| Motoring Discussion > Police officer compensation | Miscellaneous |
| Thread Author: BobbyG | Replies: 76 |
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New Wed 5 Feb 14 15:30
Police officer compensation - BobbyG
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I'm sure we all remember this incident at the time, am sure there was a thread on it at one point! www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2552186/Policeman-given-430-000-payout-humiliation-suffered-video-using-truncheon-smash-pensioners-window-went-viral-online.html Well the copper who smashed in the pensioners window received £430k payout!! Should have been sacked instead and ordered to pay compensation! |
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New Wed 5 Feb 14 16:15
Police officer compensation - Manatee
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Oh no... just when I thought I had shaken off Victor Meldrew syndrome :( I don't believe it! What were they thinking about? How can it be a better deal to be a useless policeman than a good one? Hints of the "Local Authority" excuse there - "it's in the public interest to reach a settlement to avoid expensive litigation". |
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New Wed 5 Feb 14 16:16
Police officer compensation - Alanovich
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| Mail article. There go the misinformation and misdirection klaxons. |
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New Wed 5 Feb 14 16:41
Police officer compensation - Mapmaker
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>> Mail article. There go the misinformation and misdirection klaxons. The Mail at least has some facts. Your post is pure supposition and entirely unsubstantiated. Or if not, then what is the true story? |
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New Wed 5 Feb 14 16:58
Police officer compensation - Fenlander
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The tribunal ruled on this case in favour of the ex-PC almost 10mths ago but it has taken until recently for the sum to be declared. Here is another take on it from a legal site just after the tribunal last March... dalstonlawyers.wordpress.com/2013/03/04/police-man-who-smashed-window-of-an-elderly-driver-has-been-ruled-to-have-been-dismissed-unfairly/ Mail is basically correct in their report. Shame it's cost the taxpayer so much to pay him off but at least this unstable guy is out of the force where he obviously presented a danger to the public. Just don't risk saying you dislike the wooden reindeers he's flogging now. Last edited by: Fenlander on Wed 5 Feb 14 at 17:00
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New Wed 5 Feb 14 17:06
Police officer compensation - Mapmaker
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>>Shame it's cost the taxpayer so much to pay him off Quite crazy. He should have: 1. Been tried in the criminal courts. 2. Been summarily dismissed for gross misconduct. 3. Been declared insane, signed off work, and then his employment terminated. Instead of which we were very nice to him, kept him in a job, and this is where it led. |
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New Wed 5 Feb 14 17:07
Police officer compensation - Manatee
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>> Shame it's cost the taxpayer so much to pay him off but at least this >> unstable guy is out of the force where he obviously presented a danger to the >> public. There's still one left unless he went earlier. It was his colleague who was standing on the bonnet hitting the windscreen! |
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New Wed 5 Feb 14 17:21
Police officer compensation - Bromptonaut
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>> The Mail at least has some facts. Your post is pure supposition and entirely unsubstantiated. >> Or if not, then what is the true story? Unsubstantiated, unsubstaniated!!!! The Mail has form over the best part of a century for slanting stories to its own agenda and not infrequently providing misinformation to the point of telling outright lies. Sure there are some facts there but nothing like the whole story. Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Wed 5 Feb 14 at 17:21
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New Wed 5 Feb 14 18:34
Police officer compensation - Westpig
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>> Well the copper who smashed in the pensioners window received £430k payout!! >> >> Should have been sacked instead and ordered to pay compensation! >> This was skewed reporting when it was first reported and it continues to be. Why the constant reference to a pensioner?...Presumably because it encourages sympathy for the recipient.... and tries to make the police action(s) look foolish. If the 'pensioner' was a long time known crook, who constantly committed offences and had a habit of failing to stop for police..would that change your opinion of the 'victim'....probably, but how would you know if the article didn't include that bit? Can pensioners be crooks..and use cars..and fail to stop...and be pursued..of course they can. There will be a yarn there, for sure...and it absolutely will not be the officer fancying smashing in the window of a pensioner's Range Rover for the hell of it. Furthermore, it is quite common for pursuits to finish up with windows being smashed in, it's a known distraction technique, whilst others are trying to break in and disable the vehicle. Where this one has gone wrong: -the PC has gone over the top by jumping on the bonnet and -used a technique for a high speed pursuit during low speed pursuit and it's heavy handed, they should have boxed him in and if he still refused put his driver's window in. Matey boy has milked it for all he can get..and the Press have helped him. As for the compensation pay out for the PC...that's plain ridiculous. Trouble is, the civil court system has allowed it. |
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New Wed 5 Feb 14 19:09
Police officer compensation - SteelSpark
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>> Why the constant reference to a pensioner?...Presumably because it encourages sympathy for the recipient.... and >> tries to make the police action(s) look foolish. Yes, convenient shorthand for the dumb masses. A guy a couple of doors down from me is in his early 70s, and has also had a stroke, but he's a big lad, and you really wouldn't want to pee him off. Yes, you'd probably get the better of him, but he could also probably do you a bit of damage if he got the chance. More importantly, he can run you over with his car, as easily as he could when he was 25. Of course, the day after you retire, you suddenly become skin and bone, can be blown over by the slightest breeze, and can only drive at 2 mph. >> As for the compensation pay out for the PC...that's plain ridiculous. Trouble is, the civil >> court system has allowed it. I'm not sure it is. He probably made some mis-judgements in that case, but if he was really taken off front-line duty permanently, then that sounds a pretty strong case of constructive dismissal. Would he have earned an extra, inflation (and interest) adjusted, £430k in the police (including pension), compared to what he will earn now? If so, then that would be the correct payout. Last edited by: SteelSpark on Wed 5 Feb 14 at 19:12
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New Wed 5 Feb 14 19:16
Police officer compensation - R.P.
