wonder that an Italian tune is a benefit to many engines.
>>
Probably depends on the output of the engine. I can well believe it with bigger engines, especially fitted to smaller cars, but I would expect a base Panda to be seeing the upper ends of its output on a regular basis, which as others here have said, would be a good starting point here.
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I'd say Ford were right. If you have a car rated at say 60bhp at 5500 rpm, and you never use more than 3000 rpm and then not at full throttle, you will be managing with 30bhp.
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My car only has 54bhp so I don't really have anything spare!
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I know someone who only uses high revs when moving off from a cold start. Pointing out that it doesn't really need 5000 before selecting 2nd, gets a denial. On the move, rare to use more than half rev range.
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Got a lot worse today, I now know the pattern the car looses power even when I am doing a steady speed say 30mph then the EML light comes on for about 3 seconds and goes out. The second it goes out the car then behaves normally.
Hopefully my scanner should arrive in the next couple of days so I will have a better idea of what is going on.
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I'd get the fault code read ASAP and not be driving it. I would have thought if the EML comes on it would stay on until the fault was resolved. Sounds like an intermittent problem which are always the worst whatever they are affecting.
On our FIAT, the light was always on and it turned out to be a temperature sensor. The car isn't driven much and rarely by me. But when fairly recently I thought there was some sort of hesitance. But then I normally drive a 170PS diesel turbo and this is a 54PS petrol! So it might have been me imagining things.... temperature sensor changed and it's how I thought it should be.
Knew it was right as soon as I drove from the local indy who fitted it - I didn't have a long enough bit for the ratchet to get at it. But to reset the engine management light I had to turn off the car and use the Android app to reset it. Even thought the car was running fine the error needed resetting and this could only be done when the engine was off.
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Yep, I am assuming that the EML light can come on when the engine knows something is not right but it doesn't know what so the light comes on.
This could be a nightmare to resolve, but hopefully with the data from the scanner it will be possible to diagnose what the problem is. I suspect it is throttle sensor related and that one of the sensors that feeds that is giving duff info. My biggest dread is that this is a wiring loom issue due to the fact it is intermittent. It is all pure guess work though, but when it looses power it doesn't feel like a miss fire.
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It is possible that the fault is nothing to do with the electronics system.For example,you could have an inlet/exhaust valve issue,the ecu would flag a misfire/low power on cylinder x .So a scanner is not going to show this type of fault.Remember,computers are clever,but they have no brain.
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If it was something mechanical though I would have thought this issue would be there all the time? It only seems to happen once every 50 miles or so although it is now getting a lot more frequent (happened twice in 20 miles).
What I am not doing is going down the route of paying £100s in trying things, because I may as well get a new car if I am going to do that.
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With a gummed-up engine that has hardly ever reached full operating temperature and never been over 3,000 rpm a sporadically sticking valve is quite possible.
Is it rude to ask, Sheikha, whether you have tried the injector cleaner/Italian tune-up solution yet? Reset the codes by all means, but wouldn't it be a good idea to get it to run properly first in the cheapest and most obvious way? Why do you want to throw money at it? Time enough for that when the other thing hasn't worked.
I thought you were supposed to be hard up. Why come on like a mechanically illiterate millionaire? Seems perverse to me.
(Injector cleaner cleans up the exhaust ports and valves too, or anyway it seems to).
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Still need to that, but with the symptons etc it does seem to be more sensor/electrical related. The only thing that makes me think it could be valve related is that the engine is sounding a little tapetty. My scanner is due to arrive tomorrow according to Amazon so hopefully that will give me a clue.
In the mean time I will put some redex in and see if that helps.
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Give the engine some work - as described earlier! What happened to the vigorous run up the hill to the Peak District? Then, having given the engine some fuel with detergency (NOT a part of EN yet!) try the scanner maybe. Don't put all your faith in scanners. Ask yourself, what might the thing not read?
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>> In the mean time I will put some redex in and see if that helps.
There's better stuff than Redex. VW have some of their own which is said to be good, and there's another one I've used whose name I can't remember. Ask a proper garage man (not some carphound who just wants your money).
Read the instructions of course, but put in the maximum amount proportionate to the petrol that is permitted (it isn't that critical, a bit too much is better than much too little), and don't expect it to work well without giving the car some beans over quite a few miles. Just pootling around as usual won't cut the mustard.
I've started worrying that if you have a couple of sticking exhaust valves you may have burned them and their seats with your driving style. Probably not of course, but if you have it's a head-off job.
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He's right of course. Dose then beans for 20-30 miles. Get it hot and make it work. Applies to other things too.
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Stop feeding lines to BBD...
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>>
>> if you have it's a head-off job.
>>
>>
You are being too severe on poor Rattle.
That kind of punishment should be reserved for major offences like tinkering with gas cookers or mismanaging a funeral.
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Rats
If you come for a run to Glossop we can use my code reader and see whats occuring
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Followed by a run over Snake Pass? - that will blow out any cobwebs!
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>> Followed by a run over Snake Pass? - that will blow out any cobwebs!
>>
Isn't that now 50 mph, with scameras and hidden police cars?
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He wouldn't even come over to where I live and I'm nearer than Glossop. Then could have gone with him on the M60.
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Lets face it, it is used as a shopping trolley, it will always be used as a shopping trolley, and it will eventually (now) drive like a shopping trolley with a wonky wheel. If it was used as a car should be used it would run like a car should run.
Last edited by: Uncle Albert on Mon 10 Feb 14 at 10:05
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I wonder if Rattle would care to tell us what's the maximum revs he's ever had it to and the maximum it's been held at for more than a mile or so?
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My thing arrived this morning, despite the EML coming on last night, no fault is showing up :(. Checked current, pending, and historical and all show nothing.
Lambda sensor seems to be doing its job. I am still thinking it might be a wiring issue, if it was a mechanical issue such as a valve problem wouldn't it run rough all the time? This morning for example it was running perfectly.
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>>This morning for example it was running perfectly.
Sure it isn't just a misfire, running on 3? Didn't you say that plug was fouling?
Unless you have two faults, the problem is most likely on one cylinder. You've changed the plugs, that leaves fuel (injector) and sparks (could be a few things, but if one cylinder only then quite possibly the coil pack or HT lead if it's old fashioned). I can't remember - boy's 1.3. Dynamic will be here tonight I could have a look at that.
If it was a cam/crank sensor then there'd probably be a fault code?
Last edited by: Manatee on Mon 10 Feb 14 at 11:28
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I'd be tempted to just drop into the local dealer and ask if they can read the fault codes off themselves. Just make sure you get an agreement that if there are no codes, there's no charge since it really is a 2 minute job.
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The Italian tune up thing can be dangerous if overdone Rattle.
An engine that has never seen high RPM is not run in for it. Half a bottle of Millers and getting it properly hot wouldn't hurt though. And check the crankcase breather gubbins isn't blocked with mayo.
I am tempted by one of these www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B0085JE3X8 for less than a tenner. Unfortunately it would be most use on the MX5, the only car I have that ever ails, and it's not OBD2. That aside, are they any good? Is that the sort of thing you've got Rattle?
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That similar to the one I got but about £1 more :-)
When I used an indy garage's OBD2 wired reader it showed no faults. But the Bluetooth one I got plus the free Android app did.
Maybe Rattle needs to drive around with the app running/connected to see what error is flagged when the light comes on. He seems to know how to make it come on at will which might be a clue to what the problem is.
Remember the OBD2 port is live all the time so leave this connected and it will drain the battery a little and anyone else can connect to it too.
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>> Italian tune up thing can be dangerous if overdone Rattle.
>> An engine that has never seen high RPM is not run in for it.
It used to be true, and I have myself twice broken the top piston ring(s) by revving an old car too high. But they were old enough to have developed a 'step' in the cylinder wall at the normal tdc position, and loose enough for the piston to rise slightly too high at full stretch. I doubt very much that it would happen with a modern engine that hasn't really been run in at all, 30,000 miles or not.
However we wouldn't want to make things worse for Rattle, so he should increase the crankshaft speed cautiously bit by bit. This will force him to cover some miles at moderate to high engine speeds and will be good for his driving too.
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RJ I would have come round and was very pleased by your offer, but on the Friday I had a job an emergency job and I on had decided to buy one anyway due to the fact my indie could not get a code from his £2000 machine.
Just done 12 miles in it today now, running perfectly without a miss fire (I would be able to feel it) and again no fault codes.
One of the parameters that looked wrong was the air intake temperature, this was 23c despite it being no more than So outside, however I assume this is simply because the engine generates heat so so the air coming into the engine will be a lot higher than the ambient temperature.
Just not sure what I more I can do at the moment until the fault gets worse. There is no smoke or anything else unusual. The car does use a bit of oil (about 250ml per 1000 miles) but my car has always done that since new, and FIAT assure me that 1000ml per litre is the tolerance so it is fine.
In order I think:-
Put some injector cleaner down it (will do that today)
Get a compression test done
Test the coil packs and the resistance of the HT leads.
Get the valve clearances checked (this needs to be done for the service anyway).
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>> FIAT assure me that 1000ml per litre is the tolerance so it is fine.
They always say that. But using the entire sump full every 4,000 miles would be ludicrous. Friend of mine had a Mini laying enough smoke to hide a battleship and they told him it was within tolerance.
250ml / 1,000 miles is unusually high I would say, but probably within the 'normal' range - just.
You might find it uses less if you let the level drop to minimum, and just top it up to the mid point, rather than topping up whenever it drops just below maximum.
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>> indie could not get a code from his £2000 machine.
Maybe there are no fault codes to find :-)
>> The car does use a bit of oil (about 250ml per 1000 miles)
I wonder if that is common to FIAT Panda's. Similar engine in our Seicento 1.1 and that does not use oil. Some will say how you drive it to begin with can lead to oil use continuing because of bedding in. Maybe that was the case when engine tolerances were much lower.
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If it's using 250ml oil every 1,000 miles. And you say it is not showing any smoke from the exhaust to suggest it is burning it.... where's it going? Have you got oil on the road under the car when it sits parked up?
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>> If it's using 250ml oil every 1,000 miles. And you say it is not showing
>> any smoke from the exhaust to suggest it is burning it.... where's it going? Have
>> you got oil on the road under the car when it sits parked up?
Soot burns off in the catalyst probably. My MX5 uses near enough that much, but no sign or smell of oil smoke. And it isn't leaking (since the cam cover gasket was changed).
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No oil leaks etc. Pretty much from day one it was the same, it has never got any worse so never bothered. The main dealer service includes a litre of top up oil so must expect it to be use a little bit of oil. The old Fiesta would burn a lot more but still ran fine.
If anything it uses slightly less than it did.
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250ml per 1,000 miles wouldn't show up in the exhaust.
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RJ if your wifes FIAT is the 1.1 Sporting then it will be exactly the same engine as mine, they have been made since the mid 80's and the engine itself is virtually unchanged with only the engine management systems been modified.
