British families should stop buying new cars, fridges and washing machines and instead repair them when they fail in a bid to save the environment, a senior Government adviser has said.
tinyurl.com/ou5m8rw
We should all buy Mercedes W124s and keep them for 30 years.. it's official!
Last edited by: madf on Wed 8 Jan 14 at 13:24
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Presumably his official vehicle is a thirty year old Ital?
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He is a boffin, and completely devoid of any economic sense at all.
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It's perfectly true that repairing things and making them last longer is less bad for the environment over time.
Trouble is it torpedoes the economy. You can't win, especially if you are a bien-pensant Tory minister.
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"bien-pensant Tory minister" BEWARE: Oxymoron warning!
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This is a government advisor (of which there are many - non political) not a Tory Minister.
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>> a government advisor (of which there are many - non political) not a Tory Minister.
Guh, so it was. Still applies in spades to Tory ministers though.
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BEWARE: Oxymoron warning!
No fear of tautology, though, Rog?
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"Professor David MacKay, the energy department’s chief scientific adviser, said that electronic equipment and cars should be kept for as long as possible and then disassembled so that components can be recycled. "
I'm doing my bit. When my 1964 Triumph 2000 finally fell to pieces I saved all the bits and am now using them as required in a 1967 model.
Don't worry, the great British fridge industry won't be making any money out of me. I recently inherited the 1954 Prestcold I grew up with, still in perfect running order.
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Professor MacKay - the author - is an eminently qualified physicist and has written a 230 odd long page book Sustainable Energy - Without the Hot Air.
..www.withouthotair.com/sewthacontents.shtml
It's all on teh internet.
As I skim read it, his main conclusions are:
supplies of oil and gas are going to run out in 50 years
So coal fired power stations are the big emitter of CO2 and we should price carbon emissions so no power station which is coal fired runs without carbon capture - and is economical at those prices.
The only problems are:
we have actually found lots more oil and gas supplies since he wrote his book c2006
I quote its preface:
I recently read two books, one by a physicist, and one by an economist.
In Out of Gas, Caltech physicist David Goodstein describes an impending
energy crisis brought on by The End of the Age of Oil. This crisis is coming
soon, he predicts: the crisis will bite, not when the last drop of oil is
extracted, but when oil extraction can’t meet demand – perhaps as soon
as 2015 or 2025.
Since then oil supplies have increased to >40 years at current usages and more are being found - in excess of consumption.
And the other problem is : increasing the cost of carbon is fine - if people can afford to pay it. If they cannot, they die through cold..
So I am afraid although he may very well be right in the long term he is very very very wrong in the short term..
Last edited by: madf on Wed 8 Jan 14 at 14:27
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As I've said before the most important variable, probably by an order of magnitude, is ensuring the world's population is kept under control.
Haven't seen the government/WHO memo on that one yet.
Education and better wealth distribution are the usual factors that reduce family sizes without the need for punitive/insane schemes.
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>> Education and better wealth distribution are the usual factors that reduce family sizes without the need for punitive/insane schemes.
Yes. Actually Lygonos I have just finished working on a text by an admirably energetic and original anthropologist who says that repeatedly, all ways round, with quite demented emphasis, as if we didn't know already... I suppose some people still haven't twigged, quite apart from the ones who know it full well but are viscerally against equality and the great unwashed knowing a thing or two...
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Please tell the new Pope...
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Compared to the Nazi one, the new guy seems more pragmatic and less dogmatic.
Unless that's just spin of course.
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>> Compared to the Nazi one, the new guy seems more pragmatic and less dogmatic.
>>
>> Unless that's just spin of course.
>>
The new Pope has confirmed he will not change the basic teachings of the Church on contentious issues: like birth control, abortion , marrying divorced people. etc etc.
So apart from better PR, no change...
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>> the Nazi one
Good polemic but it may be a bit unfair to call Ratzinger a Nazi. Had a neighbour in the Grove who had been in the Hitler Youth as a girl, and she wasn't a Nazi, far from it indeed. Germans are highly intelligent, cultured and civilized, and they always were give or take a weakness for uniforms and weaponry and a general feeling of superiority (other nations have these things too, I would remind people). They didn't all buy Hitler's rubbish or any part of it.