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There was a very good interview with the ex-Officer on the BBC Wales Today programme tonight. |
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New Wed 5 Feb 14 19:38
Police officer compensation - Fenlander
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>>>There was a very good interview with the ex-Officer on the BBC Wales Today programme tonight. And what came out of that? |
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New Wed 5 Feb 14 19:42
Police officer compensation - R.P.
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A non-Daily Mail perspective. It's not popped up on iPlayer but it will be here:- www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b03t6xms/BBC_Wales_Today_05_02_2014/ About half way in. |
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New Wed 5 Feb 14 20:32
Police officer compensation - Westpig
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>> >> As for the compensation pay out for the PC...that's plain ridiculous. Trouble is, the >> civil >> >> court system has allowed it. >> >> I'm not sure it is. >> >> He probably made some mis-judgements in that case, but if he was really taken off >> front-line duty permanently, then that sounds a pretty strong case of constructive dismissal. It's a sad day indeed if the Old Bill have to kowtow to that one. If he was PC Officious and was deemed over the top (which I think he was) then being moved elsewhere, where he can be more closely supervised and there's a loss of kudos is all part of a management tool to rein people in that need it. If he resigned through embarrassment or pique, that's his look out. The court obviously saw differently. What I would say though, to keep an open mind, is that senior managers blow with the wind and if there's bad press will do almost anything to change it into good press...so many have fallen without the proper managerial support. My gut isntinct in this is a bit of both, leaning towards the PC being overly officious and unpopular..however the RR driver DID need to be dealt with robustly..just not standing on his bonnet. |
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New Wed 5 Feb 14 21:03
Police officer compensation - MD
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| Far from being a Professional (in your trade WP) my MO would be to take out at least two tyres so that the perp' could not get too far and then offer him the chance to get out and address the situation. If he then did not yield then my approach would be more robust. Is this way off the mark? |
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New Wed 5 Feb 14 22:15
Police officer compensation - Westpig
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>> Far from being a Professional (in your trade WP) my MO would be to take >> out at least two tyres so that the perp' could not get too far and >> then offer him the chance to get out and address the situation. If he then >> did not yield then my approach would be more robust. Is this way off the >> mark? Not way off the mark at all...just difficult to achieve. Only Traffic officers are equipped with and trained to use Stinger..and there's fewer and fewer of them nowadays. Even if there were enough available...one of them has to get in front or be in front of the pursued vehicle and guess correctly which route it will take. Then you have to choose a spot that's safe enough and appropriate i.e. not too wide whereby the pursued can drive around it. It can be done, but it's not that easy and is dangerous for the person throwing it, as they are up for being run over. |
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New Wed 5 Feb 14 22:21
Police officer compensation - Westpig
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There is a thing called TPAC (Tactical Pursuit And Containment) which is where you have 4 police cars box the bandit in..and gradually slow down to a stop. Trouble is: A, when are you ever going to get 4 traffic cars all together at the same time in this day and age B, it trashes 4 of your vehicle fleet in one hit. It all boils down to money again. IMO pursuits could easily be greatly lessened if you had a decent number of traffic officers AND they had the right kit i.e. vehicles with enough performance to keep up safely with a miscreant..but could then back off it it got too dangerous, safe in the knowledge they could catch up again if needed... ...if you're issued with a bog standard diesel model, that you're already thrapping the backside off just to keep in touch, there's less inclination to back off when you ought, as per your training. Last edited by: Westpig on Wed 5 Feb 14 at 22:21
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New Sun 9 Feb 14 21:42
Police officer compensation - MD
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| I actually meant when the perp was at a stop just puncture one or two tyres then wait for him to yield. Costly yes, but not as costly as what happened there. Unbelievable in my eyes. |
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New Wed 5 Feb 14 22:43
Police officer compensation - Manatee
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>> Would he have earned an extra, inflation (and interest) adjusted, £430k in the police (including >> pension), compared to what he will earn now? >> >> If so, then that would be the correct payout. Not really, because he can mitigate the loss by working at something else, as he is doing. Had he been rendered unable to work I would agree with you. |
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New Wed 5 Feb 14 22:46
Police officer compensation - Westpig
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>> >> >> Would he have earned an extra, inflation (and interest) adjusted, £430k in the police >> (including >> >> pension), compared to what he will earn now? >> >> >> >> If so, then that would be the correct payout. >> >> Not really, because he can mitigate the loss by working at something else, as he >> is doing. >> >> Had he been rendered unable to work I would agree with you. >> As I understand it, he left of his own accord..because he didn't like being removed from Traffic and being returned to normal duties. Constructive dismissal, because he didn't like being managed. That's a different kettle of fish to being sacked..and will somewhat hamper the close management of others in the future. |
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New Wed 5 Feb 14 23:16
Police officer compensation - Bromptonaut
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>> As I understand it, he left of his own accord..because he didn't like being removed >> from Traffic and being returned to normal duties. >> >> Constructive dismissal, because he didn't like being managed. >> >> That's a different kettle of fish to being sacked..and will somewhat hamper the close management >> of others in the future. Nahh he was potentially trouble. There are effective ways of dealing with that. Management cocked up and failed to do their job. |
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New Sun 9 Feb 14 21:43