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I wonder about the mass airflow sensor. (Mentioned already IIRC)
We had a problem with loss of power when pulling hard in our Fabia tdi. A new MAF from eBay, self-fitted, cured it.
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Ours is the Seicento 1.1SX but the engine is the same as the Sporting I think - the difference being the body kit.
Ours wasn't running quite right and was sluggish. But the engine light was on all the time. Error code did not show on a reader similar to this:
www.auteltech.com/autelcms/Code%20Readers&Code%20Scanners/357.jhtml
But it does with the ODB2 plug and software on the Android phone. That error code was likely to be a temperature sensor and with all these things you have to attempt to fix the things you think it is. And the part was only about £20 or similar I think. That sorted it but needed help fitting it due to access.
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Been at jobs in between posting here, so not had time to research it yet, but my early goggling suggests that 23c the air take temperature is too high considering it is 5c out there.
I don't think my car has a outside temperature sensor, so the computer will have no way of knowing if it is faulty unless the values are something stupid like 100c or -40c or something.
Do you know what the difference between the torque lite and pro versions are? I am using the lite and that seems to do everything I need.
The 1.1SX is the 1108cc FIRE, so the same as mine, although I think yours will be single point injection where as mine is multipoint. Yours will be exactly the same engine found in the Punto MK1, the 55.
The smaller engines in that car were the old antique OVH push rod engines.
Last edited by: RattleandSmoke on Mon 10 Feb 14 at 14:06
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I used the free lite versions. Our sensor was for the engine coolant temperature one and not air temperature and was not giving a reading. These sensors can either fail open or closed so either read high or low. It was worth a punt as the error code mentioned it.
The symptom was the car seemed a bit lacking in power. And I suspect the car was running in some sort of safe mode. It's underpowered anyway with only 55PS so not that noticeable if you normally drive it. I rarely drive it but as soon as the sensor was replaced the drive home I knew it had sorted it. Did try resetting the error at the indy garage but hadn't realised you had to do it with the engine off.
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Rattle, with the engine off and cold. Turn the ignition on but don't start the engine.
Then using the OBD2 reader + software:
- Check Inlet Air Temperature
- Check Coolant/Water Temperature
They should be the same when the engine is cold I would think and I suspect they are not for your carand you've already pinpointed an issue with air temperature sensor. Whether it's the cause of your problem but surely it should be reading around 2 or 3 deg today.
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For what it's worth, some temperature readings from my car just now. It was driven last around 11:45am today and did a few miles so warmed up a bit and has cooled down since:
- Outside temperature 5.5 deg C
- Water temperature was 50 deg C before starting the car
- Air inlet temperature was reporting 11 deg C
I've since driven somewhere and back and the water temperature climbed to 60 deg C and the inlet air temperature to 18 deg C. If Rattle had been driving his for a bit then the 23 deg C might be right. If it was when it was totally cold then might be worth checking further.
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Thanks that is a massive help, popping to a job in West Didsbury in 20 minutes, so I will monitor the temperatures from the start and end of the journey, I am starting to think it is behaving normally though.
I have just downloaded a FIAT app which plugs into Torque Pro so I may get the paid version just in case this extra plugin might tell me more info outside of the OBD.
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Just checked from cold, intake temperature, 30c! Coolant, 48c. I will know more after my next drive, but I think I am onto something with the faulty sensor.
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Just got back, two short journeys of around 2.5 miles each way.
Journey one:
Intake temperature at start:30c
Intake at end: 23c
Journey two:
Intake temperature at start 30c
Intake at end: 26c.
Seems there is something not right with the temp sensor, I am assuming that the word intake does mean the air intake temperature.
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Yes it is measuring the temperature of the air entering the engine.
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Thanks, looks like now at least have a direction to start my diagnostics. I suspect when it runs rough and looses power, the value is something silly like and it suddenly changes, so it might be 25c and suddenly jump from -5c confusing the fuel system.
Might of course be a faulty connector but the wiggle test should find that out.
Of course this might not be the actual fault causes the symptoms, but it certainly looks to be faulty. Where did you get your part from? I have checked on euro car parts but can't find it.
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First thing tomorrow morning, without even starting the car. Turn on ignition so it's on and get a reading for air inlet temperature. It's a cold night so if it reads high there is a good chance this is wrong.
Our part was a different sensor to your - water coolant temperature. Found it online and including postage was still less than the FIAT garage... went to the FIAT garage all the same. The part I needed was cheaper though. About £20 or thereabout.
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If the car has a mass air flow sensor, the ambient air temperature sensor might be one of its functions, i.e., there may not be a seperate air temperature sensor.
Of course, check wiring, power supply and earth before condemning the sensor.
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I think the FIAT Panda's temp sensor will indeed part of the MAF sensor.
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Mine has a MAP sensor instead, but you are right it looks like it is apart of the MAP. This is the part, although I will probably want a Bosch or similar branded one.
www.ebay.co.uk/itm/MAP-Sensor-Manifold-Air-Pressure-FIAT-PANDA-PUNTO-GRANDE-0261230030-46553045-/400637048337
I am still not sure if the air intake temperature is apart of the MAF or if it is a separate part, as I have found the part separately as well.
Last edited by: RattleandSmoke on Mon 10 Feb 14 at 23:20
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You are wasting your time .A possible faulty (doubtful)air temp sensor will not cause a problem with one spark plug.A more comprehensive dianostic scanner should read any faults logged.Cheap ones only read half the story.Perhaps there is a fault with an ht lead(s)?
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Well, I'm a mere female but the first thing I would have done would have been taken that plug out after a few miles to see what it looked like!
Pat
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>> Well, I'm a mere female but the first thing I would have done would have
>> been taken that plug out after a few miles to see what it looked like!
>>
>> Pat
Me too. Not that I've seen a spark plug in anything bigger than a mower since 1993.
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Way back in February 2014 if my memory serves me rightly, Bromptonaut suggested:
"You bought it new. It's still under warranty. Take it to the dealer and tell them to sort it. "
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...to which Rattle replied "Brompton my Panda is now well out of warranty, and yes it is amazing how times fly, it was 7 years ago since I first started posting with the woes of Rattle on HJ!"
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>> Well, I'm a mere female but the first thing I would have done would have
>> been taken that plug out after a few miles to see what it looked like!
>> Pat
The result of riding a 2-stroke Ariel Leader?
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...and as a result of trying to get a Bantam up Three Trees Hill at Withcote!
Legs down and push every time it fired to get over the top:)
Pat
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I do wonder if Rattle is chasing a bit of a red herring. The spark plug that was blackened was caused by something and was the only spark plug like it. Maybe not firing properly and the cause was not the plug but the HT leads or coil pack. I hope he takes the advice on here and looks at the plug soon.
Going back to the temperature sensors, this morning the ambient temperature here was 3.5 deg C. Before starting the car the coolant temperature was showing as 4 deg C and the air inlet temp as 5 deg C. After driving four miles the outside temperature had dropped to 3 deg C, the inlet air temperature risen to 14 deg C and the coolant to 71 deg C (slow to warm remember as it's a diesel).
I wonder what Rattle's Panda thought the inlet temperature was this morning before it had even been started? Around 4 or 5 deg C I'd say.
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Mrs F bought a Bantam as her first bike. Same colour and condition as this one...
www.bsabantamclub.com/wp-content/sp-resources/forum-image-uploads/anderzander/2012/10/BANTAM-002.JPG
I seem to remember it as quite eager for its size and the time.
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That brings back memories Fenlander, but mine was a maroon colour and not as shiny!
Soon swapped it for a Tiger Cub and then the Aerial Leader.
Pat
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>>>Soon swapped it for a Tiger Cub
Really... so did Mrs F... and then after 6mths with that she passed her test and went a bit mad with one like this, higher bars though...
www.motorcyclespecs.co.za/Gallery/BSA%20A65%20Lightning%2070.jpg
Last edited by: Fenlander on Tue 11 Feb 14 at 13:52
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Oh dear!
I remember Bantams as being a sort of yucky green with plunger rear suspension, or GPO red with leg shields.
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Pat: +1. And to make sure it's been fitted properly! Loose plugs are a menace.
Last edited by: NIL on Tue 11 Feb 14 at 11:19
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It started at 4c, after 1 mile it was at 8 so normal, after 2 miles it had shot up to 25c before going down to 18c. Left the car for 45 minutes, started it and the temperature was 22 despite it saying it was 18c 45 minutes ago when the engine was hotter. By the time I got home it was 16c.
The values are all over the place, and if this sensor is faulty it does directly affect the fuel mix.
Nobody seems to be quite sure if the sensor is on the MAP or in the throttle body. As I understand it on the Panda FIRE 1.1 it is apart of the MAP but a separate part that attaches to the MAP sensor.
I do need to have a look at the plugs and see if it has fouled up again, I have only done about 150 miles since they were changed so I figured it would be too early to check now.
I won't be using the car until this evening now as I need to carry on with the kitchen but have jobs this evening so will check then.
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Have you checked your intake pipe for splits before the sensor, it could be detecting warm air from engine bay. Have you checked air box or filter to see if its clogged or got water inside? But i would still go with everyone else and check plug and possibly change HT leads.
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>>>Have you checked air box or filter to see if its clogged or got water inside<<<
IIRC there is a long standing problem with water ingress thro the poorly fitting top cover on the Panda. ( May only be the MultiJet tho).
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>>The values are all over the place, and if this sensor is faulty it does directly affect the fuel mix.
Not on one cylinder/plug only though, ask Horace if he will have a shufty at your car, I'm sure he would suss it out in no time.
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"It started at 4c, after 1 mile it was at 8 so normal, after 2 miles it had shot up to 25c before going down to 18c. Left the car for 45 minutes, started it and the temperature was 22 despite it saying it was 18c 45 minutes ago when the engine was hotter. By the time I got home it was 16c."
Wouldn't you expect it to rise after some time stationary due to the fact that there's no longer cold air being blown through the engine, so it can absorb the engine's residual heat?
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This is beginning to sound very much as if a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, on Rattles part!! Sometimes it's just worth paying someone with the right equipment and who know what they're doing... IMHO...
:-)
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>> This is beginning to sound very much as if a little knowledge is a dangerous
>> thing, on Rattles part!! Sometimes it's just worth paying someone with the right equipment and
>> who know what they're doing... IMHO...
>>
>> :-)
>>
In principle I agree, but seems even main dealers aren't always the font/fount of all knowledge, as my eldest daughter proved a while back:-
www.car4play.com/forum/post/index.htm?t=13406
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It's the fact he mentions the problem with the spark plug that I'd want someone more knowledgeable to take a look. Might there not be another problem that caused the spark to blacken because it's perhaps not working right. But not the sort of fault that's producing a fault code.
Personally I think the temperature thing might be a red herring. And to check if the sensor is faulty then I think the use of a multimeter by someone knowing why they are doing can test it. No point replacing it and finding there was nothing wrong.