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>> Please tell the new Pope...
A family friend posited over Christmas that 'Is the Pope a Catholic?' may no longer have a definite answer.
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>> Please tell the new Pope...
>>
I think the rule generally holds true though in catholic countries as well.
Prosperity eventually causes a lower birth rate.
The snag is that prosperity also causes higher carbon emissions.
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One of my oldest childhood pals, who is still a bit of an unreconstructed hippie, ( think Neil from the "Young Ones" ) is about to buy his third car.
He's a self-employed narrowboat signwriter ( niche or what? ). Does all the swirly bits and nameplates.
Anyway, he passed his driving test in about 1978 when he realised that he needed something to lug his work kit around in and to use as a car too. He bought a then more or less new Escort Estate which he kept for about 20 years when he replaced it with a new, I think it's a Megane ( some kind of Renault anyway ) estate which he's had since around 1998.
He was grumbling that it hasn't lasted as long ( "only" 15.5 years ) and he'll need to buy something else now.
Apparently that's like a "brain pain" man...
;-)
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David MacKay is no idiot. I'd be inclined to take what he says seriously.
I would, however, be less inclined to take what the Daily Mail or Daily Telegraph says that he said as being the complete truth.
I'd be interested to see what he actually said in its original context.
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>> David MacKay is no idiot. I'd be inclined to take what he says seriously.
>>
>> I would, however, be less inclined to take what the Daily Mail or Daily Telegraph
>> says that he said as being the complete truth.
>>
>> I'd be interested to see what he actually said in its original context.
>>
I think his basic point is that the Earth's resources are finite, so encouraging people to chuck stuff away rather than repair - and do it ever more frequently - is a dodgy long term strategy. Seems like an entirely sensible point to me, it just flies in the face of the way our consumer economy is being driven.
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>> I think his basic point is that the Earth's resources are finite, so encouraging people
>> to chuck stuff away rather than repair - and do it ever more frequently -
>> is a dodgy long term strategy. Seems like an entirely sensible point to me, it
>> just flies in the face of the way our consumer economy is being driven.
>>
>>
He also said that manufacturers should be "encouraged" to manufacture goods so they are repairable..
But really his message has zero hope of success when the world economy is : based on growth which is entwined inextricably with technology.
We buy the next Iphone as it's better than the previous model, ditto TV , ditto car etc.
I cannot in reality see how you can have largescale and rampant technological development consistent with keeping consumer goods for a long time.. Would anyone seriously want a 1980s Hoover in preference to a Dyson? Not many would say yes..
As for cars , think fuel consumption and safety in 1980s cars and those today...
Last edited by: VxFan on Wed 8 Jan 14 at 19:10
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>> I cannot in reality see how you can have largescale and rampant technological development consistent with keeping consumer goods for a long time..
You can actually, but it would mean a different sort of society and a different sort of economy.
The rampant gratuitous waste we all regard as normal is to do with capitalism, not technology as such. Maximum redundancy, maximum turnover, maximum profit where it matters and damn the consequences. That's the tradition. Needless to say most technology is bound up in and rationed by the same system. What isn't?
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>> Would anyone seriously want a 1980s Hoover
>> in preference to a Dyson? Not many would say yes..
>>
I don't know why you picked on a Dyson - they aren't very good.
In a recent Which? magazine report they tested 155 different models of vacuum cleaner. The highest placed Dyson was 44th.
The were beaten (geddit!) by - in no special order - various models of Miele, Bosch, Sebo, Samsung and - yes, Hoover.
So don't make a Dyson your first choice. You are better off with a Hoover.
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>> >> Would anyone seriously want a 1980s Hoover
>> in preference to a Dyson? Not many would say yes..
>>
Yes.
We get a lot Dysons donated to the shop. The doners always say, there's not much wrong with it, I'm sure you can fix it. But we can't, because they are rubbish.
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>
>> I think his basic point is that the Earth's resources are finite, so encouraging people
>> to chuck stuff away rather than repair - and do it ever more frequently -
>> is a dodgy long term strategy. Seems like an entirely sensible point to me, it
>> just flies in the face of the way our consumer economy is being driven.