Police officer compensation - MD
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| He was a wrong un from the start I'll wager. |
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New Thu 6 Feb 14 10:53
Police officer compensation - henry k
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>>As I understand it, he left of his own accord..because he didn't like being removed from Traffic and being returned to normal duties. >> Constructive dismissal, because he didn't like being managed. >> >> That's a different kettle of fish to being sacked..and will somewhat hamper the close management of others in the future. Just listened to him being interviewed on the radio for 30 mins or so. He seemed to me to be a decent sort of guy and from what he said he has not been treated well. Many many aspects that the press have of course not reported. Senior police seemed to be well out of order in many aspects. OAP said that he was afraid he was going to be killed. OAP committed several driving offences between stops. There was tint film on the RR side window hence so much effort to get to car keys. Senior officer wrote apologising to OAP and papers. They chose to comment while possible criminal case was being explored. I know it was only one side of the story but the whole saga raised a lot of questions about how he was treated. IMO he deserved more compensation. His £400K+ is taxed so that does not buy much pension. |
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New Thu 6 Feb 14 11:57
Police officer compensation - Mapmaker
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>>His £400K is taxed so that does not buy much pension. He can put 200k into a pension and get the tax back on it. 30k should be tax free redundancy money. And then he'll have to pay about £70k of tax and NI on the remainder (and a further 47% on anything over 400k). And he can spend the rest, in a form of QE. |
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New Wed 5 Feb 14 20:18
Police officer compensation - Fursty Ferret
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I'm with Westpig on this. Error of judgement, certainly, but dismissal without pension? Not really appropriate which is what the Court found. |
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New Wed 5 Feb 14 20:30
Police officer compensation - MD
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| Copper over the top with the window smashing. They should have boxed the 'Pensioner' in as they did me when they issued that section 59. (Which they came to regret). 'Some' Plod have lost their way. |
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New Wed 5 Feb 14 20:59
Police officer compensation - Fenlander
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Thanks for the link RP... didn't add much for me though. What is amusing is this full length video of the "chase" where the Range Rover driver (Whatley) is shown to keep to very sensible speds, slow for other cars and walkers, often indicate for turns and slow down as low as 11mph for safety on blind bends. Well into that "chase" the officer must have known from a check on the reg plate that they knew who the guy was and he was carefully driving home. www.youtube.com/watch?v=E6DRNeTgFsM Of course Whatley was a fool for continuing but he did not deserve that level of violence or damage. And it seems the force must have agreed as they paid Whatley some £67,000 compensation and costs for the way he was finally stopped. Seemingly the officer's colleagues agreed too as part of his evidence for the constructive dismissal case was that they showed no support but ribbed him daily over the incident. Apparently unkind things were scrawled on his locker... how shocking! Whatley was not whiter than white in this incident and he was certainly known to the force locally for an incident 5yrs previous where he only escaped some minor motoring offences as the officer who stopped him that time was by chance found to be a thief in an unrelated incident so they though his account could not be trusted in court. But for me the upshot is that the baton wielding officer did, as WP says, make a major error of judgement which cost the force dear in terms of compensation and reputation. Yet he seemed to think he should not suffer as a result of it. Last edited by: Fenlander on Wed 5 Feb 14 at 21:02
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New Wed 5 Feb 14 22:25
Police officer compensation - Bromptonaut
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I find myself broadly in agreement with Westpig. The coppers on scene MAY, with hindsight, have overreacted. Managers failed to deal with that properly leading to a constructive dismissal. End of. The headline sum is the cost of officer's lost benefits. If they're paid as a lump sum rather than pension when he gets to appropriate age thenhe may win or lose depending on how long he lives and on how he invests. |
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New Thu 6 Feb 14 10:09
Police officer compensation - Cliff Pope
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>> >> What is amusing is this full length video of the "chase" where the Range Rover >> driver (Whatley) is shown to keep to very sensible speds, slow for other cars and >> walkers, often indicate for turns and slow down as low as 11mph for safety on >> blind bends. Well into that "chase" the officer must have known from a check on >> the reg plate that they knew who the guy was and he was carefully driving >> home. I've inadvertantly done that once. Driving moderately late at night, I observed a police car following me. It didn't have it's blue lights on, and it showed no impatience either to close the gap or overtake. At suitable places I drove close to the side, but he still just followed me. After several turnings down narrow lanes on my way home I got tired of being followed and pulled into a farm entrance and stopped. He pulled up and asked why I hadn't stopped earlier. I replied I didn't know he wanted me to. As he did nothing to indicate he wanted anything I assumed he just happened to be going my way. He then breathalysed me (negative, of course) and said he just wanted to chat about Triumph 2000s. We didn't discuss the price of windscreens though, and parted amicably. |
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New Thu 6 Feb 14 10:38
Police officer compensation - Bromptonaut
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Another account here, this time from the Guardian: www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/feb/05/policeman-smashed-pensioner-window-payout David Davies's comment at end seems like a succinct summary. Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Thu 6 Feb 14 at 10:38
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New Thu 6 Feb 14 10:48
Police officer compensation - Westpig
