Following the thread about taking a UK van to Germany has made me think about why fewer and fewer people are now bothering to learn to drive and those that can do less.
Of course we have the huge increase in the cost of car use that has come about in the past 20 years or so. Then congestion and lack of easy parking.
Now we have a reason why motoring has lost its spontaneity (if that's the right word ?)
Once you'd get in your car and go without a thought about parking at the other end. If I know I'm going to a new place I'll check the parking there first ( the internet, Streetview etc. is super for this). Then you need to check if your route is in a congestion charge zone or maybe even your destination. Add winter tyres in Germany and various central area restrictions in many European cities.
On top of this we've got bus lanes cameras, yellow box cameras and so on to pick up any tiny (and frequently irrelevant) transgression of rules.
It's just no fun anymore.
These days you'll be just as likely to find me on the bus or tube.
The younger family members who have flown the nest have cars but often as not will take a train from one city to another rather than drive.
The end is nigh !
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I didn't know it was dropping, but if it is I suspect its to do with the cost of insurance for young people.
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>>>It's just no fun anymore.
Oh really... just come out with me in the Alfa tomorrow on my 45ml midday cross country "work" run. I promise fun!
Not sure where you live DE but that can have a lot to do with it. We are unaffected by speed cameras, parking issues or congestion from one month to the next. In our area probably 75% of my daughter's 18yr old friends have passed their tests and own cars already.
Last edited by: Fenlander on Thu 23 Jan 14 at 15:00
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>> It's just no fun anymore.
I felt much the same for a few years, driving washing machine after washing machine, but since getting my weekend car, I have fell in love with driving again and will go for a drive simply for pleasure.
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Yes, it all depends on the car. I have got something that I love driving after many years of 'washing machines' and I actually look forward to going out in it. Had my license since 82.
My current car is just a nice powerful sleeper-looking car. I had a TVR Griffith 500 back when they were popular but once I got over the thrill of new ownership I found it a pain to drive and would prefer to jump into my then girlfriends car if I just wanted to go shopping just to avoid the hassle.
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I suspect that car ownership and use are still cheaper in terms of earnings than in 1994. Then I had a 1.4 Astra that had recently cost me, I think, £11,000 new and went about nine miles on a litre of petrol that cost me about 55p, so 12,000 miles cost me about £730 in fuel.
The LEC I drove to work today cost me £16,000 (not new, of course, but still vastly superior to that Astra in every respect bar noise quality - but I could probably still get a new Astra for £11,000) and also does nine(ish) miles on a litre, although at 140p, so about £1,850 for a year's fuel. It costs about the same to insure today as I paid 20 years ago for the Astra.
In that time, of course, my gross income has tripled, rising even faster than the cost of energy. (And almost of that increase happened before 2010, so even the stagnation of the Cameron years has not made car ownership and use less affordable than it was in 1994.)
It is undoubtedly less fun, though. After a long spell in the Midlands, I'm back in the South, not far from where I was living then. Revisiting old favourite roads in Oxfordshire and Hampshire, I'm struck by the proliferation of unnecessary 50, 40 and even 30 limits on roads that ought to be NSL. And traffic. Everywhere!
It was enough to change my thinking about cars. The LEC is properly an E220 CDI estate. Not long ago, I'd have scorned a four-cylinder diesel and leapt at a six-cylinder E320 but, honestly, for the roads I drive, what's the point? I've not yet encountered a situation in which the E220 wasn't quick enough, and six cylinders would just mean two more to stir the porridge in traffic queues. A pity: I'm sure if I'd had one, I'd have been delighted with it.
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You are not losing interest, you are driving in the wrong areas. A good car also helps. I think I would lose the will to live if I had to drive a lot in a congested area. :-)
Last edited by: Uncle Albert on Thu 23 Jan 14 at 15:54
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Undoubtedly, Unc (if it's me you mean.) Trouble is, this is where I can earn that tripled income.