If he goes down the FIAT dealership route it will no doubt be costly but Rattle's time is also money. Anything electrical can often be trial an error replacement of parts by a dealer. Had air bag warning on a previous Passat and they must have spend many hundreds (wouldn't be surprised if it was more than £1,000 based on parts and time spent at main dealer rates) trying to sort it including guessing at which bit of wiring loom might need bypassing.... May never have really fixed for all I know.
Last edited by: rtj70 on Tue 11 Feb 14 at 16:39
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Howls about calling someone like this in: www.williamstuning-manchester.co.uk/
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They're only a short drive away from Rattle too - they are based in Cheadle.
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I still want to do further research about these air flow temperatures, I might well be barking up the wrong tree but I want to know for sure. Maniacally speaking though I would have thought a compression test is the next thing to do, then change the HT leads and get the coil packs tested.
The mechanic I took it to has a very expensive machine which cost £2000, if that can't get the fault out then I doubt FIATs own machine can. The light came on under warranty a couple of years ago and FIAT simply told me there was no fault code stored.
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>> then change the HT leads
I'd be inclined to take out plugs and compare them. Is the problem one showing a little discolouration or not compared to the others. How much is a set of HT leads anyway?
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HT leads about £15.90 at EuroCarParts? But again replacing anything without knowing it fixes it is costly.
I'd get someone to take a look. Is it actually running badly since the spark plugs were changed? You said you could reproduce the problem at will and the light came on - can you still do that?
Last edited by: rtj70 on Tue 11 Feb 14 at 17:48
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Not that it relates to Rattle's car problems, but a long time ago my brother had an engine fail on a Fiesta. This was replaced in a back street sort of garage by someone my other brother knew - recon engine. Job had to be done economically. So parts that were 'okay' were re-used.
When he got it back it was not driving well. It was on/off power and felt like it was hopping down the road. Via a friend of our uncle's in the AA we took it to the AA depot for them to look at as a favour. They couldn't figure it out and I knew little about cars/engines. But I eventually asked... should there be visible sparks from the plugs... plugs had been damaged with the engine but not replaced. Plugs replaced by the AA guy and all was well.
Another example of how trying to find a problem can cost and be something else. My second car (my last own car) was a Fiesta and it started hopping down the road... real problem occasionally with it unwilling to go. Very hesitant and/off but not all the time. Took it to the garage I trusted for an opinion and they pointed out tapping noises from engine. Suggested I went to their advised garage to check it out. They said there was a problem with engine and listed a load of problems they could hear including tappets etc and since I had a warranty they suggested it might be related to the problem and I went ahead. It did sound like there was an engine problem and now was the time to sort it as I'd not had it long. And I had hire cars for work anyway....
... engine swapped. Got it back... it was hopping down the road. Not happy. Went back and they blew out fuel lines etc. and it was okay for a bit... and then it went wrong again.
... went back to my friendly garage and they fitted an inline fuel filter (didn't even charge) with the theory dirt was getting picked up from tank.... This sorted it and was a cheap fix. But in the meantime I'd had a replacement engine!
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Car ran quite a bit better since the plugs were changed, although some of that might be down to imagination. 100 miles later the car is still playing up. Most the time it drives perfectly, every smooth etc but just odd times it will play up. Just going to a job now in the mild snow so it will be interesting to see what values the ECU reports and how it drives.
I will look at the plugs and see what they look like.
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Well, we are now up to 139 posts and it's still not sorted.
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>> 139 posts and it's still not sorted.
I don't think it ever will be. The Sheikh seems to think his car's electronics are somehow its essence, and others have been sucked into this utterly faffing and irrelevant view including, somewhat to my shock and horror, Number_Cruncher who I hoped would say something sensible.
Even he seems to have forgotten that far from being a damn silly printed circuit, a car is a CRUDE if fairly complex MECHANICAL DEVICE and should be seen and treated as such.
I am deeply ashamed of you all. FFS shape up or I will have to stop coming here. Then you'll be sorry.
:o} (but I'm right anyway).
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The clue is in the name ;Fix It Again Tomorrow.!!
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Well said AC. In reality we all know this is just leading us to a man maths situation with the justification to buy a new car
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He is once again procrastinating over getting it sorted. Time is money (my time is worth something maybe his isn't) and I'd just get someone to sort it.
It doesn't even sound like there's anything wrong with it. Maybe he thinks there is and there's not.
So for maybe he should just get a new one. Isn't it on some sort of PCP scheme anyway and due the balloon payment soon?
EDIT: He borrowed the balloon payment off his parents in 2012 to pay it off. Forgot that. He now owes them.
Last edited by: rtj70 on Tue 11 Feb 14 at 22:12
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Black. 147-Maximum Break!
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Indeed, it was on a PCP but my parents lent me the money to pay them back. Has been running great again today, but the intake temperatures were well out, a guy on the Panda forum is going to check his tomorrow and compare.
If the air intake values are wrong, then the entire fuel mixture for the car will be wrong.
EML light coming on four times and loosing power, and the stalling are not my imagination. The problem is I can do 100 miles where the car works flawlessly, the next 5 miles will cut out and loose power etc. The car has not misbehaved since this morning when it cut out as I was moving out of a junction but that might have just been me.
I don't have the money to accept what ever diagnostics a random garage gives me, so I want to do as much research as I can before I get into the expensive game of "it will be coil pack £100 please" oh no it is not that, you need a lamdba sensor £200 please, oh it must be the cat, £300 please, oh maybe we will do a compression test, oh you have a burnt valve seal, by this time I have already spent £1000.
Last edited by: RattleandSmoke on Tue 11 Feb 14 at 22:35
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I can see exactly where you're coming from. Without an error code a garage could replace a lot of parts.
For our ageing Seicento (very low mileage considering it's over 12 years old!) I did similar to you. Speedo stopped working so guessed it was probably the sensor and bought one and fitted it. Sorted.
At the time of getting someone to look at speedo the engine light was on (had been for a bit but wife seemed to say it drove okay... it sort of did). But tried reading error code with their scanner... nothing. Before taking to anywhere risked £7.83 on a OBD2 device (would be useful) and pinpointed temperature sensor.
But you have no error code logged. Even an intermittent fault would log something? You also have a spark plug showing an issue... could it be as simple as HT leads? If it's the short one that's connected to the plugs then hard to swap around leads.
Someone in the know would be onto the problem quickly no doubt. FIAT dealership likely to string out the diagnosis to increase income in my opinion.
I'd still suggest taking it onto the motorway and giving it a bit of a thrashing though. Easier to hold high revs on the motorway.
EDIT: And for my own car.... I prefer to not own it. We already have another in the household and we will no doubt find it unreliable at some point. But apart from tax, insurance, MOT (all unavoidable) the cost has been few repairs, three tyres (all punctures - low mileage don't forget) and services and not as many of those as you ought to have. Apart from the bits you cannot avoid (the tax, insurance, MOT) it's been about £5,200 over 12 years at a guess.
Last edited by: rtj70 on Tue 11 Feb 14 at 22:46
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And that sum for the Seicento includes the purchase price. And forgot the front brakes pads were done but that was only £72 recently.
Last edited by: rtj70 on Tue 11 Feb 14 at 22:48
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I sympathise - intermittent faults are maddening. Bearing AC's comment a few posts ago, there is a lot of sense in looking at the simple things first.
If it's not the HT leads - and as RTJ suggests it could well be - try the fuel line. Is there something intermittently blocking fuel feed to the engine?
When I started driving nearly 50 years ago it would certainly have been one of those. The internal combustion engine has more similarities than differences to engines of that era.
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The kitchen is getting in the way of a lot of things at the moment, very busy with work too, so have actually got money to repair it even if it is a major problem but money is still worth more to me than time.
In order what I need to do is put some injector cleaner in, give it a good trash (once it is up to temperature!), change the HT leads (may as well do it anyway it is cheap) then if it still plays up get a compression test done just to eliminate issues there. I am wondering if I am still having problems then it might be worth having an emissions test done, if it was run rich that would show up.
I don't think the Panda has a fuel filter, so it might be just something as simple as crud getting in.
Avant funnily enough I posted the bit about fuel after you posted your comment (we both replied at the same time) and he is very probably onto something when he says we all need to man up and get back to simple mechanics but at the same time I am sure the readings from the AIT are incorrect, that is a vital component for the correct fuel mixture.
Last edited by: RattleandSmoke on Tue 11 Feb 14 at 22:56
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Yesterday I quoth -
Sure it isn't just a misfire, running on 3? Didn't you say that plug was fouling?
Unless you have two faults, the problem is most likely on one cylinder. You've changed the plugs, that leaves fuel (injector) and sparks (could be a few things, but if one cylinder only then quite possibly the coil pack or HT lead if it's old fashioned). I can't remember - boy's Dynamic will be here tonight I could have a look at that.
If it was a cam/crank sensor then there'd probably be a fault code?
I forgot to look at boy's car, sorry - may not be the same as yours anyway, his is 8 years old now.
I'm no expert on these codes, but I do know that interpretation is the skill, not the reading.
Don't forget your temp readings aren't coming from the sensor but the ECU. When/how often does the ECU check the air temp? Is it very different immediately after start up to when you check it before switch on, when it may simply be storing the reading at switch off. See what I mean? I don't know, you probably don't either.
That's why garages looking at fault codes can still be useless. Don't be misled by your gadget.
Your coolant temp sounds low as well IIRC, without going back and checking - to AC's point, that would be a mechanical problem mit thermostat. How's your heater?
Appreciate you are drowning in advice here:)
Last edited by: Manatee on Tue 11 Feb 14 at 23:23
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There must surely be some form of fuel filter.
Fuel injectors don't like even tiny particulates.
Maybe it's in the fuel tank?
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Heater is working fine, but the longest continuous journey I have done in the last couple of days was just 5 miles. It had got upto 81c but the heater was also on. The data seems to refresh about every 10 seconds. Yep probably is one in the fuel tank, but seem to remember reading there is no inline filter e.g one in the fuel pipe.
Number Cruncher will know for sure, but I am guessing the AIT is just a converts the temperature into resistance and it is that the ECU uses to calculate the temperature. The ECU of course will be doing all the calculations. All my gadget does is extract the raw binary data from the ECU onto my phone, the software Torque Lite then reads this data and converts into figures.
It is not sloppy software, the guy that wrote is an expert on engine management and has written a book on it.
Last edited by: RattleandSmoke on Tue 11 Feb 14 at 23:31
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I doubt it'll be anything to do with compression at the age of the car but you can borrow my comp tester if you haven't got one.
I'm leaning towards HT breakdown.
Don't ask me about anything electronic....I don't even know what some of the initials stand for !
Strictly a carbs and points man....that's how I'm staying. Go and see Andy...he won't stripe you. ( He'll give you the number of a good auto electrician...or I will. If needed ).