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It's the constructive dismissal bit that I'm having the most problem with. So your colleagues take the rip out of you...so what?..If you're that sensitive why on earth did you join the Old Bill? If you don't like being posted elsewhere to different duties..so what? ..You are in a disciplined service and should be prepared to do as you are told..get your head down, prove your worth..and re-apply for that post in 2 or 3 years time when the dust has settled. If he voluntarily leaves through a fit of pique or annoyance..then he shouldn't get his full pension entitlement..because he didn't work there long enough to gain it. This case will become a poor example for the weak and ineffective to rally against firm management...and believe me there's considerable room for improvement in the firm management stakes..rather than brushing it under the carpet and hoping it goes away..or leaving it for someone else to deal with. |
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New Thu 6 Feb 14 10:57
Police officer compensation - henry k
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I hope the radio interview can be made available. The content might change your view. |
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New Thu 6 Feb 14 11:08
Police officer compensation - Zero
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He wasn't fit to be an officer in front line duty. The over reaction in the original incident, and then the inability to deal with the mickey taking indicates both. The Authority acted correctly to put him in another role in his own best interests. Now how does that justify constructive dismissal or a payout? Last edited by: Zero on Thu 6 Feb 14 at 11:09
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New Thu 6 Feb 14 11:13
Police officer compensation - Westpig
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>> He wasn't fit to be an officer in front line duty. The over reaction in >> the original incident, and then the inability to deal with the mickey taking indicates both. >> The Authority acted correctly to put him in another role in his own best interests. >> >> >> Now how does that justify constructive dismissal or a payout? >> My thoughts entirely |
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New Thu 6 Feb 14 11:24
Police officer compensation - Bromptonaut
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Constructive dismissal needs more than leaving in a fit of pique or annoyance. It occurs when them employer puts the employee in a position so bad that it becomes untenable. Resignation against that background is not voluntary. The issue is usually management that's 'macho' and/or not effective in dealing with real problems. My reading of this is that Gwent Police displayed both. Some of the published reports suggest their public handling of the case placed further pressure on the PC. The tribunal would likely have comprised a judge and two 'wing members' one from an employer background the other from the employee side - union or similar background. Constructive dismissal claims are ten a penny and tribunals will be well experienced in sorting wheat and chaff. |
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New Thu 6 Feb 14 11:30
Police officer compensation - henry k
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| From what I listened to, Bromptonaut seems to sum it up. |
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New Thu 6 Feb 14 11:36
Police officer compensation - Westpig
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>> My reading of this is that Gwent Police displayed both. Some of the published reports >> suggest their public handling of the case placed further pressure on the PC. That would fit...they bend over backwards to compensate the RR driver, regardless of any merit, just to keep things quiet and do a P.R. job on the whole matter...which leaves the PC nowhere to go. I've seen plenty of that spineless activity. >> Constructive dismissal claims are ten a penny and tribunals will be well experienced in sorting >> wheat and chaff. I sincerely hope so. I've had many dealings with weak individuals who DO need close management..and who will blame anyone or anything other than themselves. |
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New Thu 6 Feb 14 11:27
Police officer compensation - Dog
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>> So your colleagues take the rip out of you...so what?..If you're that sensitive why on earth did you join the Old Bill? Reminds me of the leg pullers and wind up merchants at Peckham/Camberwell/Rotherhithe nicks when tuning their private jamjars. S'funny though when I think I used to 'visit' those same nicks in my youth, but for slightly different reasons ;) |
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New Thu 6 Feb 14 15:56
Police officer compensation - Westpig
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Quote from David Davies: Meanwhile, David Davies MP said both he and Mr Baillon had urged Gwent Police to deal with the matter quickly. He said: "I didn't take sides but I did say it was in everyone's interest to get this sorted out quickly and it wasn't. "As a taxpayer I think the whole thing is ludicrous. But that particular officer was put in a very difficult situation by the force. "To single him out as an individual it wrong. There was a lot more to this case than was reported. He has done nothing wrong." |
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New Fri 7 Feb 14 12:06
Police officer compensation - henry k
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I note in the Times Range Rover registration E3RAS ( with no spaces). Let off that too? Retired businessman later received £65,000 compensation. PR & CYA action ? also... hit Mr Whatley's car window 15 times" In the interview on the radio Mike Baillon explained that there was film on the glass so the shattered glass stayed in place. He knew the doors were locked and had to make a hole in the window that was large enough to safely put his arm through in order to retrieve the car keys. I wonder about the disabled retired OAP passing the attitude test ?? :-( |
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New Fri 7 Feb 14 12:15
Police officer compensation - henry k
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| Correction. Report was in the Metro. |
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New Fri 7 Feb 14 13:12
Police officer compensation - Fenlander
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>>>E3RAS ( with no spaces). Let off that too? The Range Rover driver (Whatley) was taken to court in the early stages of all this and found guilty of not wearing a seat belt, failing to stop for a police officer and having tinted car windows that did not conform to legal requirements. He was cleared of failing to stop after an accident. He admitted having a registration plate which didn’t adhere to regulations and was fined a total of £235 and ordered to pay £300 towards prosecution costs. Of course Whatley failed the attitude test which will often cause officers to did a little deeper with regard to any possible offences. But then the officer lost any legal or moral high ground by himself failing the attitude test tenfold as is clearly seen in the video at 1.09 in this video... www.youtube.com/watch?v=kNDqmZyApRo ... where he had his baton raised and body posture set to smash into the car before he'd even looked through the drivers window to assess what the guy was up to. |