Found myself thinking last night what we could get house-wise for the equity we have in the current Beesthuis. I could afford a £20,000 drop in salary if I didn't have the mortgage, and maybe there'd be better roads to drive on somewhere cheaper too.
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There is a hell of a lot more to life than shed loads of money. It is the quality of it that counts.
Last edited by: Uncle Albert on Thu 23 Jan 14 at 16:05
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Trouble is, WDB, once you leave a WDH, there's no going back as the value of the place you move to will never keep up. I've neighbours here who left London not too long ago, changed their minds and realised they were stuffed.
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I have a friend who left my area in the Home Counties to move to Norfolk to be closer to her parents. He bought a nice pad at a cost of having to semi commute to his office in Kent. Roll on 10 years and he has decided that he doesn't like Norfolk after all and now can't afford to move back. Roads are good up there though I guess!
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>>You are not losing interest, you are driving in the wrong areas. A good car also helps. I think I would lose the will to live if I had to drive a lot in a congested area. :-)
What ^^she^^ said plus I really, really enjoy driving my Forester, unlike the domestic appliances I've owned in the past.
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"he doesn't like Norfolk after all"
What? It's paradise on earth. And the roads are empty and there are lots of them.
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Yes,but they don't go anywhere!
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>> It's paradise on earth <<
Methwold, Feltwell?
Good roads?
I won't tell them if you don't CG!
Pat
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I don't like driving but have done almost 50 miles today just going no where. All I do is drive in heavy traffic. If I lived in the countryside I am sure I would enjoy driving.
I couldn't do my job without my car, but if I worked in an office I think I would just rely on public transport, we have an excellent ever expanding tram system and even the buses are very cheap (if you buy weekly tickets) and reliable.
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I traditionally love driving, but since my 20 mile commute crept over an hour (and the average speeds under 20 mph), I just find myself longing for an automatic, or better still not having to bother. If a form of public transport existed that was affordable and even semi-convenient, I'd use it in a shot.
Driving on a quiet country road is one thing, but the kind of driving most of us have to do to get to work or perform other basic daily tasks has no fun attached to it at all. I would hate my daily commute even in a Ferrari.
Last edited by: DP on Thu 23 Jan 14 at 17:13
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I still love driving, and the freedom it brings, even though looking at the average speed on my car's computer makes depressing reading!
I find an auto is essential, and in my VW Transporter, sitting up above most traffic I do find it more relaxing than behind down behind a low windscreen where you can't see what's going on up ahead.
But use a bus?!? Only if I have to go in the Congestion Charge zone (rare), and every time I do reminds me to use alternative transport.
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>>
>> I couldn't do my job without my car, but if I worked in an office
>> I think I would just rely on public transport, we have an excellent ever expanding
>> tram system and even the buses are very cheap (if you buy weekly tickets) and
>> reliable.
>>
>>
>>
I would not only have to hate driving, I'd have to be absolutely terrified of getting behind the wheel or the handlebars before I'd subject myself to the horrors of public transport. It's about 15 years since I was on a bus and that was only because I had to collect my car after a service and Mrs O'Reliant couldn't take me. I still shudder at the memory.
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Things have changed a lot in 15 years. What is so hard on getting a bus that is every 5 minutes or a tram that is every 12 minutes? The bus takes around 25 minutes, the tram about 12 into the city centre. No worries about parking etc. It can take more than 12 minutes just to get into the car park in Manchester city centre.
I wouldn't say I enjoy travelling on buses as they are slow, but the trams are wonderful.
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>> Things have changed a lot in 15 years. What is so hard on getting a
>> bus that is every 5 minutes or a tram that is every 12 minutes?
>>
The fact that I can't control the temperature or smoke and there is no radio. And of course the other people you have to travel with.
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Temperature - Not really on transport long enough for that to bother me, trains and coaches are another matter but I always take a jumper just in case.
Radio - use your Walkman and headphones
Other people - Can be a problem especially on buses, but again it is quite rare, other people are more annoying when you're driving.