HO
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Thanks :). I do sometimes regret been old enough to drive the old carb and dizzy cars. If I had passed when I was 17 I probably would have owned one, my mate had one, a 1989 Fiesta 1.0 it had an electronic ignition but no fuel injection. We thought we were clever when we adjusted the carb to make it stall proof. The MOT man had other ideas when he saw just how over rich it was running.
I will change the HT leads anyway, they are too cheap not to. While we are on the subject of ignition I assume it is possible for HT leads and coil packs to fail to the point that they are still working but delivering quite enough high voltage so the plug won't fire as efficiently as it should but will still work.
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>> I assume it is possible for HT leads and coil packs to fail to the point that they are still working but delivering quite enough high voltage so the plug won't fire as efficiently as it should but will still work.
Oh yes - HT leads can have the annoying trick of dissipating the energy along dirty marks, cracks, and moisture on the surface so that intermittent issues can occur.
Sometimes if you look at the engine running in total darkness you see these false circuits glowing and sparking.
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And in this cold cold weather it would make things worse and the are almost four years old, even if the car has done low mileage that is still 4 years of pot holes, bumps, weathering etc and of course rubber (I assume that is what they are made off) degrades anyway.
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Given the relatively low cost and the fact it's an easy job I'd look at changing the HT leads regardless. It's the most likely culprit and the easiest fix.
I wouldn't worry too much about your temperature sensor. Even if it's providing implausible readings to the ECU it shouldn't particularly affect the engine bar making it run a little rich or lean. You're being provided with measurements broadly in line with the outside conditions and while not spot on they're not different enough to cause misfires.
But as you say, the leads are subject to multiple warm-up cool-down cycles, some years old now, and have been rattled around their entire life. You're certainly not going to do any harm in swapping them over.
My previous advice to take it to a Fiat dealer and have the fault codes read there still stands. Your local garage might have a £2000 fault code reader; well, the dealer probably has one that costs 10x that or more.
Also... when you say "money is more important to me than time", it's a bit of a contradiction in terms because time IS money. It's up to you, but if you enjoy the troubleshooting and are happy to write that off in lost income that's great, but at some point you need to balance out missed time from work vs a guaranteed fix.
Change the HT leads.
Last edited by: Fursty Ferret on Wed 12 Feb 14 at 09:18
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If spending money is the problem then starting with the simple things is possibly the way to go.
Plug changed - tick
HT lead next.
Then?
>> I assume it is possible for HT leads and coil packs to fail to the point that they are still working but delivering quite enough high voltage so the plug won't fire as efficiently as it should but will still work.
Both failing IMO is not likely.
I have had a coil pack failure. I guessed that was the problem and I drove about 20 miles with a poorly preforming car to a main dealer who fixed it there and then.
>> oh maybe we will do a compression test, oh you have a burnt valve seal, by this time I have already spent £1000.
If you want to do this a compression tester = £10 on Ebay.
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I reckon it's the flux capacitor.
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>>I do sometimes regret been old enough to drive the old carb and dizzy cars.
Having to adjust the points every 1,000 miles (in the rain). Driving a car that had a life of 30,000 miles, 50,000 if you were lucky. Oh yes, those were the days...
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And they were great fun in the wet/cold weather like now weren't they :-) First time I used WD-40 was to spray inside the distributor cap I should think. Yes bring that back :-)
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I preferred Holts Dampstart, it dried like a lacquer, not leaving a sticky residue.
Once cured a 'tracking' coil with fine abrasive and dampstart - probably still got some somewhere.
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I don't normally comment much on here but after 167 posts I can't help myself.
You've got a problem with your car, why don't you just take it into the dealer or a good specialist and let them fix it? Waiting for it to correct itself, or playing around with a bluetooth diagnostic but not actually knowing what it is or isn't telling you, is not going to help you to fix the car!!!
I can remember when you bought this car new, after various saga's with old an Fiesta (was it?), but I am sensing that you pootle around in this Panda and are not helping yourself or the car in any way. There are numerous posts on this thread of offers to help from other contributors, but you don't seem to want any assistance or even listen to their advice.
Whilst the car is running with a fault that keeps dropping it into limp home mode, it isn't going to be doing it any good. For example if it is mis-firing, you are going to be killing the cat by spraying it with neat fuel that isn' t getting combusted.
Just go and get it sorted!!!
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>> Just go and get it sorted!!!
>>
Simon, I agree with everything you say above & would have posted it myself, but haven't bothered as Rattle will ignore it as he nearly always does with any good advice. Plenty of us on here have been telling him from the day he got the Panda that he he doesn't give it a decent thrashing on a regular basis he will have problems - and that's where we are now. A four mile run through heavy traffic isn't a "good run". All he needs to do is take it to a Fiat dealer to get it sorted then let it stretch it legs for a hundred miles on the motorway at 80mph, but I know he will do neither. The fouled up plug is a big clue that something is amiss with that engine and is something you will never diagnose with a piece of kit off of ebay that cost less than a tenner especially when you have little knowledge about cars.
Last edited by: VxFan on Sat 15 Feb 14 at 21:03
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See, Rats? Even the Silent Majority can't take it any more!
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Leave him alone! who wants to read a post that says "My car wasn't running well so I took it to the dealers and they fixed it"
I always look forward to a new Rattle Saga. They're like little soap operas. I feel I know all the characters and there's always a new disaster round the corner.
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I feel sure he's drawing up a fault tree analysis to help find a solution. His difficulty will be the number of undeveloped events, where he needs further info:) Trouble is they take a bit of prep - which could used to try the easy things first! Anything to put off the evil day. OTOH, he could be very busy with work, which is a more charitable thought.
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Agree with the above.
There comes a time when you've got to stop faffing about with miracle cures that may or may not do any good, probably won't and bite the bullet and pay someone who knows what they're doing to sort it once and for all.
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>> pay someone who knows what they're doing to sort it once and for all.
Let's hope they just drive the car briskly about until it works properly and charge him say 50 quid for an Italian tune-up.
I can't help feeling that the Sheikh would save a lot of money by using taxis instead of having a car. If there was an RSPCC the Panda would be taken into care for neglect and the Sheikh heavily fined.
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What, you mean the RSPCA won't touch his Panda? How racist!
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Been busy with work etc and been dealing with the gasman this afternoon who is servicing the antique boiler.
I have put some injection cleaner into won't know if it helps until a few days. Since I got the scanner my car has been behaving a lot better. Next job is to get the plugs out and see if what they look like.
The main dealer is still going to be a last resort, I can't take it and say
"There is no fault codes, it is running a bit rough sometimes but most the time it runs perfectly" I can guarantee I will leave £80 lighter and still have no diagnosis.
I need to mention again that a mechanic has already used his equipment on it and can;t get a fault code. People on the FIAT site think that if the light comes on when the equipment is connected I should be able to get a code then. Hoping to get some time to go for a longer drive early next week and I will see if that improves things.
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>> Hoping to get some time to go for a longer drive early next week and I will see if that improves things.
Go on a motorway and drive at the motorway limit Ratto. For at least 30 or 40 miles. Once it's properly warm, run it faster in the gears than usual. If you treat it too gently the injector cleaner won't work properly.
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Perhaps try changing the plugs again. There is such a thing as a faulty plug, and such a thing as lightning striking twice in the same place.
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He's probably not even replaced the HT leads yet despite acknowledging they are cheap. A quidk job and will cost around £15.
He'll keep driving this until the problem gets worse and it costs him thousands and he'll then have to borrow the money for a new engine from his parents....
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so far he has bought new plugs, a ODB reader, shortly to buy new leads. It won't be fixed and the bill will be approaching the labour charge for fixing it at the fiat dealer.
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How did you work out that as being the same cost as even an hour at a main dealer? Main dealer probably charges £80/hour? Cost for those items are:
- New plugs - £16 (if fitted yourself)
- ODB Bluetooth reader - £6 from Amazon
- HT leads - £15
So maybe get half an hour main dealer time for that. But of course he'll end up at FIAT anyway.
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Yep, agree with Z. And an OBD reader will tell you pretty much nothing on a complex modern engine management system. It gives you access to the generic, legally mandated data, but the real information is in the manufacturer specific codes which you will only extract with a dealer tool. And even armed with those codes, you need training and experience to be able to correctly interpret what they tell you.
Even a confirmed skinflint like me, and someone who is pretty capable with mechanical stuff, has to accept that, while manufacturers might not have (yet) stopped Joe Public performing routine maintenance on modern cars, they've certainly put a stop to us diagnosing and repairing faults.
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>>. I am half tempted to buy a new car but providing this is a simple fault it is not worth it. <<
This is the clue in Rattle's second post on the thread.
If he continues to run it as it is the fault will develop and he'll be able to justify to himself, buying a new car.....
Not having the option to do that, or to go into debt doing that would have concentrated his mind on doing something/anything to resolve this.
I'm going to sound very old now, but youngsters do have it easy these days.
Pat
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>> I'm going to sound very old now, but youngsters do have it easy these days.
>>
>> Pat
>>
Me too, fix it yourself or walk in my early driving days. At least the cars were mechanical and you did not have to be a computer geek to find out what was wrong with them. Hang on, doesn't Ratts run a computer fixing company? I think he is winding some of you up. :-)
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I agree that Rattle should be finding the time to take this somewhere to get it diagnosed and fixed before the cost of fixing it potentially shoots up. None of us know what is wrong with it. We can guess including the fact it's never driven enthusiastically.
In my example for our temperature sensor on the Seicento, the light was permanently on so I thought I might as well risk £7 to see if something came up which it did. Car was mostly running okay - a little hesitant in my opinion but there's not much go in a 1.1 Seicento anyway! I even offered for him to try out my reader - and I'd have made him drive it a bit too, like the nearby M60.
Pat, it's surprising how the 'young' can ignore something they know ought to know that's wrong but choose to ignore it, e.g.
- Ignore an oil warning light because it's only saying oil is a little low when in fact it's an oil pressure warning meaning there's very little oil in there! Step-son ruined the engine in at least one car doing this - ended up sounding like a bag of spanners but it was fine when he got it
- Ignore the damp/wet on the kitchen floor whereas I found (same step son) that the washing machine outlet pipe didn't go into the wall drainage pipe properly so leaking under the floor!
I could list many things which I'd spot straight away but they chose to ignore.
Maybe this is Rattle maths to justify a new car?
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>> We can guess including the fact it's never driven enthusiastically.
It's hardly driven at all. If it was just driven normally it would probably be all right.
Those 30,000 miles at snail's pace must mean a lot of time at the wheel by someone... does the Sheikh ever lend it to friends without accompanying them? If so, I wonder what they do to it...
I reckon Horatio Ontaltwin (crazy name, crazy guy) might know whether it has ever been driven properly. I wish he would tell us.
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I wonder how many miles his car has done in the time he's had it?
My Passat CC has done low mileage - as I currently do a lot of working from home. Saves some money and the environment. It might have done less than 25,000 by the time it goes back at 3 years old.