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New Fri 7 Feb 14 13:32
Police officer compensation - henry k
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Thanks for the clarification re prosecution. >>where he had his baton raised and body posture set to smash into the car before he'd even looked through the drivers window to assess what the guy was up to >> IIRC the RR driver had already driven off PRIOR to the video. The doors automatically lock. The aim is to stop a repeat of the drive off? There seemed to be no dispute that SOP was carried out exactly as he was trained. As you are probably aware a NORMAL.toughened glass window when smashed will often just fall out of the door frame else with maybe a nudge to assist it. This does not happen when film is applied to the glass. I cannot see what else to PC could do based on his earlier experience with the driver. He did as trained. It appears that his seniors do not argee that he followed his SOP. >>the officer lost any legal or moral high ground by himself failing the attitude test tenfold as is clearly seen in the video at 1.09 in this video... I cannot agree. |
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New Fri 7 Feb 14 13:55
Police officer compensation - Bromptonaut
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+1 to Henry. The Rangie driver was, putting it mildly, pushing his luck. If same course of action had been taken by a youngster in a Scoobie with dodgy tint and plates the Copper would be being patted on the back. The only reason it's got where where we are now is the portrayal of the driver as a sick and disabled pensioner. Anybody who has had a public facing role for a few weeks will tell you age and diability don't always equal Wurther's eating Grandad. |
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New Fri 7 Feb 14 15:46
Police officer compensation - Mapmaker
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+1 to Henry and Brompton. I have been won round by the court - and particularly by the words of our very own Boy in Blue - to declaring the copper not guilty. Odd though. As Westpig puts in such a sterling defence for him, why didn't his colleagues also say 'you poor devil, I'd have done the same.' From what I know of offices, whilst they can be harsh places, when one of your number is treated unfairly then he tends to become the recipient of sympathy. Why instead did they bully him so much that he had to leave the service. Very rum indeed. |
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New Fri 7 Feb 14 15:58
Police officer compensation - Bromptonaut
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>> Odd though. As Westpig puts in such a sterling defence for him, why didn't his >> colleagues also say 'you poor devil, I'd have done the same.' From what I know >> of offices, whilst they can be harsh places, when one of your number is treated >> unfairly then he tends to become the recipient of sympathy. Why instead did they bully >> him so much that he had to leave the service. Very rum indeed. Canteen culture and nature of bullying. If there is one or more 'alpha male' type in the outfit and they carry on ripping the guy others may not intervene. Or there may have been something in his past behaviour that meant he didn't elicit sympathy. Either way management should have been on the case in more pro-active way. Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Fri 7 Feb 14 at 16:02
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New Fri 7 Feb 14 16:32
Police officer compensation - Manatee
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+0.5 maybe from me. Whatley had been stopped for the seat belt offence and thought he had been dealt with. He had told the officers he needed to get home for his hear medication and when they followed him he thought he was getting a police escort home! According to which account you read, he either stopped because he finally decided there was something wrong, or because a stinger was deployed ahead of him. I don't necessarily believe this all this, but what does not seem to be in dispute is that this "pursuit" was conducted at very moderate speed within the limit, Mr Whatley did stop, and the PC instead of approaching the vehicle calmly and carefully, took a run up and laid into it in a frenzy. SOP that may be, but was it applied in the correct situation? Why did the PC's superiors punish him by removing him from his normal duties, and his colleagues shun and bully him? Why did the police decide to settle Whatley's claim - allegedly it was in the public interest to save expensive litigation - sounds more like a standard denial of liability, if it was cut and dried SOP the case would have been thrown out - maybe they thought they would lose? And what happened to the one who jumped on the bonnet? |
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New Fri 7 Feb 14 18:40
Police officer compensation - Fenlander
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The window was normal for a Range Rover... it was laminated hence the trouble smashing it. That ran a risk of glass shards in both driver's and officer's eyes... stupid action. I can see what the officer could have done... stood by the RR and said "Sir can you shut off your engine and open the door/window". In making this massively wrong call the officer lost his career, lost respect of his fellow officers and bosses, damaged the police reputation and cost the public purse close to £500,000 in total. The officers body language in the video shows a red mist moment given the low level of threat demonstrated in events leading up to that moment. The scoobie comparison doesn't stand up because that would likely have a glovebox full of drugs, boot full of Primark gear with security tags still on and just have led the officer on a 100mph chase endangering the lives of all on the road. Then perhaps urgent action is needed. >>>Odd though.... why didn't his colleagues also say 'you poor devil, I'd have done the same... Why instead did they bully him so much that he had to leave the service. Becaused he made himself, and therefore by association the force, look thuggish. |
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New Fri 7 Feb 14 18:56
Police officer compensation - Armel Coussine
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I posted this in the other place when it happened. Heard what sounded like a short burst of small-arms fire one afternoon in the Grove. Went out a bit later, at dusk, and under the motorway, about 100 yards down the road, surrounded by police tape and guarded by a couple of ordinary helmeted plods, was a big fat badass's black 4wd with black windows. Its rear window was crazed but also peppered with small holes like shotgun damage. Three of its tyres were flat. I asked one of the plods what had happened and the little twerp smirked and gave me some total rubbish. So that was that then. |