Smoke - Well it buses are good for your health then :).
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>> I wouldn't say I enjoy travelling on buses as they are slow, but the trams
>> are wonderful.
>>
So they should be, for the money they cost.
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>> have done almost 50 miles today just going no where.
Is that strictly accurate Sheikha? Weren't you dropping and picking up knackered/cobbled computers and arguing about money with clients, in between popping into the shop for yr mother?
50 miles through the middle of a congested city is going to take three hours minimum and involve a lot or sitting in traffic jams. That's what it's like.
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>> why fewer and fewer people are now bothering to learn to drive and those that
>> can do less.
>> come about in the past 20 years or so. Then congestion and lack of easy
>> parking.
Surely increased congestion and failing car ownership does not compute?
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"Surely increased congestion and failing car ownership does not compute?"
It can and it does. For example, around where I live I used to be able to drive along a choice of dozens of residential roads to get where I wanted. Little by little traffic management schemes have forced the vehicles onto the "main" roads by making the local roads inaccessible. All it may want is one "No Entry" sign and a 10m length of one way street to prevent through traffic passing. Good for the residents, but the remainder are forced onto forever fewer and fewer roads.
This is happening all over our towns
Then lets put in a couple of yellow box junctions - drivers hold back for fear of even entering and stopping a metre in or leaving a metre overhanging for fear of the dreaded camera. This slows down all the traffic in the queue. (Encroaching a small way into a box does NOT block a junction, but hey it raises revenue.)
20 mph limits, 15mph in some places. Chicanes and width limits. Shall I go on.
Only today I was prevented from turning left at a junction forcing me to drive 500m along the road beyond the turn and into a congested one-way system and back out again in the direction I came from. I drove about 1Km extra to avoid a scamera ticket. And so it goes on.
Have you tried driving on the fringe of the London Congestion Zone to avoid the charge ? Everybody else is at it and so causing massive problems on those roads.
So yes, the two statements are not mutually exclusive.
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>
>> Have you tried driving on the fringe of the London Congestion Zone to avoid the
>> charge ? Everybody else is at it and so causing massive problems on those roads.
>>
>> So yes, the two statements are not mutually exclusive.
Err no. You haven't proven falling car ownership.
In fact congestion and car ownership go hand in hand
ie
racfoundation.wordpress.com/2013/04/12/number-of-vehicles-in-uk-hits-new-high/
Last edited by: Zero on Thu 23 Jan 14 at 19:30
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Not many of my friends have cars, those who live in the urban areas don’t bother either because they don’t need one or haven’t got jobs. I have a car because living where we do there is no option and I have a good job. I used to borrow my Mum’s but when she changed work patterns it meant she was using it more at the times when I asked to borrow it. So that is when I bought my car, I was 18 so about time to have my own anyway. My best friend has five cars though, so he skews the average a bit! I don’t think all are legal though, I think two are SORNed. I was lucky though because when I was 16 and 17 he would taxi me about since he is quite a bit older than me, it was really useful and he took me out for driving practice many times, we must have covered hundreds of miles. I hope one day I can pay him back somehow but never seems to want or need anything from me.
If I lived in a town or city then I might not bother having a car. However if you live out in the sticks as we do then it changes the balance of need a bit, that is why I taxi my younger brother around a lot, there is no other way of getting around, the buses are next to useless. I don't mind helping him out. My brother would like a car this August when he’s 17 but the insurance is ridiculous. One disadvantage is that I get to be Mr Taxi a lot since it never bothers me if I don’t have a drink, it’s surprising what I’ve had in the Scenic, on Saturday I had three tennis girls from the club in the back and on Sunday six chainsaws and two Honda generators!
Last edited by: MJW1994 on Thu 23 Jan 14 at 19:45
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Saturday sounded like fun. ;-)
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>>>Saturday sounded like fun. ;-)
Yep but Sunday... chainsaws!
Girls/chainsaws... difficult call.
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Saturday - party at the tennis club and I was taking the girls home at about midnight to make sure they got back safely.