>>
If that was taken up, we would still be watching small black and white TV's, using large bakelite hard wired telephones and we certainly would not be discussing it on "here"
"Here" wouldn't exist.
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>> If that was taken up, we would still be watching small black and white TV's,
>> using large bakelite hard wired telephones and we certainly would not be discussing it on
>> "here"
>>
>> "Here" wouldn't exist.
>>
We can have technological progress without designing everything to fall to bits after 12 months and be unrepairable; it's a matter of degree and particularly product cost. We won't get super cheap products like we do now that would last decades, so it won't happen.
Last edited by: VxFan on Thu 9 Jan 14 at 10:14
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>> We can have technological progress without designing everything to fall to bits after 12 months
>> and be unrepairable; it's a matter of degree and particularly product cost. We won't get
>> super cheap products like we do now that would last decades, so it won't happen.
>>
Err,,,not really.
Basic parts like electronic circuits are mass produced in such a way to be cheap. The consequences of redesigning them to make them "repairable" would probably increase their size and cost.. And thus make them unsaleable..
And in cars whilst we all may complain about the replacement costs of say and electric steering column and gubbins, it is designed to be cheaply mass produced. In modern technology, the costs of listing extra spares bits and stocking them will undoubtedly add significantly to the cost of spares.
We tend to keep our cars for decades, I have just repaired our 11 year old Bosch washing machine for leaks and our fridge/freezer is 20 and going strong. BUT repairing the fluid parts of a fridge is impossible due to the toxic nature of the refrigerant.
And repairing the washing machine needed star drives to undo it. Not easily obtained.. fortunately I have a set..
Anyone got a condensing boiler? Best example of badly designed rubbish with built in obsolesence seen.
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>>repairing the washing machine needed star drives to undo it. Not easily obtained.. fortunately I have a set..
Loads of em on the Bay.
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>> Basic parts like electronic circuits are mass produced in such a way to be cheap.
>> The consequences of redesigning them to make them "repairable" would probably increase their size and
>> cost.. And thus make them unsaleable..
>>
Agreed - that's what I'm saying - a more long lasting/repairable product will cost more to make so it won't happen; we've got used to paying 4 quid for a toaster that lasts a year.
Last edited by: VxFan on Thu 9 Jan 14 at 13:31
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My Panda is approaching four years old now and I have no plans to change it. I really like the idea of buying a brand new car and keeping it till it dies. I might end up selling my Panda in 18 months time when I start my lecturer training but that will be because I simply will have no need for the car anymore.
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Examples are there to be seen...
Third world countries are already like this.
Everything is decrepit and scruffy and people make <£5 a day because the economy is stagnant.
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SWMBO thought I was mad for dismantling a dead electric toothbrush (they're available for four quid or less). Found a broken electrical connection and repaired it.
More satisfaction than cost effective.
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The high cost of parts and labour is also a deciding factor when considering repair or replacement. Particularly with vehicles some components are exorbitant in relation to the overall new cost of a vehicle. Coupled with 'wealth' we would prefer to throw our money at new products.
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I am in the fix and break business as most people know. I run an IT services company but really I just fix and repair computers. It always surprises me attitudes, it goes from them wanting pay me £100 to fix an ancient XP machine to other customers not wanting to go ahead with a £90 screen replacement on a 10 month old laptop because they can buy a new laptop for £200! (so they think).
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>>it goes from them wanting pay me £100 to fix an ancient XP machine
>> to other customers not wanting to go ahead with a £90 screen replacement on a
>> 10 month old laptop because they can buy a new laptop for £200! (so they
>> think).
As it happens I can do my own repairs but £100 to keep an old but viable XP going for another couple of years would be an OK deal.
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An acquaintance of mine ( I hesitate to say good friend because I could not spend a night boozing with him) is a quintessential fixer. A wealthy individual. owner of three houses, he recycles and repairs anything & everything. Washers, TVs, vacuums, cordless drill batteries, etc. Runs around in a P reg Audi A4 Tdi which a few years ago threw its belt. It was repaired at more cost than it was worth, and his previous car was 20 years old when it finally rotted away, despite the most intense maintenance.