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New Fri 7 Feb 14 19:06
Police officer compensation - Westpig
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>> I can see what the officer could have done... stood by the RR and >> said "Sir can you shut off your engine and open the door/window". One doesn't do that when matey has already failed to stop. He's already shown his intent. If he'd come to his senses and changed his mind..he'd have opened the door, wouldn't he? >> The scoobie comparison doesn't stand up because that would likely have a glovebox full of >> drugs, boot full of Primark gear with security tags still on and just have led >> the officer on a 100mph chase endangering the lives of all on the road. Then >> perhaps urgent action is needed. ..and how does one know what's in the boot or glovebox of a car failing to stop? >> >>>Odd though.... why didn't his colleagues also say 'you poor devil, I'd have done the >> same... Why instead did they bully him so much that he had to leave the >> service. I'd take a rough guess he's a pillock..and pillock's get lampooned. If you're generally an alright guy and do something that gets you into the spotlight and receive some stick..you take the stick..and patiently wait until it's someone else's turn. What you don't do is throw your teddy out of the pram and resign. |
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New Fri 7 Feb 14 19:03
Police officer compensation - Robin O'Reliant
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>> >> >> Anybody who has had a public facing role for a few weeks will tell you >> age and diability don't always equal Wurther's eating Grandad. >> You're not kidding there. They can be the most self-righteous and aggressive pains in the butt you ever come across. |
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New Fri 7 Feb 14 19:05
Police officer compensation - Manatee
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>> The only reason it's got where where we are now is the portrayal of the >> driver as a sick and disabled pensioner. That and the facts that he was actually a sick and disabled pensioner, he wasn't alleged to be driving dangerously, he hadn't stolen the car, and he he did actually stop as opposed to crashing or being rammed :) |
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New Fri 7 Feb 14 19:10
Police officer compensation - Westpig
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>> That and the facts that he was actually a sick and disabled pensioner, he wasn't >> alleged to be driving dangerously, he hadn't stolen the car, and he he did actually >> stop as opposed to crashing or being rammed :) >> David Davies MP "There was a lot more to this case than was reported"... ...and...either, the officers did not know who was in the car, due to the blacked out windows, so they'd have no idea at all of the age/infirmity of the driver..or ...they did know and he has a criminal history... ...and he continuously failed to stop, so you grab your moment when you can, bearing in mind you're expecting the driver to resist or try to run you down. |
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New Fri 7 Feb 14 22:31
Police officer compensation - Fullchat
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| I know someone who had is neck slashed by a little old man who was sat in the back seat of a Police car. |
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New Fri 7 Feb 14 22:39
Police officer compensation - henry k
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I do wish the interview was available to listen to. The PC said he was used to the usual banter etc and the new stuff did not worry him but one very nasty graffiti of a personal nature on his locker did upset him. IIRC he had just ( 2 months previously?) comfortably passed his checks for his driving job including an assessment on his mental state to perform the role. He was moved not to a desk job or other role but to another driving job which still allowed him to use high speed ( up to 90mph?) activities. It seemed to me that there was little logic in what management did except for CYA and a poor attempt at demonstrating (to the press?) that they had acted to ensure he was moved. He said he walked away after the window was smashed thus indicating it was not red mist else he would have continued. It seemed very odd to me that he seemed to be spot on by all the forces assessments yet was moved. Overall he came across to me as pretty balance sort of guy and was interviewed extensively but did not get shouty or emotional. To undergo a 30 minute interview without getting wound up was to me impressive and not indicative of a red mist sort of PC.da As |
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New Fri 7 Feb 14 23:43
Police officer compensation - Manatee
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>> >> That and the facts that he was actually a sick and disabled pensioner, he >> wasn't >> >> alleged to be driving dangerously, he hadn't stolen the car, and he he did >> actually >> >> stop as opposed to crashing or being rammed :) >> >> >> >> David Davies MP "There was a lot more to this case than was reported"... Which was? We are always hearing this, and maybe it's true... but is this another case of nobody being able to tell an unspeakable truth? >> >> ...and...either, the officers did not know who was in the car, due to the blacked >> out windows, so they'd have no idea at all of the age/infirmity of the driver..or They had stopped him already. >> >> ...they did know and he has a criminal history... If it's relevant, it should be stated. If it isn't, it's no excuse. The police should be able state that they had reason to believe they might be dealing with a dangerous criminal, and if they had then the PC concerned would probably have got approbation from his colleagues rather than abuse and bullying. >> ...and he continuously failed to stop, so you grab your moment when you can, bearing >> in mind you're expecting the driver to resist or try to run you down. So standing on the bonnet wasn't such a great idea - as I think you said, in fairness. However. People do make mistakes. I think the police admitted as much, in the only way they ever do now, which is to pay compensation with no admission of liability. Contrary to popular myth, respect doesn't have to be earned, but it can be lost. Sadly, and I do deplore it, the police service has largely lost it. Not, in my opinion, the fault of the troops. A fish rots from the head. The now endemic lack of respect for police is a consequence of political interference, badly designed and implemented 'targets', and weak incompetent senior management who take responsibility for nothing. When something goes wrong that they can't sweep under the carpet, they settle out of court "in the public interest" without admitting any mistake, or in extremis find a scapegoat to take the heat (and if they are lucky, pay them off generously). This needs fixing. The police 'service' is all we can rely on to maintain some degree of personal safety and security. No good calling the AA. The service should have supported these officers regardless, assuming they acted in good faith, if necessary while admitting that they got it wrong and compensating the victim. On the other hand, if there was justification for what happened, they should be free to say so and fight the case - regardless of the legal costs. They might actually find that it is the complainants who back off. Last edited by: Manatee on Fri 7 Feb 14 at 23:45