Sunday - helping my Uncle move some of his kit since his van is currently broken (dual mass flywheel gone)
Nothing more exciting than that I'm afraid!
Not on this occasion anyway....
;-)
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Matt don't hang round here much longer, the old codgers will corrupt you :).
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Ha, well I can handle them. I think :-)
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They haven't corrupted you yet, Rattle!
If my driving was all in and around a city like Manchester, I doubt if I'd enjoy driving as much as I do. I'd certainly want an automatic, probably a hybrid.
It's better in the area where I live (not far from Will de B), and you can find traffic-free roads if you look for them. But we hope to retire a bit further west without being too far from the grandchildren; I've noticed quite a bit less traffic in Wilts and Dorset, away from the towns.
The new manual vRS has quite a spring in its step and I look forward to a few more years at least of enjoying driving for the sake of it.
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"on Saturday I had three tennis girls from the club"
When you say "had" .............?
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I must admit I was swearing at my gearbox by the end of the day!. My engine has no torque being a 1.1 8v 54bhp unit so you can imagine how frequent gear changes are.
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It very much depends where you live. I enjoy driving my 330 every single time I take it out of the garage. If I were going to the city, I would either use the train for the entire journey if enjoying a few sherbets, or park up and catch the train from nearer.
Tonight I had an absolute blast driving home. The last 20 miles, in the dark, on fast single carriageway which I know like the back of my hand. Sweeping bends, some fast straights, a real mix with virtually no traffic. Only one numpty driving a white R Rover flashed his lights and sounded his horn as I safely overtook him at considerable speed. Not had as much fun with my kecks on since erm, last week.
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>> I must admit I was swearing at my gearbox by the end of the day!. My engine has no torque being a 1.1 8v 54bhp unit so you can imagine how frequent gear changes are.
OFFS Sheikha you're just windinng us up again. Surely you don't notice gearchanges any more and they just come in a natural flow.
And you haven't admitted yet that far from going nowhere, you were trying to do a couple of things.
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I had to drive a Fiesta a while back, I don’t know what engine but I think it was a three cylinder judging by the gruff engine sound. Being used to a 2.0 diesel at times I wondered if the car wanted me to get out and push. It had that highly irritating stop-start feature that drove me mad after about half a mile and I couldn’t find any way of turning the wretched feature off.
Otherwise I quite liked it and thought with a different engine such as a 1.4 16v it would probably be an excellent car. Too small for my needs though.
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>> I must admit I was swearing at my gearbox by the end of the day!.
>> My engine has no torque being a 1.1 8v 54bhp unit so you can imagine
>> how frequent gear changes are.
Some sympathy with that based on driving my own 70 PS 05 Berlingo 1.9D in heavy traffic. Not so much the gearbox as the heavy clutch consequent on a cable that in RHD versions wonders round the engine bay.
Then I remember c. 1978 being sent in my Mother's nearly new 956 cc Renault 5TL (XBU 151S) from Leeds to collect an Aunt from North Wales. Intention was she keep her sister in law, my paternal Grandmother, company while my parents were on holiday.
Stuck in a half hour traffic jam round Rhos on Sea I began to think my left leg was going to give up.....
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Sat 25 Jan 14 at 19:55
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Haha, yes! First car I drove after passing my test was a 1981 4 GTL, MTF 382X. 1108cc but the same deadweight clutch. Phew, that was hard work!
I remember in 1998 changing my flood-defunct Saab 900 for a new 9-3 and being struck by the difference a hydraulic clutch made.
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I think I've actually become less tolerant of public transport as I've got older; 10 or 15 years ago I'd happily hop on a plane for a short haul flight. Post 9/11 airport security is so mind numbingly frustrating that I'll avoid it at almost any cost. Sometimes driving, sometimes by train or sometimes by just not bothering!