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>>Pat, it's surprising how the 'young' can ignore something they know ought to know that's wrong but choose to ignore it, e.g.
<<
It's because they have options, rtj.
We didn't have options to buy new cars, borrow money or ask advice even.
My option was to look in a Haynes manual and get a few tools out,......or walk and not work as I've always lived in villages with no public transport.
If Rattle had to report to a workplace 20 miles away at 7am every day or face the sack he would have to do something about it.
He doesn't, he can indulge himself and his demons.
That's hard...I know that, but most of us on here have never really had those options.
Pat
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>> they've certainly put a stop to us diagnosing and repairing faults.
Not really. Several people here have diagnosed the problem with the Sheikh's car from reading his posts on it over the months and, good God, years, and suggested an obvious cure. Apparently he hasn't understood the diagnosis or tried to correct it yet in the manner suggested.
Of course Fiat won't recommend a bit of simple hard use in so many words. They will take the car in, give it an Italian tune-up and full service, and charge for the full service and any black-box diagnostic procedures that can be charged for.
Then the Sheikh will slowly choke it to death again. It's like a Greek tragedy performed by gerbils and meerkats. Tchah!
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Good grief Rattle, I wish the only problems my car had were engine problems!
Last edited by: nice but dim on Mon 17 Feb 14 at 16:17
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AC, he ignores advice on life events and issues as well. He likes to relay problems and concerns on here I think.
Perhaps now it the time to leave him to do something and report back.
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I think some of the comments are a tad unfair. I am not rich and don't have money to throw away. The last thing I want to do is buy a new car. I can afford it (on finance) but it would just be silly at the same time I don't want to down the expensive route of changing expensive sensors etc.
When it does loose power it feels like the brakes are being pressed, so I suspect this is limp mode. Not following advice is also unfair, I have put in injection cleaner on the advice here.
I simply don't trust any main dealer and that is why I am reluctant to go any where near there. Been extremely busy with work as well so not been able to reply. Apart from Saturday when I had a day off I have been working 12 hours a day or more the last few days.
As for the throw it away thing, due to my parents financial situation I have been forced to learn how to fix things or do without. I am still in middle of fitting a new kitchen from skills I have learnt over the past ten years from being forced to learn how to fix things. I am the first to admit though I am not mechanically minded I am good at using jigsaws and hammer drills but when it comes to spanners I am useless. I even managed to injure myself fitting new taps in the kitchen when the wrench slipped. As for the mileage I am on 15,500 miles now but then I doubt a delivery van that is driven for 10 hours in one day will do much more than 100 miles in that day.
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>>>I am on 15,500 miles now but then I doubt a delivery van that is driven for 10 hours in one day will do much more than 100 miles in that day.>>>>
My delivery van is driven for three and a half hrs every morning 7 days a week delivering newspapers and does 112 miles. And never gives any trouble and its a vauxhall.
Last edited by: mazda chris on Mon 17 Feb 14 at 17:37
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>> I am not rich and don't have money to throw away. Last thing I want to do is buy a new car. I can afford it... <<
A failure of logic if ever there was one. A new car costs more than a visit to the dealer, 'expensive sensors' are still cheaper than a new car, if you can afford the new car, you can afford to fix the one you have which is unlikely to even be run in anyway.
>>When it does loose power it feels like the brakes are being pressed <<
I didnt get the impression you drive fast enough to need them.
>>As for the mileage I am on 15,500 miles now but then I doubt a delivery van that is driven for 10 hours in one day will do much more than 100 miles in that day<<
I used to deliver cars using a Metro as a runner, that easily did 150 miles a day within a 30 mile radius. Didnt hesitate either because we drove it properly.
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"I simply don't trust any main dealer and that is why I am reluctant to go any where near there."
Sorry Rattle but that it is a stupid thing to say. They are not in the business of ripping people off, they rely on repeat business for one thing. I have NEVER had a problem with any of the many ones I have used.
"Hoping to get some time to go for a longer drive early next week and I will see if that improves things."
You are the master of excuses, how much time do you need to go for a drive, you could have done it there and then after you had typed that. Be honest you have no intention of doing anything other than your usual trundling around the streets you normally do !
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>> I think some of the comments are a tad unfair. I am not rich and don't have money to throw away.
I think people know that, and I don't think anyone wants to put you down Sheikha. I certainly don't anyway. That is why I recommended you try a cheap solution first. But as far as I can see you haven't done it, you've just faffed about fault codes and other electronic fine detail. Putting the goddam cart before the horse if you ask me.
Pat is both right and wrong. She thinks you should engage with your car for the mechanical device it is, not imagine it's some sort of computer. And she's envious, as I am, of a young poor struggling techie who has a new nice motor on the never-never and infuriated, as I am, by your failure to use it properly or enjoy it.
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To put that into perspective, it is a £6500 Panda, I didn't go out and buy an Audi A3. I also had a Corsa before that and hated the idea of people getting into stupid debt to buy a car (I still do) but you may remember I lost so much money on that Corsa that enough was enough.
I understand that a lot of people can't afford to spend £6500 on a car at all and I only did because it is essential for my job. If I worked in an office I simply would not even have a car.
Some people just don't enjoy cars, I love cars but hate driving if that can possibly make any sense?
If you think I am bad, my mate has had his Panda for five years and has done 12,000 miles in his, he doesn't have any problems with his despite it being used far more infrequently than mine.
My dealer tried to charge me £400 for a tyre (cheap brand, 3500 miles later the tyre still has more than 3mm tread on it!) an oil change and new pads. I could get a proper tyre for £45 and the pads cost me just £45 fitted at my local indie. They will easily charge me £1000 if I go in with this fault or at least that is my fear!.
Also lets not forget FIAT dealers have a terrible reputation.
Last edited by: RattleandSmoke on Mon 17 Feb 14 at 17:51
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>>it is a £6500 Panda, I didn't go out and buy an Audi A3<<
What makes you think the Audi would have been any better anyway- it would have cost more to fix!
The build quality of the Panda is pretty good. The Poles are (were) better than the italians at screwing things together.
Your logic doea seem a little flawed, i remember you saying that your parents car was more reliable, even though it was having a new gearbox at that point under warranty.
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Sure I didn't say the i10 was more reliable. The Panda is a great car, apart from the small boot is ideal for me, what I meant was I bought just about the cheapest new car on the market at the time.
All I remember saying is that I thought the Hyundai dealer was far better than my FIAT one.
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I fully sympathise with not trusting dealers.
I don't really mind as I check them anyway, but when the Outlander was in for service recently (pre-paid, 3 years servicing in the deal) I asked if they removed the wheels, the answer after a shufty at the service schedule was yes they would, and so I told them where the key was and that I hoped they wouldn't mind cutting off the cable ties that secure the cheapo wheel covers to the winter wheels.
On my return I remarked that the wheel covers had not been off and asked how they checked the brake wear, to which the answer was that if they can see the pad wear through the wheels, they don't bother.
Well I don't think they could TBH; and in any case, that's not a service in my book. IIRC the nomimal price of 3 services was about £650, including basic consumables and labour only.
They do appear to have changed the oil, and claim to have used new air and cabin filters, but given the fairly approximate approach to the brakes I do wonder.
I always want to see the calipers are free anyway, seen one thick pad and one on the metal quite often on neglected old stuff.
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Hello Rattle
My son had a similar fault on his Grande Punto, slight misfire, ECU light coming on and one plug with a markedly different appearance to the others. Fiat wanted to change the MAP, the lambda, the throttle body, the coils and the ECU etc.
We swopped the "coil finger" for the plug in question (£14 from Carparts4less) and the problem went away for a few weeks but came back.
We ended up getting the ECU rebuilt by these people www.ecutesting.com/catalogue/fiat_eculist.html?category=4046 and the problem went away for good.
Its all plug and play.
It seems that when the coils break down the ECU is spiked for good.
HTH
As always
Mark
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Mark I've read stories about the coils wrecking the ECU on the FIRE engine, but apart from a fouled plug which could have just been faulty there is no evidence of a miss fire. Normally it runs perfectly. I do need to get the coil pack tested though to iron out that.
I am hoping to book it with my local indie so he can do tests on all the basic things. Exactly what your FIAT dealer said is what I suspect mine will say. I admit I have been stupidly putting it off in the hope it will fix itself.
The key will be when I get the new plugs taken out and to see what they look like. I have done about 150 miles now since they were changed.
I suspect I will be without a car for a while, the i10 is there as a backup so it is not a major problem. I can use the tram as well for some jobs.
Last edited by: RattleandSmoke on Mon 17 Feb 14 at 18:06
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>> I admit I have been stupidly putting it off in the hope it will fix itself.<<
Reality check Rattle...this is the real world and that doesn't happen.
What does happen is further damage may well be caused, while you continue to ignore the problem and hope an Hallelujah moment will come along.
Get a grip and deal with the problem.
Pat
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I wouldnt bother paying to test the coils these are very cheap get a new one(s) remove the doubt.
If you pay to test anything its the ECU but then a rebuilt one was only a little north of £100 and how much would testing be?
We started by changing the plugs (cheapest) £12.50 for 4x NGK, this lasted for a week, so then one new plug and coil finger total about £16, fine for 3 weeks, then after research it was ECU time.
Problem went away for good. Far short of the 4 figure sum FIAT said was needed, (ECU £350, Lambda £200, Throttle body £500, coils £150, MAP £140 etc)
My son drives it like he stole it all the time and the only thing he could have done differently would have been to drive it like an OAP with a hat on.
As always
Mark
Last edited by: Mark on Mon 17 Feb 14 at 18:19
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Question for Rattle - how does that replacement plug look? Taken it out yet?
As for:
>> My dealer tried to charge me £400 for a tyre
Really! My car on 18" low profile tyres are about £165 each. Your is a Panda.
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I said tyre, oil change and brake pads :).
They wanted £80 for a tyre, a cheap no name brand. The branded stuff is only £45 on my car and there was nothing wrong with the tyre, it just had less than 4mm tread on it.
I will get it looked at this week, I suppose the best place to start is to check the plugs and to check it is firing properly. I don't think it is miss firing myself as most the time it works perfectly but when it goes wrong it feels like somebody is applying the brakes for a couple of seconds and the light comes on, I assume this is the limp mode although it seems to do it for a second before the light comes on, suggesting it could be fuel it is being starved off. Annoying I didn't have my scanner plugged it when it happened as it will drain the battery if left in all the time and I don't want to keep plugging it in and out.
The coils are about £45 each (there are two of them) so unless one of the new plugs are fouled I won't know which one it is. I do know that coil pack failure is very common on the Panda but still need to do further research to confirm that it has been miss firing. I was hoping that by continuing to drive it the fault would become more clear but it is just the same as it was a few weeks ago.
Last edited by: RattleandSmoke on Mon 17 Feb 14 at 20:51
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£45 each?