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New Sat 8 Feb 14 07:57
Police officer compensation - Westpig
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>> >> David Davies MP "There was a lot more to this case than was reported"... >> >> Which was? We are always hearing this, and maybe it's true... but is this another >> case of nobody being able to tell an unspeakable truth? It's the norm. The Press print one part of a story, normally the salacious bit, to sell their newspapers...whilst the whole version goes unreported. >> >> They had stopped him already. Yes...and then put his windows in, because he wouldn't open the door. He was sat behind illegally blackened windows. >> >> >> >> >> >> ...they did know and he has a criminal history... >> >> If it's relevant, it should be stated. If it isn't, it's no excuse. The police >> should be able state that they had reason to believe they might be dealing with >> a dangerous criminal, You are not allowed to state that. >> >> However. >> >> People do make mistakes. I think the police admitted as much, in the only way >> they ever do now, which is to pay compensation with no admission of liability. The Police pay people off to make the story go away, as well as when mistakes are made. They'll pay people even if they ought to give it a run. They'll go for the easiest option, every time, regardless of whether or not it unnecessarily leaves an employee high and dry. >> >> Contrary to popular myth, respect doesn't have to be earned, but it can be lost. >> Sadly, and I do deplore it, the police service has largely lost it. Not, in >> my opinion, the fault of the troops. >> >> A fish rots from the head. Whose head though? The now endemic lack of respect for police is >> a consequence of political interference, badly designed and implemented 'targets', and weak incompetent senior management Couldn't agree more..and it's getting worse. Blame Tony, his lot started the worst of it with the interference, targets and performance related pay. The emasculation of senior cops continues today..the reason they are weak is because they've been deliberately reined in..more recently you've got the IPCC flexing its muscles and PCC's...you reap what you sow. |
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New Sat 8 Feb 14 08:04
Police officer compensation - Lygonos
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>>and PCC's... Don't you remember years of public clamouring, demanding the creating of elected Police commissioners to oversee their local Plod? Me neither - so much for slashing bureaucracy and quangos. About as sensible as Tony Blair's insane desire for an English 'Supercasino' as policy noone wanted or needed. |
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New Sat 8 Feb 14 14:24
Police officer compensation - Westpig
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>> Don't you remember years of public clamouring, demanding the creating of elected Police commissioners to >> oversee their local Plod? >> >> Me neither - so much for slashing bureaucracy and quangos. I have had a little chuckle about the 'difficulties' some of these PCC's have got themselves in.. but then remember how important the subject matter is and how wrong it's all been handled. |
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New Sat 8 Feb 14 08:35
Police officer compensation - swiss tony
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>> So standing on the bonnet wasn't such a great idea - as I think you >> said, in fairness. The officer in question DID NOT stand on the bonnet. His colleague (who appeared from in front of the stopped vehicle) did. |
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New Sat 8 Feb 14 10:45
Police officer compensation - Manatee
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| I didn't mean to suggest he did. Merely that if the reason for the shock and awe was because the dangerous master criminal might drive off at speed or use his vehicle as a weapon, it wasn't at all clever. |
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New Sat 8 Feb 14 14:22
Police officer compensation - Westpig
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>> I didn't mean to suggest he did. Merely that if the reason for the shock >> and awe was because the dangerous master criminal might drive off at speed or use >> his vehicle as a weapon, it wasn't at all clever. >> No, in hindsight. Possibly 'no' at the time, but not necessarily..it would depend on the circs. It's very easy to be clever about it afterwards. |
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New Sat 8 Feb 14 15:07
Police officer compensation - Manatee
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>>It's very easy to be clever about it afterwards That wouldn't be clever then :) Is standing on the bonnet SOP for any circs? Not a smart Alec remark, just a question. Maybe it was an ex tempore decision when he found he couldn't get at the passenger side to smash away there. |
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New Sat 8 Feb 14 16:29
Police officer compensation - Westpig
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>> Is standing on the bonnet SOP for any circs? No idea, but I'd suggest not. However, a RR isn't a normal vehicle either, you can't reach much of the windscreen, because it's high in the air. A SOP has the word 'standard' in it. that would suggest there are times when things are not standard..in which case you'd have to improvise. |
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New Sat 8 Feb 14 15:11
Police officer compensation - Mr. Ecs
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I don't think the reaction of this officer at the scene was OTT. The guy drove off after being stopped. They did not know when he stopped for the second time what his background or reason for driving off was. The whole stop was meant to surprise the RR driver and prevent possible trouble from him. Think back to the vehicle Kenneth Noye was driving when he killed Stephen Cameron. An old guy driving a 4x4. The police who stopped the guy in the RR were entitled to treat him the way they did until they knew otherwise. They didn't know why he ran. He may of committed a crime. Used a firearm or had an offensive weapon on board. In my view he deserved the treatment until the situation was down graded. As to the coppers reaction to banter. I think it has been used as an excuse to gain the payout. He was in a disciplined service that everyone gets ridicule from day one. He left. Should have moved on and claimed his pension already paid in when he reached the formal age to claim it. |
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New Sat 8 Feb 14 15:34
Police officer compensation - Bromptonaut