So when I found out on Wednesday that it'd be useful if I was at a supplier about 10kms outside Brussels the following day it didn't take long to work out that driving was going to be on a par time wise with the train or plane, and far more convenient as I could go from door to door in the comfort of of my own car! Total travel time under 5 hours in each direction - and no waiting for a plane / train on the return. 476 miles driven at an average of just over 60mph and at 48.7 mpg. Add on the £60 for a day return through the tunnel and was probably also the cheapest mode of transport as well! And I enjoyed the drive - though I have to admit that at 05:30 on the M20, for the first time since I bought it, the 'Attention Assist' system warned me that I might be drowsy. To be fair the M20 is very boring!
But I can get enjoyment out of driving almost any car, in the right circumstances. None of our cars are what you'd called exciting, but there's always enjoyment to had for me. Our 3 cylinder Up! is great fun to chuck along narrow roads, and loves being thrashed, which is entertaining. The old Cabriolet handles like a boat, but top down on a bright day with a smooth V6 petroleum engine and a slushy old-school 4 speed auto it's a lovely thing to waft around in. £530 of A8 (it's still going!!) creates a ridiculous amount of satisfaction on the commute to work - it's just so relaxing. Ironically I probably get less pleasure from driving the Merc, though it's a very capable car. Perhaps that's a reason some people lose interest in driving. Modern cars are, on the whole, very competent but perhaps a bit soulless?
Last edited by: PeterS on Sat 25 Jan 14 at 21:03
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I am Scenic-less at the moment so have the treat of driving around in an old Fiesta 51 reg with a 1.25 engine (I think). Not a bad small car, handles sharply and the engine is smooth and zippy although there’s not much power there. The main problem with small cars is if I have the driver’s seat positioned so I’m comfortable, then there’s not much room for rear passengers, not that I’ve had anyone in the back lately. I don’t think I could ever have a small car though.
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...not that I’ve had anyone in the back lately.
}8---( )
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Oh, yes not what I meant on this occasion!
Before anyone asks, the Reno isn't broken. I've lent it to one of my friends for a week. I'm missing it already!
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I am nearly 6ft and I never had an issue with space in my Panda, in fact the driving position is very comfortable. Even managed to get some 1800 x900 plasterboard in the back of it!
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What's your point, Rats? Man of medium height finds adequate space in car?
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My point is a well deigned small car can carry an awful lot of stuff, ok I now sound like Alex Isigonnis but I personally love small cars especially in the city. My Panda is a lot faster than any X5 in the old Victorian Streets round here because I can squeeze into tight gaps. That said my push bike is faster still!>
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But leg room behind your driver seat in the Panda isn't going to be great is it.
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I have sat in the back of my mates on long journeys twice, one to Anglesey (110 miles) and once to Penrith (similar distance) it really isn't that bad but the seat wasn't all the way back. If you do have a lot of back seat passengers then a Panda isn't really ideal. The main issue in the back of a small car like the Panda is you only have about 1 foot from the seat to the tailgate, meaning if the car was to be rare ended by a lorry or something it could be quite scary.
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I quite like those UP! cars, if I had to have a small car then that would be one I would look closer at. Having spent the best part of a week in a Fiesta it has confirmed why I prefer bigger cars – bigger seats, more refinement, better value and more metal around me in the event of a collision.
If I only needed two seats then a small car might work but I’m over 6ft and if I have the seat where I like it then the person behind complains. My life is fairly unpredictable and I need extra seating or luggage space often at short notice. When I think of the last few weeks I’ve needed a decent size car for carrying people and luggage. In the last week in the back of the Scenic I’ve transported three young ladies, chainsaws and two generators, last night I had three hefty rugby mates, this afternoon various oily bits of Imprezza and finally about fifty boxes of new demonstration women’s under-garments!
It was nice to see my car again, I have missed it! It was returned fully cleaned inside and out, full tank of diesel and a nice gift on the passenger seat. I often get asked why I don’t get a small sporty hatchback, then I explain. I am perhaps a bit odd but increasingly comfortable with it :-)
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Losing interest in driving - No FM2R