Oh no they are not! Less than £20 each here.
www.shop4parts.co.uk/?name=store&op=Results&category=22&secondary=53&opts=1174
Genuine Fiat parts too!
As always
Mark
Last edited by: Mark on Mon 17 Feb 14 at 21:47
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>> Some people just don't enjoy cars, I love cars but hate driving if that can possibly make any sense?
Listen Sheikha, I was a car freak from age 8 and knew a lot about them long before I was allowed to drive. But I couldn't wait to get my hands on some and start flinging them about.
What's your problem with them exactly?
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>> I simply don't trust any main dealer and that is why I am reluctant to
>> go any where near there.
If your PC customers had the same attitude as you, then the work would soon dry up.
Just do what the rest of us would do - take it to the dealer and be done with it.
I'm all for saving money, but not when it costs me loads of time doing so.
All this faffing about, you could have had it sorted by now.
Last edited by: VxFan on Mon 17 Feb 14 at 21:31
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I've said I risked getting an OBD II reader to see if it read a fault code - always on one at that - and it did. But I was also curious to see what could be read from my car as well.
But my time is money. And I'd just want this sorted if I was in the same position as Rattle. The fault we had was on my wife's car which is rarely used. If I'd opted out of the company car scheme I'd want/need it sorting ASAP. I have been lucky to work from home a lot of late but next week I could start a project almost anywhere for a few months. Nature of the business.
And as many have said in this thread, continued driving could be causing damage which might be costly to repair. What if you're wrecking the catalyst for example. Get it sorted for your own sake.
I fear you're going for a bodged fix... a bit like some of your kitchen ;-) I mentioned the old units were rotting and that might mean a source of water/damp and have you looked into that as well? Things don't rot because they are old. The Ghia Karmann didn't rot because of age did it - it was rust caused by water/damp/etc and un-galvanised steel. They survived quite well in warmer climates.
Last edited by: rtj70 on Mon 17 Feb 14 at 22:16
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The amount of times I have seen customers throwing hundreds of pounds worth of parts at a car without curing the problem, because they can't afford proper diagnoses...
Rattle, bite the bullet, take it to someone who REALLY knows Fiats, be it a main dealer or a DECENT specialist.
Look at Fiat forums, get advise to where to take it, but DO IT!
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As Swiss Tony says, there are lots of sources online for recommended garages. I've just found this one in 2 minutes with Google
MVC (Alfa and Fiat specialists)
19-21 Britannia Road
Sale
Manchester
M33 2AA
0161-969-0400
Excellent reviews on several Alfa forums. For example:
www.alfaowner.com/Forum/alfa-147-156-and-gt/277510-can-anyone-recomend-mvc-garage-in-sale-manchester.html
Just give them a call and have a chat. You'll probably find the cost is nowhere near as drastic as you've built up in your mind that it's going to be. And you get a working car back that you don't need to keep stressing over.
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Thanks for that, not exactly sure where Britannia Road is, I will check on the map but Sale itself is just round the corner from me :).
I suppose I need to start by asking how much their diagnostic is what their procedure is. I don't mind paying good money for a proper diagnostic, my biggest fear is paying good money for constant incorrect diagnostics.
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A specialist in a marque (i.e. not a main dealer) will often know what the likely problem is even when it's intermittent and leaves no useful codes behind.
I and a very skilled (but generalist) mechanic faffed around with my Mazda for ages before I found an MX5 specialist who said it would be the coil pack causing a very occasional but inconvenient cutting out, and it was. There was really no logic to it - there are two coils, and failure of one only affects two cylinders, but mine wouldn't even cough when it stopped.
The guy who fixed it couldn't reproduce the fault or even explain the symptoms himself, but he knew what would cure it.
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>> I suppose I need to start by asking how much their diagnostic is what their
>> procedure is. I don't mind paying good money for a proper diagnostic, my biggest fear
>> is paying good money for constant incorrect diagnostics.
Based on the feedback they shouldn't rip you off. There are a few mentions specifically that they don't charge for unnecessary work and often chuck in small items free of charge.
BTW, it is my understanding that the diagnostic protocols, fault codes and the tools to extract them are common to Fiat and Alfa vehicles, so it should be in good hands.
If they are as friendly and service oriented as the forums say, I wouldn't have thought they'd object to a chat over the phone in the first instance.
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>> is constant incorrect diagnostics.
Just carry on doing it yourself then.
Last edited by: Zero on Tue 18 Feb 14 at 11:15
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Time for a new thread:
Car still not running right - Part 2
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"Thanks for that, not exactly sure where Britannia Road is"
It's opposite Sale Tram Station behind the Kings Ransom Pub.
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>>It's opposite Sale Tram Station behind the Kings Ransom Pub.
More generally, it's just next to the Bridgewater, on the east side, about a mile along the A56 the right (wrong for you!) side of the M60.
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I checked on the map earlier, I know where it is now, or at least I know how to get to it :). Only about 3 miles away.
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>>about 3 miles away
Best take sandwiches and a flask if you're going all that way. Get a good night's sleep the night before and stop for a break halfway. Perhaps check in to a Travelodge. Driving tired costs lives you know...
;-)
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>> he could take the tram?
It would never fit in his Panda, and it would also make it slower with the extra weight.
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I could get the tram back, but the total distance would involve changing at Cornbrook, it is far quicker to get off at the Old Trafford stop and then have a 20 minute not so nice walk or if it is day light get off at the next stop (Stretford) and have an enjoyable walk through the park.
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>I could get the tram back,..
Ask them nicely and they'll probably run you back home in the Panda to check it out.
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>> I checked on the map earlier, I know where it is now, or at least
>> I know how to get to it :). Only about 3 miles away.
>>
>>
It's no good just checking on the map, Rattle. Pick up the phone and book the thing in. I'm no expert, but to me you're looking at the car like it's a PC's operating system and faffing about looking for obscure software faults. A good mechanic who specialises in the marque will quite likely have seen the problem before and if he doesn't know exactly where to look he'll have a damn good idea where to start.
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>>It's no good just checking on the map, Rattle. Pick up the phone and book the thing in <<
I cant help but think that these long agonising threads where many suggestions and little action takes place are due to the lack of a good woman who would have long since booked it in herself such was the danger of yet another evening hearing the theories on what might be wrong.
Are we taking bets on how many days/weeks it is before the car is fixed, if ever?
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>> lack of a good woman <<
There's a man who knows his place:)
Pat
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>>There's a man who knows his place <<
I know that having a good woman in your life gives you far more to worry about than your car :-)
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>> Are we taking bets on how many days/weeks it is before the car is fixed, if ever?
With a bit of luck the Sheikh will take it to CGN's Fiat and Alfa indy specialist, only three miles away, which will sort his jalopy without robbing him.
I do feel a decision is looming. Could be wrong of course. I often am.
Then of course Ratto will start to stifle and gum it up again, unless he learns to enjoy driving, or anyway to drive, in the meantime. Greek tragedy with meerkats.
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And if it were fixed that could lead to the demise of this thread which is only just getting started :)
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>> And if it were fixed that could lead to the demise of this thread which is only just getting started :)
>>
I think there is still the post mortem :- If you had done xyz or abc the cost would have been ?
plus maybe
For sale:- One hardly used plug, HT lead etc.:-)
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Ok if everyone who has contributed to this thread sends you £1 will you collect it all and use it to get a dealer diagnosis?
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>>Ok if everyone who has contributed to this thread sends you £1 will you collect it all and use it to get a dealer diagnosis?
Everyone should email Rats this picture to print out - let's see how far that gets him with a dealer.
www.rampantscotland.com/SCM/rbs1.jpg
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The issue is not about money, it is about not being wanted to get ripped off, they tried to rip me off before and I only ever let people rip me off once. I would never ever take money of people on here.
I simply don't trust the main dealers and the post by Mark explain exactly why.
Last edited by: RattleandSmoke on Tue 18 Feb 14 at 21:58
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>> The issue is not about money, it is about not being wanted to get ripped
>> off, they tried to rip me off before and I only ever let people rip
>> me off once. I would never ever take money of people on here.
>>
>> I simply don't trust the main dealers and the post by Mark explain exactly why.
rats, you really shouldn't be allowed to have a car. You are really not suited or equipped for any aspect of the whole car ownership or driving thing.
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>>You are really not suited or equipped for any aspect ...
I once took a barely one week old Mondeo 1.8 TD to a Ford dealer to complain that it was down on power and that I'd driven it from Edinburgh to Northampton that day without being able to get it above 50mph.
I told them that I suspected the turbo was faulty and what were they jolly well going to do about that then ?
The service receptionist offered to come out and drive the car to experience the problem.
After he adjusted the seat to his liking ( and pulled the mat out from under the accelerator pedal ) it ran just fine...
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>> >>You are really not suited or equipped for any aspect ...
>>
>> I once took a barely one week old Mondeo 1.8 TD to a Ford dealer
>> to complain that it was down on power and that I'd driven it from Edinburgh
>> to Northampton that day without being able to get it above 50mph.
>>
>> I told them that I suspected the turbo was faulty and what were they jolly
>> well going to do about that then ?
>>
>> The service receptionist offered to come out and drive the car to experience the problem.
>>
>> After he adjusted the seat to his liking ( and pulled the mat out from
>> under the accelerator pedal ) it ran just fine...
yeah, but to be fair, in a 1.8 TD there was a gnats whisker between running fine and running like a dog.....
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Hey it was alright that car. Coming down off Shap anyway. Going up was a bit more of a challenge but down hills it was a bobby dazzler.
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I think it might be a good idea if this thread is closed. I will take the car to that Alfa place in Sale and I will post a new thread about how I get on. I think this current thread is just going round in circles. I have made clear 50 times now why I want to avoid my main dealer.
I would also like to thank all those who have offered advice :).
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>>I have made clear 50 times now why I want to avoid my main dealer.<<
So go to a different dealer, perhaps one 100 miles away so the car actually does some work. You could have had the car fixed by now, the only reason it isnt fixed is you, the only thing I cant decide on is whether you live to theorise about car faults or if you are laying the groundwork for an epic 'new car' thread. Time will tell!
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>> So go to a different dealer, perhaps one 100 miles away
No! Go to CGN's indy down the road. Just as good, cheaper and less hassle.
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I can of course understand why you don't want to take it to a main dealer, and I hope the chap in Sale, kindly suggested by CGN, will fin what the problem is.
You're probably also irritated by the repeated advice to take the Panda for a good long run. Do tell us why you don't want to do that, and I'm sure we'll shut up!
When you eventually change your car, I would suggest something Japanese or Korean: these will cope with short local trips better than a Fiat. Fiats are designed to be driven the way Italians drive them - con fuoco.
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>> the repeated advice to take the Panda for a good long run. Do tell us why you don't want to do that, and I'm sure we'll shut up!
He told us ages ago Avant: he doesn't like driving (!) and, reading between the lines, is terrified of driving at over 20 or 30 mph.