I think my point is, that in this world of gross consumerism, and throw away goods, I admire him intensely. Totally different mindset to me, I just wish I had a fraction of his electrical and engineering skills.
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It sounds like a miserable life to me, don't get me wrong I have fixed PVRs and CD players etc but I also know when to draw the line. I do love fixing things and doing general DIY but I can think of nothing worse than being a tight wod.
I am planning to keep my car for a long time but if in a few years time the garage visits start to get more frequent it has to go.
I am too much the other way though I repair and mend and make do not so I can be rich but so I can go on holiday or meet my mates in the pub.
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>> I am in the fix and break business as most people know. I run an
>> IT services company but really I just fix and repair computers. It always surprises me
>> attitudes, it goes from them wanting pay me £100 to fix an ancient XP machine
>> to other customers not wanting to go ahead with a £90 screen replacement on a
>> 10 month old laptop because they can buy a new laptop for £200! (so they
>> think).
>>
Ah yes, the other aspect of this is that many folk seem to want stuff to break so they have an excuse to go out and buy shiny new stuff (which is generally even more poorly made but shinier).
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>> The high cost of parts and labour is also a deciding factor when considering repair
>> or replacement. Particularly with vehicles some components are exorbitant in relation to the overall new
>> cost of a vehicle. Coupled with 'wealth' we would prefer to throw our money at
>> new products.
>>
I've mentioned this before but colleagues from elsewhere in Europe are always amazed at how cheap used cars are here - they tend to run older and higher mileage cars than we do. Our man in Holland bought a Volvo S80 with 160,000Kms on it (100K miles) and described it as "new" in the same way as we would talk about a pre-reg!
And it's not that repairs are cheap there - they seem to almost cheerfully regularly pay hundreds of Euros for repairs.
Last edited by: Bill Payer on Thu 9 Jan 14 at 09:35
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he replaced it with a new, I think it's a Megane (
>> some kind of Renault anyway ) estate which he's had since around 1998.
Must be a Goona. The first gen Megane estate was never imported to the UK. Mk2 Megane estates were sold here, but not introduced until about 2002/3.
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Ah yes Renault. Makers of the disposable car. Pity they miscalculated the design life...
Don't get many stories of modern post 2001 Renaults lasting for years do we?
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I have no idea what you're talking about.
(TIC obvs, but come on, no-one can expect any 2001 car to have lasted 20 years by now?)
Last edited by: Alanović on Thu 9 Jan 14 at 14:01
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How about a 2006 Laguna Estate 1.9 dci, 170,000 miles. Not religiously serviced to the manufactures schedule, no electrical problems though we did have a clutch at 130,000. Have had loads of Renaults in the family for the last 25+ years and had none of the fabled problems, what have we been doing wrong?
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>> How about a 2006 Laguna Estate 1.9 dci, 170,000 miles. Not religiously serviced to the
>> manufactures schedule, no electrical problems though we did have a clutch at 130,000. Have had
>> loads of Renaults in the family for the last 25+ years and had none of
>> the fabled problems, what have we been doing wrong?
>>
Buying them. :-)
There must be a reason why Renault's market share has collapsed from c 7% in the early 2000s to c 2% now...
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Renault had a severe dip in quality of build and components between about 2000 and 2005, from which I believe they've recovered. But mud sticks, and it's taking a long time to un-stick, not least because plenty of people are still driving those 2000-05 cars.
Agreed, there are some good ones from that period - but you have to find them.
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A friend top spec 1.2 Clio MK2b 16V on a 04 plate. My friend bought it at 40,000 miles for £3k from a friend when it was just 3 years old in 2007. She took it to 110,000 miles. In that time she had it serviced twice, replaced the break pads and I changed a couple of bulbs etc on it.
It basically wasn't serviced properly at all. She had several minor bumps in it including rolling it on inside going too fast on a country road.
The car is still in the same family and now has done 140,000 miles and apart from a new clutch it is still working! The mileage was mostly all motorway though.
Last edited by: RattleandSmoke on Fri 10 Jan 14 at 12:20
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Don't buy New Cars - Robin O'Reliant