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>> As to the coppers reaction to banter. I think it has been used as an >> excuse to gain the payout. He was in a disciplined service that everyone gets ridicule >> from day one. He left. Should have moved on and claimed his pension already paid >> in when he reached the formal age to claim it. If it was just banter I might agree. It seems however to go well beyond that and to include actions and omissions by senior officers in the Gwent force. |
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New Sat 8 Feb 14 16:36
Police officer compensation - Westpig
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>> If it was just banter I might agree. It seems however to go well beyond >> that and to include actions and omissions by senior officers in the Gwent force. >> They left him to his own devices as a means of tempering their embarrassment at the negative portrayal of their Force in the You Tube clip. Instead of standing up and backing their staff*, they folded. It happens..a lot. It's wrong, but it's unlikely to change. I'm still not convinced constructive dismissal should have been found proven. He will not be the first or the last to be in that position and I wouldn't want to see the floodgates open. The individual officer should have toughened up or cleared off and worked somewhere else without remuneration. I'm not at all convinced Joe Public is happy to pay this sort of money out to someone who will still receive a reduced pension at 55, when many don't have anything at all. * even when they are wrong, if they've acted in good faith |
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New Sat 8 Feb 14 16:48
Police officer compensation - Bromptonaut
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>> The individual officer should have toughened up or cleared off and worked somewhere else without >> remuneration. Being put in position where you have to do that (big time, not just MTFU a bit) is the definition of constructive dismissal. Joe Public are in same position as shareholders. They need to kick management's ass so there's no next time. Focusing on who got the money and seeing it like a lottery win get's nowhere. |
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New Sat 8 Feb 14 20:35
Police officer compensation - Westpig
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>> Being put in position where you have to do that (big time, not just MTFU >> a bit) is the definition of constructive dismissal. But surely some jobs need a lot more of that than others? You don't need shrinking violets in the Old Bill, or Fire Brigade, or Army, etc, etc. Last edited by: Westpig on Sat 8 Feb 14 at 20:36
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New Sat 8 Feb 14 20:52
Police officer compensation - Bromptonaut
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>> But surely some jobs need a lot more of that than others? >> >> You don't need shrinking violets in the Old Bill, or Fire Brigade, or Army, etc, >> etc. Maybe or maybe not. Ability to front up miscreants is not necessarily same thing as subscribing to 'canteen culture'. Seen people who appear introverted in social situations place themselves between men with raised fists in the office. One told to scramoose to his own section other hauled in for a rollocking; both complied. The intervener would have weighed eight stone wet through. |
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New Sat 8 Feb 14 22:58
Police officer compensation - Kevin
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>Maybe or maybe not. Ability to front up miscreants is not necessarily same thing as >subscribing to 'canteen culture'. Miscreants? Subscribing? Let me get this straight. You expect plod to have a thick enough skin to deal with the booze and drug addled abusive scumbags they encounter every time the sun goes down but then pretend to be sensitive little souls who can't stand up to 'canteen culture'? Are you serious? >One told to scramoose to his own section other hauled in for a rollocking; both complied. Wow! That would work really well with a group of drunk and drugged gorillas facing up with knives outside a nightclub at chucking out time don't-cha think? Maybe WP can use his contacts to let you accompany a weekend nightshift? Last edited by: Kevin on Sat 8 Feb 14 at 23:01
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New Sat 8 Feb 14 23:22
Police officer compensation - Manatee
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| There is a lot of difference between dealing with abuse from the clients and being tormented by your own colleagues. Not the same thing at all. |
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New Sat 8 Feb 14 23:58
Police officer compensation - Bromptonaut
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>> There is a lot of difference between dealing with abuse from the clients and being >> tormented by your own colleagues. Not the same thing at all. Add in the fact that management are unsupportive around that and letting you down in other areas too. As I said, you've then got a clear case of constructive dismissal. |
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New Sun 9 Feb 14 09:19
Police officer compensation - Westpig
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>> Add in the fact that management are unsupportive around that and letting you down in >> other areas too. As I said, you've then got a clear case of constructive dismissal. >> Unsupportive management is rife..everywhere...go in to most companies and the worker bees will moan. They can't all have constructive dismissal for being unsupported. Just get on with it. |
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New Sun 9 Feb 14 00:19
Police officer compensation - Kevin
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>There is a lot of difference between dealing with abuse from the clients and being tormented >by your own colleagues. Not the same thing at all. Unless you have brought the ridicule upon yourself by your own stupidity? |
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New Sun 9 Feb 14 00:32
Police officer compensation - henry k
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>> >>There is a lot of difference between dealing with abuse from the clients >> and being tormented by your own colleagues. Not the same thing at all. >> >> Unless you have brought the ridicule upon yourself by your own stupidity? >> But in this case it would appear that the PC acted according to his training. |
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New Sun 9 Feb 14 21:49
Police officer compensation - MD
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>> The police who stopped the guy in the RR were entitled to treat him >> the way they did until they knew otherwise. They didn't know why he ran. He >> may of committed a crime. Used a firearm or had an offensive weapon on board. >> Offensive weapon eh! That's the way then. Take half a lunch break to get access then with a Truncheon. Get real. |
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