It didn't make us shut up. It made us expostulate and get hot under the collar and urge poor Ratto to do what he feels he can't do. Like a chorus of gerbils in a very crummy Greek tragedy:
'Brekekekek, co-ax co-ax,
Your a*se in gear, co-ax, co-ax!
Your clog down hard, co-ax, co-ax!
You need some smacks, co-ax, co-ax...'
(Aristophanes, lost act from The Frogs recently found in Damascus)
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Guh... The Frogs is a comedy of course. Same difference gerbil-choruswise...
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>>or if you are laying the groundwork for an epic 'new car' thread. Time will tell!
If it were Stu, then this *would* be the groundwork for such a thread...
Tell me, Stu, what are you driving at the moment?
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>>Tell me, Stu, what are you driving at the moment?<<
Elantra diesel, savings plan in place to replace it with a Magentis or Sonata diesel as and when funds have built up, depends how much of a good year I have workwise really although this year is looking stronger than the last few, January was my best month since early 2011. I have no intention of announcing it in here mind you.
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I will
>> take the car to that Alfa place in Sale and I will post a new
>> thread about how I get on.
So why haven't you booked it in already then, or have you been too busy ?
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>> The issue is not about money, it is about not being wanted to get ripped
>> off, they tried to rip me off before and I only ever let people rip
>> me off once. I would never ever take money of people on here.
>>
>> I simply don't trust the main dealers and the post by Mark explain exactly why.
>>
FFS they did not try and rip you off, they are a main dealer charging main dealer prices for OE parts. They advised you to replace a tyre as the tread was getting low probably unaware that you only do 25 miles a week. Anyway as Stu says there is more than one Fiat dealer in the UK.
Grow Up !!!!!
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Main dealers charge work by fixed amounts of time for a particular job. So say for a tyre change they charge 30 minutes work at £71/hr that's £35 just for doing the work. Then they'll probably charge more for the tyre than you could get it for.
Including fitting, a tyre on the Seicento was replaced at a independent garaga/tyre/MOT place. Think it was about £56 inc VAT.
I've driven company cars since around 1997 (I think) and main dealers are never authorised to replace a tyre by a lease company. They get it done much cheaper by the tyre places.
Last edited by: rtj70 on Wed 19 Feb 14 at 09:55
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I usually have tyres replaced by the main dealer, but at local Manky-Fitt prices, by the simple expedient of just asking them if they want the business or not. (I don't think they just take it to Shonky-Co down the road to do it, as they're miles from anywhere.)
This applies to almost anything they sell, incidentally, from a service to an MOT. Sometimes they play ball and price match, sometimes they don't, but it's always worth an ask in almost any transaction (anywhere really) if there's a deal to be had.
Last edited by: Crankcase on Wed 19 Feb 14 at 10:05
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Yes - I go my last car, a Skoda MOTd for £29.95 at the Skoda dealers simply by pointing out the sign on the tyre dealers price down the road and no there were no faults.
I now have a Golf and the got a quote for the 2 new tyre when I had my car serviced at the main dealer,Robinsons ). They had pointed out that I had less then 4mm left on the front just like Rattle's). Price including fitting etc.was £2.00 per tyre lower than Kwik Fit so will probably be using them when tyres needs replacing.
Similarly they sell a litre of oil cheaper than Halfords and fit bulbs and wiper blades free of charge. Not all main dealers overcharge and similarly not all independents are paragons of virtue and honesty in a dirty set of overalls.
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MB dealers (or at least the one I use) are very reasonable when it comes to tyres. I couldn't beat the first price they quoted from the usual etyres/blackcircles etc sites. I don't know if they actually fit them or just sub it out to a mobile fitter, but it doesn't really matter. And as a bonus the car is cleaned :-)
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The only time my car gets cleaned is when it goes to the dealer.
When I had my first Lexus there was a sticker in the windscreen saying you could take it on any Saturday to any Lexus dealer, and they would clean it, and give you coffee and a pastry, all free.
They seemed to stop doing that for some reason I can't possibly imagine.
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I'd rather a dirty car than a schlep to a dealer, pastry or no!
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>>
>> "I do feel a decision is looming. "
Said Mr Jarndyce.
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Bring your Panda down to me in South Derbyshire, I'll code read it for free!!!
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>> Bring your Panda down to me in South Derbyshire, I'll code read it for free!!!
>>
The only way that car will ever get to South Derbyshire is with the bloke who eventually buys it off Rattle.
Assuming that, after the experience of buying said car, he still possesses the will to live!
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Once sorted take it for a thrash up the M6 to Shap and meet Z. Sticky bun at Tebay then thrash it back home. Should be able to get three figures out of it downhill.
Last edited by: legacylad on Wed 19 Feb 14 at 22:52
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>> Once sorted take it for a thrash up the M6 to Shap and meet Z.
>> Sticky bun at Tebay then thrash it back home. Should be able to get three
>> figures out of it downhill.
>>
Yore 'avin a larf!
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Rattle is unlikely to respond to these posts since he asked for us to stop posting. I can wager his car has not been booked in to the FIAT/Alfa specialist yet. Maybe I should go round his house and clamp his car to stop any further damage? ;-)
Of course he'll have an excuse.
If he'd drive at all I could probably get him a job with a company car thrown in. And split the finder's fee.... but no point going down that route. But it would get him into somewhere that could lead on to better positions.
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>> lead on to better positions.
More contorted and complex ones you mean?
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No I mean better use of talent with renumeration to match. As in more senior positions. Starting salary plus car much better than he's on now but he'd need to drive a lot. And he'd probably find it easier than what he does now - not dealing with viruses single handed and all that.
Probably positions on help desks as a starting point too are available at times. And you can move on from that. More senior positions with a degree anyway (although he's underused his qualification so devalued it).
But what's the point in trying/helping?
Last edited by: rtj70 on Wed 19 Feb 14 at 23:43
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More senior positions ? - would you offer a job based on what you have seen of his abilities to prevaricate and make decisions?
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>> More senior positions ? - would you offer a job based on what you have
>> seen of his abilities to prevaricate and make decisions?
>>
Local government? ;-)
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>> >> More senior positions ? - would you offer a job based on what you
>> have
>> >> seen of his abilities to prevaricate and make decisions?
>> >>
>>
>> Local government? ;-)
>>
>>
Brilliant!
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>> More senior positions ? - would you offer a job based on what you have
>> seen of his abilities to prevaricate and make decisions?
Curiously, one might. He's never worked in the sort of environment where he has worked with others. He'd probably pick it up. You only have to look at how his posting style has developed from barely literate to what it is now over the last five years - as a result of being told on here to get his act in gear.
Get him that job, and he'll be forced to drive. Alternatively, he should get a job like that in London where you don't need to be able to drive to reach your clients.
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>> Rattle is unlikely to respond to these posts since he asked for us to stop
>> posting.
That's not going to stop a good rattling yarn continuing under its own momentum.
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I have asked the moderators to close this thread as it has got off topic and at nearly 300 posts is quite embarrassing. I will make a new thread when I know what is wrong with my car.
Thanks again.
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NNNNOOOOOO! The conclusion would round it off nicely. Create a Volume 2 yes , because it takes ages to scroll down.
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Conclusion? CONCLUSION?
You really think there will be a conclusion?
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>>I will make a new thread when I know what is wrong with my car.<<
Another 200 post thread on the finer points of Fiat electrics. Heaven help us all :-)
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>> I will make a new thread when
>> I know what is wrong with my car.
>>
Not wanting to give the game away, but I think from these little dropped hints we can look forward to a sequel later in the year.
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I hear Ridley Scott is interested in making the movie. He's casting Orlando Bloom as Rattle.
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And Danny Trejo as Ted...
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Gee thanks:)
How about Wilfred Bramble as Lud?
Pat
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>> Wilfred Bramble
Brambell is far too young. Someone of mature years please Meryl...
I notice there isn't a competitive scrum to be played by Chief Wiggum... If Orlando Thingy is unavailable, Wiggum's squeaky nipper might do for the Sheikh in some moods.
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>> Gee thanks:)
>>
>> How about Wilfred Bramble as Lud?
Michael Gambon, Shirley?
Ian Richardson, if Gambon turns it down.
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>> Eddie Izzard as Zero...
Ace, my legs are better than his tho.
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I suspect most of us here have better legs than Ian Richardson, 1934-2007.
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I'd have Richard Wilson as AC and Nicholas Lyndhurst as Rattle.
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Keep up, RR - Lyndhurst is 52. How about Nick Frost?
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Margaret Rutherford for Pat !
Ducks for cover !
HO
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I'm wondering who we should have to play vxfan and BBD.
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June Whitfield and Terry Scott.
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I've met VxFan and I don't think he'd be played by June Whitfield :-) Terry Scott maybe. So that makes BBD June Whitfield. I am sure he'll have something to say about her.
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Never heard of Danny Trejo......................must be a looker !
HO
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Almost correct. Try another consonant as in 'badass......ker'
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Which reminds me I still have to watch the final series of Breaking Bad. The best thing I have ever watched on TV, and holding off because I don't want it to end. Does that make sense?
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>> Which reminds me I still have to watch the final series of Breaking Bad.
I only signed up to Netflix to see the last series after getting the rest for free. Netflix was free for 30 days but still have it for now.
EDIT: Are we comparing Rattle with any Breaking Bad characters? Could make the thread even more interesting.
Last edited by: rtj70 on Fri 21 Feb 14 at 01:05
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>> Danny Trejo......................must be a looker !
Pockmarked, lank and greasy haired Mexican-style villain who usually plays that part in for example spaghetti westerns. The star of the wonderfully bloodthirsty movie 'Machete' in which he also gets several winsome chicks... don't watch it if you're feeling delicate, there are two explicit and detailed disembowelling scenes. But it's funny too, if you have a strong stomach.
I'd much rather be played by him than some of these other figures that have been mentioned... Richard Wilson indeed, tchah!
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"Pockmarked, lank and greasy haired Mexican-style villain who usually plays that part in for example spaghetti westerns."
The wonderful Eli Wallach, from The Good, the Bad and the Ugly is still alive. Perhaps he and Clint could do a sequel. Ennio Morricone is still alive and still composing film scores.
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>> The wonderful Eli Wallach
'Why Mr Vacarro, Ah do declayuh!' (flutters eyelashes seductively)
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>> I've met VxFan - Terry Scott maybe.
Nah, I'm more like Robbie Coltrane (without the Scotish accent)
And I'm really only posting this to lay claim to the 300th post in this thread ;)
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Robbie Coltrane used to take his young son to the boys rugby training and matches local to here and you could always hear the other team saying "There's Hagrid" watching us
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I also heard that he took his son to one of the Harry Potter films, in the middle of which the son said loudly 'You're doing quite well, Daddy'.
I'm now imagining VxFan saying in his best Hagrid voice 'Back to motoring again'. Dave - I think you're more tolerant of thread drift nowadays, as am I on HJ.
Last edited by: Avant on Sat 22 Feb 14 at 23:48
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>> I'm now imagining VxFan saying in his best Hagrid voice 'Back to motoring again'. Dave
>> - I think you're more tolerant of thread drift nowadays, as am I on HJ.
>>
Given the origins of this thread, a little bit of drift may be understandable.
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Rattle has solved his problems - obviously too busy running around like a baseball capped teenager to admit to taking all our advice!. He posted this about 19.00 on Tuesday
see post no. 4 www.fiatforum.com/panda/344216-dealer-1900-diy-5-99-a.html
Last edited by: sherlock47 on Tue 25 Feb 14 at 20:09
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An Italian tune up worked. All is well, until next time... ;-)
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"The last week I have been driving like an Italian"
Praise be! He's found reverse!
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Driving a Panda with the City driving option on means the steering is terribly light. I am surprised he's left that on to be honest. Driving at speed with this on is not a good idea. I know because I had one as a hire car a few years ago and it was on. Couldn't look to turn it off until I'd got off the autostrada.
The steering is light anyway when it's off - so I don't see the point myself.
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>> Driving a Panda with the City driving option on means the steering is terribly light.
>> I am surprised he's left that on to be honest. Driving at speed with this
>> on is not a good idea. I know because I had one as a hire
>> car a few years ago and it was on. Couldn't look to turn it off
>> until I'd got off the autostrada.
>>
>> The steering is light anyway when it's off - so I don't see the point
>> myself.
>>
I don't think he was referring to the steering, just that he realised that it was constant city driving may have caused the problem.
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The reason I have not posted on here is I don't want to tempt fate, all I know is I have done 130 miles without a single issue, it does feel a lot smoother than it before as well. However it is still early days. I only replied to that thread because the symptoms were similar to my own. At the moment it is running well but second I have so much hint of hesitation it is getting booked into that Alfa place in Sale. The service is due in April so I will book it in there for the service.
I never use the city function apart from if I have to make a tight reverse park it does make things a little easier.
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Sounds good Rats - remember these engines can run at 5000+rpm all day without dying.
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>> The reason I have not posted on here is I don't want to tempt fate,
Glad to see you back, was beginning to think that you may have flounced after some of the well meant stick you have been given!
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If threads were cycle races Rattle's would be the Tour de France.
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I wonder what hire car I will get tomorrow at Malaga Airport. If it's a FIAT I'll be sure to remember to turn off the city mode before I set out :-) I'm meant to get something Corsa/Fiesta size so wouldn't be surprised if it's a SEAT Ibiza. As long as it's recently purchased but should be okay with Hertz (fingers crossed).
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You lucky sod :).
It is not fair that you should get all that sun, so it is only right that you are given a nice SEAT Marbella :).
Funnily enough when I was in Spain last year I saw lots of old Fiestas and Escorts you don't see over here (e.g early 80's examples) but saw hardly any SEAT Marbellas. I need see quite a few over SEAT FIAT clones though.
Have you ever rented a Panda Actual over there? They don't exist in the UK but apparently in mainland Europe they do, they have no radio, central locking or electric windows.
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It's not luck - a lot on here manage to get away Jan/Feb for a break. And it's about £90 each return flight from Manchester - you should try it sometime :-)
I had a thread about hire cars - some local companies seemed to have 'VW Golf' or comparable for £16/week.... hmmm something not right. But via an offer with Hertz I got a car for £77 for a week! Probably a Marbella (FIAT Panda) :-)
I had a Panda in Italy in 2011. It had a radio, central locking and electric windows. I was meant to get a 500 or equivalent. Panda was fine.
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Probably active spec then. Is there weather usually quite down there at this time of year?
I do need a break as I have not had a day off since after Christmas thought about spending a couple of nights in Germany but then not been to London for a while so I might just go down there. Hoping to spend a couple of weeks this year in Europe and intend to pass through most of the West and Southern European countries. Might get some driving lessons in Italy :p.
I have intended to go Spain in late April via Ferris but I will boot it last minute to ensure I get the good weather (it can be anything from 15c and showers to 35c at that time of year).
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No idea how it'll be - won't be so warm where we will be north east of Malaga (near Iznajar). Similar time last year we did Portugal with Ryanair for similar prices. Weather a bit windy but warm enough and better than the UK.
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We got a Panda, or rather a Seat Malaga ? in 96 on Paxos. Greek Island Holidays met us at the boat with the car and a rep with a pickup for the cases.
No such luck coming home. 4 adults plus luggage wouldn't go in . We drove down to the boat with the sunroof partly open and cases held on the roof ! Only a couple of miles, luckily,
HO
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The Malaga was a FIAT Fiat Regata clone, the Panda was the Marbella. The problem is FIAT introduced the over had cam FIRE engine to the Panda, rear coil springs and a galvanised body in 1986, but because SEAT had already fallen out with FIAT they could not use the upgrades. The Marbella made do with push rod engines, leaf springs and bodywork made of rust until the very end.
That said I don't suppose the rust was a major issue in the Spanish climate.
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>> The Malaga was a FIAT Fiat Regata clone, the Panda was the Marbella.
Oh I'm getting a limo then :-)
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>> Glad to see you back, was beginning to think that you may have flounced after some of the well meant stick you have been given!
The Sheikh is very steady under fire. Quite severe teasing is shrugged off or ignored. I don't think he's the flouncing type.
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Yes Rattle isn't the sort to flounce and he hasn't.
My hire car in the end was a brand new Corsa with 3 miles on the clock. Totally underpowered 1.2l car that struggle on ant incline. Some more than others... Very steep it does not cope with ;-)
Last edited by: rtj70 on Fri 28 Feb 14 at 17:47
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The Clio I passed my test in was like that, it was a new MK3 with a 1.2 litre engine but the car was so heavy being a 5 star rated NCAP vehicle.
I had also driven the Clio MK2B which had the same engine and it was a lot more nippy. Also car engines need to break in. My Panda was very slow when new and took a good 1000 miles or so it loosen up. With bigger engined cars the effect probably isn't noticeable.
Last edited by: RattleandSmoke on Fri 28 Feb 14 at 18:09
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>> Totally underpowered 1.2l car
Had one as a courtesy car last year. You just have to get the revs up.
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>> >> Totally underpowered 1.2l car
>>
>> Had one as a courtesy car last year. You just have to get the revs
>> up.
You'll need to explain that concept to rattle.
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>> underpowered 1.2l car
>>
>> Had one as a courtesy car last year. You just have to get the revs
>> up.
Yes. We hired a Punto in Spain, perfectly all right if you didn't expect it to climb one in ten slopes in top. You had to keep the revs up. It didn't seem to mind and it still wasn't thirsty. What's more you could get it up to 100 more or less and it would hold it on the flat. A bit slower than a good Skoda Estelle, but not much.
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One hill had me in third! Losing speed and revs in fourth dropping otherwise. Might have loosened up in the 600km driven so far.
Last edited by: rtj70 on Sun 2 Mar 14 at 19:19
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>> One hill had me in third!
>>
DON'T read the following text Ratts, I would not like to put you into shock. :-)
You should try the mountains of Tenerife in a 1.2 Sandero, more than adequate if you rev it to within an inch (2.54cm) of its life. The skill is seeing how close you can maintain the revs to the rev limiter without hitting it, sometimes in first or second.
Last edited by: Uncle Albert on Sun 2 Mar 14 at 19:44
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Funny enough I'm on the island of La Gomera at the moment, just a short hop on the ferry from Tenerife. Only 18 miles or so across but you have to drive across the top and it takes around an hour and a half to get from one side to the other. Longest straight is around 200 yards so never get out of third gear. Wish I had something other that a Corsa. Why is it that whatever you request for a hire car you always get a Corsa?
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Enjoy La Gomera. We were there last Monday, on a coach trip to enable us to get a feel for the place and decide whether we might want to come for a longer stay. We absolutely loved it, despite the restrictions of being members of a coach party. Amazingly green even on the San Sebastian side, and then all that unbelievably lush forest inland.
While on Tenerife we had a Ford Fiesta - so not everyone gets a Corsa!
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Yep, I love the place. Stayed for a couple of weeks two years ago in. San Sebastián and decided to come back. Am staying in Val Gran Rey. Not the place if you want 24 hour clubs and bars but if you like winter sunshine, a nice selection of restaurants,twisty roads and a smattering of hippies left over from the sixties it's great.
Driving not without its hazards - scroll down to second article
lagomera1.blogspot.com.es
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>> Yep, I love the place. Stayed for a couple of weeks two years ago in.
>> San Sebastián and decided to come back. Am staying in Val Gran Rey. Not the
>> place if you want 24 hour clubs and bars but if you like winter sunshine,
>> a nice selection of restaurants,twisty roads and a smattering of hippies left over from the
>> sixties it's great.
>>
>> Driving not without its hazards - scroll down to second article
>>
>>
>> lagomera1.blogspot.com.es
Looking at the third article down, I see a german jumped from an Aida cruise ship. That huge block of flats shadowed us around as we cruised the islands, and was know by all of us on board as "The Bismark"
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Re rtj70. What's wrong with hitting it? My 2.0 Civic regularly hit 6800, then faded gently sputtering:) Not the slightest bother in 60k. Type R would go much higher. And the S2000 to even barmier levels, for a car. Always will regret being a wimp and playing safe!
Last edited by: NIL on Sun 2 Mar 14 at 20:09
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You don't want to hit it, the power drops off, as the old sea dog said, the trick is to keep it as close to the spluttering level as possible (without spluttering)
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>>What's wrong with hitting it?
It suggests a lack of skill on the driver's part.
My Civic VTi hit peak power at 7600rpm, redlined at 8100 and the limiter would kick in at ~8300rpm.
I hit it about 3 times in 70k miles of ungentle driving.
Hitting the limiter makes you go slower than not hitting it.
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A limiter's useful for full throttle up-changes, stops you blowing the engine.
It needs practice to dip the clutch just before hitting the limiter and changing up whilst holding the throttle to the floor.
It must shave a couple of hundredths off a nought to sixty time!
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>> A limiter's useful for full throttle up-changes, stops you blowing the engine.
You don't want to be doing those in your own car except to save your life. If properly done they are a bit quicker than something more kind to the machinery, but only a bit.
Competition stuff only.
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>> Why use the clutch?
If you're referring to full throttle up-changes, it's because the load on the gears mean they're likely to baulk if you don't. The flywheel effect of the engine at full throttle and revs gives a little extra acceleration as the clutch is dropped in the higher gear (or should that be lower ratio?).
I used to do it often in the old diesel Focus. Diesels don't suddenly cut like petrol, just reach their limit.
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Peak output on the Civic Type S was 6500. Red line 6800. Limiter 6800 I think. Not a lot of headroom, but in any case, it matters not as it does no harm, and you go no slower. Next gear is engaged about 5300 which is at the torque peak.
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Car still not running right :( - bathtub tom
